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What are your thoughts on dragons and Manaketes in Fire Emblem?


Thane
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If you don't include Corrin/Kana and do include laguz, then playable manaketes exist in only seven out of 12 games in the series. Of those seven, five feature a young girl as the only or most prominent playable manakete in the game, leaving the Tellius laguz as the only exception. That's a very high proportion of the playable dragons! Additionally, I can't speak for everyone, but I personally don't like the way those little girl manaketes are typically characterised; Nowi is the only one I find tolerable.

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2 hours ago, Dark Holy Elf said:

IS has made plenty of main villains who are at least partly sympathetic: Zephiel, Lyon, Sephiran for instance. So it's not like they're unwilling to make 'em, at least historically. They've had a pretty long run without 'em now though, unless you find Anankos sympathetic which I definitely do not.

To be honest, I’ve meant villains in recent games, because like you said, we had long run without sympathetic villains. The last time was Radiant Dawn. I mean, I guess Camus and Katarina sorta count as sympathetic villains, but they aren’t the “main” villains like Lyon and Arvis. 

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41 minutes ago, Dark Holy Elf said:

Additionally, I can't speak for everyone, but I personally don't like the way those little girl manaketes are typically characterised; Nowi is the only one I find tolerable.

I'm confused.

Tiki, Fae and Myrrh are all characterized as "normal" little girls who can nuke things.

Nowi's portrayed as a flirtatious little girl who doesn't like being called a little girl, even though she looks(Aside from the fact that she walks around in what's basically lingerie) and acts(Aside from the things she does that little kids definitely shouldn't do) like a kid.

So if you could elaborate here, I'd appreciate it. Because from my perspective, the things that separate Nowi from the others make her a VERY uncomfortable character to look at and listen to.

Interesting that I'm basically having to say the same thing twice about an obscure-ish character that I don't think I've ever talked about in the span of about an hour.

Edited by Slumber
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I like dragons, and they're iconic of Fire Emblem so I support their inclusion. Manakete degeneration is a core part of their identity, but we do need to shake up their roll in the story. I'd like to see more variety, so they're not all so monolithic. It shouldn't be the evil clan of dragons vs the good clan, each individual should have their own motives and behavior.

Tellius has probably done the best with dragons, providing a unique role in the setting and having varied personalities in between. I also thought the divine dragons in SoV were well done. Rather than a simple "the main antagonist is an evil/crazy dragon", the game treated Duma and Mila as flawed individuals who were reaching the end of their life spans.

So where should we go from here? The mythology of Prometheus gives me an idea for story setting:

Spoiler

"Long ago, the dragons ruled the sky realm and looked down on the earth where lesser beings made out their lives. Humanity was born and prospered in this land until a new race arose from the dark to make war with them. The dragons watched as human kingdom after kingdom fell to the monsters, but the dragons did nothing because the things happening on earth did not affect them. One dragon took pity on humanity, having witnessed their heroic struggle and the solidarity they showed each other in dark times. This dragon decended to earth and taught the humans the magic artes of dragons and together they fought back the dark. Unable to return to the sky realm for the crime of teaching the dragons' knowledge, the dragon stayed with the humans and bred with them. This new line of half-manaketes became the new royal family of the human kingdom. The resulting society now has a mix of humans and dragon-blooded decedents of the first dragon"

The story could then follow that the monsters and full blooded dragons get involved again in some way, but it could just as easily be a political story with the added lore and presence manaketes. I just want a manakete lord that the story doesn't treat as a throw-away inclusion, okay!

 

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I'm not really sick of facing dragons as final bosses or act as main villains all the time because it is a troupe that Fire Emblem has gotten itself into. To get sick of this is like to get sick of Bowser kidnapping Peach all the time.

Also, not every single FE game has you to face a dragon at the end like FE5 for example. So they can do something different time and time. Its just that its not so often that they do so.

But utility on the other hand...unless its archeanea, I almost hardly use them. Fae is downright terrible unless you use the glitch, Nowi comes in a game where its redundant to have a dragon unit and the same goes for Tiki. The only good manaketes that I used are Nils and Ninian but that's only because they are dancers and that they can do stuff like Fila's Might.

So if anything, FE needs to or atleast should try to make manaketes more worthwhile in the player's side.

 

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I'm fine with dragons as a concept, but I feel that if they're going to keep using them they either need to do a better job with the roles they're using them for or utilize them in different ways.

In terms of the villains, I don't want another Anankos situation. There it felt like the villain was thrown in as a common cliche to poorly wrap up the plot and get everyone together, but it came at the cost of more interesting themes that were present and that hurt Fates' narrative as a whole. If they're going to be there as a plot important element, I'd like them to have a proper place in the story. Make them have a presence in lore and history, give them a stronger role that isn't sitting their asses on a chair (even if a reason is given), make them more then just 'I'm the harbinger of death, I'm going to wreck some shit', and just in general make them more interesting villains. Some of the previous dragons have gotten parts of this right (ex. Medeus and Duma have pretty good lore behind them) but I don't think any have had the complete package quite yet. If they hit all of those marks, I'd be fine with another dragon, but otherwise I'd rather them take a different route then stick to a clutch that has gotten increasingly stale and became a detriment to FE's stories.

As for them as characters as a whole, at the risk of repeating what everyone has said, I feel the Dragon Laguz were among the best handled dragons in the series. All of them were varied in design, characterization, and motivation, which made them less monotonous as a group since all of them stood out from each other. Additionally, even though some opposed each other like most of the other games, it wasn't out of some generic 'good vs. evil', but rather a clash of differing ideals and beliefs that had them go after different goals, which made their roles in the plot more flexible. as a result, they managed to feel more unique as characters rather then filling a similar niche to what has come before, and I feel that direction is a better one to take if they're going to keep dragons as a staple of the series.

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*Triggers my Echo passive*

By humanizing dragons, making them a more normal part of the living world as opposed to a nearly dead ancient relic, Tellius with the Dragon Laguz is the best handled circumstance of dragons so far. Dheginsea as Black Dragon King of Goldoa is better written than any Divine or Shadow Dragon, and he's the latter in color, but the former in nature being a hero of Ashera, he straddles archetypal lines. Ena, Nasir, and Kurthnaga are all solidly done characters as well, Almedha even. Only Gareth is lacking.

Archanea's dragonology was the original thus excusable. Jugdral's integration of Archanea's dragons is neat and I'm perfectly fine with it. FE6 has the excuse of being back to Archanean simplicity, and is arguably better or worse than Archanea in dragonology. FE7 I think is the first game that poorly handled and didn't need dragons. FE8 has them as an afterthought, and they weren't at all necessary.

Awakening is excusable as the kitchen sink going out of business tribute that it is. Having Dragon Veins, and Dawn and Dusk and even Silent Dragons in the lore of Fates isn't a problem for having mythos- its nice to know the gods Nohr and Hoshido worship. What is inexcusable is how Anankos ruins a potentially very human plot with braindead manipulation. SoV then turns actual gods into Archanean dragons, and handles the matter more poorly than Jugdral did. Why did Mila and Duma have to become dragons?

 

FE can ditch the dragons completely or relegate them to a small role in the plot and world. Even if they took a more nuanced and fresh approach to dragonkind, I wouldn't want them to do it right now, I'd rather IS show it can write a plot without dragons at all for the moment. Because Fire Emblem isn't all about dragons, nor should it be.

 

From a gameplay perspective, we need to bring back FE3 styled dragonstones if we wanted to play as dragonkind for more unit variety. Or normal classes modified to adjust for the biological advantage of dragonkind. Fates also had a decent idea in the Beastrune vs. Beaststone/+.

 

On 1/1/2018 at 12:34 AM, Harvey said:

To get sick of this is like to get sick of Bowser kidnapping Peach all the time.

There is a difference. Mario's plots are at best mostly lighthearted cartoonish jokes, and one of the few times it goes more straight-faced and even slightly dark- Super Paper Mario- Peach isn't kidnapped at all. Its okay for Mario to reuse Peach kidnapping because Mario games make no pretensions of being about the plot.

FE wants to be taken seriously and puts on airs of grandeur, greatness and ambitious, but in overusing dragons, its lands face first and mouth wide open into "typical cliched JRPG plot" guano at times. To think on Fates for a moment, the trailers pre-release focused on showing off the characters and plot. Partly this is because FE gameplay isn't the most interesting to watch, partly out of a desire to actually try to sell people the plot as serious, dramatic, and meaningful. And guess what? Fates isn't any of those things according to general consensus despite it saying it is, so people have the right to criticize the hypocrite.

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I like dragons, but I don't like Fire Emblem dragons. Manaketes and Laguz are far too human-like to be interesting. You could turn them into humans and I would barely notice the difference. I prefer dragons like the dragons in Skyrim. They're smart (Paarthurnax is more or less a dragon philosopher), they actually have their own language (but can learn the human tongue if they care to) and "culture", but they're also still animal-like in other things (dominance, hunting for food (and that includes humans)). And they're pretty fucking cool and strong. And no human form, thank god. I hate that trope. (The only time I like that trope is in LiEat, but that game actually does new, interesting things with dragons so it's okay)

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I like manaketes/dragons, and I think they're too associated with Fire Emblem already to dismiss them, but I think they could be used in much better ways. I don't like how dragons are basically treated as Deus Exs for the stories, instead of being given more depth and exposition. Manaketes are also seldom important to the plot or do anything important in the story, so they feel like token loli teammates most of the time.

I think the Tellius games managed to portray dragons better, although Goldoa is basically the fantastic counterpart to the UN and hardly appears or makes a difference in conflicts save for very specific situations.

Also, I don't mind dragons as villains. What I mind is having a Deus Ex as a villain. If they write a good dragon villain and actually expand upon the dragons' lore, why not? Maybe I am too much into Drakengard, but I'd love a FE game where a human and a dragon join forces and become the main villains of the game. I'd like Manaketes to be more important too, and not just be.... there occupying bench space on the party. Aside from living really long and turning into a dragon, they're not really important at all and don't do much, and others are perfectly fine to have them tag along.

Edited by Rapier
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22 hours ago, Efina Leonhart said:

I like dragons, but I don't like Fire Emblem dragons. Manaketes and Laguz are far too human-like to be interesting. You could turn them into humans and I would barely notice the difference. I prefer dragons like the dragons in Skyrim. They're smart (Paarthurnax is more or less a dragon philosopher), they actually have their own language (but can learn the human tongue if they care to) and "culture", but they're also still animal-like in other things (dominance, hunting for food (and that includes humans)). And they're pretty fucking cool and strong. And no human form, thank god. I hate that trope. (The only time I like that trope is in LiEat, but that game actually does new, interesting things with dragons so it's okay)

Although it would be uncharacteristic of Fire Emblem (a series that has avoided talking animals), I wouldn't mind getting dragons that are always in dragon form and sentient.

One of my favorite dragons in fiction is Smaug from the hobbit. He has human intelligence and talks but more than that, his personality reflects what he is. He's arrogant, greedy, cruel and boastful. He talks himself up because he KNOWS he's a force of nature and that nothing can compare itself to him, because he's a dragon. His attitude towards the other intelligent races is like how a predator sees prey. He is evil, certainly, but it's more animalistic than mere misanthropy or worse, madness.

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17 minutes ago, NekoKnight said:

One of my favorite dragons in fiction is Smaug from the hobbit. He has human intelligence and talks but more than that, his personality reflects what he is. He's arrogant, greedy, cruel and boastful. He talks himself up because he KNOWS he's a force of nature and that nothing can compare itself to him, because he's a dragon. His attitude towards the other intelligent races is like how a predator sees prey. He is evil, certainly, but it's more animalistic than mere misanthropy or worse, madness.

Yes, exactly. I thought about Smaug, but didn't want to use him as an example, because we don't see any other dragons in the series. Plus, I don't remember much of the Tolkien dragon lore. I wasn't sure if he was a typical dragon.

It's that aspect that makes the difference between human and dragon that FE is missing.

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Shouldn't be able to kill dragons like Anankos with a melee weapon and a melee move...

Actually I don't think you should be allowed to kill Dragon as in Manaketes with melee opponents either. Dragon Breath should exterminate every living thing without a high amount of Res. That's just the way I see Dragons. Also there should be bows and canons that are effective against Dragons more than there should be Wyrmslayers or Divine Melee Weapons.

Also I'm not really sure how Manakete, Laguz, and Taguel transformations work, but they should be allowed to naturally transform into their more bestial forms, but I think their populations are just so low that they can't fight humans. Maybe a disease effects them or something because otherwise I see no reason for them to just dominate the world lol. 

As for real Dragons, Wyverns and Beasts, I think they should not make them the mindless or purely evil forces that they have showcased them as so far. I'm thinking of Noseferatu Zod from Berserk here, and dragons like those from Game of Thrones, they could make them intelligent like that. 

Edited by Logos
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Eh, I like FE dragons. You definitely can't outright remove them, since they're such a staple of Fire Emblem. I mean, they're basically in it's DNA. And while the dragons degenerating and becoming manaketes is definitely redundant in Fire Emblem, it's fairly uncommon in most fantasy. To me, the Skyrim dragons are the traditional fantasy dragons and I've always felt FE's manaketes were kind of a nice break from that.

I like the dragon laguz in Tellius, but I felt like they were a lot more human than previous incarnations. I mean, they were basically just an isolationist country, and there wasn't any specific lore involving them that didn't also involve the rest of the laguz (not that I remember anyway). I liked when we only got one manakete per game because it added to the mystery (although we need more Bantus). What I'd really like to see is a playable character manakete that's more like FE3/12 Xane. He knows all the history because he lived it, provides exposition where needed, and (unlike xane) kicks serious ass as a dragon during combat.

Actually, now that I think about it a Xane deuteragonist would be so radical, with increased characterization, more plot relevance, potential love interests.... I'm going to stop now.

Now as far as villains, somebody mentioned a dragon-human teamup to take over the world. Love that. I'm a huge fan of the Big Bad Duumvirate trope and it would be fun to watch (AND MAYBE PROVIDE PARALLELISM WITH THAT XANE DEUTERGONIST I'M GONNA STOP). Seriously though, watching that unfold as one inevitably betrays or double-crosses the other would still be more interesting than the traditional cult working to revive the evil dragon for the lulz.

Honestly though, I really wish Medeus had been handled better, because he had a lot of potential to be a really interesting villain. His whole backstory is pretty cool and they could have played a lot more with his desire to protect his fellow manaketes from enslavement, called him out on his hypocrisy during the time of Anri, added to his pain at watching his fellow Earth Dragons turn feral, expanded upon his anger with the Divine Dragons, clarified the whole "Shadow Dragon" thing.... Instead, we get "SO LONG AS EVIL LURKS WITHIN THE HEARTS OF MAN WE SHALL RISE FROM THE DEPTHS OF HELL." Ah well, another remake....

 

EDIT: As somebody mentioned above, I also like the SoV dragons, flawed beings doing their best to deal with the people who revere them as gods... Although they were actually just gods in Gaiden... And are much more similar to Ashera as far as personality and attitudes in SoV... So maybe still not the best way to handle dragons/manaketes? Or maybe the perfect way to handle them? ?????

Edited by Solvaij
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1 hour ago, Solvaij said:

(AND MAYBE PROVIDE PARALLELISM WITH THAT XANE DEUTERGONIST I'M GONNA STOP)

Don't. It would be more interesting than Xane.

A lot has been mentioned, much that I agree with, but I'll say some stuff here.

For me, Fates is kind of my "IT'S TIME TO STOP" when it comes to throwing dragons in. I've ranted as to why elsewhere, but Anankos is the perfect case of doing nothing right overall, and dragons kind of need to be scaled back in future if this is the extent we're going to get.

If Laguz are as good as I hear here, maybe that's more of the direction to take, but the one thing I'll say is that dragons/Manaketes need to be treated differently next time regardless of direction. SoV has caused some frustration for some people because of the confirmation of Mila and Duma as dragons, but it made sense with those two anyway when you also consider how Naga in particular has worship heaped on her for honestly less involvement, at least at the same points in time based on the timeline for those parts of the series. They were still kind of there in that game without much more in terms of their direct involvement and that's worth a complaint though. We'll have to see how FE Switch is handled, but hopefully whatever dragons they are aren't too close a retread.

As for the lolification, I don't think removing loliketes will save us from the loli. I don't think I have anything clever to comment beyond that.

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Manaketes in this series are kind of synonymous with Fire Emblem, they aren't going away. They definitely need some writing variety though.

Almost every dragon so far is either the designated true evil mastermind final boss or a innocent and sheltered creature that happens to look like a small girl or is Corrin. Those final bosses (Grima, especially) hardly ever get many lines beyond "I'm evil and all powerful, prepare to die" before getting stabbed, having virtually no character because half the time they don't show up until over halfway through the game.

It's actually very possible to have an irredeemable, unsympathetic villain that's well written and entertaining (i.e classic Disney villains, Persona's Adachi, Blazblue's Terumi) but the evil dragons are never that. It's too hard to give a giant monster lizard an entertaining and yet easily opposable personality when they don't even have the muscle structure to form facial expressions.

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On ‎2018‎-‎01‎-‎05 at 5:40 AM, Wait, What? said:

Manaketes in this series are kind of synonymous with Fire Emblem, they aren't going away. They definitely need some writing variety though.

This. Dragons are great, but we need them to have more variety.

We have had a lot of Evil Dragon Final Bosses. Individually, some of them have been great. Medeus is a proper villain, with an interesting backstory. He's also calculating, not mad and senile. Duma was kind of the first dragon boss that was, "Not actually evil; he just really, REALLY needs to be put down or the continent will be destroyed by his madness", so he was unique in that regard in Gaiden. When Shadows of Valentia came out, they expanded on this in a way I (mostly) enjoyed. Loptyr is interesting in that he was the first of these that needed a human host to return to power. The problem comes when you look at all of them together and realize just how many there have been (and how bad some of them have been: Anankos, random Fire Dragon, Grima). You then realize, there have really only been 3 non-dragon final boss villains: Ashnard, the monster from Sacred Stones, and Ashera. 

Similarly, the only male playable dragons (excluding Corrin from this list due to being a customizable unit) have been Bantu (who is a rubbish unit), Kurthnaga, Gareth, and Nasir. Three of them are from the Tellius games, and two of them are fire dragons. The playable female dragons that haven't looked and acted like 9-year-old girls? Ena, Nagi, and Awakening Tiki. That is it. Two of them are divine dragons, and one of them is a fire dragon (albeit a pink one). 

Also, for the past two games, the types of dragonstones have been dragonstone, and dragonstone+. That would be fine if the variety of the dragon types was determined by the unit, but there was no variety there either. 

I hope to see more variety in the playable manaketes: more stones, and more variance in the characters. For villains, I personally would prefer the next final boss villain be human (we've only ever had Ashnard for that). But, if it absolutely must be a dragon, then it should at least be unique from the previous ones in a way that that doesn't just make it even worse.

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2 hours ago, vanguard333 said:

I hope to see more variety in the playable manaketes: more stones, and more variance in the characters. For villains, I personally would prefer the next final boss villain be human (we've only ever had Ashnard for that).

Well there is Veld, but of course he is so weak as a villain (just a Manfroy goon with Stone and a few Deadlords) he might as well count as much as the Fire Dragon.

2 hours ago, vanguard333 said:

Similarly, the only male playable dragons (excluding Corrin from this list due to being a customizable unit) have been Bantu (who is a rubbish unit), Kurthnaga, Gareth, and Nasir. Three of them are from the Tellius games, and two of them are fire dragons. The playable female dragons that haven't looked and acted like 9-year-old girls? Ena, Nagi, and Awakening Tiki. That is it. Two of them are divine dragons, and one of them is a fire dragon (albeit a pink one). 

To add insult to injury of the four dudes, only Bantu has any real availability. Kurthnaga gets a mere five battles where he is hardly doing anything because he's Est-like, Nasir and Gareth in RD get two really short ones (albeit White Pool is cool). PoR Nasir is nearly as bad and you have to win a luck contest clad in ebony to unlock. Tellius gives good reasons why the Dragon Laguz aren't playable sooner, but it is still a shame (Ena and Kurthnaga would be a little better if they joined in 4-4).

Then we get male Manaketes who taunt us with not being playable as Manaketes: Xane, Gotoh, and Nils. Lastly we have the two second appearance of Myrrh's adoptive father Morva, whom I throw in just because of how poorly he was done.

Edited by Interdimensional Observer
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24 minutes ago, Interdimensional Observer said:

Well there is Veld, but of course he is so weak as a villain (just a Manfroy goon with Stone and a few Deadlords) he might as well count as much as the Fire Dragon.

Huh; I guess I stand sort-of corrected. Just to be clear, is Veld the final boss of the game that he's in? I'm asking because I specifically said final-boss villains.

 

26 minutes ago, Interdimensional Observer said:

To add insult to injury of the four dudes, only Bantu has any real availability. Kurthnaga gets a mere five battles where he is hardly doing anything because he's Est-like, Nasir and Gareth in RD get two really short ones (albeit White Pool is cool). PoR Nasir is nearly as bad and you have to win a luck contest clad in ebony to unlock. Tellius gives good reasons why the Dragon Laguz aren't playable sooner, but it is still a shame (Ena and Kurthnaga would be a little better if they joined in 4-4).

Yeah; I agree. To add even more insult to injury, by the time you get Gareth and Nasir, you already have the endgame team you spent some time creating, and it's not like you just get Gareth and Nasir in addition to the characters you already brought; you have to replace people with them. They're also painfully slow. 
 

30 minutes ago, Interdimensional Observer said:

Then we get male Manaketes who taunt us with not being playable as Manaketes: Xane, Gotoh, and Nils. Lastly we have the two second appearance of Myrrh's adoptive father Morva, whom I throw in just because of how poorly he was done.

True; very true. There are good reasons why the first three you listed aren't playable as manaketes, but it is still disappointing. To add insult to injury of those guys (well; really to add further insult to Bantu), Bantu's firestone lasts 30 uses, and you can't get any more of them in Shadow Dragon. Once it's gone, he is just as playable as a manakete as they are.

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5 minutes ago, vanguard333 said:

Huh; I guess I stand sort-of corrected. Just to be clear, is Veld the final boss of the game that he's in? I'm asking because I specifically said final-boss villains.

 

Yeah; I agree. To add even more insult to injury, by the time you get Gareth and Nasir, you already have the endgame team you spent some time creating, and it's not like you just get Gareth and Nasir in addition to the characters you already brought; you have to replace people with them. They're also painfully slow. 
 

True; very true. There are good reasons why the first three you listed aren't playable as manaketes, but it is still disappointing. To add insult to injury of those guys (well; really to add further insult to Bantu), Bantu's firestone lasts 30 uses, and you can't get any more of them in Shadow Dragon. Once it's gone, he is just as playable as a manakete as they are.

Yes.

Gareth in particular has the issue of being physically oriented at a point where everything attacks with magic. 

I'd say the real problem with Bantu (and SD Manaketes in general) is that their stones deplete every time they see combat regardless of whether they could counter or not.

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On 12/31/2017 at 5:07 PM, Anacybele said:

I don't like manaketes. They're boring and the playable ones are almost always little girls. They need more variety.

Now the dragon laguz in Tellius are super cool. Their designs are more varied, and their dragon forms are even way cooler looking than manaketes imo. Kurthnaga is my favorite. The only thing is that some of them, most specifically Gareth, got really snubbed of development and actual character. I think Gareth only has like three total lines out of both Tellius games! It doesn't help though, that the dragon laguz always join the playable party late.

I think you hate manaketes for their representatives instead of their species. Otherwise, dragon laguz are just a renamed iteration of manaketes (awkward gameplay not factored) with another new set of lore benefitted by PoR's writing. I also don't really understand your "varied" argument; I remember that their dragon forms lacked variety amongst their members as most of them came off as recolors of the same model. The Mystery Archanea games (both the original and remakes) had a higher variety of dragon shapes than just "recolored bipedal dragon" amongst the different tribes. Bipedal divine dragon, quadruped fire and mage dragons, noodly water/ice dragons, and then wyverns.

That being said, I agree that manaketes lack any diversity in characters outside the dragon laguz. Outside the lolis and only counting proven dragon shifters, we only have Bantu, the grown-up Tiki, Ninian, Nils (both non-gameplay wise outside of Heroes), and debatably Corrin whom seems to be implied as just a human with dragon blood. However, I think manaketes are just outright too much of an FE staple to just be rid of. Sure, they should take a break from having the gods/big bad be a dragon, but I wouldn't mind some worlds where dragon people just live with humans; an arguable change from the godly/rare/last dragon stories, I think.

Edited by NoirCore
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