(SOV Story Spoilers) In my opinion, Alm doesn't undermine any theme of Echoes to me.

[Seazas]

I just want a discussion so why not?

I see this point quite a bit, but the things people criticize about Echoes story regarding themes is "commoners can do it too but Alm's a prince" or "Alm doesn't match Duma" or something like that. 

From what I gathered the actual theme early on is "all lives matter and that anyone can be a hero", Random villagers helping Alm's cause (Tobin literally becoming a famous general with a castle despite being a nobody, Same for Gray but without the castle), and Alm having to work his way to even get to the position of his princely title supports this. Alm remains the most farmboy king ever, he's the only king you'll ever see plowing the fields. It took years of training and teaching by Mycen for Alm to get his skill in battle. He wasn't handed stuff automatically, he had to prove his skills. That's what truly convinced Clive to begin with and proved that he was truly Mycen's grandson. 

Clive exists to give insight that he can't relate to commoners despite being the most understanding, Some of Gray's dialogue about him assuming knights are snobs and the way Lukas acts slowly convincing him they're a minority, also Python in his and Clive's support. Despite it being DLC it was made with the story in mind so it counts. 

Alm being a noble and a commoner is perfect, since he's the one preaching that nobles and commoners both matter. Then it leads up to the point that man must unite together and that they can stand without a god. Which brings an excellent foil to Celica and her upbringings. 

Then there's the other theme. Alm shares Duma's ideals to a T as well so it doesn't throw Celica off. Alm wanted humanity to stand strong without depending on gods and that's exactly what Duma wanted. Duma proves to be an alright guy so making Alm ultra aggressive is unnecessary.

This actually makes the plot make sense now and what they were aiming for. Now that makes the only true flaw of the plot is the random scene of Nuibaba's sprouting from the earth hands. 

[Dark Holy Elf]

I disagree.

An ending where Grey and Tobin become generals or whatever does not impress me, especially since they got there... basically for being Alm's friends.

The game implies that much of what Alm accomplished, he accomplishes because he is special, of chosen blood, a royal, bearing a super-special brand, etc. There's even a scene where Grey and Tobin talk about how he's so much greater than they are. Anyone can be a hero? Nope, to be a hero you have to be a chosen one, and secretly royalty to boot. If that was the game's theme, it undermines it, and it undermines it hard.

Alm matches Duma well enough, he just also has the positive aspects of Mila too. Any contrast the game tries to draw between him and Celica ends up meaningless because Alm gets all the positive traits while Celica is an incomplete package, which is why she gets played for a fool while Alm becomes emperor of the entire continent.

 

12 minutes ago, Peaceful_User said:

This actually makes the plot make sense now and what they were aiming for. Now that makes the only true flaw of the plot is the random scene of Nuibaba's sprouting from the earth hands. 

Man that's like the least of the game's serious plot problems. There's also Rudolf's plan, the damselfication of over half the female cast, the game allowing Celica to be stupid and wrong so that Alm can look better, Berkut being forgiven after sacrificing his wife to a dark god, the fact that the game makes negative use of its setting, etc.

[Seazas]

54 minutes ago, Dark Holy Elf said:

I disagree.

An ending where Grey and Tobin become generals or whatever does not impress me, especially since they got there... basically for being Alm's friends.

The game implies that much of what Alm accomplished, he accomplishes because he is special, of chosen blood, a royal, bearing a super-special brand, etc. There's even a scene where Grey and Tobin talk about how he's so much greater than they are. Anyone can be a hero? Nope, to be a hero you have to be a chosen one, and secretly royalty to boot. If that was the game's theme, it undermines it, and it undermines it hard.

Alm matches Duma well enough, he just also has the positive aspects of Mila too. Any contrast the game tries to draw between him and Celica ends up meaningless because Alm gets all the positive traits while Celica is an incomplete package, which is why she gets played for a fool while Alm becomes emperor of the entire continent.

 

Man that's like the least of the game's serious plot problems. There's also Rudolf's plan, the damselfication of over half the female cast, the game allowing Celica to be stupid and wrong so that Alm can look better, Berkut being forgiven after sacrificing his wife to a dark god, the fact that the game makes negative use of its setting, etc.

I disagree to this disagreement. Tobin and Gray became noticeably skilled from the war so isn't just that. They fought throughout the whole thing and lived to tell the tale, they would've got some sort of credit for being apart of Alm's strength and being major players.

Mycen wasn't born a noble and he's considered a famous war hero and he didn't ride off of Alm's success so sorry but... That kinda turns your point about "no one can become a hero" really moot... That's not counting Lukas rising above his merits and getting far despite being a "backwater noble" and Forsyth getting his efforts rewarded by being a lieutenant and an advisor. Alm's special points only really shine when it comes down to handling a god, anyone could've done what Alm did (besides the god slaying part) and would be crowned a legend. All it takes is skill on the battlefield.  

That's wrong actually, he has some of Mila's positive traits but he follows Duma's ideals, even then in Act 5 when you get Celica back: she comes to regret acting out of desperation and believing what she was born to believe. She grows out of that, accepts Alm's offer to help him fight Duma and she starts to believe humanity can make it without gods. So she takes some of Duma's ideals to heart but has more of Mila in her. I find it a fitting end for her character and it lines up well.

Rudolf's plan is fine, prophecies are a big thing in those times, we're literally in a franchise where chosen ones and blessed heritages (like Marth's family for example being blessed to use the Falchion and no one else) are okay. Prophecies are fine. "Damselifcation" that's more of a nitpick than anything. A lot of the female chars despite being in a shitty situation beforehand turn out to be likable badasses than their entire character being a helpless princess: Mathilda, Faye (battlefield wise though her A support with Alm was nice before her ending), Clair, Mae, Sonya (one of the best chars of Echoes writing wise), and Delthea. Celica being a flawed protag goes well with Alm and Alm even says himself in Act 5 that without Celica, Alm can only look what's in front of him. That exact situation of Alm not thinking for a bit and going in guns blazing against Rudolf despite something itching him nonstop proves as such (Celica would've said or tried something in his shoes which something could've happened since Rudolf won't bring himself to attack). Negative use of it's setting...? Lmao. 

Edited January 10, 2018 by Peaceful_User

[Køkø]

46 minutes ago, Dark Holy Elf said:

I disagree.

An ending where Grey and Tobin become generals or whatever does not impress me, especially since they got there... basically for being Alm's friends.

The game implies that much of what Alm accomplished, he accomplishes because he is special, of chosen blood, a royal, bearing a super-special brand, etc. There's even a scene where Grey and Tobin talk about how he's so much greater than they are. Anyone can be a hero? Nope, to be a hero you have to be a chosen one, and secretly royalty to boot. If that was the game's theme, it undermines it, and it undermines it hard.

Alm matches Duma well enough, he just also has the positive aspects of Mila too. Any contrast the game tries to draw between him and Celica ends up meaningless because Alm gets all the positive traits while Celica is an incomplete package, which is why she gets played for a fool while Alm becomes emperor of the entire continent.

 

Man that's like the least of the game's serious plot problems. There's also Rudolf's plan, the damselfication of over half the female cast, the game allowing Celica to be stupid and wrong so that Alm can look better, Berkut being forgiven after sacrificing his wife to a dark god, the fact that the game makes negative use of its setting, etc.

Couldn't have said it better. I have no clue why being people are fellating this game's plot so much.  Admittedly, Echoes has the best style in terms of audio/visual, very crisp. Best battle animations too, I'm saying I like this game. The fact that people praise Alm while shitting on Corrin baffles me, I don't really see a difference. Hell, even Corrin doesn't have anyone blatantly state they're inferior to him/her. (As far as I remember.)

[Seazas]

6 minutes ago, Køkø said:

Couldn't have said it better. I have no clue why being people are fellating this game's plot so much.  Admittedly, Echoes has the best style in terms of audio/visual, very crisp. Best battle animations too, I'm saying I like this game. The fact that people praise Alm while shitting on Corrin baffles me, I don't really see a difference. Hell, even Corrin doesn't have anyone blatantly state they're inferior to him/her. (As far as I remember.)

Alm would never be able to convince anyone to jump off a cliff for him. He gets called insane just for going out to war and gets doubt for making a risky decision. 

Also seriously...? Alm is as bad as Corrin? Now THAT is some circlejerk. I'm impressed... If Alm screws up in the alternate scenarios the game doesn't constantly try to wave the issue away and makes sure to put Alm in the right like Corrin, Clive calls out Alm for being the reason his wife dies, and Clive's more displayed in the right to do so. (The game couldn't expand upon this because it's a side project and it lines up with Clive taking part of the blame because he never took action to begin with) 

Alm is actually experienced with war from the teachings of Mycen, Corrin despite being UTTERLY inexperienced, is handed the major roles of the army like leadership and it's... seriously?

Edited January 10, 2018 by Peaceful_User

[Køkø]

26 minutes ago, Peaceful_User said:

Alm would never be able to convince anyone to jump off a cliff for him. He gets called insane just for going out to war and gets doubt for making a risky decision. 

Also seriously...? Alm is as bad as Corrin? Now THAT is some circlejerk. I'm impressed... If Alm screws up in the alternate scenarios the game doesn't constantly try to wave the issue away and makes sure to put Corrin in the right, Clive calls out Alm for being the reason his wife dies, and Clive's more displayed in the right to do so. (The game couldn't expand upon this because it's a side project and it lines up with Clive taking part of the blame because he never took action to begin with) 

Alm is actually experienced with war from the teachings of Mycen, Corrin despite being UTTERLY inexperienced, is handed the major roles of the army like leadership and it's... seriously?

Not even Celica? Or Faye?  People seem to forget that Fates has three different stories, and Birthright Corrin is okay.  I come to my conclusion by that fact that both protagonists are inexperienced teenagers who are immediately made leader of an army despite there being better candidates, have super-ultra-special dragon-god blood, a super-ultra-special dragon-god sword that only they can wield, are liked by everyone who isn't a villain, secret royalty, inhumanly compassionate, (Birthright Corrin is more aggressive towards Nohr), you get the picture. 

What "circlejerk" are you talking about? I just don't think Echoes Alm embodies the spirit of Rigel, or is any higher than Corrin as a character.

And if Clive absolves Alm, Takumi does likewise for Corrin. (Conquest)

If Mycen's training fills the experience quota, Xander fills Corrin's. 

Edited January 10, 2018 by Køkø

[Seazas]

17 minutes ago, Køkø said:

Not even Celica? Or Faye?  People seem to forget that Fates has three different stories, and Birthright Corrin is okay.  I come to my conclusion by that fact that both protagonists are inexperienced teenagers who are immediately made leader of an army despite there being better candidates, have super-ultra-special dragon-god blood, a super-ultra-special dragon-god sword that only they can wield, are liked by everyone who isn't a villain, secret royalty, inhumanly compassionate, (Birthright Corrin is more aggressive towards Nohr), you get the picture. 

What "circlejerk" are you talking about? I just don't think Echoes Alm embodies the spirit of Rigel, or is any higher than Corrin as a character.

And if Clive absolves Alm, Takumi does likewise for Corrin. (Conquest)

If Mycen's training fills the experience quota, Xander fills Corrin's. 

No, they would doubt him as well. Faye... not sure but she didn't have faith about him surviving a war and was hesitant about joining him as well. Yeah Birthright Corrin is alright but Revelations is specifically the canon route and the other Corrins don't really matter unfortunately. 

He isn't supposed to, he's only supposed to share ideals with Duma. That's it. He's above Corrin and got criticized and doubted, with Alm having to prove himself every single time. There were way better options to put as the center front of the army who knows more about war but Corrin was put as forefront anyway and it makes no sense. 

It's just Takumi and you do know that they show that Takumi always loved Corrin and that the possession truly screwed him over right? Alm had to always PROVE that he was in the right to multiple characters and had to earn respect. Once Clive put the slightest backing into Alm, Clive was mocked upon and doubted upon by everyone except a few who witnessed Alm's skill. So Alm wasn't feared as a foe until he had to prove it. Corrin gets it off the get go due to being a royal. 

Mycen teaches Alm more than how to fight.

"Sir Mycen has been teaching me to use a blade since I was a boy. I’ve received tutelage in military tactics, medicine, weather, terrain… I know as much about war as any man who has never seen one can. Let me fight for you with my grandfather’s gifts. I’ll prove he’s no cowardly old man. He’s a warrior who trains warriors."

All Corrin was taught is how to fight, and it shows. Even then he's not as skilled as say Ryoma or Hinoka. 

Edited January 10, 2018 by Peaceful_User

[Køkø]

2 minutes ago, Peaceful_User said:

No, they would doubt him as well. Faye... not sure but she didn't have faith about him surviving a war and was hesitant about joining him as well. Yeah Birthright Corrin is alright but Revelations is specifically the canon route and the other Corrins don't really matter unfortunately. 

He isn't supposed to, he's only supposed to share ideals with Duma. That's it. He's above Corrin and got criticized and doubted, with Alm having to prove himself every single time. There were way better options to put as the center front of the army who knows more about war but Corrin was put as forefront anyway and it makes no sense. 

It's just Takumi and you do know that they show that Takumi always loved Corrin and that the possession truly screwed him over right? Alm had to always PROVE that he was in the right to multiple characters and had to earn respect. Corrin gets it off the get go due to being a royal. 

Mycen teaches Alm more than how to fight.

"Sir Mycen has been teaching me to use a blade since I was a boy. I’ve received tutelage in military tactics, medicine, weather, terrain… I know as much about war as any man who has never seen one can. Let me fight for you with my grandfather’s gifts. I’ll prove he’s no cowardly old man. He’s a warrior who trains warriors."

All Corrin was taught is how to fight and even then he's not as skilled as say Ryoma or Hinoka. 

Faye would do anything for Alm, lol. And Celica jumping off a cliff wouldn't be the dumbest thing she's done.  

Revelation has the most agreeable route, but this is Fates we're talking about here. Story was not a priority. I don't remember seeing anything regarding the canonicity of any of the paths, so please show me where you got that from.  

 

"It's just Takumi." It's just Clive. Takumi's disdain being more relevant considering Matilda dying isn't canon , where as Corrin betraying Hoshido for Nohr is. (Conquest)  

What non-villain doubts Alm other than Clive? As much as I hate Fernand, I can agree with his decision to leave after Alm is made leader. 

 

It isn't explicitly stated, but Corrin could have learned similar techniques. Even if he didn't, can we agree that there's a difference between learning how to do something and actually doing it?

Considering the fact the Corrin defeats both Ryoma and Xander, along with their respective factions multiple times across the routes, I don't know how you can say that. 

What makes Hinoka so strong again? Her chapter is a bitch on Hard and up, I'll give you that. But that's more to do with her units, rather than herself.

[Seazas]

24 minutes ago, Køkø said:

Faye would do anything for Alm, lol. And Celica jumping off a cliff wouldn't be the dumbest thing she's done.  

Revelation has the most agreeable route, but this is Fates we're talking about here. Story was not a priority. I don't remember seeing anything regarding the canonicity of any of the paths, so please show me where you got that from.  

 

"It's just Takumi." It's just Clive. Takumi's disdain being more relevant considering Matilda dying isn't canon , where as Corrin betraying Hoshido for Nohr is. (Conquest)  

What non-villain doubts Alm other than Clive? As much as I hate Fernand, I can agree with his decision to leave after Alm is made leader. 

 

It isn't explicitly stated, but Corrin could have learned similar techniques. Even if he didn't, can we agree that there's a difference between learning how to do something and actually doing it?

Considering the fact the Corrin defeats both Ryoma and Xander, along with their respective factions multiple times across the routes, I don't know how you can say that. 

What makes Hinoka so strong again? Her chapter is a bitch on Hard and up, I'll give you that. But that's more to do with her units, rather than herself.

Actually it would because Celica did what she did out of desperation and the way it was set up. She thought if she sacrificed her life everyone would at least be okay underneath Duma taking care of Valentia. Because again, gods were held with the most priority and Mila just being GONE caused shit to go sideways. Imagine a mad Duma with nothing to hold him back lol. 

It isn't just Clive, everyone has a moment of doubting Alm, no one doubts Corrin BUT Takumi.

No, Corrin knows nothing about war except fighting which Corrin hates. Xander kicks Corrin's ass all the time until Elise is killed where he just... gives up. It's kinda sad.

Hinoka would totally have more experience in fighting and commanding than Corrin though. 

Edited January 10, 2018 by Peaceful_User

[Køkø]

21 hours ago, Peaceful_User said:

Actually it would because Celica did what she did out of desperation and the way it was set up. She thought if she sacrificed her life everyone would at least be okay underneath Duma taking care of Valentia.

Revelations is canon. Also it isn't just Clive, everyone has a moment of doubting Alm, no one doubts Corrin BUT Takumi.

No, Corrin knows nothing about war except fighting which Corrin hates. Xander kicks Corrin's ass all the time until Elise is killed where he just... gives up. It's kinda sad.

Hinoka would totally have more experience in fighting and commanding than Corrin though. 

Because Judah and his degenerating dragon god is soo trustworthy....  

Link please?  

Their doubt meant nothing then, because they all go along regardless. All while reminding Alm how awesome he is.  

 

Corrin is the leader of his army, and makes all the tactical decisions. That would indicate intelligence. Corrin is the sole wielder of the Yato, and the child of Anankos. Lore wise, he's stronger than both Ryoma and Xander. Gameplay wise too, depending on your file.  

Again, where is Hinoka's prowess mentioned? He defeats her too, you know.

 

 

Edited January 11, 2018 by Køkø

[Seazas]

29 minutes ago, Køkø said:

Because Judah and his degenerating dragon god is soo trustworthy....  

Link please?  

Their doubt meant nothing then, because they all go along regardless. All while reminding Alm how awesome he is.  

 

Corrin is the leader of his army, and makes all the tactical decisions. That would indicate intelligence. Corrin is the sole wielder of the Yato, and the child of Anankos. Lore wise, he's the stronger than both Ryoma and Xander. Gameplay wise too, depending on your file.  

Again, where is Hinoka's prowess mentioned? He defeats her too, you know.

 

 

No they wouldn't. You assuming stuff like this is why I called your point nothing but circlejerk. Everyone in his army have something to do with their lives. Unless Clair decides to check with her pegasus to confirm then there's a chance.

Made leader despite being inexperienced with battle and making dumb decisions like trusting Anthony.  At least Jedah was a high and mighty priest of Duma with Halcyon being the former one and he was a good guy when Celica met him. Anthony was some random shady kid. 

Edited January 10, 2018 by Peaceful_User

[Køkø]

18 minutes ago, Peaceful_User said:

No they wouldn't. You assuming stuff like this is why I called your point nothing but circlejerk. 

Made leader despite being inexperienced with battle and making dumb decisions like trusting Anthony. 

You're avoiding a lot of my questions you know. This could end a lot sooner, and I hope it does. I don't intend to make replies page after page. 

Your response seems to be addressing the post before my previous one, I'm confused.   

 

Alm is Faye's entire existence, and Echoes made Celica much more "dependent" in lieu of stronger words. My assumptions are justified.  

And Revelation Corrin doesn't trust Anthony.

 

• Avatar: So, Xander was right after all...
• Anthony: Of course he was! I've been ordered to kill every member of your group! Starting with you. After all, you know what they say about cutting off the head... Your friends won't know what to do without you around to lead them!
• Avatar: I think you underestimate them, Anthony. And you underestimate me, too.
• Anthony: Ha! What are you talking about? Like lambs to slaughter, they'll follow me into a trap when I tell them you're missing.
• Avatar: Unless I left behind a message for them before we set out.
• Anthony: ...A message?!
• Avatar: I told them that if I didn't return, it would mean you'd led me into a trap.
• Anthony: But that means...you never trusted me at all!
• Avatar: I wanted to, Anthony. I really did. That's why I'm sad that things have turned out this way. Don't think that means I won't fight you with everything I have, though! The least I can do is thin your numbers so that my friends have an easier time.

 

 There are only 3 people in this thread. (You included) The other guy replied once, so it's really just you and me. I fail to see this "circlejerk".

Edited January 10, 2018 by Køkø

[Seazas]

32 minutes ago, Køkø said:

You're avoiding a lot of my questions you know. This could end a lot sooner, and I hope it does. I don't intend to make replies page after page. 

Your response seems to be addressing the post before my previous one, I'm confused.   

 

Alm is Faye's entire existence, and Echoes made Celica much more "dependent" in lieu of stronger words. My assumptions are justified.  

And Revelation Corrin doesn't trust Anthony.

 

• Avatar: So, Xander was right after all...
• Anthony: Of course he was! I've been ordered to kill every member of your group! Starting with you. After all, you know what they say about cutting off the head... Your friends won't know what to do without you around to lead them!
• Avatar: I think you underestimate them, Anthony. And you underestimate me, too.
• Anthony: Ha! What are you talking about? Like lambs to slaughter, they'll follow me into a trap when I tell them you're missing.
• Avatar: Unless I left behind a message for them before we set out.
• Anthony: ...A message?!
• Avatar: I told them that if I didn't return, it would mean you'd led me into a trap.
• Anthony: But that means...you never trusted me at all!
• Avatar: I wanted to, Anthony. I really did. That's why I'm sad that things have turned out this way. Don't think that means I won't fight you with everything I have, though! The least I can do is thin your numbers so that my friends have an easier time.

 

 There are only 3 people in this thread. (You included) The other guy replied once, so it's really just you and me. I fail to see this "circlejerk".

Yet Faye was forced into Echoes and she'd be the only one doing it. Nobody else. Your assumptions are far from justified. The characters from Echoes' existence doesn't revolve around Alm like Faye does. If Gray thought Alm was crazy from saying his adventure was like a voice calling out to him no way in hell is Gray jumping off a cliff for Alm. Kliff's extremely pessimistic while being realistic and a snarker. He's not doing it. The Deliverance gang (before Alm) all have lives and goals and they wouldn't want that cut short, Tobin, Zeke, Tatiana, Luthier, Delthea, hell the entire Celica party wouldn't do it for similar reasons to the Deliverance gang. This is just blatant circlejerking to try to bash Alm as hard as you can. That just... really annoys me

Fair point about Anthony I guess.

Edited January 10, 2018 by Peaceful_User

[Køkø]

Glad you can admit Faye would do it. I think Echoes Celica would do it too.  

I never said that the entire cast's existence was Alm, I was specifically talking about Faye. Still, that doesn't change the fact that heaps of praise is given to Alm because he's "The Chosen One". Tobin and Grey blatantly lament their inferiority to him in a fashion that  even Corrin's games lack.  How exactly do you think your justification of Celica's actions regarding Judah is valid? The same high priest whose country is attempting to conquer hers? The same priest who is a worshiper of her god's opposite? (Seriously, Doma must be like Satan in Sofia's religion) 

The same priest whose done nothing but try to take her soul through his creepy goons the entire game? The same priest who is totally cool with terrors and the undead roaming the dying earth? He's a Disney villain. Laughably evil, on par with Garon. 

Stop it with that "circlejerking" comment of yours, it's just you  and me. Your interpretation of my posts is very selective, you're not even reading.  

You seem to be concerning over the cliff thing. Need I remind you they only agree to do so after Corrin tries to kill himself to prove his point? 

• Avatar: Well... Now we jump off this bridge. We have to reach the bottom of the canyon to continue.
• Takumi: Avatar, it's called the Bottomless Canyon. By definition, we can't reach the bottom. You're asking us to kill ourselves!
• Gunter: Lord/Lady Avatar, you were prepared for them to doubt you, yes?
• Avatar: Yes, Gunter. I was prepared for this. I'm sorry I haven't been able to tell you the whole truth up until now. I'm certain that you'll be willing to jump once you know why I've been fighting.
• Azura: Avatar! What are you saying? You can't tell them everything here. If you do, the curse...
• Xander: What curse? What is she talking about?
• Avatar: If I speak the truth here, and not down below, a curse will trigger and I'll...vanish. But if that's the only way to convince everyone to jump, then I have to do it. Xander, Ryoma, I'm counting on you two to finish what I've started once I'm gone.

Bashing Alm as hard as I can? There's aren't many things I get excited about these days, getting that from a video game character would be nice. I only said that he is about as good a character as Corrin. 

I'll ask you one last time before giving up. When did the devs confirm a Fates canon? And why is Hinoka's battle prowess so special? 

 

Edited January 10, 2018 by Køkø

[Baldrick]

3 hours ago, Dark Holy Elf said:

The game implies that much of what Alm accomplished, he accomplishes because he is special, of chosen blood, a royal, bearing a super-special brand, etc. There's even a scene where Grey and Tobin talk about how he's so much greater than they are. Anyone can be a hero? Nope, to be a hero you have to be a chosen one, and secretly royalty to boot. If that was the game's theme, it undermines it, and it undermines it hard.

Alm matches Duma well enough, he just also has the positive aspects of Mila too. Any contrast the game tries to draw between him and Celica ends up meaningless because Alm gets all the positive traits while Celica is an incomplete package, which is why she gets played for a fool while Alm becomes emperor of the entire continent.

The plot is about Alm, but plenty of people achieve things that have nothing to do with being his friend or one of his knights. Jesse and Kamui create an independent kingdom. Luthier and Kliff have adventures overseas. The pegasus sister are famous for their exploits in Archanea. Atlas is admired for protecting his village from bandits. The theme is only undermined if you think one has to kill gods and create a thousand-year dynasty to be considered a hero.

The contrast is that Alm balances the two philosophies and Celica does not; Duma says as much when you beat him. Berkut is meant to be the Duma counterpart to Celica, and the contrast between Alm and Berkut is also notable because they're virtually the same, with different upbringings.

[Seazas]

29 minutes ago, Baldrick said:

The plot is about Alm, but plenty of people achieve things that have nothing to do with being his friend or one of his knights. Jesse and Kamui create an independent kingdom. Luthier and Kliff have adventures overseas. The pegasus sister are famous for their exploits in Archanea. Atlas is admired for protecting his village from bandits. The theme is only undermined if you think one has to kill gods and create a thousand-year dynasty to be considered a hero.

The contrast is that Alm balances the two philosophies and Celica does not; Duma says as much when you beat him. Berkut is meant to be the Duma counterpart to Celica, and the contrast between Alm and Berkut is also notable because they're virtually the same, with different upbringings.

This so much

Though the latter is quite an interpretation!

 

1 hour ago, Køkø said:

Glad you can admit Faye would do it. I think Echoes Celica would do it too.  

I never said that the entire cast's existence was Alm, I was specifically talking about Faye. Still, that doesn't change the fact that heaps of praise is given to Alm because he's "The Chosen One". Tobin and Grey blatantly lament their inferiority to him in a fashion that  even Corrin's games lack.  How exactly do you think your justification of Celica's actions regarding Judah is valid? The same high priest whose country is attempting to conquer hers? The same priest who is a worshiper of her god's opposite? (Seriously, Doma must be like Satan in Sofia's religion) 

The same priest whose done nothing but try to take her soul through his creepy goons the entire game? The same priest who is totally cool with terrors and the undead roaming the dying earth? He's a Disney villain. Laughably evil, on par with Garon. 

Stop it with that "circlejerking" comment of yours, it's just you  and me. Your interpretation of my posts is very selective, you're not even reading.  

You seem to be concerning over the cliff thing. Need I remind you they only agree to do so after Corrin tries to kill himself to prove his point? 

• Avatar: Well... Now we jump off this bridge. We have to reach the bottom of the canyon to continue.
• Takumi: Avatar, it's called the Bottomless Canyon. By definition, we can't reach the bottom. You're asking us to kill ourselves!
• Gunter: Lord/Lady Avatar, you were prepared for them to doubt you, yes?
• Avatar: Yes, Gunter. I was prepared for this. I'm sorry I haven't been able to tell you the whole truth up until now. I'm certain that you'll be willing to jump once you know why I've been fighting.
• Azura: Avatar! What are you saying? You can't tell them everything here. If you do, the curse...
• Xander: What curse? What is she talking about?
• Avatar: If I speak the truth here, and not down below, a curse will trigger and I'll...vanish. But if that's the only way to convince everyone to jump, then I have to do it. Xander, Ryoma, I'm counting on you two to finish what I've started once I'm gone.

Bashing Alm as hard as I can? There's aren't many things I get excited about these days, getting that from a video game character would be nice. I only said that he is about as good a character as Corrin. 

I'll ask you one last time before giving up. When did the devs confirm a Fates canon? And why is Hinoka's battle prowess so special? 

 

Revelation is pushed and preferred over every route and it's treated as the canon one. Hell, the way IS characterizes Corrin outside of Fates is Revelations Corrin.

You do know Gray meant that as Alm has a passion that Gray and Tobin don't right? Look at his base conversation. Still better than Corrin though.

Nope, he shows moral gray during Act 5. He genuinely cared about Duma and actually believed Valentia wouldn't last without the gods. He just wasn't used to his full potential. Wish I can say the same to Garon, he NEVER showed moral gray.

Shit reason for a shit plot point tbh. They could've done better than relying on a cliff to begin with.

Again, Hinoka has more experience than Corrin. I already said as such. 

Edited January 10, 2018 by Peaceful_User

[Køkø]

1 hour ago, Peaceful_User said:

This so much

Though the latter is quite an interpretation!

 

Revelation is pushed and preferred over every route and it's treated as the canon one. Hell, the way IS characterizes Corrin outside of Fates is Revelations Corrin.

You do know Gray meant that as Alm has a passion that Gray and Tobin don't right? Look at his base conversation. Still better than Corrin though.

Nope, he shows moral gray during Act 5. He genuinely cared about Duma and actually believed Valentia wouldn't last without the gods. He just wasn't used to his full potential. Wish I can say the same to Garon, he NEVER showed moral gray.

Shit reason for a shit plot point tbh. They could've done better than relying on a cliff to begin with.

Again, Hinoka has more experience than Corrin. I already said as such. 

Where? Corrin doesn't even have a canon gender, let alone a canon path. Fates entire gimmick is "choose your own story". Making a canon path that excludes the other two would undermine that.

 Most 3rd party artwork depicts Corrin neutrally, in their starting class with the normal Yato. Occasionally pushing Male Corrin to Birthright, and Female Corrin to Conquest. Smash Bros is the only place that depicts them with the Omega Yato, and Smash is far from canon. Revelation is actually the neglected path, as far as 3rd party goes. 

Doesn't change the fact that Alm, like Corrin, is "The Chosen One". Who will be better than anyone else no matter what because of his ultra-super-mega special dragon-blood. Here's some hard evidence. 

Tobin: Alm, I’m gonna level with you… I’ve always hated how you were better than me at everything. Gray told me I should stop trying to compete with you, but damn it… I just couldn’t see how we were in such different places. But I understand it now. You’re meant to lead, and you have the strength and ability to back it up. My job isn’t to be better than you— it’s to be part of your strength. I’m not going to say I like it…but I can definitely accept it. So I just want you to know that I’ll always be there for you.

Alm undermines his own mantra and proves Berkut and Fernand right. 

 

 

The only thing grey about Judah is his skin. (Bluish grey) Garon is pretty "grey " too.

Jedah: Their souls were offered to Duma freely, and both received endless bliss in turn. Only a fool would refuse to see a truth so plain. You are a burden to your wise sisters, and I shall relieve them of it now! 

Bow before Duma's eminence! Kneel before his awesome power!  

“Keh heh heh... Your struggling is most precious. But I'll not end your meager little lives quite yet. Anthiese! You will ascend Duma Tower and join me at its pinnacle! ...Unless you wish to lose your precious Alm, that is.”  

“All glory...unto Duma...”

“Aah... This cannot be... It mustn't... Lord Duma... My Lord... Duma... ” 

His entire dialogue consists of nothing but mindless worshiping of the giant evil swamp dragon for no fucking reason. Same as Garon. His idea of bliss is hell on earth, just because.  How could he could believe that Doma would save Valentia when they were the ones who fucked it up in the first place? 

I'm not defending Fates' "story", but Echoes is no better. 

I sifted through all of Fates' dialogue, and I didn't find one mention of Hinoka's battle prowess. You say I'm being too hard on Alm but the truth is,  you're being too hard on Corrin.

I found two cards depicting Corrin with the Omega Yato. Tried to put it up there but Serenes is fucking up for some reason.

 

Edited January 10, 2018 by Køkø

[DragonFlames]

6 minutes ago, Køkø said:

I sifted through all of Fates' dialogue, and I didn't find one mention of Hinoka's battle prowess. You say I'm being too hard on Alm but the truth is,  you're being to hard on Corrin.

There is one mention of Hinoka's battle prowess during the prologue chapters, where Ryoma tells Corrin about Hinoka. He says (loosely translated from the German version): "And I must say, if you ever find yourself facing the wrong end of [Hinoka's] weapon, you'll regret your life choices."

Anyhow, both of you make solid points, I believe. As someone who doesn't blame Fates' story being bad on Corrin, your conversation "proves" that Corrin isn't as bad of a character as some people make him / her out to be.

Also daily reminder that some of Corrin's stupid choices in Fates aren't even his / her fault, since it's mostly their so-called siblings that allegedly love him / her SO much (sarcasm off) and Azura that cause problems to begin with, because they either have major blind loyalty (Nohr), short term memory loss (Hoshido) or are so untrustworthy that it's a miracle they aren't the villain instead, let alone still alive by the time the game begins (Azura).

A bit more on topic: I like Echoes' story for what it is. Sure, there are some flaws (as there are in anything), but I'm willing to overlook them, since they are not that glaring.

[Køkø]

1 hour ago, DragonFlames said:

There is one mention of Hinoka's battle prowess during the prologue chapters, where Ryoma tells Corrin about Hinoka. He says (loosely translated from the German version): "And I must say, if you ever find yourself facing the wrong end of [Hinoka's] weapon, you'll regret your life choices."

Anyhow, both of you make solid points, I believe. As someone who doesn't blame Fates' story being bad on Corrin, your conversation "proves" that Corrin isn't as bad of a character as some people make him / her out to be.

Also daily reminder that some of Corrin's stupid choices in Fates aren't even his / her fault, since it's mostly their so-called siblings that allegedly love him / her SO much (sarcasm off) and Azura that cause problems to begin with, because they either have major blind loyalty (Nohr), short term memory loss (Hoshido) or are so untrustworthy that it's a miracle they aren't the villain instead, let alone still alive by the time the game begins (Azura).

A bit more on topic: I like Echoes' story for what it is. Sure, there are some flaws (as there are in anything), but I'm willing to overlook them, since they are not that glaring.

It's in the English version too. I took that as more of a compliment to his sister rather than a legit testament to Hinoka's renowned status as warrior. I just found it odd  that he mentioned Hinoka, rather than Xander or Takumi/Leo. The wielders of the legendary weapons. I don't think Hinoka is on that level (lore wise), but I could be wrong.  

 

Fates' story wasn't bad conceptually,(I heard they hired a professional writer after complaints towards Awakening), just in pacing and execution.

I honestly really like both games, so no hate here. I just don't understand why people consider Fates' flaws, Echoes boons. 

Edited January 10, 2018 by Køkø

[NekoKnight]

I think the problem with Alm being secret royalty is that it casts doubt on everything Alm achieves. Is Alm amazing because he works hard, or does being a royal just make you naturally better than others? Is he a child of destiny because he has a special aptitude, or does he have a special aptitude because he's a child of destiny? Alm really should not have been a royal if they wanted to tell a "the circumstances of your birth don't matter" story.

As Dark Holy Elf said, the commoners in the army finding success is also underminded by being close friends and subordinates with the emperor of the continent. Alm and Celica (allegedly) are the people who lead the armies and save the world, two royals.

1 hour ago, Køkø said:

Where? Corrin doesn't even have a canon gender, let alone a canon path. Fates entire gimmick is "choose your own story". Making a canon path that excludes the other two would undermine that.

 Most 3rd party artwork depicts Corrin neutrally, in their starting class with the normal Yato. Occasionally pushing Male Corrin to Birthright, and Female Corrin to Conquest. Smash Bros is the only place that depicts them with the Omega Yato, and Smash is far from canon. Revelation is actually the neglected path, as far as 3rd party goes.

While there is no official statement that Revelation is canon, it makes the most sense. Heroes and Smash depict Corrin with the Omega Yato (which is the strongest, most complete form), and it's only Revelation that gets the complete story where you fight the real enemy. Conquest and Birthright deliberately avoids letting you know the truth (thanks Azura). You're encouraged by the game itself to not play Revelation first because the first two routes are the flawed ones and Revelation is the "now do it right" path.

3 hours ago, Baldrick said:

The contrast is that Alm balances the two philosophies and Celica does not; Duma says as much when you beat him. Berkut is meant to be the Duma counterpart to Celica, and the contrast between Alm and Berkut is also notable because they're virtually the same, with different upbringings.

I agree that Berkut is the Duma analogue, but it puts the sybolism of Alm and Celica's relationship in a strange place. Why is Alm, Mr. Complete Package, paired with Celica who is a flawed half? Wouldn't Berkut be the other half to Celica? Why does Alm need Celica at all? The theme of the game is they need to compromise and find a middle ground between two extreme ideals, but Celica is all wrong and Alm doesnt need to compromise. Why are they bound by fate again?

[Køkø]

12 hours ago, NekoKnight said:

I think the problem with Alm being secret royalty is that it casts doubt on everything Alm achieves. Is Alm amazing because he works hard, or does being a royal just make you naturally better than others? Is he a child of destiny because he has a special aptitude, or does he have a special aptitude because he's a child of destiny? Alm really should not have been a royal if they wanted to tell a "the circumstances of your birth don't matter" story.

As Dark Holy Elf said, the commoners in the army finding success is also underminded by being close friends and subordinates with the emperor of the continent. Alm and Celica (allegedly) are the people who lead the armies and save the world, two royals.

While there is no official statement that Revelation is canon, it makes the most sense. Heroes and Smash depict Corrin with the Omega Yato (which is the strongest, most complete form), and it's only Revelation that gets the complete story where you fight the real enemy. Conquest and Birthright deliberately avoids letting you know the truth (thanks Azura). You're encouraged by the game itself to not play Revelation first because the first two routes are the flawed ones and Revelation is the "now do it right" path.

I agree that Berkut is the Duma analogue, but it puts the sybolism of Alm and Celica's relationship in a strange place. Why is Alm, Mr. Complete Package, paired with Celica who is a flawed half? Wouldn't Berkut be the other half to Celica? Why does Alm need Celica at all? The theme of the game is they need to compromise and find a middle ground between two extreme ideals, but Celica is all wrong and Alm doesnt need to compromise. Why are they bound by fate again?

"I think the problem with Alm being secret royalty is that it casts doubt on everything Alm achieves. Is Alm amazing because he works hard, or does being a royal just make you naturally better than others? Is he a child of destiny because he has a special aptitude, or does he have a special aptitude because he's a child of destiny? Alm really should not have been a royal if they wanted to tell a "the circumstances of your birth don't matter" story."  

"As Dark Holy Elf said, the commoners in the army finding success is also underminded by being close friends and subordinates with the emperor of the continent. Alm and Celica (allegedly) are the people who lead the armies and save the world, two royals." 

"I agree that Berkut is the Duma analogue, but it puts the sybolism of Alm and Celica's relationship in a strange place. Why is Alm, Mr. Complete Package, paired with Celica who is a flawed half? Wouldn't Berkut be the other half to Celica? Why does Alm need Celica at all? The theme of the game is they need to compromise and find a middle ground between two extreme ideals, but Celica is all wrong and Alm doesnt need to compromise. Why are they bound by fate again?" 

 

Agreed. Echoes failed to capture Rigel and Sofia's contrast. Alm is perfect generic anime protagonist number 6,541, and Celica is a damsel in distress. 

 

 

"While there is no official statement that Revelation is canon, it makes the most sense. Heroes and Smash depict Corrin with the Omega Yato (which is the strongest, most complete form), and it's only Revelation that gets the complete story where you fight the real enemy. Conquest and Birthright deliberately avoids letting you know the truth (thanks Azura). You're encouraged by the game itself to not play Revelation first because the first two routes are the flawed ones and Revelation is the "now do it right" path." 

 

I already said it's the most agreeable path. Heroes and Smash are not canon, that we know. Depictions of Corrin with the Omega Yato are in the minority, and I believe that this is deliberate. Fates is structured in a way that branches out into a completely different story depending on your path. Anankos is never mentioned in Birthright and Conquest's epilogues, so it's possible that he's only resurrected in Revelation.  I thought that the warning was issued because IS thought that playing it first would ruin the "revelation". They're all as vapid as one another, so it makes no difference. It actually suggests you play both BR and CQ prior, but I theorize that the reason is monetary.

I'm just saying that with all the multiple dimension bullshit, I doubt that there's a "correct" path.

 

Now that I think about it, Berkut doesn't embody Rigel either. Isn't Rigel supposed to be darwinistic meritocracy? Berkut's all about nobility and birthright, so they fucked that up too.

Edited January 11, 2018 by Køkø

[Icelerate]

The reason why Alm is balanced unlike Berkut and Celica is because Alm also has the softness of Zofia since he lived his life in Zofia while also the aggressiveness of Rigel due to being the son of the Rigellian Emperor. 

[DragonFlames]

3 hours ago, NekoKnight said:

While there is no official statement that Revelation is canon, it makes the most sense. Heroes and Smash depict Corrin with the Omega Yato (which is the strongest, most complete form), and it's only Revelation that gets the complete story where you fight the real enemy. Conquest and Birthright deliberately avoids letting you know the truth (thanks Azura). You're encouraged by the game itself to not play Revelation first because the first two routes are the flawed ones and Revelation is the "now do it right" path.

Instant sympathy for the deserved slap in Azura's face. Why the heck is she so popular with the fans anyway? I will never know...

Ironic, then, that if you choose to side with no one, both suddenly start to hate you for no discernible reason while if you side with one over the other, the other in part still believes that there is a way to make you join their side, even if that way is complete bull.

DragonFlames-Headcanon!Corrin: Sure, hack my limbs off. See if that convinces me to join you instead, you complete blockheads.

4 hours ago, Køkø said:

It's in the English version too. I took that as more of a compliment to his sister rather than a legit testament to Hinoka's renowned status as warrior. I just found it odd  that he mentioned Hinoka, rather than Xander or Takumi/Leo. The wielders of the legendary weapons. I don't think Hinoka is on that level (lore wise), but I could be wrong. 

Fates' story wasn't bad conceptually,(I heard they hired a professional writer after complaints towards Awakening), just in pacing and execution.

I honestly really like both games, so no hate here. I just don't understand why people consider Fates' flaws, Echoes boons. 

I never pegged you for a hater. Sorry if my statement came off that way.
I consider Echoes' boons to be it's far superior world building (we actually know where we are!) and more realistic, developed characters that actually feel like human beings, even if some of them are a bit cliché, none of them feel as though they are either only gimmicks, complete idiots, or only exist to make said complete idiots look good like in Fates, though there are some awesome characters in Fates, don't get me wrong. And Echoes has one or two stinkers as well.
The quality of the story is debatable, yes. I, for one, like the more realistic approach to everything, especially the reasons as to why Celica does what she does and why Jedah believes in Duma to begin with. It requires a bit of reading between the lines and some knowledge of how religions work, but it's still more than what Fates gave us with it's mess of a plot, Birthright notwithstanding, which was at least decent, even if it had some very, very stupid moments, courtesy of a certain Royal idiot whose name shall not be mentioned here.
Alm himself is tolerable. I don't like him as much as some other people do, because I do agree that they should not have made him royalty.

What I will admit that Fates, despite all of my gripes with it (which honestly can be boiled down to my strong dislike of 8-10 characters out of almost 70), has over Echoes is it's far superior replayability and gameplay in general. Though the wonky RNG in Fates and some of its more... questionable design choices (horribly unbalanced weapons, Royal bias, no implementation of marriage choice if available in the main campaign and so forth) earns it some negative points.

While I really enjoy both games as well, in the end I have to give the "victory" to Echoes in the story and character department, the latter especially. The Conquest part of Fates' map themes are also quite grating after a short time, while Echoes' music is stellar throughout except for the battle theme. Echoes also looks prettier, both in terms of graphics and especially character design.   
Awakening has them both beat in all areas except music and artstyle.

[Seazas]

6 hours ago, NekoKnight said:

I think the problem with Alm being secret royalty is that it casts doubt on everything Alm achieves. Is Alm amazing because he works hard, or does being a royal just make you naturally better than others? Is he a child of destiny because he has a special aptitude, or does he have a special aptitude because he's a child of destiny? Alm really should not have been a royal if they wanted to tell a "the circumstances of your birth don't matter" story.

As Dark Holy Elf said, the commoners in the army finding success is also underminded by being close friends and subordinates with the emperor of the continent. Alm and Celica (allegedly) are the people who lead the armies and save the world, two royals.

While there is no official statement that Revelation is canon, it makes the most sense. Heroes and Smash depict Corrin with the Omega Yato (which is the strongest, most complete form), and it's only Revelation that gets the complete story where you fight the real enemy. Conquest and Birthright deliberately avoids letting you know the truth (thanks Azura). You're encouraged by the game itself to not play Revelation first because the first two routes are the flawed ones and Revelation is the "now do it right" path.

I agree that Berkut is the Duma analogue, but it puts the sybolism of Alm and Celica's relationship in a strange place. Why is Alm, Mr. Complete Package, paired with Celica who is a flawed half? Wouldn't Berkut be the other half to Celica? Why does Alm need Celica at all? The theme of the game is they need to compromise and find a middle ground between two extreme ideals, but Celica is all wrong and Alm doesnt need to compromise. Why are they bound by fate again?

He wouldn't of got as far as he did if it wasn't for his skill taught by Mycen. the only thing the brand does is give him access to Falchion which is irrelevant to Alm's abilities until late in.

Also wrong, Lukas and Forsyth rose on their own morals to become a vital part of the deliverance without Alm. Mycen isn't a noble either and he's considered a legendary war hero.

Alm has Duma's ideals with a bit of Mila's. Celica has Mila's ideals and she grows to get some of Duma's in Act 5. It's more balanced than you give it credit for. Alm even says without Celica he can only charge in without thinking what's in front of him. Shall I quote Alm's exact words? Also I'll quote some of another post of mind that addresses this very point.

13 hours ago, Peaceful_User said:

That exact situation of Alm not thinking for a bit and going in guns blazing against Rudolf despite something itching him nonstop proves as such (Celica would've said or tried something in his shoes which something could've happened since Rudolf won't bring himself to attack).

^^^^ I'll quote myself since I addressed that point before. 

[Tryhard]

I personally would've preferred farmboy Alm played straight simply because I'd find it more interesting in comparison to other lords save perhaps Ike, but I've played Gaiden and I knew it was coming - they weren't going to not have their twist.