(SOV Story Spoilers) In my opinion, Alm doesn't undermine any theme of Echoes to me.

[NekoKnight]

5 hours ago, Icelerate said:

The reason why Alm is balanced unlike Berkut and Celica is because Alm also has the softness of Zofia since he lived his life in Zofia while also the aggressiveness of Rigel due to being the son of the Rigellian Emperor. 

The softness is definitely thanks to the Zofian upbringing but I don't know how he could have any Rigelian qualities considering he spent maybe a few weeks of his infancy in Rigel. Where else would it come from? Is Rigelian DNA more aggressive?

Regardless, I'd argue he's not especially aggressive or war-like.

2 hours ago, Peaceful_User said:

Alm has Duma's ideals with a bit of Mila's. Celica has Mila's ideals and she grows to get some of Duma's in Act 5. It's more balanced than you give it credit for. Alm even says without Celica he can only charge in without thinking what's in front of him. Shall I quote Alm's exact words? Also I'll quote some of another post of mind that addresses this very point.

I don't see Alm as being very much like Duma or Rigel. He doesn't "go in guns blazing" like Ephraim might. He fights with the same caution (unless Celica is in danger, but that's a natural response) and resolve as you would expect of someone defending their homeland. Most of the Deliverance is of a similar mind and they're Zofians.

He does reject Celica's "sit on our hands" philosophy, but the game doesn't do enough otherwise to make him the Duma/Rigel counterpart to Celica's Mila/Zofia.

[Seazas]

3 hours ago, Tryhard said:

I personally would've preferred farmboy Alm played straight simply because I'd find it more interesting in comparison to other lords save perhaps Ike, but I've played Gaiden and I knew it was coming - they weren't going to not have their twist.

The story can still be good without forcing the lord to be a commoner.

Look at Genealogy they literally have the brand in their game and the story is still fantastic. 

[Seazas]

3 hours ago, NekoKnight said:

The softness is definitely thanks to the Zofian upbringing but I don't know how he could have any Rigelian qualities considering he spent maybe a few weeks of his infancy in Rigel. Where else would it come from? Is Rigelian DNA more aggressive?

Regardless, I'd argue he's not especially aggressive or war-like.

I don't see Alm as being very much like Duma or Rigel. He doesn't "go in guns blazing" like Ephraim might. He fights with the same caution (unless Celica is in danger, but that's a natural response) and resolve as you would expect of someone defending their homeland. Most of the Deliverance is of a similar mind and they're Zofians.

He does reject Celica's "sit on our hands" philosophy, but the game doesn't do enough otherwise to make him the Duma/Rigel counterpart to Celica's Mila/Zofia.

Duma's entire purpose and what he does is he wants for humanity to stand strong without gods, Alm is the exact same as Duma regarding that idea. There isn't supposed to be a Zofia and Rigel contrast, the only contrast was how different their kingdoms were truly. Alm and Celica play no part of that specific kingdom contrast. Alm was a nice guy even in Gaiden. 

Edited January 11, 2018 by Peaceful_User

[FrostyFireMage]

I never thought that the theme of Echoes was "commoners can do things just as well as nobles", I thought it was more like "classism is wrong" and "the world needs equal parts strife and peace". Or "don't let the circumstances of your birth stop you from being the best you can be"

[Dragoncat]

On 1/9/2018 at 11:52 PM, Peaceful_User said:

 

Then there's the other theme. Alm shares Duma's ideals to a T as well so it doesn't throw Celica off. Alm wanted humanity to stand strong without depending on gods and that's exactly what Duma wanted. Duma proves to be an alright guy so making Alm ultra aggressive is unnecessary.

Last I checked, Alm didn't want to have followers that sacrificed women to him, take their souls, and leave the women as witches. I mean I can kind of see that? But what?

Keep in mind I haven't actually beat Duma. But I got to the final battle.

[Seazas]

1 hour ago, Dragoncat said:

Last I checked, Alm didn't want to have followers that sacrificed women to him, take their souls, and leave the women as witches. I mean I can kind of see that? But what?

Keep in mind I haven't actually beat Duma. But I got to the final battle.

Duma was mad in that time you know that right? Also Alm wants humanity so stand strong and that's all what Duma wanted. The shit that happens in Echoes was out of Duma's control. Mila occasionally pops up here and there voice wise but she doesn't have much control either.

[Tryhard]

19 hours ago, Peaceful_User said:

The story can still be good without forcing the lord to be a commoner.

Sure, I wasn't disputing that. Just what I preferred, and I don't really get the complaints about Alm otherwise anyway.

I still like Gaiden for other reasons.

Edited January 11, 2018 by Tryhard

[Dragoncat]

50 minutes ago, Peaceful_User said:

Duma was mad in that time you know that right? Also Alm wants humanity so stand strong and that's all what Duma wanted. The shit that happens in Echoes was out of Duma's control. Mila occasionally pops up here and there voice wise but she doesn't have much control either.

I forgot that Duma wasn't always a stereotypical "the world will burn" evil god akin to Grima, you're right.

[Køkø]

27 minutes ago, Peaceful_User said:

Duma was mad in that time you know that right? Also Alm wants humanity so stand strong and that's all what Duma wanted. The shit that happens in Echoes was out of Duma's control. Mila occasionally pops up here and there voice wise but she doesn't have much control either.

I'm going against what I said about not posting page after page, but I have to ask this.  

If that's want Doma wanted, why didn't he just fuck off? Rather than going through all that convolution? Sealing Mila wasn't even necessary, things were fine before him his followers got there. 

His actions during his madness mimic those of Loptyr, the latter doing it out of hatred for humanity rather than insanity. The actions of the other dragons indicate the degeneracy leads to ferine primordiality , not establishing cults who do fucked up shit for no reason.  

Echoes depicts them both with human forms. Isn't the entire point of that to prevent madness? What happened?  

Them being dragons is a retcon anyway. Why would Naga march all the way to Jugdral to stop Loptyr from ruling over humans while allowing Doma and Mila to rule in the much closer Valentia? 

 

[Seazas]

1 hour ago, Tryhard said:

Sure, I wasn't disputing that. Just what I preferred, and I don't really get the complaints about Alm otherwise anyway.

I still like Gaiden for other reasons.

I see! I just don't agree on that viewpoint.

27 minutes ago, Dragoncat said:

I forgot that Duma wasn't always a stereotypical "the world will burn" evil god akin to Grima, you're right.

That was back in Gaiden where Duma had no actual dialogue. Even then when you defeat him it showed he wasn't like Grima with his only dialogue in the OG Gaiden.

26 minutes ago, Køkø said:

I'm going against what I said about not posting page after page, but I have to ask this.  

If that's want Doma wanted, why didn't he just fuck off? Rather than going through all that convolution? Sealing Mila wasn't even necessary, things were fine before him his followers got there. 

His actions during his madness mimic those of Loptyr, the latter doing it out of hatred for humanity rather than insanity. The actions of the other dragons indicate the degeneracy leads to ferine primordiality , not establishing cults who do fucked up shit for no reason.  

Echoes depicts them both with human forms. Isn't the entire point of that to prevent madness? What happened?  

Them being dragons is a retcon anyway. Why would Naga march all the way to Jugdral to stop Loptyr from ruling over humans while allowing Doma and Mila to rule in the much closer Valentia? 

 

Duma did it because he wanted to MAKE humans strong and he cared about them clearly so giving them a strict teaching was good for him. Plus he couldn't go back to the dragon tribe he was banished. 

You missed the lore, dragons can change forms but only dragonstones can prevent madness. Mila truly didn't have a dragonstone and neither did Duma.

Who cares? It makes them and the story way better. You're acting like Naga dismissed them. Naga gave them a falchion (one of the two. The other going to Archanea) so they can be prepared for the day they go mad. Also you said it already. Loptyr hates humans and is evil. Duma and Mila are good dragon-people and care about humanity. 

Edited January 12, 2018 by Peaceful_User

[Køkø]

1 hour ago, Peaceful_User said:

-I see! I just don't agree on that viewpoint.

That was back in Gaiden where Duma had no actual dialogue. Even then when you defeat him it showed he wasn't like Grima with his only dialogue in the OG Gaiden.

Duma did it because he wanted to MAKE humans strong and he cared about them clearly so giving them a strict teaching was good for him. Plus he couldn't go back to the dragon tribe he was banished. 

You missed the lore, dragons can change forms but only dragonstones can prevent madness. Mila truly didn't have a dragonstone and neither did Duma.

Who cares? It makes them and the story way better. You're acting like Naga dismissed them. Naga gave them a falchion (one of the two. The other going to Archanea) so they can be prepared for the day they go mad. Also you said it already. Loptyr hates humans and is evil. Duma and Mila are good dragon-people and care about humanity. 

It isn't explained, but considering humans were doing fine before either of them showed up, that was unnecessary. When I said fuck off, I meant stay out of human affairs, not go back. If he wanted humans to be independent, a religion dedicated to him should the last thing he'd want. Yet he allows it for an apparent 3000 years. 

 Dragons are only in human form because of the fear of degenerating. They're shown to be very prideful species, many seeing humans as nothing more than insects. Here's a quote from Seliph.  

“I understand now... All my life, I've heard tales of how the dragonkin feared becoming entangled in the sorry affairs of mankind. But you were different... You guided us where your kin never would.  

Human-friendly dragons are a rarity. 

 

What's that red thing in Mila's hand? Are you saying Naga allowed them to rule over humans without dragonstones,knowing they'd up like Loptyr? (Since you think that's what the degeneracy causes, despite evidence contrary) Giving them a sword to be used after all the death and bloodshed was a better option than just preventing it from the beginning? They should be consistent. If Naga's cold enough to not care about that, she shouldn't have cared about Loptyr.  

Loptyr actually didn't degenerate. He sealed his power in human host, rather than a dragonstone. He's more along the lines of Medeus, who also sealed his power and also hates humanity.

And you thinking that the retcon is better is your opinion, and that's okay. I know people who disagree. 

Edited January 12, 2018 by Køkø

[Seazas]

1 hour ago, Køkø said:

It isn't explained, but considering humans were doing fine before either of them showed up, that was unnecessary. When I said fuck off, I meant stay out of human affairs, not go back. If he wanted humans to be independent, a religion dedicated to him should the last thing he'd want. Yet he allows it for an apparent 3000 years. 

 Dragons are only in human form because of the fear of degenerating. They're shown to be very prideful species, many seeing humans as nothing more than insects. Here's a quote from Seliph.  

“I understand now... All my life, I've heard tales of how the dragonkin feared becoming entangled in the sorry affairs of mankind. But you were different... You guided us where your kin never would.  

Human-friendly dragons are a rarity. 

 

What's that red thing in Mila's hand? Are you saying Naga allowed them to rule over humans without dragonstones,knowing they'd up like Loptyr? (Since you think that's what the degeneracy causes, despite evidence contrary) Giving them a sword to be used after all the death and bloodshed was a better option than just preventing it from the beginning? They should be consistent. If Naga's cold enough to not care about that, she shouldn't have cared about Loptyr.  

Loptyr actually didn't degenerate. He sealed his power in human host, rather than a dragonstone. He's more along the lines of Medeus, who also sealed his power and also hates humanity.

And you thinking that the retcon is better is your opinion, and that's okay. I know people who disagree. 

I think it's what gives her power, it doesn't seem to be a dragonstone.

The majority would find them being dragons is better than trying to force actual gods into SOV. Lmao no thank you. 

Then why would Naga let him SPECIFICALLY rule over humans? That's destructive asf.

[Køkø]

2 minutes ago, Peaceful_User said:

I think it's what gives her power, it doesn't seem to be a dragonstone.

The majority would find them being dragons is better than trying to force actual gods into SOV. Lmao no thank you. 

Then why would Naga let him SPECIFICALLY rule over humans? That's destructive asf.

You've skipped several of my points, unsurprisingly. Look, I get that you like this game. I do as well. But acting like the flaws in this game don't exist is stupid. As much as I like FE4, I can admit that Manfroy's decision not to kill Julia was incredibly stupid and out of character.  

"I think it's what gives her power."

Orb like object that's used by a dragon in human form to channel its power? It's almost as if it's a dragonstone or something. It helps my assumption that it looks exactly like one as well. 

  

 

So hypothetically speaking, let's say it's not one. In a game that puts some effort into fleshing out its world, do you think they should have explained exactly what it is, so there's no confusion? 

There are overwhelmingly popular things that critical minds can see as vapid or flawed. I personally haven't seen this majority you're speaking of, but at the end of the day it's subjective. Most people didn't even know what the hell Gaiden was until this game came out. How could they compare? IS made gods work in Tellius, you don't think they could have did the same for Valentia?

In regards to Naga, for the same reason she let Doma/Mila do it. What exactly are you asking......?  

You can't admit that using Naga to retcon contradicts her actions in Jugdral. You can't admit that Doma's actions contradict his philosophy. You can't explain why Doma and Mila took human forms. You can't explain what's in Mila's hand. And you probably think Rudolph's plan was good too. 

 

[Seazas]

27 minutes ago, Køkø said:

You've skipped several of my points, unsurprisingly. Look, I get that you like this game. I do as well. But acting like the flaws in this game don't exist is stupid. As much as I like FE4, I can admit that Manfroy's decision not to kill Julia was incredibly stupid and out of character.  

"I think it's what gives her power."

Orb like object that's used by a dragon in human form to channel its power? It's almost as if it's a dragonstone or something. It helps my assumption that it looks exactly like one as well. 

  

 

So hypothetically speaking, let's say it's not one. In a game that puts some effort into fleshing out its world, do you think they should have explained exactly what it is, so there's no confusion? 

There are overwhelmingly popular things that critical minds can see as vapid or flawed. I personally haven't seen this majority you're speaking of, but at the end of the day it's subjective. Most people didn't even know what the hell Gaiden was until this game came out. How could they compare? IS made gods work in Tellius, you don't think they could have did the same for Valentia?

In regards to Naga, for the same reason she let Doma/Mila do it. What exactly are you asking......?  

You can't admit that using Naga to retcon contradicts her actions in Jugdral. You can't admit that Doma's actions contradict his philosophy. You can't explain why Doma and Mila took human forms. You can't explain what's in Mila's hand. And you probably think Rudolph's plan was good too. 

 

If it was it would've prevented her from going mad. Dragonstones must be extremely specific. 

No they couldn't have. It worked in Tellius because the story is revolved around it. It would be forced to make ACTUAL gods and would make zero sense. God no. Would fuck up the non-Tellius lore too, fuck that noise. Gaiden has an established story and they weren't going to ruin it by trying to explain how they're gods when divine dragon gods exist in Marth's world and make more sense. 

Duma and Mila have free will to change into human forms and so does Tiki. When they're mad (not the emotion like actual mad) that's when dragons lose all control and fully become feral and a dragon. 

Echoes has flaws but some flaws that being nitpicked are downright subjective. 

Edited January 12, 2018 by Peaceful_User

[HK Motendra]

2 hours ago, Køkø said:

It isn't explained, but considering humans were doing fine before either of them showed up, that was unnecessary. When I said fuck off, I meant stay out of human affairs, not go back. If he wanted humans to be independent, a religion dedicated to him should the last thing he'd want. Yet he allows it for an apparent 3000 years. 

All of Valentia as history sees it, started with just Mila and Duma. They together founded and shaped the land, which allowed and sustained life. That the two founded the very continent and are the sole thing that's keeping it alive implies that prior to their arrival, there was no life. Otherwise, it wouldn't be much of a banishment, and they wouldn't rightfully be called gods (despite not actually being ones) now would it?

33 minutes ago, Køkø said:

You've skipped several of my points, unsurprisingly. Look, I get that you like this game. I do as well. But acting like the flaws in this game don't exist is stupid. As much as I like FE4, I can admit that Manfroy's decision not to kill Julia was incredibly stupid and out of character.  

"I think it's what gives her power."

Orb like object that's used by a dragon in human form to channel its power? It's almost as if it's a dragonstone or something. It helps my assumption that it looks exactly like one as well. 

  

 

So hypothetically speaking, let's say it's not one. In a game that puts some effort into fleshing out its world, do you think they should have explained exactly what it is, so there's no confusion? 

There are overwhelmingly popular things that critical minds can see as vapid or flawed. I personally haven't seen this majority you're speaking of, but at the end of the day it's subjective. Most people didn't even know what the hell Gaiden was until this game came out. How could they compare? IS made gods work in Tellius, you don't think they could have did the same for Valentia?

In regards to Naga, for the same reason she let Doma/Mila do it. What exactly are you asking......?  

You can't admit that using Naga to retcon contradicts her actions in Jugdral. You can't admit that Doma's actions contradict his philosophy. You can't explain why Doma and Mila took human forms. You can't explain what's in Mila's hand. And you probably think Rudolph's plan was good too. 

As for this, while I'd agree on it being a dragonstone as well, considering that it glows within that very scene, do we know if Duma has one? Regardless, whether or not it is a dragonstone is irrelevant, considering how its not what prevents degeneration. For those that recall FE3/12, dragon-kind would be safe from degeneration, while maintaining their dragon power within stones so long as the Binding shield remained complete (recall Tiki). Gaiden/SoV occurs inbetween Shadow Dragon and MotE, where the Binding Shield remained incomplete until Marth restores it near the end. Gotoh, Xane and Bantu were not subject to degeneration for, despite being in human form, no longer having their dragonstones (well, the former two threw theirs away, that is)

Y'all need to remember that while Valentia is its own continent, it still is part of and falls in line with the Archanean continuity for being directly within the same world and should be looked at as such.

Also, I've heard the flack about Rudolf's plan many times, but I don't understand exactly what is wrong with it other than peeps pointing out all the casualties and risks involved with it and basically not having a liking to destiny plots? 

[Interdimensional Observer]

1 hour ago, Motendra said:

For those that recall FE3/12, dragon-kind would be safe from degeneration, while maintaining their dragon power within stones so long as the Binding shield remained complete (recall Tiki). Gaiden/SoV occurs inbetween Shadow Dragon and MotE, where the Binding Shield remained incomplete until Marth restores it near the end. Gotoh, Xane and Bantu were not subject to degeneration for, despite being in human form, no longer having their dragonstones (well, the former two threw theirs away, that is)

Looking at the NM fan translation, you probably mean this line:

Spoiler

Gotoh:
You are indeed correct... But 600 years have passed since it broke... The earth dragons sealed under Macedon will soon awaken. There are several hundreds--no, several thousands. I will entrust Tiki to you as well. You will find her in the room to the right. With her, you can defeat those dragons. But I must warn you. If you do not complete the Binding Shield, even Tiki will be destroyed. 

Marth:
What?! But why!? 

Gotoh:
Because she is still a child. Without the shield, she too will degenerate.. In time, she will turn into a beast and attack humanity. I took pity on her and sent her to sleep. But if the Binding Shield is restored, we will no longer have to worry. The shield will protect Tiki. Marth, I leave Tiki in your hands. Please free her from her destruction. 
 

Sounds from this the Binding Shield is only necessary for Tiki's sanity since she is a young child and thus not mature enough to handle her massive amount of power even if it is Dragonstoned away. Mila and Duma, who are far far beyond the reach of Archanea, probably aren't affected by the Shield and weren't even in Archanea when it got made.

 

1 hour ago, Motendra said:

Also, I've heard the flack about Rudolf's plan many times, but I don't understand exactly what is wrong with it other than peeps pointing out all the casualties and risks involved with it and basically not having a liking to destiny plots? 

Perhaps, I don't really know SoV's plot. But maybe you're asking basically "What is wrong with dog excrement other than being smelly, dangerous to play with due to bacteria within, and not basically liking what comes out of things at the end of eating?"? What else does there have to be wrong with it?

Don't mean to be so harsh, I'm not. But maybe people don't like the idea of plots being built around destiny working out just right when it could go awry two million ways? Maybe they wanted something more rational with less risks and needless deaths? Why didn't Rudolf himself try to be a reform emperor and force Rigel to change rather than take a chance his son could do it?

Again, I don't really know if this is what they you speak of mean, I'm only guessing.

Edited January 12, 2018 by Interdimensional Observer

[Køkø]

27 minutes ago, Peaceful_User said:

If it was it would've prevented her from going mad. Dragonstones must be extremely specific. 

No they couldn't have. It worked in Tellius because the story is revolved around it. It would be forced to make ACTUAL gods and would make zero sense. God no. Would fuck up the non-Tellius lore too, fuck that noise. Gaiden has an established story and they weren't going to ruin it by trying to explain how they're gods when divine dragon gods exist in Marth's world and make more sense. 

Duma and Mila have free will to change into human forms and so does Tiki. When they're mad (not the emotion like actual mad) that's when dragons lose all control and fully become feral and a dragon. 

Echoes has flaws but some flaws that being nitpicked are downright subjective. 

That's long way of saying oversight. What is then? I like you how just ignored my question yet again. 

I'm sorry, how does Gaiden's story not revolve around gods? They've been fighting over whose god is superior for millennia. It's relevant there than in Tellius, the latter not delving into it until the final act of its sequel. Gods are more relevant in Valentia than Tellius.  

Why would Doma and Mila change into human forms without the incentive of preserving their civility? You skipped that one too.  

The wiki is pretty reputable, and since you cite popularity as arguing point...........  

 Additionally, some Manaketes are capable of using their great powers outside their dragon forms, such as Mila blessing the lands of Zofia, only using their dragon forms against particularly dangerous opponents.

It outright states that Echoes Mila is a manakete.

I've never seen anything about dragons being able to change into humans without becoming Manaketes. If you can show where says that, feel free to.  

 

These aren't nitpicks, they're massive holes in the narrative.

I have no idea why I am doing this with you. Is there a reason you skip over my questions? Can you not see or understand them? Or do you just not care? 

2 minutes ago, Motendra said:

All of Valentia as history sees it, started with just Mila and Duma. They together founded and shaped the land, which allowed and sustained life. That the two founded the very continent and are the sole thing that's keeping it alive implies that prior to their arrival, there was no life. Otherwise, it wouldn't be much of a banishment, and they wouldn't rightfully be called gods (despite not actually being ones) now would it?

As for this, while I'd agree on it being a dragonstone as well, considering that it glows within that very scene, do we know if Duma has one? Regardless, whether or not it is a dragonstone is irrelevant, considering how its not what prevents degeneration. For those that recall FE3/12, dragon-kind would be safe from degeneration, while maintaining their dragon power within stones so long as the Binding shield remained complete (recall Tiki). Gaiden/SoV occurs inbetween Shadow Dragon and MotE, where the Binding Shield remained incomplete until Marth restores it near the end. Gotoh, Xane and Bantu were not subject to degeneration for, despite being in human form, no longer having their dragonstones (well, the former two threw theirs away, that is)

Y'all need to remember that while Valentia is its own continent, it still is part of and falls in line with the Archanean continuity for being directly within the same world and should be looked at as such.

Also, I've heard the flack about Rudolf's plan many times, but I don't understand exactly what is wrong with it other than peeps pointing out all the casualties and risks involved with it and basically not having a liking to destiny plots? 

"All of Valentia as history sees it, started with just Mila and Duma. They together founded and shaped the land, which allowed and sustained life. That the two founded the very continent and are the sole thing that's keeping it alive implies that prior to their arrival, there was no life." 

Where does it say that there was no life prior to their arrival?

 "And they wouldn't rightfully be called gods (despite not actually being ones) now would it?" 

Naga, the 12 Crusaders,their respective dragons, Anankos, and rest of the Fates dragons are referred to as gods, despite the fact that they're not. (Anankos is ridiculously overpowered lore wise though.) It's been shown that the term "god" in Fire Emblem can simply mean a powerful entity, not a omniscient, omnipotent creator of life.   

 

Good point about the Binding Shield. However Bantu and Tiki are able to use their dragonstones just fine while the Binding Shield isn't intact. That thing was broken for 614 years, and the Valentian siblings are just now starting to degenerate? It doesn't actually say when Doma went mad, but it seems his cult and their practices were established long before that. Echoes states that Judah 147 years old. I doubt that Doma's madness has anything to do with that like the other guy states. Especially considering the degeneration brings on  a ferine mindset, not to mention the fact that Doma supposedly believes in human autonomy. 

In regards to Rudolph's plan, I don't where to begin. I can link you to some other people though. 

https://www.gamefaqs.com/boards/204443-fire-emblem-echoes-shadows-of-valentia/75403282

[Køkø]

5 minutes ago, Køkø said:

That's long way of saying oversight. What is then? I like you how just ignored my question yet again. 

I'm sorry, how does Gaiden's story not revolve around gods? They've been fighting over whose god is superior for millennia. It's relevant there than in Tellius, the latter not delving into it until the final act of its sequel. Gods are more relevant in Valentia than Tellius.  

Why would Doma and Mila change into human forms without the incentive of preserving their civility? You skipped that one too.  

The wiki is pretty reputable, and since you cite popularity as arguing point...........  

 Additionally, some Manaketes are capable of using their great powers outside their dragon forms, such as Mila blessing the lands of Zofia, only using their dragon forms against particularly dangerous opponents.

It outright states that Echoes Mila is a manakete.

I've never seen anything about dragons being able to change into humans without becoming Manaketes. If you can show where says that, feel free to.  

 

These aren't nitpicks, they're massive holes in the narrative.

I have no idea why I am doing this with you. Is there a reason you skip over my questions? Can you not see or understand them? Or do you just not care? 

"All of Valentia as history sees it, started with just Mila and Duma. They together founded and shaped the land, which allowed and sustained life. That the two founded the very continent and are the sole thing that's keeping it alive implies that prior to their arrival, there was no life." 

Where does it say that there was no life prior to their arrival?

 "And they wouldn't rightfully be called gods (despite not actually being ones) now would it?" 

Naga, the 12 Crusaders,their respective dragons, Anankos, and rest of the Fates dragons are referred to as gods, despite the fact that they're not. (Anankos is ridiculously overpowered lore wise though.) It's been shown that the term "god" in Fire Emblem can simply mean a powerful entity, not a omniscient, omnipotent creator of life.   

 

Good point about the Binding Shield. However Bantu and Tiki are able to use their dragonstones just fine while the Binding Shield isn't intact. That thing was broken for 614 years, and the Valentian siblings are just now starting to degenerate? It doesn't actually say when Doma went mad, but it seems his cult and their practices were established long before that. Echoes states that Judah 147 years old. I doubt that Doma's madness has anything to do with that like the other guy states. Especially considering the degeneration brings on  a ferine mindset, not to mention the fact that Doma supposedly believes in human autonomy. 

In regards to Rudolph's plan, I don't where to begin. I can link you to some other people though. 

https://www.gamefaqs.com/boards/204443-fire-emblem-echoes-shadows-of-valentia/75403282

The typos were bothering me, but it won't let me edit. 

*it 

*more 

 

[Interdimensional Observer]

2 minutes ago, Køkø said:

It's been shown that the term "god" in Fire Emblem can simply mean a powerful entity, not a omniscient, omnipotent creator of life.   

And it is worth adding the conception of a god as always having to be omniscient, omnipotent creator of life applies mostly to the Abrahamic and other Monotheistic traditions like Sikhism and Zoroastrianism.

Japan, a Shinto-Buddhist land by religion and the place where FE gets made, features no such deities. Some are surely more powerful than others, but none are any of those things. The Buddhas didn't create life- they only found the way to overcome suffering (and also get a bunch of miraculous powers). In Shinto- Izanami and Izanagi created Japan, but they weren't the absolute first beings to exist nor do they rule the lives of the living. Other lesser deities do that, and Amaterasu rules in heaven.

Then we even have the deification of human beings, which is relevant given we're talking about elevating dragons to god status in FE. Taira no Masakado was just a warrior-landlord in the Heian period who ended up on the wrong side of the authorities and got killed for it. After his death, he was transformed into a noble rebel of imperial ambitions, and later the guardian deity of Tokyo where he continues to be worshipped to this day. The scholar Michizane has also become a god of scholarship and lightning.

Then we turn to other religions, like Hinduism. Where many groups declare their favored deity infinite, omnipresent and omnipotent- for worshippers of Shiva it is Shiva, for Vishnu/Krishna/Rama lovers, it is he, for SrI/Lakshmi/Kali/Durga worshippers, it's that goddess. And beneath them you get other gods. Rama did befriend Hanuman the ever-beloved monkey god whose awesome powers led to the creation of the literary Sun Wukong of the famed Journey to the West.

But enough on this Religions 101 diatribe.

[Køkø]

14 minutes ago, Interdimensional Observer said:

And it is worth adding the conception of a god as always having to be omniscient, omnipotent creator of life applies mostly to the Abrahamic and other Monotheistic traditions like Sikhism and Zoroastrianism.

Japan, a Shinto-Buddhist land by religion and the place where FE gets made, features no such deities. Some are surely more powerful than others, but none are any of those things. The Buddhas didn't create life- they only found the way to overcome suffering (and also get a bunch of miraculous powers). In Shinto- Izanami and Izanagi created Japan, but they weren't the absolute first beings to exist nor do they rule the lives of the living. Other lesser deities do that, and Amaterasu rules in heaven.

Then we even have the deification of human beings, which is relevant given we're talking about elevating dragons to god status in FE. Taira no Masakado was just a warrior-landlord in the Heian period who ended up on the wrong side of the authorities and got killed for it. After his death, he was transformed into a noble rebel of imperial ambitions, and later the guardian deity of Tokyo where he continues to be worshipped to this day. The scholar Michizane has also become a god of scholarship and lightning.

Then we turn to other religions, like Hinduism. Where many groups declare their favored deity infinite, omnipresent and omnipotent- for worshippers of Shiva it is Shiva, for Vishnu/Krishna/Rama lovers, it is he, for SrI/Lakshmi/Kali/Durga worshippers, it's that goddess. And beneath them you get other gods. Rama did befriend Hanuman the ever-beloved monkey god whose awesome powers led to the creation of the literary Sun Wukong of the famed Journey to the West.

But enough on this Religions 101 diatribe.

True, and thanks for the history lesson. 

I only mentioned life creation because Montendra did. The closest thing we have to that is Ashera/Yune. But their tale is pretty nebulous, their origin story seems more like in game lore rather than an actual explanation of how they came to be. The whole Zunanma thing never sat right with me either.

Edited January 12, 2018 by Køkø

[Interdimensional Observer]

7 minutes ago, Køkø said:

I only mentioned life creation because Montendra did. The closest thing we have to that is Ashera/Yune. But their tale is pretty nebulous, their origin story seems more like in game lore rather than an actual explanation of how they came to be. The whole Zunanma thing never sat right with me either.

Well it is Yune relays the tale of Ashunera, and Yune being half of her should share in at least some of the Goddess of Dawn's memories, which is as reliable a source as we could possibly get. A primordial chaos of water isn't unheard of in mythology. I know of at least one Native American mythos that begins that way, and Egyptian mythology across time and place (as in they couldn't have shared the story) has one example as well. Why Shintoism- yet again distant from the other two places, has Izanami and Izanagi creating the Japanese Islands, if not the entire world, in a vast body of water seemingly devoid of other things.

 

The Zunanma, well according to RD 4-Final-3, they arose from the creatures Ashunera created.

Relevant text from RD:

Spoiler

Yune:
“In the very beginning of this world… there was only water, until one day a girl appeared. The girl was very clever, and she forged the first land…then she made trees and flowers, and then she created beings. Fish, beasts and birds… She created so many creatures in one go.”

Tibarn:
“The story of the grand creation? Heard it. Wake me when it’s over.”

Ike:
“The girl was you, right, Yune? Or are you talking about Ashera?”

Yune:
“Both, really…and neither, actually. At first, the girl was excited by her new world, and she thought of little else. Then she started feeling lonely. Everyone, every being she’d created, was different from her. Not a single person that could truly understand her. All alone, she grew sadder and sadder, crying for thousands of years. Then some creatures began to grow and change, becoming more clever and sophisticated. They tried to comfort the girl and eventually grew closer to her… That was the birth of the Zunanma. They were your ancestors…beorc, laguz, everyone.”

However the Tellius Recollection artbooks give a totally contradictory account of the Zunanma, saying that after the goddess appeared in the water and made the land, she created the Zunanma "in her image". Either way, she did not create the Beorc and Laguz, they evolved out of the Zunanma.

Look at the History of Tellius here for the relevant text.

 

And sadly, while I don't know what the Japanese says since we don't have the Extended Script for this Chapter on SF, the English of 4-3 says this:

Spoiler

Sanaki:
“I don’t understand. How can you be a goddess and not know? I thought gods were perfect beings who knew everything!”

Yune:
“Gods? Perfect? Where did you get that idea? You haven’t met a lot of gods, have you?”

Sanaki:
“Well, no. But divinity created life from nothing! Surely only perfect beings could do that!”

Yune:
“We did create life, and can do many things that you creatures of flesh can’t. But that doesn’t make us perfect. It just means we can make mistakes on a much grander scale… We’re not what you’ve been taught, and we’re much closer to you skin-wearers than some will admit. But we do make mistakes… Sometimes we make terrible mistakes. Sometimes all it takes is one emotional outburst, and the entire world is drowning underwater!”

The plural here could just be referring to Yune, Ashera, and their prior unified self. Or she could mean that there are other actual gods besides them. RD does have actual Spirits that show up in the final two fights, and Spirits are pretty close to being Gods.

To turn to Shinto again, there is the idea of Kami in the religion- a Kami can mean any lowly spirit, any high deity. It can be the deity Inari, the spirits living in the tree outside your window, they can even lurk in your chef's knife (there are Pokemon based on bronze mirrors and bells gaining lives of their own- something based on Shinto folklore), they're basically everywhere and anywhere. Hence if the lowly Spirits exist in Tellius, and they do, the door is open to higher deities that we would call true deities and not just mortals pretending to be deities actually existing there.

Not to mention that besides powers, and immorality/being harder to kill, what separates a god from a mortal? 

[Køkø]

42 minutes ago, Interdimensional Observer said:

Well it is Yune relays the tale of Ashunera, and Yune being half of her should share in at least some of the Goddess of Dawn's memories, which is as reliable a source as we could possibly get. A primordial chaos of water isn't unheard of in mythology. I know of at least one Native American mythos that begins that way, and Egyptian mythology across time and place (as in they couldn't have shared the story) has one example as well. Why Shintoism- yet again distant from the other two places, has Izanami and Izanagi creating the Japanese Islands, if not the entire world, in a vast body of water seemingly devoid of other things.

 

The Zunanma, well according to RD 4-Final-3, they arose from the creatures Ashunera created.

Relevant text from RD:

  Reveal hidden contents

Yune:
“In the very beginning of this world… there was only water, until one day a girl appeared. The girl was very clever, and she forged the first land…then she made trees and flowers, and then she created beings. Fish, beasts and birds… She created so many creatures in one go.”

Tibarn:
“The story of the grand creation? Heard it. Wake me when it’s over.”

Ike:
“The girl was you, right, Yune? Or are you talking about Ashera?”

Yune:
“Both, really…and neither, actually. At first, the girl was excited by her new world, and she thought of little else. Then she started feeling lonely. Everyone, every being she’d created, was different from her. Not a single person that could truly understand her. All alone, she grew sadder and sadder, crying for thousands of years. Then some creatures began to grow and change, becoming more clever and sophisticated. They tried to comfort the girl and eventually grew closer to her… That was the birth of the Zunanma. They were your ancestors…beorc, laguz, everyone.”

However the Tellius Recollection artbooks give a totally contradictory account of the Zunanma, saying that after the goddess appeared in the water and made the land, she created the Zunanma "in her image". Either way, she did not create the Beorc and Laguz, they evolved out of the Zunanma.

Look at the History of Tellius here for the relevant text.

 

And sadly, while I don't know what the Japanese says since we don't have the Extended Script for this Chapter on SF, the English of 4-3 says this:

  Reveal hidden contents

Sanaki:
“I don’t understand. How can you be a goddess and not know? I thought gods were perfect beings who knew everything!”

Yune:
“Gods? Perfect? Where did you get that idea? You haven’t met a lot of gods, have you?”

Sanaki:
“Well, no. But divinity created life from nothing! Surely only perfect beings could do that!”

Yune:
“We did create life, and can do many things that you creatures of flesh can’t. But that doesn’t make us perfect. It just means we can make mistakes on a much grander scale… We’re not what you’ve been taught, and we’re much closer to you skin-wearers than some will admit. But we do make mistakes… Sometimes we make terrible mistakes. Sometimes all it takes is one emotional outburst, and the entire world is drowning underwater!”

The plural here could just be referring to Yune, Ashera, and their prior unified self. Or she could mean that there are other actual gods besides them. RD does have actual Spirits that show up in the final two fights, and Spirits are pretty close to being Gods.

To turn to Shinto again, there is the idea of Kami in the religion- a Kami can mean any lowly spirit, any high deity. It can be the deity Inari, the spirits living in the tree outside your window, they can even lurk in your chef's knife (there are Pokemon based on bronze mirrors and bells gaining lives of their own- something based on Shinto folklore), they're basically everywhere and anywhere. Hence if the lowly Spirits exist in Tellius, and they do, the door is open to higher deities that we would call true deities and not just mortals pretending to be deities actually existing there.

Not to mention that besides powers, and immorality/being harder to kill, what separates a god from a mortal? 

The idea of such a powerful being taking a human form bothers me, you can just imagine how I feel about one originating in it. I mean of all the physical forms, why human? Maybe that's just me. 

I realize that it's consistent with the themes of real religions, but I think some more liberty could have been taken.   

 

"Not to mention that besides powers, and immorality/being harder to kill, what separates a god from a mortal?" 

I think that immortality would be the number one difference. Powers,immorality, and being hard to kill is obtainable by humans and dragons alike. (Gharnef,Anankos) 

I also wish they would have explained the spirit charmer thing more, maybe that's related to your "Spirits" theory? Ashera/Yune don't seem that powerful. (In a blip you out of existence kinda way.) Anankos seems more powerful by comparison, with his dimension bending and time warping. He also seems to be capable of creating life, evidenced with his infinite army tree spawning breath.   

I mean they did supposedly flood the entire planet, but that's nebulous as well. There's no mention of any other place outside of Tellius, how could they know that? They didn't even know Hatari was out there until Radiant Dawn. In Ike's ending, he's stated to disappear and never be seen again, journeying to "lands unknown". Whether this is on and off the continent is unclear, but it's something to think about.

[Køkø]

*and

[HK Motendra]

10 hours ago, Interdimensional Observer said:

Looking at the NM fan translation, you probably mean this line:

  Reveal hidden contents

Gotoh:
You are indeed correct... But 600 years have passed since it broke... The earth dragons sealed under Macedon will soon awaken. There are several hundreds--no, several thousands. I will entrust Tiki to you as well. You will find her in the room to the right. With her, you can defeat those dragons. But I must warn you. If you do not complete the Binding Shield, even Tiki will be destroyed. 

Marth:
What?! But why!? 

Gotoh:
Because she is still a child. Without the shield, she too will degenerate.. In time, she will turn into a beast and attack humanity. I took pity on her and sent her to sleep. But if the Binding Shield is restored, we will no longer have to worry. The shield will protect Tiki. Marth, I leave Tiki in your hands. Please free her from her destruction. 
 

Sounds from this the Binding Shield is only necessary for Tiki's sanity since she is a young child, and Naga's daughter at that- so she has Hydrogen-headed ICBM levels of innate power when most dragons are just Uranium-loaded B52 Bombers (aka obsolete due to ICBMs, but still very deadly). Mila and Duma, who are far far beyond the reach of Archanea, probably aren't affected by the Shield and weren't even in Archanea when it got made.

Hmm, that was mostly conjecture on my part, but basically, the stronger the dragon, the more susceptible they are to madness/going wild? I'll buy that, I suppose.

10 hours ago, Køkø said:

"All of Valentia as history sees it, started with just Mila and Duma. They together founded and shaped the land, which allowed and sustained life. That the two founded the very continent and are the sole thing that's keeping it alive implies that prior to their arrival, there was no life." 

Where does it say that there was no life prior to their arrival?

 "And they wouldn't rightfully be called gods (despite not actually being ones) now would it?" 

Naga, the 12 Crusaders,their respective dragons, Anankos, and rest of the Fates dragons are referred to as gods, despite the fact that they're not. (Anankos is ridiculously overpowered lore wise though.) It's been shown that the term "god" in Fire Emblem can simply mean a powerful entity, not a omniscient, omnipotent creator of life.   

If it is not outright stated stated, it is implied by the opening for the game, given that there is no record of life before Mila and Duma, along with Jedah saying that Valentia is unable to sustain life without them.

And is that not what Mila and Duma are? I don't see what is to be argued there, other than terminology. I am well aware that they aren't actual gods, but are revered as such by the people. Whether or not the term "God" is accurate doesn't change that they are higher beings, which is where I was going at, but kept the word God simply cause that's what man sees them as.

10 hours ago, Interdimensional Observer said:

Perhaps, I don't really know SoV's plot. But maybe you're asking basically "What is wrong with dog excrement other than being smelly, dangerous to play with due to bacteria within, and not basically liking what comes out of things at the end of eating?"? What else does there have to be wrong with it?

Don't mean to be so harsh, I'm not. But maybe people don't like the idea of plots being built around destiny working out just right when it could go awry two million ways? Maybe they wanted something more rational with less risks and needless deaths? Why didn't Rudolf himself try to be a reform emperor and force Rigel to change rather than take a chance his son could do it?

Again, I don't really know if this is what they you speak of mean, I'm only guessing.

10 hours ago, Køkø said:

In regards to Rudolph's plan, I don't where to begin. I can link you to some other people though. 

https://www.gamefaqs.com/boards/204443-fire-emblem-echoes-shadows-of-valentia/75403282

The thing about it is, while I cannot deny all the things that could have went wrong, its more so that I do not see any other alternative that would have been better; twas a n act of necessity in order to bring man to action. The people have relied on the "gods" for as long as they can remember. Maybe the Rigelians could if they haven't already, but to convince the Zofians the same would be impossible due to their upbringing of always relying on Mila to handle everything for them. Especially given that Lima is dead, so negotiating is already out of the question for a new world order. It'd be possible to do so if and only if he were to wrestle control of the entire continent under him, but then the question lies of whether the Zofians would accept him.  The terrors, however, I don't think anyone could have seen coming, though I believe that they are a symptom to Duma's madness for apparently having some amount of dominion over them to be able to summon them at will. That, or they are a result of the imbalance of the natural order between Mila and Duma. Were that the case, if they didn't show up now, they'd have started appearing eventually when Mila  and Duma's own madness ruins all of Valentia. 

I'm unsure if I'm explaining it well, but there is a reply to that very thread that sums it up:

Quote

 

Welcome to FE, where plots don't make sense when you think too much.
Anyway, there's no other way. Outright killing Mila would just cause a ceaseless war. So he sealed her instead and didn't tell the Zofians. Then he invaded to make them grow some nuts. Did it cause terrible things? Yes but that was going to happen anyway because Duma was mad and Jedah decided he should listen to a crazy dragon. This is also why he sent Alm away. It's easier to protect him if he's all the way in nowhere. If the Faithful find him, you just keep running. That is what they did with Celica too, she left Ram when Slayde found her. It would've been harder to protect him in Rigel where the Faithful is more influent. Rudolph has resources sure but Jedah has a GOD. You can't even touch Jedah with his Duma Daddy protection. If Rudolph waged war against the Faithful he'd die due to crap Res and a giant dragon superboss. The people also wouldn't accept that Duma and Mila are going mad either, they'd just declare him a blasphemer and overthrow him because life is easier with the god's blessings. Literally no one knows that the gods are mad or would believe that. Even Celica has a hard time believing that and she's supposed to be a priestess.

 

Basically I see it as, Rudolf set it up so that Valentia would still have a chance either way. The only question being which would be the one credited to do it: a perceived as tyrant emperor of Rigel like himself or his son, the yet to be champion of Zofia who is also his son. Theoretically, Rudolf could just do it himself, but it'd be the wrong way to end things due to how history will see it. The only thing withstanding is the Rigelian people accepting Alm, which I don't quite have an answer for.

I do hope I'm making a modicum of sense.

[DragonFlames]

9 hours ago, Køkø said:

The idea of such a powerful being taking a human form bothers me, you can just imagine how I feel about one originating in it. I mean of all the physical forms, why human?

Because humanity consists of mostly arrogant f***s. Pinnacle of evolution? God created us in His image? That ring any bells?

On a more serious note, I think they (the writers / creators) picked a human form, because human forms are more relatable to us, since we are also human.
As someone (I don't remember who it was) said: "I can't relate to miasma." (in the context of Final Fantasy having evil clouds as (final) bosses).

As for the rest of the argument currently going on, I'd like to give my two cents on some general aspects. Please keep in mind that I am in no way accusing you or anyone else who reads this specifically. This is about some things I have noticed during recent discussions.

There are some things in the fantasy genre that we have to just accept or everything falls apart.
Like, if we are willing to go down that rabbit hole, why can people in the FE universe use magic? That gets never explained either. How can someone just "retreat" after having a giant sword shoved through their lungs five times in rapid succession? How do skills work, anyway? Why does shouting some badass quote and striking an enemy in a slightly different way heal your injuries? Why can simple staves heal injuries? What kind of injuries does someone sustain if they take damage in FE? What are Wyverns, anyway? Are they similar to dragons / laguz? Are they just normal animals? And if they are, why are dragons apparently hyper intelligent when they are in fact biologically related (or should be, anyway)? Why do Wvyern Riders have to use axes if their mounts can apparently breathe fire (see some of Cherche's supports in Awakening)? How does a Pegasus fly?
I could go on, but you see where that leads us, right?
It's the same thing in SOV. Almost every "plothole" / "contrivance" can be explained with hints thrown around in in-game dialogue and a bit of contextual thinking, especially so in the case of Celica's supposed "stupidity". That crap is so self-explanatory when considering the context of the story and lore, yet there are people who INSIST that it's a case of bad writing when it actually isn't and some are just too lazy / unable to look at the facts given to them about the world and the characters. This, I think, is due to a little thing I like to call "reader / player arrogance" where the readers / players know more than the actual in-universe characters and then call said characters out for their lack of knowledge about things they have zero possible way to know, like the fact that there obviously will be another way to stop Jedah and Duma since that's how these types of stories go. Celica, however, doesn't KNOW these types of stories, so she doesn't know that there is an alternative to the things she tries to do.
As I stated before, I'm not accusing you specifically, but sometimes I feel like people haven't been to many literature classes in school. Analyzing and interpreting the story and filling in stuff for oneself is part of the experience of any given tale.
Why do people hate exposition and hand holding so much if they are then going to complain that not every little detail is given to them?

I agree that we all should keep thinking critically, but being overly nitpicky isn't exactly the way to go either, in my opinion. Yes, there are flaws in SOVs story. Yes, there are flaws in RD and PoRs lore. But questioning every teeny tiny little thing, no matter how irrelevant (like why gods / dragons would pick a human form) will serve nothing other than ruining the enjoyment, I feel.

Edited January 12, 2018 by DragonFlames