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(SOV Story Spoilers) In my opinion, Alm doesn't undermine any theme of Echoes to me.


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1 hour ago, Motendra said:

Hmm, that was mostly conjecture on my part, but basically, the stronger the dragon, the more susceptible they are to madness/going wild? I'll buy that, I suppose.

If it is not outright stated stated, it is implied by the opening for the game, given that there is no record of life before Mila and Duma, along with Jedah saying that Valentia is unable to sustain life without them.

And is that not what Mila and Duma are? I don't see what is to be argued there, other than terminology. I am well aware that they aren't actual gods, but are revered as such by the people. Whether or not the term "God" is accurate doesn't change that they are higher beings, which is where I was going at, but kept the word God simply cause that's what man sees them as.

The thing about it is, while I cannot deny all the things that could have went wrong, its more so that I do not see any other alternative that would have been better; twas a n act of necessity in order to bring man to action. The people have relied on the "gods" for as long as they can remember. Maybe the Rigelians could if they haven't already, but to convince the Zofians the same would be impossible due to their upbringing of always relying on Mila to handle everything for them. Especially given that Lima is dead, so negotiating is already out of the question for a new world order. It'd be possible to do so if and only if he were to wrestle control of the entire continent under him, but then the question lies of whether the Zofians would accept him.  The terrors, however, I don't think anyone could have seen coming, though I believe that they are a symptom to Duma's madness for apparently having some amount of dominion over them to be able to summon them at will. That, or they are a result of the imbalance of the natural order between Mila and Duma. Were that the case, if they didn't show up now, they'd have started appearing eventually when Mila  and Duma's own madness ruins all of Valentia. 

I'm unsure if I'm explaining it well, but there is a reply to that very thread that sums it up:

Basically I see it as, Rudolf set it up so that Valentia would still have a chance either way. The only question being which would be the one credited to do it: a perceived as tyrant emperor of Rigel like himself or his son, the yet to be champion of Zofia who is also his son. Theoretically, Rudolf could just do it himself, but it'd be the wrong way to end things due to how history will see it. The only thing withstanding is the Rigelian people accepting Alm, which I don't quite have an answer for.

I do hope I'm making a modicum of sense.

"Hmm, that was mostly conjecture on my part, but basically, the stronger the dragon, the more susceptible they are to madness/going wild? I'll buy that, I suppose." 

So if that's the case, and if Doma and Mila are powerful as you say, they should have gone mad the instant the Shield was broken. Not 600+ years later. 

 

"If it is not outright stated stated, it is implied by the opening for the game, given that there is no record of life before Mila and Duma, along with Jedah saying that Valentia is unable to sustain life without them."

You're trusting in Judah's word? Is that you Celica? Seriously, the blue cackling Satan worshiper is the last person to trust. Doma and Mila are said to be equals, the former getting whooped by Naga (and later Alm), who isn't said to be able to perform deity level actions like you allege the Valentian siblings are capable of. She was simply the most powerful dragon of her time. If Doma/Mila are of the same ilk as Naga and the other dragons, what makes them so special? Why would Valentian life die without them when the other continents are just fine? Archanea? Elibe? Jugdral? It's even implied that dragons are not even native to the latter.   

Rigel and Sofia are much younger than you'd expect, being only about 200 years old. According to Echoes they've been doing this for millennia. So that means there were other civilizations, it's unclear whether all of them were influenced by the "gods" or not. Whether they existed before the "gods" arrival is not stated, but 3000 years is hardly enough time for humans to advance from single cellular life and create civilizations. Maybe I'm being too realistic. 

 

If you can't see why Rudolph's plan is incredibly convoluted and stupid, I don't know how I can convince you. I've yet to provide my own rebuttal, so here's an easy one. Rudolph and Rigel took down Mila effortlessly. Doma and Mila are equals. Why didn't he just seal Doma afterwards? Why didn't Doma just fuck off from the beginning, if he's so pro human autonomy?

 

 

31 minutes ago, DragonFlames said:

Because humanity consists of mostly arrogant f***s. Pinnacle of evolution? God created us in His image? That ring any bells?

On a more serious note, I think they (the writers / creators) picked a human form, because human forms are more relatable to us, since we are also human.
As someone (I don't remember who it was) said: "I can't relate to miasma." (in the context of Final Fantasy having evil clouds as (final) bosses).

As for the rest of the argument currently going on, I'd like to give my two cents on some general aspects. Please keep in mind that I am in no way accusing you or anyone else who reads this specifically. This is about some things I have noticed during recent discussions.

There are some things in the fantasy genre that we have to just accept or everything falls apart.
Like, if we are willing to go down that rabbit hole, why can people in the FE universe use magic? That gets never explained either. How can someone just "retreat" after having a giant sword shoved through their lungs five times in rapid succession? How do skills work, anyway? Why does shouting some badass quote and striking an enemy in a slightly different way heal your injuries? Why can simple staves heal injuries? What kind of injuries does someone sustain if they take damage in FE? What are Wyverns, anyway? Are they similar to dragons / laguz? Are they just normal animals? And if they are, why are dragons apparently hyper intelligent when they are in fact biologically related (or should be, anyway)? Why do Wvyern Riders have to use axes if their mounts can apparently breathe fire (see some of Cherche's supports in Awakening)? How does a Pegasus fly?
I could go on, but you see where that leads us, right?
It's the same thing in SOV. Almost every "plothole" / "contrivance" can be explained with hints thrown around in in-game dialogue and a bit of contextual thinking, especially so in the case of Celica's supposed "stupidity". That crap is so self-explanatory when considering the context of the story and lore, yet there are people who INSIST that it's a case of bad writing when it actually isn't and some are just too lazy / unable to look at the facts given to them about the world and the characters. This, I think, is due to a little thing I like to call "reader / player arrogance" where the readers / players know more than the actual in-universe characters and then call said characters out for their lack of knowledge about things they have zero possible way to know, like the fact that there obviously will be another way to stop Jedah and Duma since that's how these types of stories go. Celica, however, doesn't KNOW these types of stories, so she doesn't know that there is an alternative to the things she tries to do.
As I stated before, I'm not accusing you specifically, but sometimes I feel like people haven't been to many literature classes in school. Analyzing and interpreting the story and filling in stuff for oneself is part of the experience of any given tale.
Why do people hate exposition and hand holding so much if they are then going to complain that not every little detail is given to them?

I agree that we all should keep thinking critically, but being overly nitpicky isn't exactly the way to go either, in my opinion. Yes, there are flaws in SOVs story. Yes, there are flaws in RD and PoRs lore. But questioning every teeny tiny little thing, no matter how irrelevant (like why gods / dragons would pick a human form) will serve nothing other than ruining the enjoyment, I feel.

Don't get me wrong, I'm not a stickler. My suspension of disbelief is generally okay when it comes to gameplay. I'm not saying things have to be 100% realistic, they just have to make sense.  

 

"On a more serious note, I think they (the writers / creators) picked a human form, because human forms are more relatable to us, since we are also human.
As someone (I don't remember who it was) said: "I can't relate to miasma." (in the context of Final Fantasy having evil clouds as (final) bosses)." 

That's the point. They're gods, humans ingame and out, are not. You're not supposed to be able to relate, or even comprehend in some media.  

"Like, if we are willing to go down that rabbit hole, why can people in the FE universe use magic?" 

I can think of many ways to logicalize it. Just be patient.

"What are Wyverns, anyway? Are they similar to dragons / laguz? Are they just normal animals? And if they are, why are dragons apparently hyper intelligent when they are in fact biologically related (or should be, anyway)? Why do Wvyern Riders have to use axes if their mounts can apparently breathe fire (see some of Cherche's supports in Awakening)? How does a Pegasus fly?"

I imagine FE wyverns are to dragons, what chimpanzees are to humans. And dragon laguz are not the same as the other dragons. It's fairly evident in their appearance, notice how they're bipedal and have much more humanesque physiques? They're much closer to beorc/humans than real dragons are. Their "human" forms are their true forms with the dragon form being a temporary state. The opposite is true for manaketes, but both can breed with humans, strangely. They could breathe fire since FE3, but that doesn't necessarily mean all wyverns are the same. And all wyvern riders aren't axe locked. (Now that was a nitpick on my part) In regards to pegasi, with their wings? I find them more acceptable then wing-backed humans, seeing as the arms would be a better place. And the fact that laguz morph with their clothing annoys me too.

 

"It's the same thing in SOV. Almost every "plothole" / "contrivance" can be explained with hints thrown around in in-game dialogue and a bit of contextual thinking, especially so in the case of Celica's supposed "stupidity". This, I think, is due to a little thing I like to call "reader / player arrogance" where the readers / players know more than the actual in-universe characters and then call said characters out for their lack of knowledge about things they have zero possible way to know, like the fact that there obviously will be another way to stop Jedah and Duma since that's how these types of stories go. Celica, however, doesn't KNOW these types of stories, so she doesn't know that there is an alternative to the things she tries to do." 

In regards to Celica, willingly giving your soul to the blue genocidal maniac and his demonic god is always a bad idea. Especially when they've done nothing but try to kill you and everything you love the entire game. Her "death" scene was utterly stupid and unnecessary. She's lord in a remake of game in a series that generally does not kill it's important characters.  (RIP Sigurd) 

The real kicker is that it's a step down from the original. Celica being a dumbass who needed to be saved all the time was not in Gaiden. (Don't even get me started on Conrad.) She only needed to be saved once, and that was after saving Alm. She did not give her soul to the psychos, and fought right up until Alm came to save them. It doesn't help that most of the other females suffer from damsel syndrome as well, but Gaiden Celica subverted this. At least Sonya,May,Genny,Catria and Palla are still okay.

"Why do people hate exposition and hand holding so much if they are then going to complain that not every little detail is given to them?" 

There's a difference between showing and telling. I don't think most people have a problem with detail itself, they just want that information to be organic.

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13 hours ago, Køkø said:

The idea of such a powerful being taking a human form bothers me, you can just imagine how I feel about one originating in it. I mean of all the physical forms, why human? Maybe that's just me. 

 

I get this. Call it the Anthropic Principle, humans tend to envision things in human terms with human features because we're human and its what we know the most and value the most. If beavers had a god, would we be surprised it had beaver features? Not all religions do this, Judaism and Islam, while using human metaphors for God, make the explicit point that "God is in no way a human or earthly or mortal at all, and to think otherwise is heresy of the highest order like those Jesus freaks (no offense to Christianity)".

IS could have gone with something else admittedly- nothing forces Ashunera to be human formed. And they could always say she was first a giant fish monster or something totally incomprehensible to the mortal mind who took humanoid form to be more approachable to the Zunanma- that is a popular excuse in other video games.

 

13 hours ago, Køkø said:

I also wish they would have explained the spirit charmer thing more, maybe that's related to your "Spirits" theory? Ashera/Yune don't seem that powerful. (In a blip you out of existence kinda way.) Anankos seems more powerful by comparison, with his dimension bending and time warping. He also seems to be capable of creating life, evidenced with his infinite army tree spawning breath.   

Well admittedly we're playing a video game where we fight a god. If said Ashera could just say, "You don't exist anymore." and everyone went poof out of existence, then there goes any hope of the heroes defeating her. You have to handicap a god somehow, or really really really build up the heroes' power.

Anankos shouldn't have lost given that dimension travel, that time warping, that life creation, that Valla Curse, and his power to manipulate people. But Anankos does, because despite being of enough sanity to control a Metal King Slime masquerading as Garon and make coherent sentences for a decade or more with it, and also control Gunter and Takumi depending on the route, he is also degenerating and insane so he can't bring all his assets to bear on the forces of light in rational manner.

Anankos is extremely powerful, possibly outdoing Ashera, but he wastes it. For some, Anankos being so strong yet so stupid is partly expectable of Fates's writing. They layer power upon power upon this dragon trying to make him out as a intimidating threat, but it backfires given how illogical he is. Gharnef and Julius and Nergal were all similar, but all they had was massive power and invincibility, they had less tools, significant tools, than Anankos (okay, Gharnef brainwashed Tiki, and Manfroy Deirdre and Julia- but less than possession here and still no timespace powers). Corrin and the Fates crew are no stronger it appears than any other FE cast, and yet they dispatch a foe much greater than what the others put down. If their power and talent is stagnant, and Anankos is stronger, then Anankos messed up more badly than Ashera et al.. 

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4 hours ago, Køkø said:

Don't get me wrong, I'm not a stickler. My suspension of disbelief is generally okay when it comes to gameplay. I'm not saying things have to be 100% realistic, they just have to make sense.  

No offense, but your criteria for things to make sense seem a bit harsh. No offense, because I'm the same way sometimes, I will admit.

"On a more serious note, I think they (the writers / creators) picked a human form, because human forms are more relatable to us, since we are also human.
As someone (I don't remember who it was) said: "I can't relate to miasma." (in the context of Final Fantasy having evil clouds as (final) bosses)." 

That's the point. They're gods, humans ingame and out, are not. You're not supposed to be able to relate, or even comprehend in some media. 

This statement right here is why I personally don't understand the notion that all villains have to necessarily be relatable.

"Like, if we are willing to go down that rabbit hole, why can people in the FE universe use magic?" 

I can think of many ways to logicalize it. Just be patient.

No need. I was just trying to make a point.

"What are Wyverns, anyway? Are they similar to dragons / laguz? Are they just normal animals? And if they are, why are dragons apparently hyper intelligent when they are in fact biologically related (or should be, anyway)? Why do Wvyern Riders have to use axes if their mounts can apparently breathe fire (see some of Cherche's supports in Awakening)? How does a Pegasus fly?"

I imagine FE wyverns are to dragons, what chimpanzees are to humans. And dragon laguz are not the same as the other dragons. It's fairly evident in their appearance, notice how they're bipedal and have much more humanesque physiques? They're much closer to beorc/humans than real dragons are. Their "human" forms are their true forms with the dragon form being a temporary state. The opposite is true for manaketes, but both can breed with humans, strangely. They could breathe fire since FE3, but that doesn't necessarily mean all wyverns are the same. And all wyvern riders aren't axe locked. (Now that was a nitpick on my part) In regards to pegasi, with their wings? I find them more acceptable then wing-backed humans, seeing as the arms would be a better place. And the fact that laguz morph with their clothing annoys me too.

I know the difference between laguz dragons and regular dragons. I honestly have no clue why I put laguz and dragons together as beings related to Wyverns. That was a brain fart on my part :P
Transforming into an animal or something with your clothes intact is something almost all media (to an extent) does. Imagine the outcry if Nowi, Tiki, Lethe, Lyre, Velouria, Panne etc. lost their clothes while (or after) transforming.

"It's the same thing in SOV. Almost every "plothole" / "contrivance" can be explained with hints thrown around in in-game dialogue and a bit of contextual thinking, especially so in the case of Celica's supposed "stupidity". This, I think, is due to a little thing I like to call "reader / player arrogance" where the readers / players know more than the actual in-universe characters and then call said characters out for their lack of knowledge about things they have zero possible way to know, like the fact that there obviously will be another way to stop Jedah and Duma since that's how these types of stories go. Celica, however, doesn't KNOW these types of stories, so she doesn't know that there is an alternative to the things she tries to do." 

In regards to Celica, willingly giving your soul to the blue genocidal maniac and his demonic god is always a bad idea. Especially when they've done nothing but try to kill you and everything you love the entire game. Her "death" scene was utterly stupid and unnecessary. She's lord in a remake of game in a series that generally does not kill it's important characters.  (RIP Sigurd) 

The possession and death thing was a bit stupid, I'll give you that. On the other hand, keep in mind that Celica is a 17-year old girl that thinks she has to shoulder the fate of the entirety of Valentia. That she would succumb to that kind of pressure and act purely out of desperation and not rationally should be expected. Desperate people tend to lose sight of clear warning signs, even real history shows that.

The real kicker is that it's a step down from the original. Celica being a dumbass who needed to be saved all the time was not in Gaiden. (Don't even get me started on Conrad.) She only needed to be saved once, and that was after saving Alm. She did not give her soul to the psychos, and fought right up until Alm came to save them. It doesn't help that most of the other females suffer from damsel syndrome as well, but Gaiden Celica subverted this. At least Sonya,May,Genny,Catria and Palla are still okay.

Really? I had no idea. I never played the original Gaiden, so I didn't know. Thanks for the interesting tidbit! (no sarcasm)

"Why do people hate exposition and hand holding so much if they are then going to complain that not every little detail is given to them?" 

There's a difference between showing and telling. I don't think most people have a problem with detail itself, they just want that information to be organic.

"Organic" tends to be a common buzzword that gets thrown around when it comes to these things, yes. Sadly, it's still damned if you do, damned if you don't with some.

 

1 hour ago, Interdimensional Observer said:

Anankos shouldn't have lost given that dimension travel, that time warping, that life creation, that Valla Curse, and his power to manipulate people. But Anankos does, because despite being of enough sanity to control a Metal King Slime masquerading as Garon and make coherent sentences for a decade or more with it, and also control Gunter and Takumi depending on the route, he is also degenerating and insane so he can't bring all his assets to bear on the forces of light in rational manner.

Anankos is extremely powerful, possibly outdoing Ashera, but he wastes it. For some, Anankos being so strong yet so stupid is partly expectable of Fates's writing. They layer power upon power upon this dragon trying to make him out as a intimidating threat, but it backfires given how illogical he is. Gharnef and Julius and Nergal were all similar, but all they had was massive power and invincibility, they had less tools, significant tools, than Anankos (okay, Gharnef brainwashed Tiki, and Manfroy Deirdre and Julia- but less than possession here and still no timespace powers). Corrin and the Fates crew are no stronger it appears than any other FE cast, and yet they dispatch a foe much greater than what the others put down. If their power and talent is stagnant, and Anankos is stronger, then Anankos messed up more badly than Ashera et al.. 

A common problem with ongoing franchises, is that they try to outdo themselves with their power scale each time (think Naruto, Dragon Ball and other long running shonen series; even Pokémon) and Fire Emblem falls into that trap with it's final bosses:
We had a mad dragon first, then a mad god, then it went down a little with a dark prince possessed by a mad dragon, then a dark priest who got said prince possessed, then a Demon Dragon that can create soulless puppets to fight for her, then a humongous fire dragon from another world, then a dark god from the past, then half of a gosh darn creator goddess, then an immortal alchemistic experiment from the future uniting with it's past self, then a mad dragon god with dimensional powers and then back to a mad dragon that created an entire continent. What's next? The creator of the FE universe?

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2 hours ago, Køkø said:

So if that's the case, and if Doma and Mila are powerful as you say, they should have gone mad the instant the Shield was broken. Not 600+ years later. 

And with that line of thinking, Anankos would have already been mad, long before making countermeasures to calm himself, if its so instantaneous as you imply. What I was was going for with that thought was how, out of all the manakete dragons that we know of, it was only the exceptionally powerful that actually did, and if they didn't, were already dead (though I cannot speak for Idoun, Ninian, Nils, Sophia, Fae, or Nowi).

3 hours ago, Køkø said:

You're trusting in Judah's word? Is that you Celica? Seriously, the blue cackling Satan worshiper is the last person to trust. Doma and Mila are said to be equals, the former getting whooped by Naga (and later Alm), who isn't said to be able to perform deity level actions like you allege the Valentian siblings are capable of. She was simply the most powerful dragon of her time. If Doma/Mila are of the same ilk as Naga and the other dragons, what makes them so special? Why would Valentian life die without them when the other continents are just fine? Archanea? Elibe? Jugdral? It's even implied that dragons are not even native to the latter.   

If you can't see why Rudolph's plan is incredibly convoluted and stupid, I don't know how I can convince you. I've yet to provide my own rebuttal, so here's an easy one. Rudolph and Rigel took down Mila effortlessly. Doma and Mila are equals. Why didn't he just seal Doma afterwards? Why didn't Doma just fuck off from the beginning, if he's so pro human autonomy?

This is literally the first amount of exposition for the game. Why that's so hard to comprehend, I don't get, simply due to the fact that it's Jedah who said it? Clive did too toward Alm right after seeing Celica, as did Jedah right before the final battle.  Simply put, mankind was relying on them to handle everything for them within Valentia. Doing so is what caused all of the problems within both countries: Zofians are spoiled and depraved, while Rigelians are cold, harsh with equally harsh environment where its implied that only the strong survive. How do you tell someone to suddenly fend for themselves when for their whole lives they had someone else spoon-feed them? That's the difference between Valentia and the others: humans developed their own civilization themselves, whereas in Valentia, civilization was developed revolving around Mila and Duma. Had the two of them not been banished, they most likely would have heeded Naga's warning to not meddle with humans, but they were, and since they were starting fresh, just did whatever they wanted

That's an assumption that he did so effortlessly. He couldn't seal Duma cause Mila sealed Falchion along with her. Duma isn't pro autonomy though, he's pro power. When humans desire power, Duma is there to answer the call. Given the apparent harsh environments (most likely cause by Duma, himself to make mankind strong), one could infer that this happens often when they themselves aren't strong enough to thrive for themselves and is probably how the Duma Faithful have such a following: its most gruesome example being the existence of witches. When said weakness doesn't apply to you, nothing happens, I suppose. After all, it wasn't until losing to Alm that Berkut started hearing Duma calling for him and eventually gave himself (along with his fiance). 

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2 hours ago, DragonFlames said:

No offense, but your criteria for things to make sense seem a bit harsh. No offense, because I'm the same way sometimes, I will admit.

None taken, I just can't help it.  

"This statement right here is why I personally don't understand the notion that all villains have to necessarily be relatable."

I have never heard anyone say that they should. If the villain is human, critics would prefer they have some complexity, or a least a good reason for doing what they do. If the villain is inhuman, well just go from there.

"Transforming into an animal or something with your clothes intact is something almost all media (to an extent) does. Imagine the outcry if Nowi, Tiki, Lethe, Lyre, Velouria, Panne etc. lost their clothes while (or after) transforming." 

And it's dumb. I was more so talking about this in particular, go to 7.04.  

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BX0fvN-uW7M 

Tell me that doesn't look dumb.  

"Imagine the outcry if Nowi, Tiki, Lethe, Lyre, Velouria, Panne etc. lost their clothes while (or after) transforming." 

There's a large chunk of the fanbase that invested in the series for the fanservice of the newer games. Hell, it's even in the older games, just nowhere near as blatant as now. I'm saying it'd probably increase sales. If they don't want them naked, they could probably justify it by not having the shapeshifter actually physically transform. See all that luminescent stuff when a shapeshifter shifts? Maybe they could make their transformed states some sort of energy projection, that's in the shape of whatever beast they're affiliated with.  Like a shell or something, I don't know. That's just something off the top. If it's hard to envision, take a look at this. 

http://fireemblem.wikia.com/wiki/File:B09-084HN.png

 On the other hand, keep in mind that Celica is a 17-year old girl that thinks she has to shoulder the fate of the entirety of Valentia. That she would succumb to that kind of pressure and act purely out of desperation and not rationally should be expected. Desperate people tend to lose sight of clear warning signs, even real history shows that. 

The point of a remake to improve the original. It's pretty sad that the writers got outwritten by a NES game in the early 90's with all the means and resources they have now.  

Really? I had no idea. I never played the original Gaiden, so I didn't know.  

See, that's what I said earlier. Most people's first experience with Gaiden is Echoes. I don't mean to ruin anyone's experience, but people like me were hoping for more. People like you had nothing to compare it to. If they ever glanced at it or tried it out for themselves after Echoes, they'd be put off by the graphics, sluggishness, bugs, and translation errors. They would immediately see Echoes as superior in every way. You should try it out for yourself, if you've got the time and patience. 

"Organic" tends to be a common buzzword that gets thrown around when it comes to these things, yes. Sadly, it's still damned if you do, damned if you don't with some." 

Really? Then I'll explain exactly what I mean. People would rather learn information in a way that doesn't feel force fed. They want general ideas to work with, and to put the pieces together. It just helps with immersion. Nothing wrong with detailed documentation, ingame and out, I'm not asking for a puzzle here. 

 

 "What's next? The creator of the FE universe?" 

Kaga as a final boss? Now that, I'd be down for. 

 

1 hour ago, Motendra said:

"And with that line of thinking, Anankos would have already been mad, long before making countermeasures to calm himself, if its so instantaneous as you imply. What I was was going for with that thought was how, out of all the manakete dragons that we know of, it was only the exceptionally powerful that actually did, and if they didn't, were already dead (though I cannot speak for Idoun, Ninian, Nils, Sophia, Fae, or Nowi)."

What does Anankos have to with Echoes? You do realize what game he's from right? You know, the one with multiple dimensions? Ffs, Fates' continent isn't even named, we don't know a damn thing about it.  How could you possibly know if "Fateslandia" is anywhere near Archanea? If it even exists in the same realm? I only mentioned instantaneous madness because Interdimensional Observer's theory plus your idea of Doma and Mila's power level would suggest that. Or at least much sooner than 600+ years if not. You've yet to explain yourself regarding this, the reason why Doma and Mila are somehow both weaker and stronger than Naga, and why Valentian life would die out when everywhere else is fine without dragons. If you're going to be like Peaceful_User, do you want to just call this off now?

 In the worlds we know are connected, dragon degeneration effects all dragons. Regarding Nowi, a character from a game with the same plot issues as it's 3DS brethren, I can't speak for the writers as to why that is. 

"This is literally the first amount of exposition for the game. Why that's so hard to comprehend, I don't get, simply due to the fact that it's Jedah who said it? Clive did too toward Alm right after seeing Celica, as did Jedah right before the final battle.  Simply put, mankind was relying on them to handle everything for them within Valentia. Doing so is what caused all of the problems within both countries: Zofians are spoiled and depraved, while Rigelians are cold, harsh with equally harsh environment where its implied that only the strong survive." 

It's not that I don't comprehend, it's that there isn't much to comprehend. The exposition is very vague, and doesn't explain much. 

"Them"? Doesn't the dependency thing only apply to Sofia? I'm just saying in a game that implemented it's own calendar, mind you, which was said to introduced by a human, it's quite disappointing to see them neglect the important stuff. It seems that Valentian people weren't so dependent after all. 

"That's the difference between Valentia and the others: humans developed their own civilization themselves, whereas in Valentia, civilization was developed revolving around Mila and Duma."

It never states as such anywhere I've seen. Show me where it explicitly says that. We are talking about an entire continent here. 

"Had the two of them not been banished, they most likely would have heeded Naga's warning to not meddle with humans, but they were, and since they were starting fresh, just did whatever they wanted."  

Had Naga been consistent, she wouldn't allow in the first place. Seeing as she kicked Doma's ass and forced him live with his shame, they most certainly would not be doing "whatever they wanted". Had the retcon not be implemented, Naga wouldn't be hypocrite. She didn't even want Forseti in Jugdral, and he didn't even want to rule. 

"That's an assumption that he did so effortlessly. He couldn't seal Duma cause Mila sealed Falchion along with her.

Looked pretty easy to me. Why didn't he just kill Doma first? He was the problem. 

"Duma isn't pro autonomy though, he's pro power. When humans desire power, Duma is there to answer the call. Given the apparent harsh environments (most likely cause by Duma, himself to make mankind strong), one could infer that this happens often when they themselves aren't strong enough to thrive for themselves and is probably how the Duma Faithful have such a following: its most gruesome example being the existence of witches. When said weakness doesn't apply to you, nothing happens, I suppose. After all, it wasn't until losing to Alm that Berkut started hearing Duma calling for him and eventually gave himself (along with his fiance)." 

Point taken, but it doesn't seem very powerful to rely one someone else give it to you. "Pro power" should still encourage isolation on Doma's part. The strong survive, the weak die and whatnot....

 

 

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Gaiden Celica didn't avoid it. She was in hot water and NEEDED Alm. She was done for if Alm didn't show up. It's literally no different than Echoes Celica. They're both in peril it doesn't matter the circumstance.  

Echoes Celica was following her birthright, if Mila couldn't spoon-feed them, Duma was the next best option since Valentia REVOLVED around gods. She is in no way worse than her original, I call bullshit on that one. Especially since Celica after that fuck up, that the story doesn't let slide and she gets shit from her companions with her getting a falchion to the gut too. Sure she's revived but the memories of it didn't automatically disappear. Celica shows clear as day regret from following the way she was born and she develops Duma's ideals just like Alm had developed Mila's. 

Echoes Celica gets development, Gaiden Celica does not. 

Echoes Celica >>>> Gaiden Celica.

Stop the circlejerk. I'll tolerate her being called dumb than her "being worse than the original" which is such blatant bull I can't even-

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9 hours ago, Køkø said:

The real kicker is that it's a step down from the original. Celica being a dumbass who needed to be saved all the time was not in Gaiden. (Don't even get me started on Conrad.) She only needed to be saved once, and that was after saving Alm. She did not give her soul to the psychos, and fought right up until Alm came to save them. It doesn't help that most of the other females suffer from damsel syndrome as well, but Gaiden Celica subverted this. At least Sonya,May,Genny,Catria and Palla are still okay.

 

I've never played Gaiden, so I may be wrong about this, but doesn't Gaiden Celica sacrifice herself as well as her entire army to save Alm? How is that better than Echoes Celica? Regardless of your stance on Echoes Celica's reasoning, I think it's fair to say that it makes a lot more sense to sacrifice yourself to save the whole world than to sacrifice yourself and 14 others to save one person.

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4 minutes ago, CriticalMiss said:

I've never played Gaiden, so I may be wrong about this, but doesn't Gaiden Celica sacrifice herself as well as her entire army to save Alm? How is that better than Echoes Celica? Regardless of your stance on Echoes Celica's reasoning, I think it's fair to say that it makes a lot more sense to sacrifice yourself to save the whole world than to sacrifice yourself and 14 others to save one person.

No that's exactly right. Alm was used as blackmail causing Celica to be in peril and need his help. That's way worse than Echoes Celica who did it because of her upbringing teaching her to put gods over her own personal safety and she was doing it for everyone INCLUDING Alm. 

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23 minutes ago, CriticalMiss said:

I've never played Gaiden, so I may be wrong about this, but doesn't Gaiden Celica sacrifice herself as well as her entire army to save Alm? How is that better than Echoes Celica? Regardless of your stance on Echoes Celica's reasoning, I think it's fair to say that it makes a lot more sense to sacrifice yourself to save the whole world than to sacrifice yourself and 14 others to save one person.

No she does not. You just said you didn't play, so where are you getting your information from? She was fighting alongside her army against Judah the entire time Alm tries to find a way to get in. There was no "sacrifice". The first thing she asked him to do is release Mila, not help Alm. 

 

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6 minutes ago, Køkø said:

No she does not. You just said you didn't play, so where are you getting your information from? She was fighting alongside her army against Judah the entire time Alm tries to find a way to get in. There was no "sacrifice". The first thing she asked him to do is release Mila, not help Alm. 

 

I have two sources:

https://serenesforest.net/gaiden/scripts/script-translation/chapter-4-the-land-of-sorrow/

EDIT: To make it easier to find, Control + F "If you offer yourselves as sacrifices to Lord Doma, Alm’s path shall also open up once more!"

 

Edited by CriticalMiss
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Everybody, all we need to make Rudolf's Plan Against The Gods and Celica's Action fixed up is:

1. Make Mila and her Church more visibly flawed and complicit in Zofia's issues. We're meant to see that both divine siblings were ruining mankind with their meddling, yet Duma and his followers comes off worse. The Church is presented as a benign organization with Lima IV's antics done on his initiative, Zofian villains like Desaix don't act with Mila's encouragement (Desaix even insults her), and Mila herself enables the day to be saved after seeing the state of the continent.

(As a corollary to this, we could use more signs of Zofians being believably spoiled and decadent without being obvious villains. Clive never shows doubt in Alm unless he screws up.)

2.  On the flipside, make the virtues of Duma and his worshipers more visible or just tone down Jedah's posse. Give Jedah and Co. different designs that don't make them look as grotesque as doable. Actually let Jedah have some plausible deniability. And find out what the hell Jedah's angle is (see him barking about making a world of chaos when all evidence points to a degenerated Duma being more helpful for that goal than one who isn't).

3. We should see more doubt about Rudolf's actions and more signs he set things up for Alm to win. Alm embraces Rudolf's ideology and his army goes along with it, but Mila was helpful to him.

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Just now, CriticalMiss said:

It had been a long time since I read it, and I had only skimmed it, so I wasn't sure I was right.

Honest mistake, don't worry about it. Might have been a good idea to get a refresher before jumping in though.

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3 minutes ago, Køkø said:

Honest mistake, don't worry about it. Might have been a good idea to get a refresher before jumping in though.

Sure, but is what I'm saying wrong? It seems from those sources like Jedah told Celica to sacrifice follow him to sacrifice herself and her army to save Alm. And then, after she complies and follows him into the next room, she and her army are trapped, and the sacrificial process is merely them slowly dying at the hands (tentacles?) of the Mogalls. Is that not what happens, or am I missing additional context or something?

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2 minutes ago, CriticalMiss said:

Sure, but is what I'm saying wrong? It seems from those sources like Jedah told Celica to sacrifice follow him to sacrifice herself and her army to save Alm. And then, after she complies and follows him into the next room, she and her army are trapped, and the sacrificial process is merely them slowly dying at the hands (tentacles?) of the Mogalls. Is that not what happens, or am I missing additional context or something?

Either I am or you are. "Sacrifice" as in submitting and willingly offering her soul to Doma? No. She doesn't even reply, and the first thing she asked him to do free Mila, not Alm.

Did you not see the warping? Did they even have a choice? Even if they did, they were supposed to run away after coming all the way there to stop Doma?  

 

 

14 minutes ago, Kalken said:

Everybody, all we need to make Rudolf's Plan Against The Gods and Celica's Action fixed up is:

1. Make Mila and her Church more visibly flawed and complicit in Zofia's issues. We're meant to see that both divine siblings were ruining mankind with their meddling, yet Duma and his followers comes off worse. The Church is presented as a benign organization with Lima IV's antics done on his initiative, Zofian villains like Desaix don't act with Mila's encouragement (Desaix even insults her), and Mila herself enables the day to be saved after seeing the state of the continent.

(As a corollary to this, we could use more signs of Zofians being believably spoiled and decadent without being obvious villains. Clive never shows doubt in Alm unless he screws up.)

2.  On the flipside, make the virtues of Duma and his worshipers more visible or just tone down Jedah's posse. Give Jedah and Co. different designs that don't make them look as grotesque as doable. Actually let Jedah have some plausible deniability. And find out what the hell Jedah's angle is (see him barking about making a world of chaos when all evidence points to a degenerated Duma being more helpful for that goal than one who isn't).

3. We should see more doubt about Rudolf's actions and more signs he set things up for Alm to win. Alm embraces Rudolf's ideology and his army goes along with it, but Mila was helpful to him.

I like this. Though pretty much anything would step up. No offense to you, by the way.

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20 minutes ago, Køkø said:

Either I am or you are. "Sacrifice" as in submitting and willingly offering her soul to Doma? No. She doesn't even reply, and the first thing she asked him to do free Mila, not Alm.

 

I suppose it's up to interpretation. I don't see where she asks him to free Mila, but that could easily be attributed to just a line or two being excluded in the translations I'm using.

 

I guess my issue with your interpretation of Gaiden Celica being better than Echoes Celica would be that she still willingly walked into a trap with her entire army, which is foolish (albeit not selfish like choosing to sacrifice everyone in your army would be). Also, if she didn't sacrifice herself, then she did not really save Alm, as she would have given nothing to Jedah in return for Alm's safety. In that case, Jedah would have acted surprisingly magnanimously in choosing to let Alm proceed.

 

20 minutes ago, Køkø said:

Did you not see the warping? Did they even have a choice? Even if they did, they were supposed to run away after coming all the way there to stop Doma?  

 

I saw the warping but just in text. I haven't watched any videos/played the game itself, so it's entirely possible that I'm missing key information. I would disagree with your last question though; they could have just left. That's a Sunk-Cost Fallacy (although, admittedly, that is a line of reasoning that many people use).

Edited by CriticalMiss
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I'd guess another nice change would be to give Berkut an early victory. One issue I hear of him is that he is supposed to be a major threat, but loss after loss does not back this up. Perhaps a way to handle this would be to show him at the beginning as a relentless Deliverance destroyer? That could justify his early appearance a while before the string of defeats he suffers begins. A quick line of "I'm sorry Desaix I can't help you defend Zofia Castle today, I have rebels to the north to skewer." could keep him away from actual player fighting in Act 1.

Yen'fay in Awakening had a similar issue I keep hammering him for. Say'ri powerful big bro who is supposed to be threat, but whom we never see until the battle he dies in. Thusly, his power is never truly felt and he falls flat as a foe. Bertram had a similar issue in PoR. Zephiel and Walhart alike got a scripted battle where they mauled a hero. The BK murdered a powerhouse father, had two pre-final battle appearances with invincibility and incredible stats, and a scripted battle where he doubles Ranulf, a supposedly speedy cat, in PoR. Then come RD and his return, we get the entirety of 1-9 to watch him destroy everything. The BK is too much for Berkut to replicate, but a Zephiel or a Walhart moment could've worked.

Add a quick line or three on the nobility of Rigel as being meritocratic. This might sound a little odd, but there have been imperfect examples of this in history. For instance Peter the Great of Russian redefined Russian noble rankings and any title below a certain point was not inheritable, later the rigorous system would be eased up, but it did exist for a time. Berkut would obviously come from an inheritable title, but would have inherited too this profound work ethic even if it was not absolutely necessary for him to have it. I'm also aware that in part of the Medieval period, particularly in Spain where the constant war against the Muslim threat in Al Andalus meant warriors were constantly needed, that in theory, society was open enough for the miracle of a commoner to rise up and become a noble. 

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11 minutes ago, Interdimensional Observer said:

I'd guess another nice change would be to give Berkut an early victory. One issue I hear of him is that he is supposed to be a major threat, but loss after loss does not back this up. Perhaps a way to handle this would be to show him at the beginning as a relentless Deliverance destroyer? That could justify his early appearance a while before the string of defeats he suffers begins. A quick line of "I'm sorry Desaix I can't help you defend Zofia Castle today, I have rebels to the north to skewer." could keep him away from actual player fighting in Act 1.

Yen'fay in Awakening had a similar issue I keep hammering him for. Say'ri powerful big bro who is supposed to be threat, but whom we never see until the battle he dies in. Thusly, his power is never truly felt and he falls flat as a foe. Bertram had a similar issue in PoR. Zephiel and Walhart alike got a scripted battle where they mauled a hero. The BK murdered a powerhouse father, had two pre-final battle appearances with invincibility and incredible stats, and a scripted battle where he doubles Ranulf, a supposedly speedy cat, in PoR. Then come RD and his return, we get the entirety of 1-9 to watch him destroy everything. The BK is too much for Berkut to replicate, but a Zephiel or a Walhart moment could've worked.

Add a quick line or three on the nobility of Rigel as being meritocratic. This might sound a little odd, but there have been imperfect examples of this in history. For instance Peter the Great of Russian redefined Russian noble rankings and any title below a certain point was not inheritable, later the rigorous system would be eased up, but it did exist for a time. Berkut would obviously come from an inheritable title, but would have inherited too this profound work ethic even if it was not absolutely necessary for him to have it. I'm also aware that in part of the Medieval period, particularly in Spain where the constant war against the Muslim threat in Al Andalus meant warriors were constantly needed, that in theory, society was open enough for the miracle of a commoner to rise up and become a noble. 

Nope nope nope. The entire point of Berkut was being a victim of Rigel and falling from grace. Not being this feared badass. Him being "finest general" was an ego boosting title and there's ways to get that title outside of just battle. Like oh I dunno... being the nephew of the emperor himself. His entire theme is "pride and arrogance". Said pride and arrogance crafted by Rigel is the cause of his downfall. Berkut saying himself these standards were forced on by his parents in game. The developers say themselves that if Alm was raised in Rigel he would be no different from Berkut... 

http://www.usgamer.net/articles/fire-emblem-echoes-shadows-of-valentia-interview

"I was thinking perhaps that if Alm did grow up in the Rigelian Empire, he might turn into someone like Berkut." which explains everything and what Berkut was saying.

Berkut's not supposed to be this typical badass with an awesome voice we have tons of those in this franchise, that's what makes Berkut so refreshing and great. 

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37 minutes ago, CriticalMiss said:

I suppose it's up to interpretation. I don't see where she asks him to free Mila, but that could easily be attributed to just a line or two being excluded in the translations I'm using.

 

I guess my issue with your interpretation of Gaiden Celica being better than Echoes Celica would be that she still willingly walked into a trap with her entire army, which is foolish (albeit not selfish like choosing to sacrifice everyone in your army would be). Also, if she didn't sacrifice herself, then she did not really save Alm, as she would have given nothing to Jedah in return for Alm's safety. In that case, Jedah would have acted surprisingly magnanimously in choosing to let Alm proceed.

 

I saw the warping but just in text. I haven't watched any videos/played the game itself, so it's entirely possible that I'm missing key information. I would disagree with your last question though; they could have just left. That's a Sunk-Cost Fallacy (although, admittedly, that is a line of reasoning that many people use).

Doma Swamp

* (After the Level 5 Bigle is defeated)
Judah:
Hehehe, cute critter, eh… However, I didn’t expect you to kill it so soon.
That brat named Alm, was it? If you do not wish to lose him, girl… then come ascend the Tower of Doma.

~ Judah teleports out ~ '   

Inside the Tower of Doma

* (On the topmost level)

Judah:
Hehe. The princess of Sofia, is it? I’ve been waiting for you to come.

Cellica:
Who are you!?

Judah:
Who, me? Why, I am Lord Doma’s number one servant.
The one known as Judah, head priest of our Lord.

Cellica:
If that is so, then please, I beg of you.
 Release Lady Mila! Return the Earth Goddess Mila to her proper place!!   

Temple of Doma:

Cellica’s party is currently fighting.
[Character name] received # damage.
In case of death:
[Character name] fell!!

[The two highest leveled (?) members aside from Cellica receive damage.]

* (Beyond the iron bars)
Alm:
! Cellica —

~ Cellica runs over from the midst of a battle ~

Cellica:
Ah! Alm, help us…
At this rate everyone will…
Everyone will die!
H-hurry… Please… come quickly. 

 

I have no idea how to make the green go away, but there it it is. She knew Alm was in danger, but Mila was her priority. And there was no sacrifice.

I still disagree on turning back after coming that far.

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7 hours ago, CriticalMiss said:

I suppose it's up to interpretation. I don't see where she asks him to free Mila, but that could easily be attributed to just a line or two being excluded in the translations I'm using.

 

I guess my issue with your interpretation of Gaiden Celica being better than Echoes Celica would be that she still willingly walked into a trap with her entire army, which is foolish (albeit not selfish like choosing to sacrifice everyone in your army would be). Also, if she didn't sacrifice herself, then she did not really save Alm, as she would have given nothing to Jedah in return for Alm's safety. In that case, Jedah would have acted surprisingly magnanimously in choosing to let Alm proceed.

 

I saw the warping but just in text. I haven't watched any videos/played the game itself, so it's entirely possible that I'm missing key information. I would disagree with your last question though; they could have just left. That's a Sunk-Cost Fallacy (although, admittedly, that is a line of reasoning that many people use).

What makes you think they could have left? They make it very clear Celica's trapped fighting a losing battle at the end of the game. Hell, you can even  explore the area where the battle takes place before iniating it and see that there are no exits beyond the locked door that Alm eventually arrives through. And their spawn point is on the opposite side of the room to that door, backed into a corner, with Celica's entire army slowly being whitteled away as Alm fights through the dungeon.

Edited by Jotari
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TBH, I just say the issue is that Jedah is a weak villain. They tried to make the game's plot more complex but didn't go far enough with Jedah and his co-cultists. Him being so cartoonishly villainous makes Celica looks like a fool who has to be carried by Alm (and Conrad) lest she dooms the world from her bumbling.

He has to be more sure about what he's trying to accomplish (is he out for what's best for his god, trying to build Outer Heaven, just a sleazebag riding on Duma's coattails). And tone down his design (he can keep the blue skin, just get rid of the ears and make him look less like a vampire).

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On 1/13/2018 at 12:17 AM, Køkø said:

Gaiden Quote

Okay, I see where she asks Jedah to save Mila now. Thanks, I somehow missed that when I was reading through the script.

 

I understand how you interpreted Gaiden Celica that way, but I'm not sure that interpretation is any smarter or stronger than Echoes Celica. For the sake of discussion, let's compare your interpretation of Gaiden Celica and Echoes Celica:

 

  • Both listened to Jedah after he and his followers attacked their respective army's throughout Act 4. Sure,  according to you, Gaiden Celica did not agree to be a sacrifice but she did follow Jedah into the Tower of Duma and then, upon seeing Alm, follows Jedah into the next room after he asks her to do so. And it's not like Echoes Celica just immediately believes Jedah; she doesn't do what he says until after seeing that Mila sealed herself.
  • Both lead their armies into a trap.
  • Neither saves anyone in Acts 4 or 5. You said earlier that in Gaiden Alm had to save Celica only after she saved him, but, if Gaiden Celica did not sacrifice herself, then she did not really save Alm. In Gaiden, Jedah offers to free Alm in exchange for Celica sacrificing herself, but, if Celica did not sacrifice herself, then Jedah would have no reason to free Alm.
  • Both use questionable logic and decision-making in desperate situations.
On 1/13/2018 at 12:17 AM, Køkø said:

I still disagree on turning back after coming that far.

It's still a logical fallacy though. Even if you invest a large amount of time, effort, money, etc. into something, it doesn't make logical sense to keep investing in a failing endeavor if it will almost certainly lead to more harm. Probably the most famous example of the Sunk-Cost fallacy was when former President Nixon implored the U.S. to continue fighting the Vietnam War even though the army had determined that it was unwinnable so that the soldiers would not die in vain. It convinced the American public because it was emotionally powerful, and no one wanted to be the cold, heartless soul who did not care about the sacrifice of the troops. But, in the end, the U.S. still lost the war and even more soldiers died.

 

I want to say that I'm not trying to bash Gaiden Celica; I actually like her. Maybe she made decisions based on logical fallacies, but if that logical fallacy was convincing enough to convince the American public to continue an unpopular war, then it makes sense that it could convince a sheltered 17-year-old who feared for Alm and Mila. I appreciate the impact she's had on the series (first female Lord, first Lord to promote, first story promotion, and first mixed-attacker). I just don't really see how she's so much better than Echoes Celica (outside of not having to be saved by Conrad 3 times, which we both agree was bad).

 

On 1/13/2018 at 6:57 AM, Jotari said:

What makes you think they could have left? They make it very clear Celica's trapped fighting a losing battle at the end of the game. Hell, you can even  explore the area where the battle takes place before iniating it and see that there are no exits beyond the locked door that Alm eventually arrives through. And their spawn point is on the opposite side of the room to that door, backed into a corner, with Celica's entire army slowly being whitteled away as Alm fights through the dungeon.

That's not what I meant. Sorry, I guess I wasn't clear. I meant that Celica did not have to follow Jedah and could have simply left when he said:

Hehehe… Cellica.
Alm’s trapped in Dragon Mountain. You must want to save him.
If that’s so, then follow after me.
If you offer yourselves as sacrifices to Lord Doma, Alm’s path shall also open up once more!

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1 hour ago, CriticalMiss said:

 

  • Both listened to Jedah after he and his followers attacked their respective army's throughout Act 4. Sure,  according to you, Gaiden Celica did not agree to be a sacrifice but she did follow Jedah into the Tower of Duma and then, upon seeing Alm, follows Jedah into the next room after he asks her to do so. And it's not like Echoes Celica just immediately believes Jedah; she doesn't do what he says until after seeing that Mila sealed herself. 

 We don't know how Judah would be able to free Alm from the mountain, or more importantly, why he would do so. We don't know if he even did it in the first place. You have to complete this part first in order to proceed on Alm's path. We don't know if this is just a game thing or not. Celica asks Hark to help Alm, and he promotes Alm from a distance. We don't know the extent of his power, or whether he was the one to free Alm. As I mentioned before, they were warped into the final dungeon. We don't know whether Judah would have done this regardless of anything Celica did or said.  

The fact remains that Gaiden Celica did not sacrifice anyone.   

1 hour ago, CriticalMiss said:

 

Both lead their armies into a trap.

You do realize that Doma Tower is where she was headed anyway? Doma and his cult are the main villains, where else where they supposed to go? If she was beating him and his forces on a quest to rescue Mila the entire game, why wouldn't she go after Falchion? Are you suggesting she should have sat around waiting for Alm? His campaign was to conquer Rigel, and it's not like she was told that only Alm could wield it, which I'm sure is just a gameplay thing like Ragnell. Would Judah have warped them to the dungeon regardless?

1 hour ago, CriticalMiss said:

 

  • Neither saves anyone in Acts 4 or 5. You said earlier that in Gaiden Alm had to save Celica only after she saved him, but, if Gaiden Celica did not sacrifice herself, then she did not really save Alm. In Gaiden, Jedah offers to free Alm in exchange for Celica sacrificing herself, but, if Celica did not sacrifice herself, then Jedah would have no reason to free Alm.

 I was referring to the sluicegate when I said Celica saved him prior. 

1 hour ago, CriticalMiss said:

 

It's still a logical fallacy though. Even if you invest a large amount of time, effort, money, etc. into something, it doesn't make logical sense to keep investing in a failing endeavor if it will almost certainly lead to more harm. Probably the most famous example of the Sunk-Cost fallacy was when former President Nixon implored the U.S. to continue fighting the Vietnam War even though the army had determined that it was unwinnable so that the soldiers would not die in vain. It convinced the American public because it was emotionally powerful, and no one wanted to be the cold, heartless soul who did not care about the sacrifice of the troops. But, in the end, the U.S. still lost the war and even more soldiers died.

 

I want to say that I'm not trying to bash Gaiden Celica; I actually like her. Maybe she made decisions based on logical fallacies, but if that logical fallacy was convincing enough to convince the American public to continue an unpopular war, then it makes sense that it could convince a sheltered 17-year-old who feared for Alm and Mila. I appreciate the impact she's had on the series (first female Lord, first Lord to promote, first story promotion, and first mixed-attacker). I just don't really see how she's so much better than Echoes Celica (outside of not having to be saved by Conrad 3 times, which we both agree was bad).

 

Nice history lesson but remember, Gaiden is an NES game. You have to hold it to a lower standard. It was Echoes job to improve, and it failed. 

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11 minutes ago, Køkø said:

You do realize that Doma Tower is where she was headed anyway? Doma and his cult are the main villains, where else where they supposed to go? If she was beating him and his forces on a quest to rescue Mila the entire game, why wouldn't she go after Falchion? Are you suggesting she should have sat around waiting for Alm? His campaign was to conquer Rigel, and it's not like she was told that only Alm could wield it, which I'm sure is just a gameplay thing like Ragnell. Would Judah have warped them to the dungeon regardless?

I'm not saying she should have just waited for Alm, but it's better to do nothing then do something rash and then end up in a worse situation. Again, I'm not trying to attack Celica as I can understand her thinking. I'm just saying that, despite being understandable, her decision was still logically poor and ended up making a bad situation worse.

16 minutes ago, Køkø said:

I was referring to the sluicegate when I said Celica saved him prior.

Ah, sorry, I misunderstood.

17 minutes ago, Køkø said:

We don't know how Judah would be able to free Alm from the mountain, or more importantly, why he would do so. We don't know if he even did it in the first place. You have to complete this part first in order to proceed on Alm's path. We don't know if this is just a game thing or not. Celica asks Hark to help Alm, and he promotes Alm from a distance. We don't know the extent of his power, or whether he was the one to free Alm. As I mentioned before, they were warped into the final dungeon. We don't know whether Judah would have done this regardless of anything Celica did or said.  

 

18 minutes ago, Køkø said:

Nice history lesson but remember, Gaiden is an NES game. You have to hold it to a lower standard. It was Echoes job to improve, and it failed. 

I feel like your last quote kind of sums this discussion up. A lot of the things we're debating from Gaiden were not clear due to hardware limitations, and, as you said, Echoes should be held to a higher standard. It's unfortunate that Echoes was not able to flesh everything out perfectly.

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