FE4: Pursuit and Critical Discussion

[ZethaPonderer]

Hi everyone (mostly fans of FE4). I'm new here and I would like to start it off with an interesting discussion with this game. Most notably on two specific skills: Pursuit and Critical.

Now I am aware that FE4 plays differently compared to most FE Games (except Gaiden). So, I am currently playing this game for the first time with caution in mind. So far, it's pretty fun though the RNG is somewhat pre-determined.

 

Now, since I've played most of the FE Games from 1-8 (except 4); I'm used to the double attack and critical mechanic that is prevalent in those games. But, FE4 turns them into skills so that one of your characters must have in order to do a double attack or a critical. So here's where this discussion gets fun and somewhat brain-teasing?

 

In terms of game balance, how would it affect FE4 if both Pursuit and Critical skills are reduced down to common skills that ALL units possess (including enemies)?

 

Why? To resemble it close to the double attack and critical mechanic in most entries of the series. Also, for funs, LOLZ, and Brain-Tease :P

 

I can think of a few reasons where this is a bad idea:

1. Pursuit Ring is useless.

2. The ability to gain the Critical skill with any weapon after using it to defeat 50 enemies is mitigated entirely.

 

Those are the only reasons I can think of, but I'm wondering if there are more drawbacks to it?

 

Anyway, what do you all think about it? Good idea? Bad? Cause this game has gotten me brain-teased with how different it plays compared to most entries of the series .

[Von Ithipathachai]

Oh, brother...

I would love to try an FE4 remake that does away with Pursuit (AKA Follow-Up, as it appears to have been localized in Heroes), among other things.  But the fact that they made the Follow-Up Ring Arden's unique Skill in Heroes worries me a lot that a potential FE4 Echoes will be another remake like Shadows the Valentia that keeps the gameplay true to the original and doesn't do enough to fix what made the original so annoying to play.  Which means they'll probably keep Follow-Up and Critical in and that upsets me.

[Tetragrammaton]

Please play FE4 Binary for Pursuit and Critical.

[Zasplach]

7 hours ago, ZethaPonderer said:

Hi everyone (mostly fans of FE4). I'm new here and I would like to start it off with an interesting discussion with this game. Most notably on two specific skills: Pursuit and Critical.

Now I am aware that FE4 plays differently compared to most FE Games (except Gaiden). So, I am currently playing this game for the first time with caution in mind. So far, it's pretty fun though the RNG is somewhat pre-determined.

 

Now, since I've played most of the FE Games from 1-8 (except 4); I'm used to the double attack and critical mechanic that is prevalent in those games. But, FE4 turns them into skills so that one of your characters must have in order to do a double attack or a critical. So here's where this discussion gets fun and somewhat brain-teasing?

 

In terms of game balance, how would it affect FE4 if both Pursuit and Critical skills are reduced down to common skills that ALL units possess (including enemies)?

 

Why? To resemble it close to the double attack and critical mechanic in most entries of the series. Also, for funs, LOLZ, and Brain-Tease :P

 

I can think of a few reasons where this is a bad idea:

1. Pursuit Ring is useless.

2. The ability to gain the Critical skill with any weapon after using it to defeat 50 enemies is mitigated entirely.

 

Those are the only reasons I can think of, but I'm wondering if there are more drawbacks to it?

 

Anyway, what do you all think about it? Good idea? Bad? Cause this game has gotten me brain-teased with how different it plays compared to most entries of the series .

First, the RNG is one-hundred percent predetermined, it's one long chain, so if you burn rn's you can get the results you desire.

I think if you want a more familiar FE experience Binary is probably a good option, but I'll talk about the skills.

Giving everyone pursuit with the current rule set, ie Attack speed (AS)= Speed-Weapon weight(WW), doesn't really help very many units; the AI is already really weighed down by mostly bad weapons or really low speeds on cavs that use swords and classes that can double you, like swordmasters, already have pursuit as a class skill, so I can't see it really helping anyone except maybe some late game bosses.  In terms of the first gen, pursuit would help Ethlyn, Noish, and Cuan, they are all mounts without it and pursuit would make them stronger, but most of your best first gen units: Sigurd, Finn, Lachesis, Fury already have pursuit.  And Lewyn doesn't really need pursuit.  Really the big change would be the viable pairings for the 2nd gen, it basically makes Lex, Jamke, Holyn, Dew, and Lewyn pairings even better and makes pretty standard pairings like Adean-Midir pretty bad. Pursuit for everyone helps Leif too I guess, makes his early game even easier.  

Critical, as it currently stands in Fe4 (Critical%=Skill), would really break the game if everyone had it.  Lots of characters get really high skill and the skill ring is a pretty early item, so yeah, crtitical with more standard FE rules or growths, would probably less game breaking, just more standard.  

I personally like the weird idiosyncrasies in FE4, I don't really find making everything the same or similar, even if it's good, that fun.  FE4 isn't a good first FE, but it's a fun juxtaposition to the other more standard games, not everybody likes it's foibles, but I do.  My advice would be try the standard rules for a first run, the game is pretty forgiving honestly and you can save after every turn even without an emulator and if you don't like it, but want to like it, play binary or some other balancing patch.  

[ZethaPonderer]

Well now. I didn't even know how different the mechanics behind the weapons really were in FE4 since most of them share the same weight e.g. Iron Axe and Steel Axe. So, thanks for the info there @Zasplach. And that Critical mechanic . Well to me this doesn't seem like idiosyncrasies, but more of Intelligent Systems innovating new ideas to make Fire Emblem fresh just like FE Gaiden. I just realized, both Gaiden and Geneology share some interesting similarities in a sense that both tried to bring innovations in the FE Franchise. Where one failed, the other succeeds (execution-wise), however I would wager that Gaiden had some great innovations for its time that paved the way for other Strategy RPGs. Whereas some of Geneology's innovations seems alienating and kind of a step back to the previous entries of the series. Doesn't matter though since FE4 seems pretty easy to play (if you know what you're doing).

 

Also, thanks for the recommendation @hanhnn. I'll give that a try once I'm done playing FE4 original. Just gotta get used to the Double and Critical being unique skills.

[Dandy Druid]

A part of me wants to say yes because it makes sense to do that. Characters should be able to double and have critical hits naturally.

But on the other hand, it's just another quirk of FE4: controversial, but part of the experience. To add to your list of what it may take away from the game:

3. Takes some of the strategy away from pairings. But then again, people can't deny Jamka x Edain no longer

4. Takes away the iconic line "The Power of Pursuit!". This event also characterizes Arden too, so it would be a loss for his character. Plus, it's meme material.

5. New skills would need to be developed for Noish and Lewyn (as well as the others with the critical skill). Lewyn doesn't need it as much, but Critical was one of Noish's very few redeeming factors.

[Flee Fleet!]

Personally, I'd like every unit to be able to double according to their speed only, and without the need of a specific skill. In such a case, the Pursuit skill should be a more "rarer" kind of skill that only few units have, and it allows those units to double attack in every battle. This also prevents the Pursuit Ring becoming useless.

 

As for Critical, it should be removed entirely or it allows a higher chance for units to perform a critical. 

[DarthMikey]

Honestly I like them both being there for FE4, and I think they should be maintained for an Echoes remake. I don't want them to be a regular thing in any given FE (and they're not, for good reason), but I like the additional strategy they provide for planning out pairings, and the fact that certain units are literally just incapable of double attacking is part of what gives the game its unique feel.

Imo, most units who don't have Pursuit in Gen 1 aren't even significantly worse than their counterparts; Lex is an MVP as long as he has Brave Axe, I think Noish is more useful than Alec, Quan has a fitting handicap considering his great stats and OP weapons, etc. The big exception to this is Arden, but he ought to be buffed outright in a remake just to give you an excuse to use him beyond memeing.

[Flee Fleet!]

3 hours ago, TheCosmicDude said:

The big exception to this is Arden, but he ought to be buffed outright in a remake just to give you an excuse to use him beyond memeing.

Besides for his awful movement and speed, he's not that bad. He's good enough as a defensive wall.  

[Jotari]

I'd be in the camp that it should be something everyone can do, but the speed requirement is pretty high (probably +5) and pursuit reduces it to +1. It's a solution that satisfies consistency with the rest of the series and stays true to Holy War's mechanics.

Edited January 1, 2018 by Jotari

[Quirino]

Actually I was thinking about this the other day, for a potential FE4 remake. Although I'm not fully against the idea, it would need some rebalancing. For example Brave Axe!Lex and Quan will need some serious nerfing if they get pursuit IMO. Like others have pointed out, it will also take some strategy away from pairings, because basically the best units make the best parents then. All in all, I feel like this would take away from the experience of FE4, so I'm leaning toward 'no' for the time being.

[ZethaPonderer]

@Jotari, That‘s a brilliant idea to work around on Pursuit. It will stay true to Fire Emblem’s double mechanics generally speaking and be a great compromise if IS plans for the FE4 remake. 

 

Speaking of remakes, hope the remake addresses the crypticness of the pairing system since if you were to play FE4 blind for your first time with no guide, you wouldn’t normally know this feature exists in the game and would most likely get substitutes instead. Unless you had the Japanese FE4 manual which might’ve explained it.

 

Good thing I’m aware now to who I want to pair with. So far, I’m digging Azel and Lachesis pair since it makes Delmud a unique unit with them Magic Swords despite his Magic Stat only being 15, and Nanna’s Magic to potentially grow more.

[Flee Fleet!]

2 hours ago, ZethaPonderer said:

you wouldn’t normally know this feature exists in the game and would most likely get substitutes instead

I sometimes think that's kind of the point, but I'm not exactly sure. Besides, I'm sure the fortune teller mechanic is enough for people to know the units can be paired.

[Dandy Druid]

15 hours ago, ZethaPonderer said:

Speaking of remakes, hope the remake addresses the crypticness of the pairing system since if you were to play FE4 blind for your first time with no guide, you wouldn’t normally know this feature exists in the game and would most likely get substitutes instead. Unless you had the Japanese FE4 manual which might’ve explained it.

I agree that it does need to be explained better, luckily the site here gives you a rough estimate for what the original Ol' Hubba means when you visit him.

I disagree with the fact that you'll get the substitutes. IMO, half the time it seems like you have to actively TRY to obtain/get them, as the real problem with the love system is that random people fall in love with each other. You could never place Lewyn next to Sylvia, but they'll still fall in love with each other before Gen 1 ends (unless you try to pair them with anyone else). Edain comes early enough to get all the men's attention. 

The only "easy" substitutes would be Asaello and Daisy, because Brighid comes late enough with low enough love bases (Tailtiu has a high base with Claude). Radney and Roddlebann are also "easy", but it involves not recruiting Ayra at all.