Is D&D evil?

[Time the Crestfallen]

20 minutes ago, Rezzy said:

If you want to see an RPG that actually is evil, look up FATAL.  On second thought, you probably shouldn't.

I don't know if I should be more ashamed that I instantly knew what you were talking about, or that I can actually name worse RPGs than FATAL.

Regardless, D&D is absolutely not evil, especially considering that many of the things that are 'evil' in-game are very explicitly called as such and are expected to be enemies of the player party. However, it should be noted that D&D isn't the end-be-all of table-top RPGs. GURPs comes to mind, but there are quite a few that don't really do supernatural stuff, such as Net Runner and Paranoia.

[Rezzy]

1 minute ago, Phillius the Crestfallen said:

I don't know if I should be more ashamed that I instantly knew what you were talking about, or that I can actually name worse RPGs than FATAL.

Regardless, D&D is absolutely not evil, especially considering that many of the things that are 'evil' in-game are very explicitly called as such and are expected to be enemies of the player party. However, it should be noted that D&D isn't the end-be-all of table-top RPGs. GURPs comes to mind, but there are quite a few that don't really do supernatural stuff, such as Net Runner and Paranoia.

I only learned about FATAL through morbid curiosity.

Isn't Paranoia where the whole point of the game is screwing over your team mates?

[Time the Crestfallen]

Just now, Rezzy said:

I only learned about FATAL through morbid curiosity.

Isn't Paranoia where the whole point of the game is screwing over your team mates?

Same 

That's the best summary of it, but the best short-hand description I can give would be Orwell's 1984 with a healthy mix of Red Scare. It's also a comedy game, so as long as you don't take it too seriously it's a great time.

Besides, you're just as likely to get yourself killed accidentally in a variety of amusing ways.

Trust the Computer.
The computer is your friend. Not trusting The Computer is treason. Treason is punishable by death.

[Rezzy]

5 minutes ago, Phillius the Crestfallen said:

Same 

That's the best summary of it, but the best short-hand description I can give would be Orwell's 1984 with a healthy mix of Red Scare. It's also a comedy game, so as long as you don't take it too seriously it's a great time.

Besides, you're just as likely to get yourself killed accidentally in a variety of amusing ways.

Trust the Computer.
The computer is your friend. Not trusting The Computer is treason. Treason is punishable by death.

There's an RPG channel on Youtube I really like who did a review on a Paranoia module once.

 

It's also a good channel to go to if you're just curious about RPGs in general.

[Dismissed]

Okay guys, we're getting off topic here. Personally, my opinion is that it's up to free will. Personally, I'm compelled to do the moral desicions, such as siding with King Server Balancer in AQW or sparing that Dark Elf priest in Skyrim. In the case that both choices are bad, I'd go with the lesser of two evils.

Just remember that when something depicts the supernatural, it is not automatically evil. I can cite three examples of such works labelled "evil" which were actually created by Christians. Gary Gygax has already been mentioned, so I'll cite two more. First, J. K. Rowling is a Protestant who donates to charity, and she is the author of the Harry Potter series. Another is cartoon creator Butch Hartman. His cartoons have stuff like fairies and ghosts, but he is also a Christian man who runs a non-profit organization that helps people.

Now people will complain that people of this or that denomination don't count, but unless that is truly proven, I'd plead innocent until proven guilty.

[Tryhard]

13 hours ago, ping said:

For example, the main religion in the world of the game I used to play knows twelve main god and a whole bunch of demigods, so that players have a good number of different clerics to choose amongst (and because interaction between the churches can be a nice hook for a campaign). In-universe, that pantheon is practically confirmed to be real gods and "good", so I can imagine that some religious folks find that even more disturbing than the existence of demons in these games (and other media of that genre).

I actually rarely have seen that mentioned - I've always seen the focus on the supposed satanic or demonic influences more so than any objection to the in-game gods and goddesses. Perhaps because the most prominent deities in them and their servants are clerics, paladins, etc. of good or at least not-evil gods.

That, and perhaps this was just me, but I heard very little in complaints from other popular games - Warhammer 40K, for example, strikes me as far more grittier and more abject in morality than your standard D&D game, yet I didn't hear the same objections to it compared to D&D or Harry Potter.

42 minutes ago, Purple Mage said:

Okay guys, we're getting off topic here. Personally, my opinion is that it's up to free will. Personally, I'm compelled to do the moral desicions, such as siding with King Server Balancer in AQW or sparing that Dark Elf priest in Skyrim. In the case that both choices are bad, I'd go with the lesser of two evils.

Just remember that when something depicts the supernatural, it is not automatically evil. I can cite three examples of such works labelled "evil" which were actually created by Christians. Gary Gygax has already been mentioned, so I'll cite two more. First, J. K. Rowling is a Protestant who donates to charity, and she is the author of the Harry Potter series. Another is cartoon creator Butch Hartman. His cartoons have stuff like fairies and ghosts, but he is also a Christian man who runs a non-profit organization that helps people.

Now people will complain that people of this or that denomination don't count, but unless that is truly proven, I'd plead innocent until proven guilty.

I mentioned Gary Gygax, but really I don't think that the affiliation of the creator should be so important, it was just to add another layer of the fact that the creator himself never intended it to be perceived that way, and yet it was criticised heavily by Christians that he also identified with.

Your first part kinda confused me though - do you mean there's something wrong with choosing the "evil" choice per se in these games? Or was that not what you intended? I do generally prefer to play a heroic type of character in games, but I don't really see anything wrong with make believing a more depraved character if it's known that it's simply fiction.

I suppose that also depends on your view on morals - one of the classic standard classes in D&D is the rogue, and you can be a "good" rogue (or thief as it used to be known). But would a character who was skilled at stealth and pilfering generally be a scrupulous one? While you could have a character that acts like a stereotypical version of Robin Hood and steals for a purpose other than self-enrichment, there could also be the view that stealing is inherently always wrong (although to reduce the Rogue to a concept of them 'needing' to steal is inaccurate, a lot at least are skilled enough to open locks and disarm traps, and this leads to questions about where they learned to do so).

I don't know about the Philippines, but I would say that at least in the US and other Western countries, D&D lost its "satantic reputation" some time ago. 

Edited December 29, 2017 by Tryhard

[ping]

2 hours ago, Tryhard said:

I actually rarely have seen that mentioned - I've always seen the focus on the supposed satanic or demonic influences more so than any objection to the in-game gods and goddesses. Perhaps because the most prominent deities in them and their servants are clerics, paladins, etc. of good or at least not-evil gods.

That's interesting, although I suppose it's easier to put (demons = bad) ^ (demons are part of DnD lore) --> (DnD is evil) on a flyer or in a Chick tract. Still, I would think that the positive portrayal of non-abramhamic, polytheistic religions could be seen as "worse" than negative portrayal of something evil.

[Moblin Major General]

3 hours ago, ping said:

Still, I would think that the positive portrayal of non-abramhamic, polytheistic religions could be seen as "worse" than negative portrayal of something evil.

Only certain far-right wing Muslims have a problem with positive portrayals of polytheism, if only because their way or the highway. Sure, Christians and Jews had to contend with polytheism throughout their history, but attempts were made to understand the culture they ended up assimilating. Islam made no such attempt, and given the importance of Medina in Muslim culture, I can see why.

[Dismissed]

3 hours ago, ping said:

That's interesting, although I suppose it's easier to put (demons = bad) ^ (demons are part of DnD lore) --> (DnD is evil) on a flyer or in a Chick tract. Still, I would think that the positive portrayal of non-abramhamic, polytheistic religions could be seen as "worse" than negative portrayal of something evil.

Percy Jackson is a popular series here, so polytheism isn't an issue due to a general understanding that it's just fiction.

6 hours ago, Tryhard said:

Your first part kinda confused me though - do you mean there's something wrong with choosing the "evil" choice per se in these games? Or was that not what you intended? I do generally prefer to play a heroic type of character in games, but I don't really see anything wrong with make believing a more depraved character if it's known that it's simply fiction.

I suppose that also depends on your view on morals - one of the classic standard classes in D&D is the rogue, and you can be a "good" rogue (or thief as it used to be known). But would a character who was skilled at stealth and pilfering generally be a scrupulous one? While you could have a character that acts like a stereotypical version of Robin Hood and steals for a purpose other than self-enrichment, there could also be the view that stealing is inherently always wrong (although to reduce the Rogue to a concept of them 'needing' to steal is inaccurate, a lot at least are skilled enough to open locks and disarm traps, and this leads to questions about where they learned to do so).

Oh yeah, this is true.

Personally, the closest thing to D&D I've played was Knights of Pen and Paper 2, which is available on Google Play in this country (unlike FE Heroes), which is generally a good sign. There have been no negative effects on me, except maybe the fact that it drains my phone battery a lot.

Another thing I avoid in games is Necromancy, and no, playing Zombies in PvZ Heroes (or playing PvZ in general) doesn't count. Even in most games, like Fire Emblem or Elder Scrolls, such arts are frowned upon in-universe. Also, I think this is one of the least political topics in Serious Discussion, because it's more of a moral issue.

[Lord Raven]

5 hours ago, Hylian Air Force said:

Only certain far-right wing Muslims have a problem with positive portrayals of polytheism, if only because their way or the highway. Sure, Christians and Jews had to contend with polytheism throughout their history, but attempts were made to understand the culture they ended up assimilating. Islam made no such attempt, and given the importance of Medina in Muslim culture, I can see why.

Indonesia and Malaysia are two examples of "attempts" that worked out.

India has a bunch of Hindus too, but both Muslims and Hindus are hostile towards one another there, so it's a really awful example and it's a mutual issue.

"Made no such attempt" is pretty inaccurate.

Edited December 29, 2017 by Lord Raven

[Moblin Major General]

1 hour ago, Lord Raven said:

Indonesia and Malaysia are two examples of "attempts" that worked out.

India has a bunch of Hindus too, but both Muslims and Hindus are hostile towards one another there, so it's a really awful example and it's a mutual issue.

"Made no such attempt" is pretty inaccurate.

I keep forgetting that Indonesia is predominantly Muslim, otherwise I would not have made such a broad generalization.

[SoulWeaver]

6 hours ago, Purple Mage said:

Another thing I avoid in games is Necromancy, and no, playing Zombies in PvZ Heroes (or playing PvZ in general) doesn't count. Even in most games, like Fire Emblem or Elder Scrolls, such arts are frowned upon in-universe. Also, I think this is one of the least political topics in Serious Discussion, because it's more of a moral issue.

I think Necromancy is a tricky subject, because it requires one to specify a couple things. For example, are the souls that go with those dead bodies still trapped within their mortal cages, or is it some weird puppet show where the Necromancer has to consciously move the corpses, either through his own mental fortitude or other methods that don't force the spirit to be locked back into its decayed form? If the former, then it's removal of agency as the souls of the departed have no choice, and cannot control their own bodies, and thus is most definitely morally wrong, while an argument can be made in favor of the latter option, though the only time I've seen such a depiction of Necromancy implemented is Forneus' original intent with the Death Mask concept.
Personally, I think it's an interesting concept with a lot of potential in games, but only if you understand that it isn't something one should even consider looking into in real life.

Also, I assume from this statement your Doomwood Rep isn't very high considering the whole area is built around the concept of a society of Undead and Necromancy.

[eclipse]

Is storytelling evil?

Because that's what I see DnD as.  You can sit back and listen, or take control of a character within the story.  I think it's a great outlet, as you can explore things that you otherwise can't do in RL (like, uh, emptying a bottle of whiskey into a pot that has boar stew simmering in it. . .yeah, I'm boring).

[Rezzy]

Side note: I met my spouse through my D&D group.

[Dismissed]

9 hours ago, Lord Raven said:

India has a bunch of Hindus too, but both Muslims and Hindus are hostile towards one another there, so it's a really awful example and it's a mutual issue.

And that's why Pakistan and Bangladesh broke off India in the first place.

[shadowofchaos]

On 12/28/2017 at 9:57 AM, Purple Mage said:

I've yet to see a Filipino who plays D&D.

*waves*

Hi!

Granted, I'm in the US now and I haven't been back in the Philippines since I was 9... but man, what the hell happened since I left if they think that?

As for the "is DND Evil" type deal... there was a scare in the US way back when.

Here's a good video that details why:

 

Edited December 30, 2017 by shadowofchaos

[Dismissed]

17 minutes ago, shadowofchaos said:

*waves*

Hi!

Granted, I'm in the US now and I haven't been back in the Philippines since I was 9... but man, what the hell happened since I left if they think that?

As for the "is DND Evil" type deal... there was a scare in the US way back when.

Here's a good video that details why:

 

Wait, you're a Filipino too? I thought I'd never see another Filipino on this site! (Well, I'm Chinese-Filipino, but that still counts.)

Thanks for the info, by the way. Also, the Philippines is a conservative country. (Not as much as its neighbors Malaysia and Indonesia. Good thing the government doesn't block fanfiction.net.) So, any occult imagery is obviously frowned upon.

[Captain Karnage]

On 12/28/2017 at 7:20 PM, Rezzy said:

If you want to see an RPG that actually is evil, look up FATAL.  On second thought, you probably shouldn't.

Ughh, I thought was going to be something satanic. That was not something I thought it was going to be.

_____

If you want to see something truly blasphemous look up the final boss of Shin Megami Tensei IV Apocalypse. 

[Flee Fleet!]

On 12/29/2017 at 6:20 AM, Rezzy said:

If you want to see an RPG that actually is evil, look up FATAL.  On second thought, you probably shouldn't.

I looked it up. I regret it.

 

I've never played D&D, ever, but considering that its a fantasy game and any evil demons or whatever are the enemies of the players, its definitely not evil.

[eclipse]

15 minutes ago, Flee Fleet! said:

I looked it up. I regret it.

 

I've never played D&D, ever, but considering that its a fantasy game and any evil demons or whatever are the enemies of the players, its definitely not evil.

Spoiler

The SMT series is. . .something else.  I would understand it if some Christian group or other protested the series based on what happens in-game, since you, uh, ally with demons, among other things.

But I'd also laugh if it was SMT IV, due to some spoiler-ish reasons.

Regardless, it's WAY worse than DnD.

 

[Tryhard]

10 minutes ago, eclipse said:

  Reveal hidden contents

The SMT series is. . .something else.  I would understand it if some Christian group or other protested the series based on what happens in-game, since you, uh, ally with demons, among other things.

But I'd also laugh if it was SMT IV, due to some spoiler-ish reasons.

Regardless, it's WAY worse than DnD.

 

 

One thing I thought was funny was seeing several Christian news or entertainment media organisations writing (not negatively) about SMT and Persona games. Apparently they don't seem to mind!

Edited December 30, 2017 by Tryhard

[Flee Fleet!]

3 hours ago, eclipse said:

  Hide contents

The SMT series is. . .something else.  I would understand it if some Christian group or other protested the series based on what happens in-game, since you, uh, ally with demons, among other things.

But I'd also laugh if it was SMT IV, due to some spoiler-ish reasons.

Regardless, it's WAY worse than DnD.

 

Spoiler

Welp, I never played SMT either, but in that case....then I guess some would find it evil.

 

But, you're its still a game where good vs evil right? Right?

 

 

 

[Sidereal Wraith]

No

[John Denver Fan]

Just because a game has demons/devils doesn't make it evil. So Dungeons & Dragons isn't evil is is just a misconception from way back in the day.

[Dismissed]

So I attempted to convince my cousins that it isn't evil. They responded by saying "but it's Satanic" which we all know now, is a complete Bolshevik response. People should take time to investigate and research before coming to conclusions, am I right?