My thoughts on a Binding Blade Remake.

[Køkø]

22 minutes ago, omegaxis1 said:

Once again, ALL of the weapons were needed to clash against the force of the dragons to cause it, not just one. 

If the weapons weren't weaker during FE7-FE6, how are you able to use them without causing another Ending Winter? 

"Falchion is but one blade and its power held Naga's own strength, meaning the strength of the strongest dragon, thus there were no other dragon that could even rival the weapon." 

Please show me where it says no other dragon can rival Naga.

"And the very fact that the power of the Elibe is implied to have degraded over time just cements more on Falchion being even superior, as its power was never dulled, but rather only forced to be sealed, and only after Falchion had a new blessing that was made to seal Grima, since Grima was impossible to be killed." 

No it doesn't. I asked you to read next time. I said they were more powerful, not more durable. Falchion never underwent the stress of warping the universe, and was only used 4 times since its inception. Alm's only once as far as we know.

"Gameplay mechanics don't really prove much, except how its used in gameplay." 

I said if lore wasn't enough for you. That, plus tangible stats show the superiority of the BB.  

16 minutes ago, Just call me AL said:

In what scene outside of supports does Lyn mention wanting to return to Sacae? The only scene I can think of where she does is when she's speaking to Eliwood in Ostia's castle town. And that  conversation changes depending on Lyn's supports. If she has an A support with Eliwood before she speaks with him in Ostia, instead of saying that she wants to return to Sacae, Lyn praises Eliwood. If she has an A support with Hector, the conversation she has with Eliwood in Ostia's castle town  is reduced to merely two lines, with Lyn not saying anything and Eliwood telling Lyn to not keep the rest of the group waiting.

 

I said we interpret Lyn differently. As Slumber stated, returning to the plains is more within her character. I do not know the FE7 script by heart, and will skim through a bit for dialogue that supports this.

.

 

Edited January 13, 2018 by Køkø

[omegaxis1]

1 minute ago, Køkø said:

If the weapons weren't weaker during FE7-FE6, how are you able to use them without causing another Ending Winter? 

How many times are you missing the point? The weapons THEMSELVES did not cause the Eternal Winter. You are completely missing the key element about how the dragons fighting them is what caused it. It's even stated directly in the game that it was when the dragons fought the weapons.

2 minutes ago, Køkø said:

Please show me where it says no other dragon can rival Naga.

Here's what Xane says, someone that was part of the war between Divine and Earth Dragons.

Quote

It's a dragon graveyard in the mountains of Macedon. There, the earth dragons sleep. A long time ago... Thousands of years ago in fact... The mighty earth dragons lost their minds and attacked the humans. 'Course, the humans barely stood a chance. Most were annihilated, and the rest pushed into the desolate corners of the continent. And then... the divine dragon Naga, strongest of them all, waged a war for humanity. It was a fierce battle, but Naga emerged victorious in the end, and sealed the earth dragons below Dolhr, in a deep sleep. And so that the power of the seal would not wither, she created the "shield of the five orbs" and placed it in the Fane of Raman. 

The Divine Dragons are hailed as the most powerful race of dragons, with only the Earth Dragons being their rival. Naga being the strongest of the Divine Dragons essentially proves that she was the most powerful dragon. 

Furthermore, Medeus was an extremely powerful dragon since an entire army of men had managed to push back the other dragon manaketes back easily enough, but the moment Medeus stepped in, he utterly decimated the army. Only when Anri arrived with Falchion did Medeus fall, as only Falchion was capable of harming Medeus. And with Duma, who's power prevented any other foe from defeating him except for Nosferatu, Alm and Marth's Falchion, and Roy's Binding Blade. The latter already is said to be superior to the Legendary Weapons of Elibe, so we can go and assume that Binding Blade and Falchion can at best rival one another. 

7 minutes ago, Køkø said:

No it doesn't. I asked you to read next time. I said they were more powerful, not more durable. Falchion never underwent the stress of warping the universe, and was only used 4 times since it's inception. Alm's only once as far as we now.

How many times have we gone over this? The weapons themselves did not cause the Eternal Winter. Dragons were already abnormally powerful, being the strongest race in fact. When two equally powerful forces meet in a clash, a tremendous amount of energy is unleashed from the process. But the energy of the weapons themselves would never have warped reality. 

And Alm's Falchion was also forged from Naga's fang. 

10 minutes ago, Køkø said:

I said if lore wasn't enough for you. That, plus tangible stats show the superiority of the BB.  

Not really. Gameplay mechanics are always bound by the game they are in only. Not by the actual lore. Cause otherwise, Chrom or Marth having the completed Shield of Seals should have had 50 stats everywhere or something, since that would make anyone a demi-god.

[Shadow Mir]

3 hours ago, Køkø said:

Eh, with all the Heroes money, I think they can afford it.   

I don't necessarily think it's a question of money. I think it's a question of work and time... And I think you, too, fail to grasp just how much work it'd be to make a 2-in-1 game.

3 hours ago, Køkø said:

He's one of the better villains in the series. Which isn't saying too much. 

To be frank, I'm unconvinced when Zephiel is basically Sephiran without the stuff that made Sephiran a good villain.

Edited January 13, 2018 by Levant Mir Celestia

[Køkø]

30 minutes ago, omegaxis1 said:

How many times are you missing the point? The weapons THEMSELVES did not cause the Eternal Winter. You are completely missing the key element about how the dragons fighting them is what caused it. It's even stated directly in the game that it was when the dragons fought the weapons.

 

I'm not missing anything. The clash between Elibe's weapons and dragons caused the Ending Winter. Naga's did not.  

 

"Here's what Xane says, someone that was part of the war between Divine and Earth Dragons."

  Quote

It's a dragon graveyard in the mountains of Macedon. There, the earth dragons sleep. A long time ago... Thousands of years ago in fact... The mighty earth dragons lost their minds and attacked the humans. 'Course, the humans barely stood a chance. Most were annihilated, and the rest pushed into the desolate corners of the continent. And then... the divine dragon Naga, strongest of them all, waged a war for humanity. It was a fierce battle, but Naga emerged victorious in the end, and sealed the earth dragons below Dolhr, in a deep sleep. And so that the power of the seal would not wither, she created the "shield of the five orbs" and placed it in the Fane of Raman. 

"The Divine Dragons are hailed as the most powerful race of dragons, with only the Earth Dragons being their rival. Naga being the strongest of the Divine Dragons essentially proves that she was the most powerful dragon."

What does Archanea's affairs have to do with Elibe? You do realize Elibe has multiple dimensions right? Can you proof that Elibe and Archanea even exist in the same realm?  

 

"Furthermore, Medeus was an extremely powerful dragon since an entire army of men had managed to push back the other dragon manaketes back easily enough, but the moment Medeus stepped in, he utterly decimated the army. Only when Anri arrived with Falchion did Medeus fall, as only Falchion was capable of harming Medeus. And with Duma, who's power prevented any other foe from defeating him except for Nosferatu, Alm and Marth's Falchion, and Roy's Binding Blade. The latter already is said to be superior to the Legendary Weapons of Elibe, so we can go and assume that Binding Blade and Falchion can at best rival one another."

 

The Binding Blade is stated to be even more powerful than all of Elibe's other weapons. If the other weapons combined caused the Ending Winter, just imagine what the BB was capable of. The Falchion couldn't even touch Gharnef, or anyone blessed by the Darksphere. It took 2 other spheres to do so. You'd be more accurate in stating the Shield of Seals is a rival, citing the power of the jewels when separated, and the ability instantly seal all nearly all dragons when combined. Why cite Alm and Duma when you just admitted he can be defeated by Nosferatu?

 

"Not really. Gameplay mechanics are always bound by the game they are in only. Not by the actual lore. Cause otherwise, Chrom or Marth having the completed Shield of Seals should have had 50 stats everywhere or something, since that would make anyone a demi-god." 

No, they should be able to: 

Lightsphere:

 Negate enemy' terrain bonuses and the Darksphere's nullifying effect.  

 

Starsphere:

 

Prevents its holder's weapons from wearing out.  

Or 

Grant its holder statistical bonuses of +2 Str, Mag, Skl, Spd, Luk, Def, and Res.

 

Darksphere: 

Negate enemy attacks.  

 

Lifesphere:

Restore HP to its holder at the start of every turn.  

Geosphere:

Moderately damage all units on the map; boost the Hit and Critical hit chance of adjacent ally units by 10.   

 

And seal nearly all dragons instantaneously.  

Both lore, and tangible stats prove you wrong.

8 minutes ago, Levant Mir Celestia said:

I don't necessarily think it's a question of money. I think it's a question of work and time... And I think you, too, fail to grasp just how much work it'd be to make a 2-in-1 game.

To be frank, I'm unconvinced when Zephiel is basically Sephiran without the stuff that made Sephiran a good villain.

No, I just don't care.  

And if you feel like making a tier list, go right ahead. I have to ask though, if Sephiran's a good villain, and Zephiel is weaker Sephiran, how does that not validate my statement?

 

[omegaxis1]

9 minutes ago, Køkø said:

What does Archanea's affairs have to do with Elibe? You do realize Elibe has multiple dimensions right? Can you proof that Elibe and Archanea even exist in the same realm?  

You asked for evidence about Naga's power, and I just showed you. Furthermore, need I also remind you how Awakening showed Naga to also have the powers of time and space, having performed time travel and alternate universal travel? So Elibe is not the only one with multiple dimensions. 

9 minutes ago, Køkø said:

The Binding Blade is stated to be even more powerful than all of Elibe's other weapons. If the other weapons combined caused the Ending Winter, just imagine what the BB was capable of. The Falchion couldn't even touch Gharnef, or anyone blessed by the Darksphere. It took 2 other spheres to do so. You'd be more accurate in stating the Shield of Seals is a rival, citing the power of the jewels when separated, and the ability instantly seal all nearly all dragons when combined. Why cite Alm and Duma when you just admitted he can be defeated by Nosferatu?

I believe that the Binding Blade was in fact among the other Legendary Weapons when they clashed with the dragons to cause the Eternal Winter, so no, still needs dragons. 

Can't touch Gharnef? The Falchion was never even USED against Gharnef. Have you forgotten that in both games, Gharnef is in possession of Falchion? And you have to beat Gharnef before you finally get Falchion. 

Nosferatu being the case is only because in Gaiden, there was a glitch where because Nosferatu always does a set damage, Duma could get damaged by it. They just kept it in Echoes as a reference to that. But really, it was only Falchion and the Binding Blade that could. 

9 minutes ago, Køkø said:

No, they should be able to: 

Lightsphere:

 Negate enemy' terrain bonuses and the Darksphere's nullifying effect.  

Starsphere:

Prevents its holder's weapons from wearing out.  

Or 

Grant its holder statistical bonuses of +2 Str, Mag, Skl, Spd, Luk, Def, and Res.

Darksphere: 

Negate enemy attacks.  

Lifesphere:

Restore HP to its holder at the start of every turn.  

Geosphere:

Moderately damage all units on the map; boost the Hit and Critical hit chance of adjacent ally units by 10.   

And seal nearly all dragons instantaneously.  

Both lore, and tangible stats prove you wrong.

Have you really not realized that these are only dummied down for gameplay purposes so the game isn't broken? Turn all these abilities realistically, and you have one gem that can terraform the land, one that can heal your injuries, one that unlocks your potential that you become stronger than any human, one that can seal your or another, and one that protects you from the dark effects of the other, and nullify the same for the opponent. 

If you literally take that into lore, then each Gem is incredibly powerful. Add those all into the Shield of Seals, and a human using them would in fact be a demi-god. Why do you think that the other nations demanded that Ylisse remove the other gemstones from the Fire Emblem in the Schism? It's because if Ylisse held the full power of the Fire Emblem, they could easily use it to wipe out any other nation. Hell, when you get the full Shield of Seals, in Mystery of the Emblem, it really only has the Starsphere's full effects more or less, and maybe banish Earth Dragons. None of the other ones even. 

So no, the full power of the shield never got converted into gameplay.

[Shadow Mir]

7 minutes ago, Køkø said:

And if you feel like making a tier list, go right ahead. I have to ask though, if Sephiran's a good villain, and Zephiel is weaker Sephiran, how does that not validate my statement?.  

Far as I'm concerned, Sephiran works (and Zephiel falls short) because he actually has legitimate reasons for his actions. Zephiel does not.

[omegaxis1]

2 minutes ago, Levant Mir Celestia said:

Far as I'm concerned, Sephiran works (and Zephiel falls short) because he actually has legitimate reasons for his actions. Zephiel does not.

I dunno about that. I mean, Zephiel's motivations is that he believes humanity is a cruel race that never should have flourished and dragons were the rightful rulers of the land. It comes from how despite everything Zephiel did to earn his father's affections, his father shunned him just cause he's the child of the forced marriage, and even tried to kill him. If you see the ugliness of humanity, it isn't surprising for them to believe that humanity should be exterminated.

[Køkø]

12 minutes ago, omegaxis1 said:

You asked for evidence about Naga's power, and I just showed you. Furthermore, need I also remind you how Awakening showed Naga to also have the powers of time and space, having performed time travel and alternate universal travel? So Elibe is not the only one with multiple dimensions. 

I believe that the Binding Blade was in fact among the other Legendary Weapons when they clashed with the dragons to cause the Eternal Winter, so no, still needs dragons. 

Can't touch Gharnef? The Falchion was never even USED against Gharnef. Have you forgotten that in both games, Gharnef is in possession of Falchion? And you have to beat Gharnef before you finally get Falchion. 

Nosferatu being the case is only because in Gaiden, there was a glitch where because Nosferatu always does a set damage, Duma could get damaged by it. They just kept it in Echoes as a reference to that. But really, it was only Falchion and the Binding Blade that could. 

Have you really not realized that these are only dummied down for gameplay purposes so the game isn't broken? Turn all these abilities realistically, and you have one gem that can terraform the land, one that can heal your injuries, one that unlocks your potential that you become stronger than any human, one that can seal your or another, and one that protects you from the dark effects of the other, and nullify the same for the opponent. 

If you literally take that into lore, then each Gem is incredibly powerful. Add those all into the Shield of Seals, and a human using them would in fact be a demi-god. Why do you think that the other nations demanded that Ylisse remove the other gemstones from the Fire Emblem in the Schism? It's because if Ylisse held the full power of the Fire Emblem, they could easily use it to wipe out any other nation. Hell, when you get the full Shield of Seals, in Mystery of the Emblem, it really only has the Starsphere's full effects more or less, and maybe banish Earth Dragons. None of the other ones even. 

So no, the full power of the shield never got converted into gameplay.

It's you who's missing things. I asked you to tell me where it states that Naga is the most powerful dragon. Naga's abilities and very appearance in Awakening is one of many flaws in that game. A distinction must be made, so when I say Naga, I mean the actions and abilities of the one from FE 1-4. Hypothetically speaking, let's take her ridiculous reality bending powers from her Awakening incarnation and say she had them all along. Where is your proof that Naga is in any way connected to Elibe? And if so, that she is the most powerful dragon?  

 

"I believe that the Binding Blade was in fact among the other Legendary Weapons when they clashed with the dragons to cause the Eternal Winter, so no, still needs dragons." 

So despite admitting that the Binding Blade is superior to all of the other space-time warping weapons, you still don't understand what kind of power that implies?  

"Can't touch Gharnef? The Falchion was never even USED against Gharnef. Have you forgotten that in both games, Gharnef is in possession of Falchion? And you have to beat Gharnef before you finally get Falchion. " 

This is getting old. I asked you to read. Where did I state that Falchion was used against Gharnef? If he and anything else Darksphere related are immune to any attack that doesn't involve the Lightsphere, what does that imply? If you need me to drill it in, look at this, but you probably won't read that either. 

Imhullu					Tome
Rank	Uses	Mt	Hit	Crt	Rng	Wt	WEx	Worth
A	--	14	70%	0%	1~2	4*	--	--
Effect
Nullifies damage from all weapons, with the exception of Starlight

 

 

"Nosferatu being the case is only because in Gaiden, there was a glitch where because Nosferatu always does a set damage, Duma could get damaged by it. They just kept it in Echoes as a reference to that. But really, it was only Falchion and the Binding Blade that could."  

Except that Nosferatu can kill him. If the devs didn't think so, they would have removed it. 

You do realize there are multiple legendary dragon-slaying weapons throughout the series? Elibe and Jugdral? Quite narrow minded to make ungrounded assumptions as to which can kill a legendary dragon. Especially when they were all made for that specific purpose. Elibe's were made with a much more complex process, all Naga did for Falchion was rip a tooth out. Falchion isn't even her most powerful gift,  as the Book of Naga outclasses it by far.

 

"Have you really not realized that these are only dummied down for gameplay purposes so the game isn't broken? Turn all these abilities realistically, and you have one gem that can terraform the land, one that can heal your injuries, one that unlocks your potential that you become stronger than any human, one that can seal your or another, and one that protects you from the dark effects of the other, and nullify the same for the opponent."

"If you literally take that into lore, then each Gem is incredibly powerful. Add those all into the Shield of Seals, and a human using them would in fact be a demi-god."

Why do you think that the other nations demanded that Ylisse remove the other gemstones from the Fire Emblem in the Schism? It's because if Ylisse held the full power of the Fire Emblem, they could easily use it to wipe out any other nation. Hell, when you get the full Shield of Seals, in Mystery of the Emblem, it really only has the Starsphere's full effects more or less, and maybe banish Earth Dragons. None of the other ones even." 

"So no, the full power of the shield never got converted into gameplay."

What the hell? Why did you repeat what said and try to argue against a point we agreed on? I was saying that if they actually did receive the full power of the orbs, it would be the effects I posted, not "50 stats in everything." You lack reading comprehension.  

 

 

41 minutes ago, Levant Mir Celestia said:

Far as I'm concerned, Sephiran works (and Zephiel falls short) because he actually has legitimate reasons for his actions. Zephiel does not.

How does that not validate my statement?

[Just call me AL]

1 hour ago, Køkø said:

I said we interpret Lyn differently. As Slumber stated, returning to the plains is more within her character. I do not know the FE7 script by heart, and will skim through a bit for dialogue that supports this.

If returning to the plains is "more within her character", then why does this conversation in particular happen regardless of Lyn's Supports?

Spoiler

Lyn:
“Eliwood! Wait!”

Eliwood:
“What is it, Lyndis?”

Lyn:
“Is it true what Nergal said?”

Eliwood:
“You mean about Lord Uther?”

Lyn:
“He said he’s dead… When– Did you know, Eliwood?!”

Eliwood:
“…Hector has been acting a little strange… So I forced Oswin to tell me. It was the same illness that took his father. The sickness came on suddenly. It took less than a year for the disease to spread.”

Lyn:
“So when we met him in Castle Ostia, he was…”

Eliwood:
“He was dying. …Yet…he… He didn’t want Hector or us to know… He pushed himself too far. I’m sure he was told he shouldn’t be moving about…”

Lyn:
“Hector *sob* when *sob* when did he…”

Eliwood:
“Only recently… He figured it out when he saw Lord Uther wasn’t at the castle. He pressed Oswin to tell him. ……After that, so as not to distract us, Hector pretended that nothing was amiss…”

Lyn:
“*sob* *sob* That’s…no-- *sob* That’s... *sob*”

Eliwood:
“Lyndis…”

I mean, based on what's happening towards the end of this conversation, it seems pretty obvious what Lyn wants to do. And unfortunately, she can't do what this conversation indicates what she wants to do unless if she's supported with Hector. And considering the circumstances behind her following through with her emotions by that conversation's conclusion, giving in to her own emotions is "a complete betrayal to her character", how?

Edited January 13, 2018 by Just call me AL

[Køkø]

20 minutes ago, Just call me AL said:

If returning to the plains is "more within her character", then why does this conversation in particular happen regardless of Lyn's Supports?

  Reveal hidden contents

Lyn:
“Eliwood! Wait!”

Eliwood:
“What is it, Lyndis?”

Lyn:
“Is it true what Nergal said?”

Eliwood:
“You mean about Lord Uther?”

Lyn:
“He said he’s dead… When– Did you know, Eliwood?!”

Eliwood:
“…Hector has been acting a little strange… So I forced Oswin to tell me. It was the same illness that took his father. The sickness came on suddenly. It took less than a year for the disease to spread.”

Lyn:
“So when we met him in Castle Ostia, he was…”

Eliwood:
“He was dying. …Yet…he… He didn’t want Hector or us to know… He pushed himself too far. I’m sure he was told he shouldn’t be moving about…”

Lyn:
“Hector *sob* when *sob* when did he…”

Eliwood:
“Only recently… He figured it out when he saw Lord Uther wasn’t at the castle. He pressed Oswin to tell him. ……After that, so as not to distract us, Hector pretended that nothing was amiss…”

Lyn:
“*sob* *sob* That’s…no-- *sob* That’s... *sob*”

Eliwood:
“Lyndis…”

I mean, based on what's happening towards the end of this conversation, it seems pretty obvious what Lyn wants to do. And unfortunately, she can't do what this conversation indicates what she wants to do unless if she's supported with Hector. And considering the circumstances behind her following through with her emotions by that conversation's conclusion, giving in to her own emotions is "a complete betrayal to her character", how?

I'm still looking for that evidence, but what does this mean other than she cares about her friend?

Edited January 13, 2018 by Køkø

[omegaxis1]

13 hours ago, Køkø said:

It's you who's missing things. I asked you to tell me where it states that Naga is the most powerful dragon. Naga's abilities and very appearance in Awakening is one of many flaws in that game. A distinction must be made, so when I say Naga, I mean the actions and abilities of the one from FE 1-4. Hypothetically speaking, let's take her ridiculous reality bending powers from her Awakening incarnation and say she had them all along. Where is your proof that Naga is in any way connected to Elibe? And if so, that she is the most powerful dragon?  

I never said that Elibe and Archanea are exactly related. However, the fact remains that in Archanea, it is clearly explained that Naga is the strongest Dragon. So a weapon created by her that held her power would in fact be incredibly powerful. In fact, Mila and Duma are shown to be very powerful Divine Dragons in how they were able to shape Valentia. And the Falchion that Naga made for that continent ended up beating them both rather easily.

13 hours ago, Køkø said:

So despite admitting that the Binding Blade is superior to all of the other space-time warping weapons, you still don't understand what kind of power that implies?  

You keep insisting that the Legendary Weapons themselves have the power to warp reality. No, they don't. 

I don't deny that the Binding Blade would be very powerful. But again, it was only when the Binding Blade, and the other Legendary Weapons clashed against the Dragons, did the resulting energy caused the warp. I don't understand why you keep insisting that it was the weapons themselves, when the dragons literally were the other piece of the puzzle here.

13 hours ago, Køkø said:

 

This is getting old. I asked you to read. Where did I state that Falchion was used against Gharnef? If he and anything else Darksphere related are immune to any attack that doesn't involve the Lightsphere, what does that imply? If you need me to drill it in, look at this, but you probably won't read that either. 

Imhullu					Tome
Rank	Uses	Mt	Hit	Crt	Rng	Wt	WEx	Worth
A	--	14	70%	0%	1~2	4*	--	--
Effect
Nullifies damage from all weapons, with the exception of Starlight

*facepalms* Of course it would say that. Because gameplay-wise, that is the only case. However, in BOTH of these scenarios, Falchion was never obtained by Marth. Gharnef had Falchion the entire game of Shadow Dragon and Mystery of the Emblem. So to get Falchion, you need to beat Gharnef, and no other weapon can harm him. That by no means makes it that Imhullu would not be affected by Falchion. Since we never get Falchion until endgame after beating Gharnef, one could easily make an assumption that Falchion could have taken down Imhullu. Furthermore, I don't actually see the issue with Imhullu, given that it is a powerful magic that uses the spirits of the dead to make an impenetrable shield. 

14 hours ago, Køkø said:

Except that Nosferatu can kill him. If the devs didn't think so, they would have removed it. 

No, they wouldn't. Did you literally miss what I had just said? In Gaiden, Nosferatu can kill Duma, but only because of the glitch in the gameplay, where Nosferatu always dealing a set damage would always hurt Duma. When making Echoes, they kept that function purely as a reference to how Gaiden had that. It's nothing to do with the actual lore. 

14 hours ago, Køkø said:

You do realize there are multiple legendary dragon-slaying weapons throughout the series? Elibe and Jugdral? Quite narrow minded to make ungrounded assumptions as to which can kill a legendary dragon. Especially when they were all made for that specific purpose. Elibe's were made with a much more complex process, all Naga did for Falchion was rip a tooth out. Falchion isn't even her most powerful gift,  as the Book of Naga outclasses it by far.

Please tell me where the proof is that Book of Naga outclasses Falchion? I read every dialogue and interview with Kaga, and there has been absolutely no mention that Book of Naga is superior to Falchion. In fact, by Awakening, it was confirmed that Falchion at its full strength rivals the full power of Naga herself. So Book of Naga would be inferior to Falchion, or at best, rival it. 

Yeah sure, Book of Naga was created for the intent of defeating Loptyr, but what evidence suggests that Falchion couldn't have done the same? 

14 hours ago, Køkø said:

What the hell? Why did you repeat what said and try to argue against a point we agreed on? I was saying that if they actually did receive the full power of the orbs, it would be the effects I posted, not "50 stats in everything." You lack reading comprehension.  

Okay, there might have been a misunderstanding here. I was trying to make an exaggerated mention of how all their stats would be high off the charts, and the character would be incredibly powerful had the actual lore been implemented into the games. 

[Shadow Mir]

16 hours ago, omegaxis1 said:

I dunno about that. I mean, Zephiel's motivations is that he believes humanity is a cruel race that never should have flourished and dragons were the rightful rulers of the land. It comes from how despite everything Zephiel did to earn his father's affections, his father shunned him just cause he's the child of the forced marriage, and even tried to kill him. If you see the ugliness of humanity, it isn't surprising for them to believe that humanity should be exterminated.

I'm not buying into that - that falls well short of seeing your whole race pretty much annihilated, as well as having your... whatever Misaha was to Lehran... assassinated. There's also the constant warring between laguz and beorc, and possibly the enslavement of laguz in Begnion as well. In comparison, I just cannot take Zephiel seriously.

15 hours ago, Køkø said:

How does that not validate my statement?

You ask me, there is nothing to validate - why the hell should I consider Zephiel "good" or "well-written"???

[omegaxis1]

1 minute ago, Levant Mir Celestia said:

I'm not buying into that - that falls well short of seeing your whole race pretty much annihilated, as well as having your... whatever Misaha was to Lehran... assassinated. There's also the constant warring between laguz and beorc, and possibly the enslavement of laguz in Begnion as well. In comparison, I just cannot take Zephiel seriously.

Zephiel sees the monstrosity of his father, and has an entire history book of how many wars humanity has gone through. Humans suck. 

Not to mention it was humans that started the Scouring. 

[Køkø]

2 hours ago, omegaxis1 said:

I never said that Elibe and Archanea are exactly related. However, the fact remains that in Archanea, it is clearly explained that Naga is the strongest Dragon. So a weapon created by her that held her power would in fact be incredibly powerful. In fact, Mila and Duma are shown to be very powerful Divine Dragons in how they were able to shape Valentia. And the Falchion that Naga made for that continent ended up beating them both rather easily.

I've had enough of you. This will be my last response on this matter. I hate the fact that I've gone on this long, apologies to the OP for derailing your topic. 

I asked you show me where it states Naga is the strongest dragon in the entire series. So if you don't know if Archaenea and Elibe are related, how do you know that there aren't any dragons there that can match or outperform Naga? And that Elibe's weapons weren't used slay said dragons? You can read my other posts regarding Valentia, I'm not typing all that shit again. 

2 hours ago, omegaxis1 said:

 

You keep insisting that the Legendary Weapons themselves have the power to warp reality. No, they don't. 

I don't deny that the Binding Blade would be very powerful. But again, it was only when the Binding Blade, and the other Legendary Weapons clashed against the Dragons, did the resulting energy caused the warp. I don't understand why you keep insisting that it was the weapons themselves, when the dragons literally were the other piece of the puzzle here.

No, I am not. That's simply you failing to read yet again. This is what I said. I''ll put it in bold caps for you, okay?  

17 hours ago, Køkø said:

I'm not missing anything. The clash between Elibe's weapons and dragons caused the Ending Winter. Naga's did not.  

This means that whatever quality the EDW possess to cause a widespread energy imbalance when clashing with dragons, is not present in any incarnation of Falchion. You said that the BB and Falchion were rivals at best. You are wrong. And the other Divine Weapons are implied to be not too different from the BB in terms of power.

2 hours ago, omegaxis1 said:

 

*facepalms* Of course it would say that. Because gameplay-wise, that is the only case. However, in BOTH of these scenarios, Falchion was never obtained by Marth. Gharnef had Falchion the entire game of Shadow Dragon and Mystery of the Emblem. So to get Falchion, you need to beat Gharnef, and no other weapon can harm him. That by no means makes it that Imhullu would not be affected by Falchion. Since we never get Falchion until endgame after beating Gharnef, one could easily make an assumption that Falchion could have taken down Imhullu. Furthermore, I don't actually see the issue with Imhullu, given that it is a powerful magic that uses the spirits of the dead to make an impenetrable shield. 

 

Yeah, you should be facepalming. You didn't read again. I never said it was used against Gharnef. I said it couldn't touch Gharnef. In Archanea/Valentia/Jugdral's world, no other weapon can harm a use of the Darksphere with the exception of the Lightsphere. The Falchion is not the Lightsphere, it cannot beat the Darksphere. This doesn't mean that no other worlds or continents not yet tied to Archaenea lack something that can. Your assumption is not rooted in facts. Mine are.

Maybe I'll hack all of Marth's games one day to get the Falchion early, and see what happens. Just for fun.

 

2 hours ago, omegaxis1 said:

 

No, they wouldn't. Did you literally miss what I had just said? In Gaiden, Nosferatu can kill Duma, but only because of the glitch in the gameplay, where Nosferatu always dealing a set damage would always hurt Duma. When making Echoes, they kept that function purely as a reference to how Gaiden had that. It's nothing to do with the actual lore. 

No, missing things is your problem. If the devs thought that Doma was too powerful to be killed by Nosferatu, they would have removed the glitch. If they're willing to undermine their power scale for the sake of a joke, then I will treat it as one. 

2 hours ago, omegaxis1 said:

 

Please tell me where the proof is that Book of Naga outclasses Falchion? I read every dialogue and interview with Kaga, and there has been absolutely no mention that Book of Naga is superior to Falchion. In fact, by Awakening, it was confirmed that Falchion at its full strength rivals the full power of Naga herself. So Book of Naga would be inferior to Falchion, or at best, rival it. 

Yeah sure, Book of Naga was created for the intent of defeating Loptyr, but what evidence suggests that Falchion couldn't have done the same? 

Hmm, I don't know, maybe the fact that Loptyr was a bigger threat than anything Falchion ever went up against?  If a Falchion was capable of taking down Loptyr, why didn't Naga give Jugdral one? Rather than 11 weapons, and a tome containing her very essence. It took 16 years to take down Loptyr even with all that.

Not to mention its massive stats? I understand sometimes lore is sacrificed for gameplay, but they're not completely separate like you're suggesting. Do not mention Awakening's lore in a serious context with me. I can't even begin to list the massive issues that plagues that games story. That should be saved for different thread. 

2 hours ago, omegaxis1 said:

 

Okay, there might have been a misunderstanding here. I was trying to make an exaggerated mention of how all their stats would be high off the charts, and the character would be incredibly powerful had the actual lore been implemented into the games. 

That's happening far too often for my liking. 

1 hour ago, Levant Mir Celestia said:

 

You ask me, there is nothing to validate - why the hell should I consider Zephiel "good" or "well-written"???

I swear people don't know how to read these days. I said he was one of the better villains in a series that generally has shitty ones. If Sephiran is a good villain, and Zephiel is a flawed Sephiran, how is he not one of the better villains in comparison to the really shitty ones who aren't like Sephiran at all? 

I don't care whether you consider him good or not, nor am I trying to convince you. I was just stating the facts.

Edited January 13, 2018 by Køkø

[omegaxis1]

2 minutes ago, Køkø said:

I've had enough of you. This will be my last response on this matter. I hate the fact the I've gone on this long, apologies the OP for derailing your topic. 

I asked you show me where it states Naga is the strongest dragon in the entire series. So if you don't know if Archaenea and Elibe are related, how do you know that there aren't any dragons there that can match or outperform Naga? And that Elibe's weapons weren't used slay said dragons? You can read my other posts regarding Valentia, I'm not typing all that shit again. 

Okay, I cannot say for certainty, since it was never fully confirmed, that Naga is THE strongest dragon, but given how powerful she's been depicted repeatedly, to the point that she is godlike, despite denying being a god, it stands to reason that her power is immense. 

4 minutes ago, Køkø said:

This means that whatever quality the EDW possess to cause a widespread energy imbalance when clashing with dragons, is not present in any incarnation of Falchion. You said that the BB and Falchion were rivals at best. You are wrong. And the other Divine Weapons are implied to be not too different from the BB in terms of power.

Here's one flaw in your logic. If it took the clash of a large amount of dragons with the Legendary weapons to cause the reality to become warped, why would Falchion, which can be implied to be as strong as the Binding Blade possibly, be able to, when it was just one weapon and it was used to kill more or less just a single dragon really. 

If we have multiple weapons that rivaled Falchion's power and multiple dragons that were engaged in a war, then we might have had something similar happen. But we never did. 

6 minutes ago, Køkø said:

Yeah, you should be facepalming. You didn't read again. I never said it was used against Gharnef. I said it couldn't touch Gharnef. In Archanea/Valentia/Jugdral's world, no other weapon can harm a user with the Darksphere with the exception of the Lightsphere. The Falchion is not the Lightsphere, it cannot beat the Darksphere. This doesn't mean that no other worlds or continents not yet tied to Archaenea lack something that can. Your assumption is not rooted in facts. Mine are.

Maybe I'll hack all of Marth's games one day to get the Falchion early, and see what happens. Just for fun.

Again, how can you claim that Falchion cannot touch Gharnef when Falchion was never used against him to begin with? Furthermore, even if you hack Falchion out, it wouldn't work due to the coding make only Starlight work. So no, your attempt to dissuade this doesn't work, as game coding would not allow actual lore. 

7 minutes ago, Køkø said:

No, missing things is your problem. If the devs thought that Doma was too powerful to be killed by Nosferatu, they would have removed the glitch. If they're willing to undermine their power scale for the sake of a joke, then I will treat it as one. 

You realized how SoV has been criticized for being too loyal on various parts to the original game? This thing with Nosferatu is clearly the same reason. It is a joke, but storywise, it was Alm that killed Duma, not a Nosferatu. 

9 minutes ago, Køkø said:

Hmm, I don't know, maybe the fact that Loptyr was a bigger threat than anything Falchion ever went up against?  If a Falchion was capable of taking down Loptyr, why didn't Naga give Jugdral one? Rather than 11 weapons, and a tome containing her very essence. It took 16 years to take down Loptyr even with all that.

Not to mention its massive stats? I understand sometimes lore is sacrificed for gameplay, but they're not completely separate like you're suggesting. Do not mention Awakening's lore in  a serious context with me. I can't even begin to list the massive issues that plagues that games story. That should be saved for different thread. 

And we also have Grima, who was so powerful that Naga said that she could never kill him, and the best that could do is use Falchion empowered with the Shield of Seals to seal Grima. So no, Loptyr was not the biggest threat. Especially as Grima actually has conquered the world in at the very least two timelines that was foiled by Naga manipulating time and space, either via time traveling or summoning parallel world heroes. 

To be honest, I've had this discussion multiple times, and there's genuinely no clear answer. One could say that Naga had weakened and therefore her fangs would not hold enough power. One is that the Book of Naga is to Loptyr Tome as Starlight is to Imhullu. Or maybe this is Kaga trying something new, not wanting the game's ultimate weapon to be another Falchion, as his last three games all had Falchion be the ultimate weapon to slay the final boss. There is by no means a clear cut answer, and we may never know said answer. 

Actually, I can use Awakening context with you. Why? Because Awakening's context has now replaced much of the original lore now. New lore always does that. I get some issues regarding it, especially since so much was changed in the time periods in between, but regardless, the lore there now states that Falchion's full might when the seal on it is released is said to rival Naga herself. Furthermore, with SoV, Mila mentions how powerful Falchion is, how it is the one and only godslayer. As for the massive stats, I would argue that's a gameplay on the Genealogy thing, how the users of the weapons can feel the power of the dragons themselves that resonates with the Holy Blood. 

Also, in regards to the thing with Loptyr's Holy War needing several years, we have to remember that Loptyr ruled over the entire continent. He had massive manpower and resources at his command to keep the war running as long as possible. The Holy Warriors had to fight in a war and would naturally take several years depending on how the tactical advantage worked. 

[ping]

Guys, you've been going waaaay off-topic.

On 12.1.2018 at 5:16 PM, TheXGamer said:

The Hard mode can be unlocked if you complete the game once, and some units get bonuses, in Hard Mode, but if Intelligent Systems manage to put Normal, and Hard Mode on it on the 1st gameplay, and once Hard Mode is completed, Lunatic Mode will be available, and considering that New Mystery of the Emblem carried out the Casual Mode for new players to enjoy, it will be added on here, but Rutger, Sin, Milady, and Percival get hard mode bonuses, I consider Casual Mode, and Normal Mode to be treated as Easy Mode.

Personally, I don't like the concept of HM bonuses at all. They basically counteract FE6's method of increasing difficulty - i.e. by increasing enemy Numbers - and while it is nice to give players some kind of reward for playing on higher difficulties, I do not think that making the game easier is a good one. ;) If the remake's game design would be similar to the original, some a lot of number tweaking for the player units would be appreciated, though - quite a few units could do with a higher base level (and appropriate stat gains, of course) to make them more immediately useful, or at least less painful to bring to a level where they can contribute.

On 12.1.2018 at 5:16 PM, TheXGamer said:

Seperate Paths.

I'm fine with the route splits, honestly, but I would if the player were just directly asked if he wanted to go North/South (on the Isles) and to Sacae/Ilia, respectively. Hiding information from the player is the biggest sin FE6 (and, lets be honest, most RPGs of that era) commits in general.

On 12.1.2018 at 5:16 PM, TheXGamer said:

The characters.

The full Eugenics package from Genealogy, Awakening and Fates honestly does not fit the Elibe games at all. The character lists of both games aren't really compatible with the concept: FE7 has 31 playable males and only 13 playable females, while FE6 only has 11 characters (if I haven't overlooked anyone) that are canonically or heavily implied to be children of FE7 characters. You can add four characters with some other tie to FE7 (Chad probably grew up in Lucius' and potentially Raven's care, Geese is Geitz' brother, Niime is Canas' mother, and Dayan is Rath's father) and 4 characters (Marcus, Merlinus, Bartre, Karel) that appear in both games. But that still makes 35 characters with no ties to FE6 whatsoever, and I belive most people already find the number of playable characters in FE6 to be too big as is, so there isn't really room to include room for the offspring of FE7's cast.

Somewhat related, FE7 isn't really a true prequel to FE6, but rather a completely self-contained story that plays in the same cosmos. Sure, Roy and Lilina are the kids of FE7's protagonists, and Athos gives us a bit of foreshadowing in regards of Roy fending off Zephiel, Jahn, and Idoun, but the stories themselves do not build on each other at all. In my opinion, trying to wrestle both games into a single two-parter would probably do both of them a disservice.

Something that I would find more fitting is a connection similar to the Tellius games. Not necessarily the stat boosts, but a few minor bonuses and additions if you connect a Remake!FE7 save file to Remake!FE6. Like, give Wolt additional reclassing options if Rebecca gets an A support, or Nino and Canas discovering their family ties means that Lugh and Raigh inherit some personal tomes... Stuff like that. Just don't go the way Fates went and put a complete children mechanism in a plot (or rather two plots) in which it doesn't really make any sense.

21 hours ago, Just call me AL said:

She's proud of her Sacaean heritage, yes. That in itself doesn't make her likely to marry Rath. Especially given how little the interaction between the two actually is.

(not directed at you specifically, just wanting to give my opinion on that)
Honestly, as long as IS doesn't explicitly spells out which pairing is "canon", I find that all of them are equally legitimate, even if they're as heavily implied as Roy/Lilina and Eliwood/Ninian and Lyn/Florina. And given how they even pulled an explaination out of their ass why the Awakening kids don't have their dads' hair colours in Fates, I really don't think that we'll ever get such a thing.

[Køkø]

1 hour ago, omegaxis1 said:

Okay, I cannot say for certainty, since it was never fully confirmed, that Naga is THE strongest dragon, but given how powerful she's been depicted repeatedly, to the point that she is godlike, despite denying being a god, it stands to reason that her power is immense. 

 

My lack of discipline strikes again. There's so much wrong with this. Why don't you make a different thread if you want to keep going with this? I'm sure OP is sick of all the notifications having little to do with his topic. 

It's good you can finally admit this. I've never said she wasn't powerful, just that there was no proof that stronger dragons didn't exist.  

1 hour ago, omegaxis1 said:

 

Here's one flaw in your logic. If it took the clash of a large amount of dragons with the Legendary weapons to cause the reality to become warped, why would Falchion, which can be implied to be as strong as the Binding Blade possibly, be able to, when it was just one weapon and it was used to kill more or less just a single dragon really. 

If we have multiple weapons that rivaled Falchion's power and multiple dragons that were engaged in a war, then we might have had something similar happen. But we never did. 

 

Except it isn't implied to be as strong as the Binding Blade anywhere except Awakening, and I already told you the issue with that. I'm assuming the "single dragon" you're referring to is Idunn? It didn't kill her, it sealed her out of Hartmut's pity(implying sentience), and the recounting of that doesn't mean it wasn't used on other dragons. Whose power levels are unknown. 

1 hour ago, omegaxis1 said:

 

Again, how can you claim that Falchion cannot touch Gharnef when Falchion was never used against him to begin with? Furthermore, even if you hack Falchion out, it wouldn't work due to the coding make only Starlight work. So no, your attempt to dissuade this doesn't work, as game coding would not allow actual lore. 

 

Because that's what both the lore and the game is telling you? Gharnef was holding Falchion to protect Medeus, it's the latter's weakness not his. Why do you think that gameplay effects have nothing to do with the story? I'm not attempting to change your mind, I just can't help responding to something so wrong. You can ignore the facts like you've been doing this entire time all you want, I'd say this whole thing is more my flaw than yours..... 

1 hour ago, omegaxis1 said:

 

You realized how SoV has been criticized for being too loyal on various parts to the original game? This thing with Nosferatu is clearly the same reason. It is a joke, but storywise, it was Alm that killed Duma, not a Nosferatu. 

I'm aware, I was one of them. Keeping the Nosferatu glitch, tedious gameplay, and boring map design, but nerfing Dear,Warp,Falcon Knights and plot in general was particularly annoying to me. As I said before, if they want to undermine their own game for the sake of a joke, I will treat it as one. That's like making Ashera be able to be finished off by a staff, despite being defeated by Ike in the canon.    

1 hour ago, omegaxis1 said:

 

And we also have Grima, who was so powerful that Naga said that she could never kill him, and the best that could do is use Falchion empowered with the Shield of Seals to seal Grima. So no, Loptyr was not the biggest threat. Especially as Grima actually has conquered the world in at the very least two timelines that was foiled by Naga manipulating time and space, either via time traveling or summoning parallel world heroes. 

To be honest, I've had this discussion multiple times, and there's genuinely no clear answer. One could say that Naga had weakened and therefore her fangs would not hold enough power. One is that the Book of Naga is to Loptyr Tome as Starlight is to Imhullu. Or maybe this is Kaga trying something new, not wanting the game's ultimate weapon to be another Falchion, as his last three games all had Falchion be the ultimate weapon to slay the final boss. There is by no means a clear cut answer, and we may never know said answer. 

Actually, I can use Awakening context with you. Why? Because Awakening's context has now replaced much of the original lore now. New lore always does that. I get some issues regarding it, especially since so much was changed in the time periods in between, but regardless, the lore there now states that Falchion's full might when the seal on it is released is said to rival Naga herself. Furthermore, with SoV, Mila mentions how powerful Falchion is, how it is the one and only godslayer. As for the massive stats, I would argue that's a gameplay on the Genealogy thing, how the users of the weapons can feel the power of the dragons themselves that resonates with the Holy Blood. 

I already told you the issue with Awakening and Echoes. Make that thread if you're up for it. 

So if Naga was too weak to make a third Falchion, why the hell is she much more powerful millennia later? After dying, no less? 

Kaga could wanted to do something different, but it doesn't change the fact that the book that contains her essence and summons her per use, is clearly more powerful than the tooth-sword. Not to mention the clear stat and effect advantage. 

If the stats are meant to reflect the power of the dragons, and if all of the Jugdral weapons are significantly stronger than any variation of Falchion, what does that imply? I thought gameplay was unrelated to lore? 

1 hour ago, omegaxis1 said:

 

Also, in regards to the thing with Loptyr's Holy War needing several years, we have to remember that Loptyr ruled over the entire continent. He had massive manpower and resources at his command to keep the war running as long as possible. The Holy Warriors had to fight in a war and would naturally take several years depending on how the tactical advantage worked. 

Meaning he was a bigger threat than anything Falchion ever faced. Jugdral weapons turn the wielders into demi-gods, and they're regarded as such. Only the Book of Naga was capable of defeating Loptyr, even in his weakened human host. Just imagine how powerful Loptyr was during his prime. Are you seriously saying that any amount of human troops could compare to that? Even when the Holy Weapons are shown wiping out large numbers of human enemies effortlessly in FE4?

 

 

Edited January 13, 2018 by Køkø

[omegaxis1]

11 minutes ago, Køkø said:

My lack of discipline strikes again. There's so much wrong with this. Why don't you make a different thread if you want to keep going with this? I'm sure OP is sick of all the notifications having little to do with his topic. 

It's good you can finally admit this. I've never said she wasn't powerful, just that there was no proof that stronger dragons didn't exist.  

We could just go to PM and discuss this if you want. 

12 minutes ago, Køkø said:

Except it isn't implied to be as strong as the Binding Blade anywhere except Awakening, and I already told you the issue with that. I'm assuming the "single dragon" you're referring to is Idunn? It didn't kill her, it sealed her out of Hartmut's pity(implying sentience), and the recounting of that doesn't mean it wasn't used on other dragons. Whose power levels are unknown. 

But at the same time, we cannot assume that the Binding Blade is stronger than Falchion either, as there have been plenty of indication that Falchion is incredibly powerful. Also, I was actually referring to Medeus. Falchion was canonically only used to slay Medeus. Maybe a few dragons here and there in the final map of New Mystery. But overall, Falchion was the only weapon that clashed with just one dragon really. 

Meanwhile, the Legendary Weapons and the Binding Blade were facing off a large number of dragons, the normal ones and the war dragons that Iduun was producing. So there's a much greater chance of a magical imbalance here, since a concentrated area of magic could cause issues. 

16 minutes ago, Køkø said:

Because that's what both the lore and the game is telling you? Gharnef was holding Falchion to protect Medeus, it's the latter's weakness not his. Why do you think that gameplay effects have nothing to do with the story? I'm not attempting to change your mind, I just can't help responding to something so wrong. You can ignore the facts like you've been doing this entire time all you want, I'd say this whole thing is more my flaw than yours..... 

You aren't completely wrong. I never said that you are wrong. Maybe Falchion would never have worked against Imhullu. But at the same time, there's no guarantee that it might not, as Falchion was always in Gharnef's possession. Also, Gharnef wasn't holding Falchion to protect Medeus. He wanted to use it against Medeus himself so he could rule the land himself. Just clearing that one up. 

19 minutes ago, Køkø said:

I'm aware, I was one of them. Keeping the Nosferatu glitch, tedious gameplay, and boring map design, but nerfing Dear,Warp,Falcon Knights and plot in general was particularly annoying to me. As I said before, if they want to undermine their own game for the sake of a joke, I will treat it as one. That's like making Ashera be able to be finished off by a staff, despite being defeated by Ike in the canon.    

So we can at the very least agree that lore-wise, Duma was too strong to be killed by anything other than Falchion lore-wise, like how Ike needs Yune's power to defeat Ashera. 

18 minutes ago, Køkø said:

I already told you the issue with Awakening and Echoes. Make that thread if you're up for it. 

So if Naga was too weak to make a third Falchion, why the hell is she much more powerful millennia later? After dying, no less? 

Kaga could wanted to do something different, but it doesn't change the fact that the book that contains her essence and summons her per use, is clearly more powerful than the tooth-sword. Not to mention the clear stat and effect advantage. 

If the stats are meant to reflect the power of the dragons, and if all of the Jugdral weapons are significantly stronger than any variation of Falchion, what does that imply? I thought gameplay was unrelated to lore? 

Well, it is still part of the lore. We can't just ignore it. But anyways:

The weakening thing is possible as she had literally just gotten out of a savage war with the Earth Dragons, so I highly doubt she'd have gotten out of that unscathed. And there is proof that being weakened affects the fang, as Nagi, Naga's reincarnation, gave a Falchion that's weaker than the original in Shadow Dragon. One can theorize that if Naga was weakened and a new Falchion wouldn't be enough, she would go for the next case, being putting all her power into a tome so it can go as far as rival Falchion. See, here's how I interpret it. Falchion is in fact the weapon that holds all of Naga's power withOUT the drawback of her will influencing the person. Book of Naga holds her power while her will influences the holders, something that Naga was uneasy about. 

I didn't completely disregard the lore from the game. I just say that the game doesn't always utilize the lore, from the case of the Gemstones and Shield of Seals. 

As for Naga reappearing, Future Past implies that this Naga might not necessarily be the original Naga, as Naga has become a role more or less (though I think this Naga is Nagi). But the power might still be that of the original Naga using Tiki, who is heavily implied to have powers rivaling her mother. When Tiki became the new Naga, she immediately helped perform the Awakening and gave Falchion the power to defeat Grima. 

Anyways, even though the Book of Naga is incredibly powerful, we cannot also disregard the case of how Medeus, the Earth Dragon Prince, who became a Dark Dragon, was defeated using Falchion as well. Even Gotoh mentions that without Falchion, no one can stop Medeus.

30 minutes ago, Køkø said:

Meaning he was a bigger threat than anything Falchion ever faced. Jugdral weapons turn the wielders into demi-gods, and they're regarded as such. Only the Book of Naga was capable of defeating Loptyr, even in his weakened human host. Just imagine how powerful Loptyr was during his prime. Are you seriously saying that any amount of human troops could compare to that? Even when the Holy Weapons are shown wiping out large numbers of human enemies effortlessly in FE4?

No, do not misunderstand me.

For one thing, Loptyr was still in his prime. The Loptyr tome contains ALL of his power and will. 

Yes, the Holy Weapons are powerful, but the humans are not invincible. And Loptyr didn't control just a single kingdom, like other villains have. He had control over the entirety of the continent since he had no one capable of opposing him while Naga was out. Naga and the other dragons coming in only gave the humans a chance to fight back, but Loptyr still have many people to help. Not to mention, if these guys are also trying to liberate the continent, they cannot go on a mass slaughter. They have to defeat the enemy and also rescue others, such as children from the child hunts. 

So they would have to all try and lead their armies to work more and more with liberating place. And Loptyr could also launch counterattacks using tactics and maintain control.

Meaning the war can drag on for a while despite the 12 humans having a great power now.

[Slumber]

20 hours ago, Just call me AL said:

If returning to the plains is "more within her character", then why does this conversation in particular happen regardless of Lyn's Supports?

  Reveal hidden contents

Lyn:
“Eliwood! Wait!”

Eliwood:
“What is it, Lyndis?”

Lyn:
“Is it true what Nergal said?”

Eliwood:
“You mean about Lord Uther?”

Lyn:
“He said he’s dead… When– Did you know, Eliwood?!”

Eliwood:
“…Hector has been acting a little strange… So I forced Oswin to tell me. It was the same illness that took his father. The sickness came on suddenly. It took less than a year for the disease to spread.”

Lyn:
“So when we met him in Castle Ostia, he was…”

Eliwood:
“He was dying. …Yet…he… He didn’t want Hector or us to know… He pushed himself too far. I’m sure he was told he shouldn’t be moving about…”

Lyn:
“Hector *sob* when *sob* when did he…”

Eliwood:
“Only recently… He figured it out when he saw Lord Uther wasn’t at the castle. He pressed Oswin to tell him. ……After that, so as not to distract us, Hector pretended that nothing was amiss…”

Lyn:
“*sob* *sob* That’s…no-- *sob* That’s... *sob*”

Eliwood:
“Lyndis…”

I mean, based on what's happening towards the end of this conversation, it seems pretty obvious what Lyn wants to do. And unfortunately, she can't do what this conversation indicates what she wants to do unless if she's supported with Hector. And considering the circumstances behind her following through with her emotions by that conversation's conclusion, giving in to her own emotions is "a complete betrayal to her character", how?

I have no idea what you mean by "It seems pretty obvious what Lyn wants to do".

The ending of that conversation has her questioning when Hector learned that her friend, his brother, and plot-relevant character Uther, died.

I assume you mean she wants to be with Hector, but that's not exclusive to Hector on either path, either. She wants to go with Matthew as he buries Leila, and she wants to be with Eliwood longer while he's(Seemingly) still grieving over his father, and she doesn't want him fighting in chapter 20/21. It's just who Lyn is, she often likes to play emotional support and be a shoulder to lean on. I don't see her wanting to be there for Hector as he's grieving.

If you're implying that that one conversation is what leads to her settling down with Hector, then I really, really don't see it. I can't see that extending "Lyn wants to give up the Sacean heritage she's proud of and the Nomad life she took over ruling Caelin for to be with Hector because she's sad his brother died."

5 hours ago, omegaxis1 said:

Zephiel sees the monstrosity of his father, and has an entire history book of how many wars humanity has gone through. Humans suck. 

Not to mention it was humans that started the Scouring. 

Look, I get Zephiel has daddy issues. It's a common theme for villains.

But Zephiel's turn from "Loved by literally everybody in his kingdom besides his father" to "Humanity is shit because my daddy didn't love me" is very, very poor character development for him. He's portrayed as being this perfect angel of a character with no flaws who everyone in Bern adored in FE7, and because of a few assassination attempts by his clearly unhinged and deranged father causes him to go on a one-man conquest... It feels like some bad fanfiction level writing for when somebody needs to introduce a villain and has no idea how to.

Compared to Seriphan living for hundreds and thousands of years, only to see all of his good deeds go undone and all of his good will be abused by humanity, only for it to finally crack when he sees his entire race nearly go extinct at the hands of humanity. It's a much more believable path to becoming a villain than "My daddy tried to kill me, so everyone must die, long live dragons."

It's absolutely something I would want re-written in a hypothetical Binding/Blazing Blade remake. Maybe focus more on him emphathizing with dragons and being upset with humanity BEFORE he goes nuts. Or maybe show him growing cold over the constant in-fighting between houses in Elibe. Don't focus 95% on one guy trying to kill him driving him to try to genocide his own race.

Edited January 14, 2018 by Slumber

[omegaxis1]

3 minutes ago, Slumber said:

Look, I get Zephiel has daddy issues. It's a common theme for villains.

But Zephiel's turn from "Loved by literally everybody in his kingdom besides his father" to "Humanity is shit because my daddy didn't love me" is very, very poor character development for him. He's portrayed as being this perfect angel of a character with no flaws who everyone in Bern adored in FE7, and because of a few assassination attempts by his clearly unhinged and deranged father causes him to go on a one-man conquest is some bad fanfiction level writing for when somebody needs to introduce a villain and has no idea how to.

Compared to Seriphan living for hundreds and thousands of years, only to see all of his good deeds go undone and all of his good will be abused by humanity, only for it to finally crack when he sees his entire race nearly go extinct at the hands of humanity... It's a much more believable path to becoming a villain than "My daddy tried to kill me, so everyone must die, long live dragons."

You have a strong point. This in fact could actually be improved. Make Zephiel see more cases of what unhinges him further. He doesn't need to be like Sephiran and see it for a long time, but just enough to believe that humans aren't worthy of living. 

[Slumber]

9 minutes ago, omegaxis1 said:

You have a strong point. This in fact could actually be improved. Make Zephiel see more cases of what unhinges him further. He doesn't need to be like Sephiran and see it for a long time, but just enough to believe that humans aren't worthy of living. 

Yeah, I think there's room to make Zephiel being a good villain. Most villains don't get two games of build-up. Building him up from FE7 and giving him more scenes to show him discovering things that could make him break would make him a bit more understandable in FE6. And potentially not having him be quite as extreme as he is in FE6. Turn him from an irredeemable bad guy to somebody clearly trying to right some wrongs, or something that seems a bit more in-line with his characterization of being a nice kid.

But as he is... I really don't like how he's written.

Edited January 14, 2018 by Slumber

[omegaxis1]

16 minutes ago, Slumber said:

Yeah, I think there's room to make Zephiel being a good villain. Most villains don't get two games of build-up. Building him up from FE7 and giving him more scenes to show him discovering things that could make him break would make him a bit more understandable in FE6. And potentially not having him be quite as extreme as he is in FE6. Turn him from an irredeemable bad guy to somebody clearly trying to right some wrongs, or something that seems a bit more in-line with his characterization of being a nice kid.

But as he is... I really don't like how he's written.

I don't think they'll change his belief that humanity should not exist and dragons should rule. One thing about his character that is interesting is that he doesn't change his mind. He never believes for a moment even at his death, that humanity is worth saving. He isn't all wrong about humanity sucking, but there being more reason than just his parents abuse. Why would he think that dragons would be better? Has he ever met a dragon? 

[Shadow Mir]

6 hours ago, omegaxis1 said:

Zephiel sees the monstrosity of his father, and has an entire history book of how many wars humanity has gone through. Humans suck. 

Not to mention it was humans that started the Scouring. 

This just doesn't sound very credible to me - Zephiel was portrayed in pretty much a Gary Stu-esque light in FE7. It'd be a VERY hard sell to convince me that he could go from that to what you see in FE6 just because of one person...

6 hours ago, Køkø said:

I swear people don't know how to read these days. I said he was one of the better villains in a series that generally has shitty ones. If Sephiran is a good villain, and Zephiel is a flawed Sephiran, how is he not one of the better villains in comparison to the really shitty ones who aren't like Sephiran at all? 

I don't care whether you consider him good or not, nor am I trying to convince you. I was just stating the facts.

Ha! I can say the same of you! I said earlier that Zephiel was Sephiran without the stuff that made Sephiran good. And in spite of this, you continually try to push Zephiel as a good villain despite your analogy having more holes than Swiss cheese. I mean, really??? How can Zephiel be a good villain when the writing just isn't there to make a convincing case for him?? Like I said earlier, I have an extremely hard time believing that he could go from this perfect angel who was pretty much universally loved in FE7 to an omnicidal maniac in FE6 all because of one person... 

[Køkø]

3 hours ago, Levant Mir Celestia said:

 

Ha! I can say the same of you! I said earlier that Zephiel was Sephiran without the stuff that made Sephiran good. And in spite of this, you continually try to push Zephiel as a good villain despite your analogy having more holes than Swiss cheese. I mean, really??? How can Zephiel be a good villain when the writing just isn't there to make a convincing case for him?? Like I said earlier, I have an extremely hard time believing that he could go from this perfect angel who was pretty much universally loved in FE7 to an omnicidal maniac in FE6 all because of one person... 

False, you cannot. You cannot even show me where I even said Zephiel was good or well-written. 

Rather it's you who's been trying to tell me how shitty he is, while I was more curious about your rebuttal to my statement. Not defending him, or trying to convince you he's good.

 

 

On 1/12/2018 at 12:37 PM, Levant Mir Celestia said:

 Also, imho, I fail to see how Zephiel was one of the most well-written villains in the series.

 

On 1/12/2018 at 5:00 PM, Køkø said:

 

 

He's one of the better villains in the series. Which isn't saying too much. 

 

On 1/12/2018 at 8:30 PM, Levant Mir Celestia said:

 

To be frank, I'm unconvinced when Zephiel is basically Sephiran without the stuff that made Sephiran a good villain.

 

On 1/12/2018 at 8:42 PM, Køkø said:

 

And if you feel like making a tier list, go right ahead. I have to ask though, if Sephiran's a good villain, and Zephiel is weaker Sephiran, how does that not validate my statement?

Maybe wording it different would make more sense to you? How can you invalidate my statement? What are the tiers of greatness in FE villain writing? And how does Zephiel not land in the middle of said tiers? Get to work on that tier list if you want to prove me wrong. Should be easy given my analogy (which is actually yours, by the way,) is swiss cheese, right? 

 

 

On 1/12/2018 at 8:55 PM, Levant Mir Celestia said:

Far as I'm concerned, Sephiran works (and Zephiel falls short) because he actually has legitimate reasons for his actions. Zephiel does not.

 

10 hours ago, Levant Mir Celestia said:

 

You ask me, there is nothing to validate - why the hell should I consider Zephiel "good" or "well-written"???

This is more of you trying to tell me Zephiel isn't good, in addition to quoting things I never said. Do you understand now?

[ping]

8 hours ago, Slumber said:

But Zephiel's turn from "Loved by literally everybody in his kingdom besides his father" to "Humanity is shit because my daddy didn't love me" is very, very poor character development for him. He's portrayed as being this perfect angel of a character with no flaws who everyone in Bern adored in FE7, and because of a few assassination attempts by his clearly unhinged and deranged father causes him to go on a one-man conquest... It feels like some bad fanfiction level writing for when somebody needs to introduce a villain and has no idea how to.

As far as I can tell, the bolded part is exactly what is supposed to have made Zephiel snap - he was doing everything that is humanly possible to make daddy love him, or at least appreciate him, with the known results. I'm not psychologically learned, but I do know that being unwanted by one's parents can be a cause of mental illness, and in Zephiel's case, "unwanted" is taken to a ridiculous extreme, although I will admit that so is his reaction. But honestly, I don't find that his motivation is completely out of left field.