Which Child Units would win? Awakening, Fates, or Genealogy/Thracia?

[indigoasis]

So i saw a post that pit the awakening children versus the fates children. Here's the link to that: 

So, I was wondering, if the Jugdral kids (or rather the second generation) were tossed into the mix, who would win? Also, the factors and rules taken into consideration in Firewing270's post will apply here, so read his before you delve into this one. Credit for the original idea of the child units against each other goes to him as far as I'm aware.

(Genealogy is also a special case where there are substitute units, so keep those in mind if you'd like. Otherwise, what are your thoughts?)

[Slumber]

Genealogy. 

They're all literally fueled by dragon blood and are damn near individually as strong as an entire army. 

Lore-wise, a single person with holy blood is a MAJOR game-changer on the battlefield. While the Fates and Awakening children are strong, very few of them are anywhere near what the Genealogy kids are. The best you get are immature manaketes. 

If we're going by pure stats, then the Awakening kids, due to the stupidly high caps of that game, with Limit Breaker putting caps over 50.

Edited January 8, 2018 by Slumber

[eclipse]

The weapons of Jugdral would be enough to win.  The stat boosts they give are absolutely crazy.  And that's not even factoring in what holy blood does.

[Florete]

Well, the proposed rules put stats and skills as the determining factors. Lore is meaningless, so Genealogy kids are completely screwed with their sub-30 all-around caps against the 3DS' duo's stat inflation*. Genealogy kids also have fewer skills to use.

*It's actually not as bad in Fates but there's still a pretty notable stat disparity.

Going by lore I'd say Awakening > Jugdral > Fates. Awakening kids have fought through and survived their world completely going to shit, which shows both physical and mental aptitude. Genealogy kids basically just have holy blood, but it's not really easy to say exactly how strong that makes them compared to people from other worlds, and they don't have the kind of experience the Awakening kids do. It's still more than Fates kids have, though, which is basically just fucking around in a deep realm for years without their parents.

[Slumber]

1 hour ago, Florete said:

Going by lore I'd say Awakening > Jugdral > Fates. Awakening kids have fought through and survived their world completely going to shit, which shows both physical and mental aptitude. Genealogy kids basically just have holy blood, but it's not really easy to say exactly how strong that makes them compared to people from other worlds, and they don't have the kind of experience the Awakening kids do. It's still more than Fates kids have, though, which is basically just fucking around in a deep realm for years without their parents.

The thing you have to consider here is that Jugdral and Awakening are literally in the same world. 

There's no wondering how the normal people in Jugdral compare to normal people in Ylisse, because normal people are the same in both. It's the same world. 

When this factors in, and you remember how HUGE of a deal it is to have Holy Blood in Jugdral, it's effectively like a dozen Grimas running around. Or even worse, since Julia was running around with Naga's blood flowing through her veins. There's absolutely nothing any of the Awakening kids could do to Julia. The Awakening kids living through Grima's terror means nothing when somebody is running around with the power of Naga at their finger tips. The same Naga(Well, not literally the same, since there is a new Naga by the time of Awakening) that the heroes, including the children, needed help from just to get to Grima. As well as potentially 20 more people with at least minor dragon blood. 

To top this off, while the Genealogy kids didn't go through Grima and the Grimleal, they were raised since birth to fight what was effectively the predecessor to both of them, and they were constantly on the run. Inversely, while the Awakening kids went through arguably more hardship, they're not ever put on a higher pedestal than their parents, who, aside from Chrom, Lissa, Robin, Nowi and Panne, are just normal people. If anything, the game makes it clear that the kids are just as good as their parents, but not necessarily better. 

Fates is an X-factor here, since it is a different world, but I don't think there's really anything in the franchise to say "Oh, the average person from X world is stronger than the average person from Y world." 

Edited January 8, 2018 by Slumber

[Florete]

2 minutes ago, Slumber said:

The thing you have to consider here is that Jugdral and Awakening are literally in the same world. 

There's no wondering how the normal people in Jugdral compare to normal people in Ylisse, because normal people are the same in both. It's the same world. 

When this factors in, and you remember how HUGE of a deal it is to have Holy Blood in Jugdral, it's effectively like a dozen Grimas running around. Or even worse, since Julia was running around with Naga's blood flowing through her veins. There's absolutely nothing any of the Awakening kids could do to Julia. The Awakening kids living through Grima's terror means nothing when somebody is running around with the power of Naga at their finger tips. The same Naga(Well, not literally the same, since there is a new Naga by the time of Awakening) that the heroes, including the children, needed help from just to get to Grimas. As well as potentially 11 more people with at least minor dragon blood. 

To top this off, while the Genealogy kids didn't go through Grima and the Grimleal, they were raised since birth to fight what was effectively the predecessor to both of them, and they were constantly on the run. Inversely, while the Awakening kids went through arguably more hardship, they're not ever put on a higher pedestal than their parents, who, aside from Chrom, Lissa, Robin, Nowi and Panne, are just normal people. If anything, the game makes it clear that the kids are just as good as their parents, but not necessarily better. 

Fates is an X-factor here, since it is a different world, but I don't think there's really anything in the franchise to say "Oh, the average person from X world is stronger than the average person from Y world." 

Whatever makes Jugdral and Awakening the same world I don't think is enough to connect the two this closely.

I know the following may be putting too much stock into gameplay over lore, but I've always questioned the actual power of holy blood when these characters can still get stabbed to death by a random soldier walking around. If they are "near individually as strong as an entire army," why is this the case? Why does it take an entire army of them to fend off regular human enemies? I can only separate lore and game mechanics so much. (Also keep in mind I'm going off old memories of Genealogy since I last played it in like 2011 or something)

Also, just sayin, but if Julia has a dragon's (Naga) blood in her, Lucina's Falchion is a thing.

[Slumber]

44 minutes ago, Florete said:

Whatever makes Jugdral and Awakening the same world I don't think is enough to connect the two this closely.

I know the following may be putting too much stock into gameplay over lore, but I've always questioned the actual power of holy blood when these characters can still get stabbed to death by a random soldier walking around. If they are "near individually as strong as an entire army," why is this the case? Why does it take an entire army of them to fend off regular human enemies? I can only separate lore and game mechanics so much. (Also keep in mind I'm going off old memories of Genealogy since I last played it in like 2011 or something)

Also, just sayin, but if Julia has a dragon's (Naga) blood in her, Lucina's Falchion is a thing.

Yeah, somebody with holy blood can get ganked by a bunch of no-names, but compared to even Awakening, which has the highest stat caps, a Holy Weapon wielding Holy Blood child is going to last longer than an Awakening child against fodder. The stat boosts given by holy weapons is something only other holy weapon wielders will be able to reasonably deal with. Strong fodder in Awakening will be able to do damage to the kid units. On top of this, holy blood increases the unit's growths substantially(And even more substantially if the blood is major or if there are two Holy bloods) and increases their weapon ranks, which is one of the ways the game tries to establish through game play that normal people can't compete with holy blood descendents. 

And while Lucina does have a Falchion, it's hard to tell if it'd work against holy blood. It is effectively dragon blood, but holy blood descendents aren't really human/dragon hybrids. Wyrm Slayer weapons didn't exist in Jugdral. They just had anti-flying weapons. If you want to make that argument, fine(I feel like if taking down Galle and Loptyr was that simple, Naga just would have handed out a bunch of Falchions instead of all of Dragonkind needing to make blood bonds with humans). But there is one Lucina with a Falchion, and there are 22 kids with holy blood. 

EDIT: Actually, the OP included Thracia, so including Fergus, Mareeta and Saias, there are 25 kids with holy blood that are playable in Jugdral. 

Edited January 8, 2018 by Slumber

[Armagon]

Lore-wise, it's Genealogy>Awakening>Fates

However, if we look at characters individually

Seigbert, Forrest, Shiro, Kiragi, Kana, and Shigure actually have a high chance of beating the Geneaolgy kids, and that's because of Dragon Veins. All Holy Blood does is make the user superhuman. Dragon Veins, on the other hand, have been shown to do some real crazy shit. One effect of Dragon Vein is nullifying magic. Any Genealogy kid that relies on magic gets left defenseless, unless they have an alternative way of fighting. Another effect of Dragon Vein is dropping acid rain on the enemy. Even Holy Blood users wouldn't be able to walk that off. Then there's Dragon Veins being able to terraform the land itself. Dragon Veins don't make their users physically stronger but it lets them win the battle through other means.

The downside is that Dragon Veins can't be used whenever so the Genealogy kids have the advantage there. Still, the Dragon Vein-bearing Fates kids have the biggest chance of winning due to them being able to Dragon Vein's unpredictable effects.

The Awakening kids, except Lucina and Owain, are actually the most normal of the bunch. They've been through a lot of bullshit, yes, but they don't have any special powers that the Genealogy and some of the Fates kids have. The exceptions to this would be Lucina and Owain, who i theorize actually do have Holy Blood but that's a theory i won't get into right now.

Gameplay-wise, Awakening and Fates easily stomp Genealogy kids, with Awakening beating Fates thanks to stat inflation and Limit Break.

[Jave]

To be honest, I’m not really sure. The ridiculous stat boosts do make the FE4 kids look deadly, but I don’t think that, lore-wise, those stat boosts are any different than the more powerful weapons the Awakening and Fates kids can weild. I’ll say that if Seliph and Lucina (with Tyrfing and Falchion) were to duel, they’d have a pretty even match. 

I also don’t think just having holy blood means much. The possibility exists that even the Awakening characters might have it if they’re in the same world as Jugdral and genetics got carried over. I can say that maybe the Genealogy kids that do wield legendary weapons are a step above the Awakening kids, but the rest? I’ll say they’re pretty much equal to the Awakening kids, or even worse in some cases. 

[Slumber]

On 1/8/2018 at 2:09 PM, Jave said:

To be honest, I’m not really sure. The ridiculous stat boosts do make the FE4 kids look deadly, but I don’t think that, lore-wise, those stat boosts are any different than the more powerful weapons the Awakening and Fates kids can weild. I’ll say that if Seliph and Lucina (with Tyrfing and Falchion) were to duel, they’d have a pretty even match. 

I also don’t think just having holy blood means much. The possibility exists that even the Awakening characters might have it if they’re in the same world as Jugdral and genetics got carried over. I can say that maybe the Genealogy kids that do wield legendary weapons are a step above the Awakening kids, but the rest? I’ll say they’re pretty much equal to the Awakening kids, or even worse in some cases. 

Where are you getting this "It doesn't mean much"? You're severely downplaying the whole meaning of holy blood in the context in Genealogy.

Holy blood exists because the dragons that were allied with humans needed to make a pact with humans to put a stop to a human who made a pact with Loptyr, an earth dragon who wanted to subjugate humanity. Normal humans could do NOTHING to Galle, which is why, short of actually coming down to the human plane and fighting Galle and his empire themselves, the dragons needed to empower humans in order for anyone to stand a chance against him. In the context of the story, holy blood wielders are superhuman, and in the context of gamplay, holy blood impacts growth rates and weapon proficiency(Which is locked in FE4).

The holy weapons unlock the ultimate potential of holy blood descendants, but that's only accessible to people with major holy blood. The game makes sure to tell us that even people incapable of wielding holy weapons, people with minor holy blood, are still head and shoulder above normal people.

Seliph with Tyrfing isn't even the strongest child with a holy weapon. Julia with the Book of Naga is effectively invincible in that world. While other holy weapons increase stats by +30 total, with Tyrfing giving +40, Julia's increases her stats by +80 total.

Plus, of the children, Altenna has the Gae Bolg, Seliph has the Tyrfing, Julia has the Book of Naga Larcei and potentially Ulster can both use the Balmung(Not in the game, but a proper trading system would have allowed Shannon to hand it off to either of them), Ced canonically has Holsety, Sharlot has Valkyrie, Aless has the Mystletainn, and Ichival has the Yewfelle. And Saias would theoretically have access to Falaflame(His father has major Fala blood and none of his half-siblings have it, so he would likely inherit it), but his class doesn't use fire magic.

That's 8 holy weapons the genealogy kids theoretically have access to, one of them being head and shoulders above Seliph.

And while you could make the argument of "Oh, maybe Holy Blood got passed down after 3000 years", there's nothing to back this up, and none of the Awakening kids have visible marks of holy blood. You can argue that since the heroes of Awakening can wield the weapons that are named after the holy weapons in Awakening, that they must have holy blood, but this means that EVERY person in Awakening has every major holy blood, which I am 99% sure is impossible with the rules established in Genealogy. It's far more likely that the developers of Awakening didn't want to give the players a bunch of weapons that couldn't be used.

The games also take place 150 years after the dragons bonded with the humans, and holy blood is still incredibly limited to a very small amount.

Again, Lucina, Owain, Morgan, Nah and Yarne aside, the kids of Awakening are 100% normal people(Obviously you can shove pairings with Male Robin and Chrom in here, but for the sake of simplicity, I'm just going to limit it to their canon children). And while Yarne's not a "normal human", the Taguel aren't really elevated to the level Manaketes are. Noire isn't some ridiculous superhuman in the context of her game, she's just the daughter of a crazy person. They grew up in a tough environment, but so did the Genealogy kids, on top of each of them having dragon blood flowing through their veins.

Edited January 10, 2018 by Slumber

[Jave]

55 minutes ago, Slumber said:

(Snip)

I am aware of all that. The point I'm making, and my basis for my opinion, is that I don't believe that the massive stat boosts in FE4 necessarily reflect how powerful the characters are in regards to lore. I do agree that they're powerful, and I do think that Julia herself is the most powerful out of all of them (Heck, I think she might as well be the most powerful FE character ever), I just don't believe they're as powerful as the game makes them to be. A lot of times this is done for Gameplay reasons (like in FE4) or for making the characters just look cool (like the Greil Mercs in FE10, who I think are pretty much on par with the Shepherds, but that's another discussion for another thread).

I will respond to this, though.

55 minutes ago, Slumber said:

Ichival has the Yewfelle.

Well, yeah, I agree there. A bow that can wield itself is OP as fuck.

[Interdimensional Observer]

15 minutes ago, Jave said:

(Heck, I think she might as well be the most powerful FE character ever)

Well if Robin was able to make the powers of the Fell Dragon obey them (sounds like a nice fanfict), they could be a close contender. Julia's Tellusian descendant Micaiah could rival Grannvale's princess, since she can funnel Yune half a creation goddess right through her- even if she never actually gets to use this in gameplay.

 

Also, while this really doesn't count, worse come to worse, the Jugdralian children can just summon their armies. Most if not all with the right pairings are royalty or nobility. Sure Lucina and Owain could invoke Ylisse, and Siegbert and Shiro could bring Nohr and Hoshido to bear, being faced with the entire might of Jugdral save Miletos (Arion would probably send Altena Thracia's support), Jugdral would possibly win in a war of the worlds.

 

1 hour ago, Slumber said:

And while you could make the argument of "Oh, maybe Holy Blood got passed down after 3000 years", there's nothing to back this up, and none of the Awakening kids have visible marks of holy blood. You can argue that since the heroes of Awakening can wield the weapons that are named after the holy weapons in Awakening, that they must have holy blood, but this means that EVERY person in Awakening has every major holy blood, which I am 99% sure is impossible with the rules established in Genealogy. It's far more likely that the developers of Awakening didn't want to give the players a bunch of weapons that couldn't be used.

 

Wasn't it said in some developer interview that eventually the Holy Blood would weaken and so would the weapons? Besides being more balanced in gameplay, the reduced stat boosts and might of the Holy Blood weapons in Awakening, plus the fact anyone can use them, would suggest that by the time of Awakening, nothing really remained of the Miracle of Darna's power, the Holy Blood itself should be virtually extinct.

 

7 hours ago, Armagon said:

Seigbert, Forrest, Shiro, Kiragi, Kana, and Shigure actually have a high chance of beating the Geneaolgy kids, and that's because of Dragon Veins. All Holy Blood does is make the user superhuman. Dragon Veins, on the other hand, have been shown to do some real crazy shit. One effect of Dragon Vein is nullifying magic. Any Genealogy kid that relies on magic gets left defenseless, unless they have an alternative way of fighting. Another effect of Dragon Vein is dropping acid rain on the enemy. Even Holy Blood users wouldn't be able to walk that off. Then there's Dragon Veins being able to terraform the land itself. Dragon Veins don't make their users physically stronger but it lets them win the battle through other means.

The downside is that Dragon Veins can't be used whenever so the Genealogy kids have the advantage there. Still, the Dragon Vein-bearing Fates kids have the biggest chance of winning due to them being able to Dragon Vein's unpredictable effects.

But do lands other than Fateslandia have DVs? In a hypothetical war that would matter, plus what would stop the dragon blooded kids of Jugdral from learning how to use them in not-Fateslandia? 

You do have a point, but quite understandably we don't have enough information as to how they'd play save as homefield advantage in a crossover battle.

I wish Odin had the power to use DVs in Fates (the only issue is Laslow could be sired by Chrom, so him not having DV power but Odin getting it would be ruling out a pairing option for Olivia- a big no), since limiting access to royals and their kids is a little unfair regarding unit choice.

[Jave]

2 minutes ago, Interdimensional Observer said:

Also, while this really doesn't count, worse come to worse, the Jugdralian children can just summon their armies. Most if not all with the right pairings are royalty or nobility. Sure Lucina and Owain could invoke Ylisse, and Siegbert and Shiro could bring Nohr and Hoshido to bear, being faced with the entire might of Jugdral save Miletos (Arion would probably send Altena Thracia's support), Jugdral would possibly win in a war of the worlds.
 

See, now THIS I can agree with, and it would be pretty amazing to watch to boot. I'd totally take Fire Emblem: War of the Worlds

2 minutes ago, Interdimensional Observer said:

Wasn't it said in some developer interview that eventually the Holy Blood would weaken and so would the weapons? Besides being more balanced in gameplay, the reduced stat boosts and might of the Holy Blood weapons in Awakening, plus the fact anyone can use them, would suggest that by the time of Awakening, nothing really remained of the Miracle of Darna's power, the Holy Blood itself should be virtually extinct.

Was it? I mean, it's been heavily discussed among the fans as possible theories, but I don't think I've ever seen a dev interview mentioning it (Very likely I'm misremembering or I'm unaware).

[Slumber]

53 minutes ago, Jave said:

I am aware of all that. The point I'm making, and my basis for my opinion, is that I don't believe that the massive stat boosts in FE4 necessarily reflect how powerful the characters are in regards to lore. I do agree that they're powerful, and I do think that Julia herself is the most powerful out of all of them (Heck, I think she might as well be the most powerful FE character ever), I just don't believe they're as powerful as the game makes them to be. A lot of times this is done for Gameplay reasons (like in FE4) or for making the characters just look cool (like the Greil Mercs in FE10, who I think are pretty much on par with the Shepherds, but that's another discussion for another thread).

I will respond to this, though.

Well, yeah, I agree there. A bow that can wield itself is OP as fuck.

There is something to be said about story and gameplay segregation. Obviously, the holy blood descendants aren't nearly as strong in gameplay as they are in the lore(Up until they get their holy weapons, at least), but the game does go pretty far in gameplay to show that yeah, if you have even minor blood, you're ridiculous compared to the average Joe next to you. I think the extra weapon ranks are supposed to show that they're superhumanly strong, since again, weapon ranks are locked to class, which means that there's generally a human limit to how good you can be with a weapon, and people with holy blood break those limits. Even if you're a Swordmaster and dedicate your entire existence to leaning the sword, anybody with Baldo, Hezul or Odo holy blood will either easily match you or surpass you.

If they were to truly represent holy blood in gameplay, there wouldn't be a game. As much shit as Fire Emblem 4 gets for balance, imagine how much it would get if one low level holy blood dude/dudette could solo any map without a boss that also has holy blood, while a sub run would be nearly impossible without CONSTANTLY relying on Seliph, Amid, Linda, Iucharba/Iuchar, Shannon and Leif. It already gets shit for non-holy blood units not being good enough, especially if they don't have a horse.

I'd take that argument for Greil vs. Shepherds. The way the games present the two armies is vastly different. FE10 Greil Mercs being able to stop conflicts just by being there vs. the Shepherds, who have a guy who forgets to bring his weapon to a fight and a dude that nobody knows exists as two staple members... I shouldn't get into it. You're right, it might be something for a different topic.

And dammit, you know what I mean. I still have a bad habit mixing up "Faval" and "Ichival" when Faval's proper name is Febail. I've only just gotten out of the habit of not mixing up Sety/Holsety/Ced.

Edited January 8, 2018 by Slumber

[Dandy Druid]

 It's hard to say, since the mechanics of Genealogy differ greatly from the other 2 games, especially considering the skill system. It grinded to hell and back, the 3DS kids can proc some sort of skill every chance they get. Plus, they already have Pursuit and Critical by nature. If we're not including subs (who would get molly whopped), the holy kids will definitely put up a good fight. It's basically a battle of OP weapons vs. higher stat caps. However, the holy weapons can raise some stats to be higher than the 3DS kids' stats, so they have that going for them. A lot of the Genealogy kids will fall in battle, because the majority of those that don't have a holy weapons will just get overpowered. Fates kids also have a (kind of a meh) forge system, so a well made forged item can make them stronger than an Awakening child. Also, 3DS kids have more class change options, so there's more pairings that work for them as opposed to the Genealogy kids. Ayra and Sylvia's kids work with anyone really, but Tiltyu's kids only work well with 4 fathers.

Also, Fates kids have Dragon Veins, which means they can plant traps or make battle conditions more in their favor. Genealogy kids include Lene, and she's the only refresher child unit in the series, and she can refresh 4 units per turn, which means that the Genealogy kids can hit hard more than once per turn.

If there's a personality battle, Awakening have the advantage. They've seen some shit, and you can see how this affected their personalities as well. Fates kids do have some personality, although a few of them suffer from being one-note and worse, just a copy of another character. I think there's one copycat that was done better than the original (Rhajat) but that's just me. A lot of Genealogy kids barely have a personality, so they lose easily. Only a select few were characterized well (Seliph, Leaf, Altenna, Julia, Shanan, Ares, Lene, Patty, Tine), but just a few. Even so, their lack of lines due to tech restraints at the time can't compare to the really fleshed out personalities of some great 3DS kids, like Lucina, Shiro, Siegbert, Forrest, etc.

9 hours ago, Armagon said:

Seigbert, Forrest, Shiro, Kiragi, Kana, and Shigure actually have a high chance of beating the Geneaolgy kids, and that's because of Dragon Veins. All Holy Blood does is make the user superhuman. Dragon Veins, on the other hand, have been shown to do some real crazy shit. One effect of Dragon Vein is nullifying magic. Any Genealogy kid that relies on magic gets left defenseless, unless they have an alternative way of fighting. Another effect of Dragon Vein is dropping acid rain on the enemy. Even Holy Blood users wouldn't be able to walk that off. Then there's Dragon Veins being able to terraform the land itself. Dragon Veins don't make their users physically stronger but it lets them win the battle through other means.

The downside is that Dragon Veins can't be used whenever so the Genealogy kids have the advantage there. Still, the Dragon Vein-bearing Fates kids have the biggest chance of winning due to them being able to Dragon Vein's unpredictable effects.

The nullifying magic thing would be a blow (in the small chance that it's the effect of the dragon vein), because Holsety and Narga get cancelled out. However, there's still the Tyrfing, Mysteltainn, Balmung, Gae Bolg, and Ichival. If Lene is still around you can get another round of these things twice in one turn. Even so, a couple of the magic kids have access to swords, so only 4 out of the 20 something kids are null. And if they take terraform damage instead, the kids also have a Reserve staff to heal everyone up and a Valkyrie staff to resurrect someone. The dragon veins will inconvenience them, but it won't get them obliterated.

Awakening kids will be the weakest, because they don't have some of the advantages that the other two groups haves. They're the smallest bunch, no Dragon Veins, and only 1 legendary weapon. It's not looking great for them.

[Armagon]

2 hours ago, Interdimensional Observer said:

But do lands other than Fateslandia have DVs?

That's a good question. We do know that Anankos terraformed the future Awakening's world to make graves for the Fates kids but that's likely because Anankos is a God. I doubt any of the human Dragon Vein users can pull off such a feat. 

So assuming only Fateslandia has DVs, if the battle takes place there, then the Fates kids win. If it doesn't, they lose.

2 hours ago, Interdimensional Observer said:

plus what would stop the dragon blooded kids of Jugdral from learning how to use them in not-Fateslandia? 

I think Dragon Veins and Holy Blood are two different kinds of power. That said, and this ties into my theory that the Brand and Holy Blood are connected, i do think that the Jugdral kids may be able to pull off those supermoves that Alm and Celica can.

I suppose i should explain my theory so people know what i'm talking about.

Spoiler

In Awakening, Lucina mentions how simply being part of the Exalted bloodline isn't enough to wield Falchion. This reminds me of how only those with Major Holy Blood can use the Holy Weapons. No one knows what determines whether you get Minor or Major Holy Blood and i think that's what's happening with the Exalted bloodline as well. Only those with Major Naga Blood can use the Falchion. This doesn't apply to Marth though, as none of this would've happened until the First Exalt preformed the Awakening.

In Echoes, both Alm and Celica have a Brand and their ultimate Arts (Scendscale and Raganrok Omega respectively) involve the use of their Brands. If the Valentian Brands are the same as the Exalted Brands and both Brands are actually Holy Blood, then the Jugdral kids, the ones with Major Holy Blood anyway, might be able to pull of similar supermoves. Lucina as well.

The biggest thing that supports my theory is that their are Jugdral Holy Blood characters with the Brand. Deidre, Julius, Galzus and Mareeta all have one. It wouldn't surprise me if people like Seliph had one somewhere as well.

This is all just me theorizing. I could be 100% wrong.

 

31 minutes ago, Dandy Druid said:

The nullifying magic thing would be a blow (in the small chance that it's the effect of the dragon vein), because Holsety and Narga get cancelled out. However, there's still the Tyrfing, Mysteltainn, Balmung, Gae Bolg, and Ichival. If Lene is still around you can get another round of these things twice in one turn. Even so, a couple of the magic kids have access to swords, so only 4 out of the 20 something kids are null. And if they take terraform damage instead, the kids also have a Reserve staff to heal everyone up and a Valkyrie staff to resurrect someone. The dragon veins will inconvenience them, but it won't get them obliterated.

That's true, the Jugdral kids do have ways to counter Dragon Veins. I do think that some effects would hurt more than others and they overall would still lose to it though. 

Does anyone have a full list of all known DV effects? It would be nice to see and if the Jugdral kids might have any counters to each of them.

[thecrimsonflash]

38 minutes ago, Armagon said:

 

  Hide contents

In Awakening, Lucina mentions how simply being part of the Exalted bloodline isn't enough to wield Falchion. This reminds me of how only those with Major Holy Blood can use the Holy Weapons. 

 

You seem to be omitting the second requirement to wield falchion, a penis. It appears in her sibling support to be more of a worthiness thing, than anything else, the brand is meaningless save for proof of lineage as owain cannot wield falchion same as lissa.

though bearing in mind those old requirements that brings up some rather amusing thoughts for everyone's favorite waifu.

Cynthia does not exist.

[Interdimensional Observer]

1 hour ago, Armagon said:

Does anyone have a full list of all known DV effects? It would be nice to see and if the Jugdral kids might have any counters to each of them.

Let me think:

Spoiler

Let me think: 

Altering the physical landscape (Chapter 3, Chapter 4, punji trap removal on BR and Rev Mokushu, wall alterations in CQ Jinya and Mokushu)

Producing healing areas (Chapter 1, Chapter 2, Fort Jinya Rev & BR, BR Izumo)

Turning healing-defense areas into lowered evade and more damage taken (Ryoma 2 CQ)

Breaking a vast number of pots with a mini earthquake. (Ryoma 1 BR)

Burning forests (Siegbert, Arete 2 Rev)

Drying bodies of water (C6, Siegbert, Ryoma and Xander Rev, C26 and 27 Rev)

Adding water to areas (Kana's)

Making ice barriers (C28 CQ)

Making greatly HP reducing lightning (Camilla 1 BR)

HP crippling acid rain (Fort Dragonfall CQ)

Enfeebling the enemy's stats (Wolfskin BR)

Either turning the landscape to lava covered damage tiles with reduced movement, or building a bridge across lava (the lava chapter in BR)

Turning areas where units are promoted into areas where they are unpromoted and vice versa (Anthony battle)

Replicating everyone in a distant location (that one place in Valla on CQ and Rev)

Manipulating wind/creating windstorms/altering the air (Hinoka 2 CQ, the ship battle where Reina joins in BR, Hans BR, Fuga's CQ and Rev location)

Causing ocean waters to recede (C10 CQ)

Clearing poison marsh (Rhajat, Fort Dragonfall BR)

Spawning vast numbers of Faceless in poison marsh (Leo BR)

Moving floating platforms (those two Rev chapters)

Breaking locks (Rev first Valla and Sumeragi's)

Freezing water (Ice Tribe Village, Opera House BR)

Draining land of energy?/discoloring it (Percy's)

Silencing magic users (Velouria)

Rending all enemies immobile (the Eternal Stairway)

Undesertifiying desert (Shiro, Wind Tribe Village)

Making enemy weapons erode to nothing (Iago's second BR battle)

Alleyways of explosives (Camilla Camilla Camilla)

Causing earthquakes inside castles (Benny and Charlotte fight BR)

Altering flame patterns (Ryoma's Rev)

Raising paths out the ice (Flora & Camilla on Rev)

Hopefully that is all. Sorry my chapter labeling is a little crude, it was a chore enough gathering these.

 

1 hour ago, Armagon said:

The biggest thing that supports my theory is that their are Jugdral Holy Blood characters with the Brand. Deidre, Julius, Galzus and Mareeta all have one. It wouldn't surprise me if people like Seliph had one somewhere as well.

 

All Majors are supposed to have them I think, and they don't necessarily appear right away, since a delay is how Agustria got itself stuck into a sticky situation where the Major Blood possessors were a junior branch of the Hezul lineage to a Minor/bloodless senior line. Although I must ask just how old that daughter or granddaughter (whatever it is) of Hezul was when she was married, since if the marriage was consummated before it appeared, that could be 16-18 years if IS wanted to yield to modern sexual consent sensibilities. Pretty darn long.

However the official artwork, original, TCG, and Treasure alike, don't show any marks, not even on Mareeta or Galzus or Julia or Deidre. Julius alone might have a visible one on his forehead (and ironically Jamke of the bloodless kingdom always has a bindi (little dot some from India wear on their forehead)-esque mark). I'm surprised none have them on their hands (although many wear gloves). Not even the Crusaders themselves in the one great Treasure image of them have visible Brands. But presumably they do, we just need to wait for Jugdralian swimsuit season to see them (may it never come for love of tastefulness!).

 

3 hours ago, Slumber said:

I'd take that argument for Greil vs. Shepherds. The way the games present the two armies is vastly different. FE10 Greil Mercs being able to stop conflicts just by being there vs. the Shepherds, who have a guy who forgets to bring his weapon to a fight and a dude that nobody knows exists as two staple members... I shouldn't get into it. You're right, it might be something for a different topic.

And dammit, you know what I mean. I still have a bad habit mixing up "Faval" and "Ichival" when Faval's proper name is Febail. I've only just gotten out of the habit of not mixing up Sety/Holsety/Ced.

I too would be interested in that Greil Mercenaries vs. Shepherds topic, but I'm not going to start a topic just for it, someone else can do that if they wish.

The Greil Mercenaries are much tighter as a group, we know who belongs and who doesn't. Who exactly classifies as a Shepherd? Everyone up to C3 obviously, and maybe Maribelle and Ricken. But Cordelia and Lon'qu probably aren't, and Panne and Nowi aren't either. Unless the Shepherds have open enrollment and Anna really counts as one. But then I raise you a Marcia and a goddamn master of the sword and descendant of a White Lion Hero Stefan, since they both join the Mercs before PoR C18 when the nature of Ike's group changes to a liberation army. In RD, I can declare Haar instead.

Also, while the GMs are strong, you might be overestimating them slightly. 3-3 River Crossing as I mentioned in another topic has the GMs only in a limited role, smashing a supply camp that is relatively undefended. In 3-P and 3-1, they're likewise doing smaller tasks and not fighting whole battles- they take ballistae and some other units while Beasts do the rest, and in 3-1 they do a covert job. The GMs are the Marines of Tellius, give them a special assignment and they'll win, but they can't fight an entire war by themselves. 

Concerning Defends in Tellius, the first in PoR at the GMs' home is perhaps the most extreme case of their power shown. At Gebal Castle, the game makes it out as they were on the verge of defeat until the Beasts arrived just in time. 3-5 in RD is less justifiable, but still finds some in that it was only a minority of troops that attacked since most obeyed Zelgius's ceasefire. In 3-7, they're a decoy. In 3-8 they fight a token force. In 3-10 they have Crimea's help fighting only Valtome's personal troops since Zelgius curtails the rest. PoR 17 and perhaps the battle where they first find Elincia push the GMs to the utmost limits of their power levels, the epic closing to Part 2 RD aside. Part 4- everyone in Tellius who survived the judgement and isn't Branded is implicitly a super warrior by this point with the exception of the Convoy quartet (and Almedha?- but she's a dragon, she is strong by nature).

The Shepherds- what do they do by themselves as an elite group? Very little I think. Most of Awakening, everything post C6 or 7 I think has an invisible army of NPCs along them the whole time. Ike gets one at C18 in PoR and the Laguz Alliance is always present in Part 3. The difference is that we have a much longer time of just GMs in PoR, and RD P3 makes it pretty clear when the LA is working directly alongside the GMs, and when they are elsewhere fighting or retreating or staying out of things. I don't mean to discredit the Shepherds, I just don't think we can judge them so easily.

As for personalities. Remember the GMs has a gullible hopeless canonically romantic in Gatrie. And Rhys who can be a little fainthearted and woozy at the sight of some things. I'd criticize Mia since I find her one note, but then again she is good with the sword which matters in this situation.

 

As for the name mixup, well old habits die hard. I think Ced can be pronounced the same as Seti/Sety due to the malleability of English, but the proof will be in 4 Remake.

Edited January 9, 2018 by Interdimensional Observer

[FootwaySublong]

"We have an army."

"We have a Ced."

[goldenscarletangel,kaya]

Fates because they can become stronger in the actual game And I have half of them not including Nohr.

they have custom hairs and everything.

[goldenscarletangel,kaya]

On 1/8/2018 at 4:48 PM, Interdimensional Observer said:

Well if Robin was able to make the powers of the Fell Dragon obey them (sounds like a nice fanfict), they could be a close contender. Julia's Tellusian descendant Micaiah could rival Grannvale's princess, since she can funnel Yune half a creation goddess right through her- even if she never actually gets to use this in gameplay.

 

Also, while this really doesn't count, worse come to worse, the Jugdralian children can just summon their armies. Most if not all with the right pairings are royalty or nobility. Sure Lucina and Owain could invoke Ylisse, and Siegbert and Shiro could bring Nohr and Hoshido to bear, being faced with the entire might of Jugdral save Miletos (Arion would probably send Altena Thracia's support), Jugdral would possibly win in a war of the worlds.

 

Wasn't it said in some developer interview that eventually the Holy Blood would weaken and so would the weapons? Besides being more balanced in gameplay, the reduced stat boosts and might of the Holy Blood weapons in Awakening, plus the fact anyone can use them, would suggest that by the time of Awakening, nothing really remained of the Miracle of Darna's power, the Holy Blood itself should be virtually extinct.

 

But do lands other than Fateslandia have DVs? In a hypothetical war that would matter, plus what would stop the dragon blooded kids of Jugdral from learning how to use them in not-Fateslandia? 

You do have a point, but quite understandably we don't have enough information as to how they'd play save as homefield advantage in a crossover battle.

I wish Odin had the power to use DVs in Fates (the only issue is Laslow could be sired by Chrom, so him not having DV power but Odin getting it would be ruling out a pairing option for Olivia- a big no), since limiting access to royals and their kids is a little unfair regarding unit choice.

Yes they do he has a point there

[Jotari]

On 1/8/2018 at 1:42 PM, Florete said:

Well, the proposed rules put stats and skills as the determining factors. Lore is meaningless, so Genealogy kids are completely screwed with their sub-30 all-around caps against the 3DS' duo's stat inflation*. Genealogy kids also have fewer skills to use.

*It's actually not as bad in Fates but there's still a pretty notable stat disparity.

Going by lore I'd say Awakening > Jugdral > Fates. Awakening kids have fought through and survived their world completely going to shit, which shows both physical and mental aptitude. Genealogy kids basically just have holy blood, but it's not really easy to say exactly how strong that makes them compared to people from other worlds, and they don't have the kind of experience the Awakening kids do. It's still more than Fates kids have, though, which is basically just fucking around in a deep realm for years without their parents.

The Awakening kids might have gone through more than any one else in the story (and lived), but I don't think it's accurate to say the Genealogy kids have no experience. They were also hunted and hungry for large portions of their life. Awakening still comes out on top, but I think they are comparable when it comes to experience.

On 1/8/2018 at 3:35 PM, Florete said:

Whatever makes Jugdral and Awakening the same world I don't think is enough to connect the two this closely.

I know the following may be putting too much stock into gameplay over lore, but I've always questioned the actual power of holy blood when these characters can still get stabbed to death by a random soldier walking around. If they are "near individually as strong as an entire army," why is this the case? Why does it take an entire army of them to fend off regular human enemies? I can only separate lore and game mechanics so much. (Also keep in mind I'm going off old memories of Genealogy since I last played it in like 2011 or something)

Also, just sayin, but if Julia has a dragon's (Naga) blood in her, Lucina's Falchion is a thing.

Julia doesn't have a weakness to dragon slaying weapons. That's only a Julius thing, per Heroes (he's weak to Dragon Slaying weapon in that game even though he doesn't have a breath weapon, Julia is not). Even if you discount Heroes, there's basically nothing to imply any of the Holy Blood characters are weak to dragon slaying weapons. Hell Lucina herself has Holy Blood and she's not weak to her own Falchion.

On 1/9/2018 at 7:13 AM, Jave said:

I am aware of all that. The point I'm making, and my basis for my opinion, is that I don't believe that the massive stat boosts in FE4 necessarily reflect how powerful the characters are in regards to lore. I do agree that they're powerful, and I do think that Julia herself is the most powerful out of all of them (Heck, I think she might as well be the most powerful FE character ever), I just don't believe they're as powerful as the game makes them to be. A lot of times this is done for Gameplay reasons (like in FE4) or for making the characters just look cool (like the Greil Mercs in FE10, who I think are pretty much on par with the Shepherds, but that's another discussion for another thread).

I will respond to this, though.

Well, yeah, I agree there. A bow that can wield itself is OP as fuck.

It's not just gameplay that suggest Holy Blood characters are OP. The game's story directly supports the idea with Seliph (or was it Leif?) saying that everyone who doesn't have Holy Blood should probably be benched for the final chapter.

 

And in addition to what everyone else has said, I'd like to point out that Genealogy and Fates have the ability to revive a party member (or even multiple in Genealogy's case, it the battle takes place on a Genealogy map). That's a pretty big advantage as it essentially gives them two Ceds or Kanas.

Edited May 16, 2018 by Jotari