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18 hours ago, Slumber said:

The ending of that conversation has her questioning when Hector learned that her friend, his brother, and plot-relevant character Uther, died.

No. She's questioning when Hector learned Uther died when she started to cry in that conversation. The conversation's end has her thinking about how Hector can't keep his sadness about Uther's death bottled up inside. She knows that Hector needs comfort, and can't even bring himself to cry for Uther despite wanting to. And because of that, she wants to give Hector comfort.

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I assume you mean she wants to be with Hector, but that's not exclusive to Hector on either path, either. She wants to go with Matthew as he buries Leila, and she wants to be with Eliwood longer while he's(Seemingly) still grieving over his father, and she doesn't want him fighting in chapter 20/21.

However, Lyn doesn't feel as strongly about each of them as she does about Hector. Especially since when Eliwood tells her about Uther's death takes place during a time frame where Hector would have already confessed to Lyn. That's the main difference.

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It's just who Lyn is, she often likes to play emotional support and be a shoulder to lean on. I don't see her wanting to be there for Hector as he's grieving.

Even though this conversation happens after Eliwood tells her about Uther's death?

Spoiler

Hector:
“…What is it?”

Lyn:
“Hector *sob* I’m certain *sob* that *sob* you did not *sob* cry. *sob* So, I will. *sob* This *sob*is your share *sob* of tears. *sob* Don’t say *sob* anything. Just, for a little while, let me lean on you. For a little while.”

Hector:
“……”

Lyn:
“*sob* *sob* *sob* *sob* *sob* *sob* *sob* Don’t...”

Hector:
“Hm?”

Lyn:
“*sob* Don’t die *sob* Please, you–“

Hector:
“…I know.”

And I should note that this conversation, in addition to Lyn being told about Uther's death by Eliwood, the requirements this conversation has in order to happen has Lyn being there for Hector as he's grieving anyways. I doubt that I.S. would have gone through the trouble giving Hector and Lyn a conversation that connects to Hector's paired endings and not do the same with Hector's other potential spouses if they didn't intend for Hector/Lyn to canonically happen.

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If you're implying that that one conversation is what leads to her settling down with Hector, then I really, really don't see it.

You're right in that it's not the only conversation that leads up to Lyn settling down with Hector. There's also the various other interactions she has with Hector outside of supports, And Hector's confession of love to Lyn. And the conversation where Lyn is crying for Uther on Hector's behalf. I.E., the stuff that I doubt that I.S. would have included without intent. After all, it's the kind of exposure that they gave to Eliwood/Ninian in the same game.

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I can't see that extending "Lyn wants to give up the Sacean heritage she's proud of and the Nomad life she took over ruling Caelin for to be with Hector because she's sad his brother died."

I never said that she'd be giving up her Nomadic heritage by setting down with Hector. Only that she never mentions that she wants to return to Sacae if she's paired with him or Eliwood. That's a big difference. And if it's all the same, I can't see her just abandoning her grandfather's legacy and leaving someone who had just gotten himself into the same familial situation she's in all alone. And it's asinine to think that settling down with Hector would automatically make her simply "forget about the plains". In fact, who's to say that Lyn's time on the plains don't become the basis behind whatever stories she's telling Lilina, the FE6 character that would be her child after settling down with Hector, when Lilina herself is still young?

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18 hours ago, Slumber said:

It's absolutely something I would want re-written in a hypothetical Binding/Blazing Blade remake. Maybe focus more on him emphathizing with dragons and being upset with humanity BEFORE he goes nuts. Or maybe show him growing cold over the constant in-fighting between houses in Elibe. Don't focus 95% on one guy trying to kill him driving him to try to genocide his own race.

Or throw a damper into Hellene's change to good mother after the Eliwood talk. Clearly she was messing him up with her obsession on him as an object to her glory. She tried to reconnect with Desmond, but tensions remained, the return to bliss collapsed, and she went back to seeing Zephiel as her tool. Desmond and Hellene thus resume a war of words over the succession to the Bernese throne, with a growing Zephiel noticing it and soaking in the venom. Now we have two awful parents instead of one, this is more believable.

Between Daddy Hates Me and Mommy Uses Me and all their cronies who show up in his daily existence, he becomes convinced that his family is a microcosm of the world as a whole, and thus humanity is garbage.

Within this context, Murdoch stubbornly refused to bend to Hellene or Desmond, whilst still exercising sufficient talent and tenacity to keep his high position in place. Brunya, I don't think she gets much if any backstory in FE6 about why she loved Zephiel, so it could be she was a young court mage or something who saw the prince's suffering and gradually worked through the ranks in hopes of serving him some day.

But Zephiel doesn't know what he wants to do once he takes the throne of Bern, as evidenced by his rather bored expression the FE7 CG.  Given, Zephiel is made out to be something of a learned child in FE7, it wouldn't be hard to add in a FE6 remake that he read a lot, including on the Scouring and dragonkind. Then comes Jahn, who gives his own account of dragonkind, which completely contradicts that of the human written and human-centric texts Zephiel read. Since Zephiel already hates humanity, he uncritically jumps on board with Jahn's account as being Truth, because it is anti-human and from a non-human source. He isn't so much a dragon-lover, as he is a humanity hater and once he saw any alternative to humanity, he ran with it all the way. How to include this? Just relocate some of Jahn's plot dump in C24 to the Gaidens and fill in the removal with new information.

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35 minutes ago, Just call me AL said:

*first part snip*

The thing that confused me was that you used one conversation that showed that Lyn felt sad for Hector over the death of Uther, a trait she shows multiple times over the course of the game, as a blanket conversation that covers ALL of her post-Uther interactions with Hector and said "I think it's pretty clear what it's implying".

I disagreed. This follow up did a much better job at showing what you were getting at, which I still don't really agree with, however.

39 minutes ago, Just call me AL said:

I never said that she'd be giving up her Nomadic heritage by setting down with Hector. Only that she never mentions that she wants to return to Sacae if she's paired with him or Eliwood. That's a big difference. And if it's all the same, I can't see her just abandoning her grandfather's legacy and leaving someone who had just gotten himself into the same familial situation she's in all alone. And it's asinine to think that settling down with Hector would automatically make her simply "forget about the plains". In fact, who's to say that Lyn's time on the plains don't become the basis behind whatever stories she's telling Lilina, the FE6 character that would be her child after settling down with Hector, when Lilina herself is still young?

Sacae is about as far from both Ostia and Pharae as you can get in Elibe, and it's blocked off from Lycia by a giant mountain range. You have to go through Bern to get to it, which during Zephiel's rise to power, I don't think much needs to be said about how impractical Lyn being to "get away" to the plains. It's not like Bern during Lyndis' life, where she could go to Caelin to see her grandfather before he dies, and the mountains of Bern were only bandits.

Her life as a nomadic Sacean ends with marriage to either Eliwood and Hector. You can make assumptions that maybe she did... SOMETHING in whatever castle she ties down to to keep her tied to her Sacaen heritage, but short of living in a yurt on the castle grounds, I have no idea what that would be. The only really explicit ways in which we KNOW that she embraces her heritage, which is something you really, really have to work for her to not do, is when she goes back to the plains of Sacea in the other 3 of her endings.

Maybe saying it's a "Betrayal" to her character is a bit strong, but if in 4 of the 5 paths to her endings she mentions strongly longing to go back to the plains of Sacea, what sounds truer to her character? The 3 endings that do lead to her going back, the 1 ending that has her marrying into royalty despite mentioning that she wants to go back, or the 1 ending that has her marrying into royalty and not mentioning that she wants to go back?

And in EVERY SINGLE one of Lyn's endings, Caelin folds into Ostia, because Caelin is a part of Ostia in FE6. That's just how it works. She never carries her grandfather's legacy, she either lives as Eliwood's wife and has no more ties to Caelin, she lives as Hector's wife and isn't explicitly said to have any power beyond being support for Hector(She gets the same generic ending as Hector's other partners), or goes back to the plains with Kent or Rath, or on her own.

What about Lilina? Who's to say Florina or Farina don't do the exact same thing? Florina ultimately has the same adventure Lyn has, and Farina's a globe-trotting mercenary. The many stories Lilina hears from her mother don't really equate to "Oh, that could only be Lyn" in my eyes.

20 minutes ago, Interdimensional Observer said:

Or throw a damper into Hellene's change to good mother after the Eliwood talk. Clearly she was messing him up with her obsession on him as an object to her glory. She tried to reconnect with Desmond, but tensions remained, the return to bliss collapsed, and she went back to seeing Zephiel as her tool. Desmond and Hellene thus resume a war of words over the succession to the Bernese throne, with a growing Zephiel noticing it and soaking in the venom. Now we have two awful parents instead of one, this is more believable.

Between Daddy Hates Me and Mommy Uses Me and all their cronies who show up in his daily existence, he becomes convinced that his family is a microcosm of the world as a whole, and thus humanity is garbage.

Within this context, Murdoch stubbornly refused to bend to Hellene or Desmond, whilst still exercising sufficient talent and tenacity to keep his high position in place. Brunya, I don't think she gets much if any backstory in FE6 about why she loved Zephiel, so it could be she was a young court mage or something who saw the prince's suffering and gradually worked through the ranks in hopes of serving him some day.

But Zephiel doesn't know what he wants to do once he takes the throne of Bern, as evidenced by his rather bored expression the FE7 CG.  Given, Zephiel is made out to be something of a learned child in FE7, it wouldn't be hard to add in a FE6 remake that he read a lot, including on the Scouring and dragonkind. Then comes Jahn, who gives his own account of dragonkind, which completely contradicts that of the human written and human-centric texts Zephiel read. Since Zephiel already hates humanity, he uncritically jumps on board with Jahn's account as being Truth, because it is anti-human and from a non-human source. He isn't so much a dragon-lover, as he is a humanity hater and once he saw any alternative to humanity, he ran with it all the way. How to include this? Just relocate some of Jahn's plot dump in C24 to the Gaidens and fill in the removal with new information.

There are a lot of gaps you could fill, and I think part of why Zephiel feels so half-baked is that I don't think he was really the focal point of the developer's thoughts when they decided to make a prequel to FE6. For FE6, they probably thought "Oh, let's have a generic ruler who wants to do generic bad guy stuff like Raydrik or something.", and then they tacked on the Gary Stu personality and the laughably underdeveloped assassination attempts by his father.

As he is now, it almost hurts his character to that we know as much as we do, because it feels like the developers didn't really care to develop his path to being a dragon supremacist.

His mother being abusive/manipulative could help, since now you don't have one doting parent and one abusive one, with him arbitrarily deciding all of humanity is like the abusive parent. It'd help draw a clearer picture that he didn't feel like he had anyone to turn to besides his sister Guinivere, and his stoic, supportive knight Murdock.

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39 minutes ago, Interdimensional Observer said:

Or throw a damper into Hellene's change to good mother after the Eliwood talk. Clearly she was messing him up with her obsession on him as an object to her glory. She tried to reconnect with Desmond, but tensions remained, the return to bliss collapsed, and she went back to seeing Zephiel as her tool. Desmond and Hellene thus resume a war of words over the succession to the Bernese throne, with a growing Zephiel noticing it and soaking in the venom. Now we have two awful parents instead of one, this is more believable.

Between Daddy Hates Me and Mommy Uses Me and all their cronies who show up in his daily existence, he becomes convinced that his family is a microcosm of the world as a whole, and thus humanity is garbage.

Within this context, Murdoch stubbornly refused to bend to Hellene or Desmond, whilst still exercising sufficient talent and tenacity to keep his high position in place. Brunya, I don't think she gets much if any backstory in FE6 about why she loved Zephiel, so it could be she was a young court mage or something who saw the prince's suffering and gradually worked through the ranks in hopes of serving him some day.

But Zephiel doesn't know what he wants to do once he takes the throne of Bern, as evidenced by his rather bored expression the FE7 CG.  Given, Zephiel is made out to be something of a learned child in FE7, it wouldn't be hard to add in a FE6 remake that he read a lot, including on the Scouring and dragonkind. Then comes Jahn, who gives his own account of dragonkind, which completely contradicts that of the human written and human-centric texts Zephiel read. Since Zephiel already hates humanity, he uncritically jumps on board with Jahn's account as being Truth, because it is anti-human and from a non-human source. He isn't so much a dragon-lover, as he is a humanity hater and once he saw any alternative to humanity, he ran with it all the way. How to include this? Just relocate some of Jahn's plot dump in C24 to the Gaidens and fill in the removal with new information.

You know, that would make a lot of sense. He grows to hate or feel hopelessness from humanity because of his parents abuse, and if he goes to find from Jahn that humans not only started the war, but slaughtered the majority of dragonkin, and even rewrote history to blame the dragons for the Ending Winter, and Zephiel would begin to see the human race as a cruel, manipulative race that will only go through a path of madness and ruin. 

Also, I don't think that it's that unrealistic for a guy that was so bright and cheery to become cold-hearted and sociopathic from the "daddy issues". If you yearn for love and acceptance from someone so much, only to be rejected to the bitter end, it can truly warp a person's mind. Zephiel wanted to be loved by his father and to not feel so burdened by his mother. But they never stopped. How much abuse can one take before they snap? 

Frankly, Zephiel really doesn't NEED to have a big logical reason to want genocide. There are people out there that just wants the world to burn, with no real reason behind it. Zephiel's perspective is that if a father would go as far as to try and murder his child when that child's sin is apparently simply existing, why should he care for all the other humans? To him, his world had died the moment that he killed his own father. And a person who's own world is gone, they can easily just stop caring. 

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RE: Lyn - It might be worth noting that Lyn decided to go live with her grandfather with no hesitation whatsoever, even though she had never seen him before. And even though she and Eliwood were anything but close (I don't think they met between the Lundgren incident and the fight against Laus), she instantly agreed to help him, wanting to prevent Eliwood from losing his father like she did.

Yes, it's clear that Lyn has strong ties to the plains of Sacae, but it's equally clear that she values family and friendship very highly, too. Is it really unthinkable that she would choose love over her home? She certainly wouldn't be the first person in fiction or reality to do so - my sister moved to Bavaria of all places with her boyfriend, ffs. ;)

Anyway, I'll repeat my conviction that any remake(s) will go out of their way not to sink any ships that have sailed in the originals.

Edited by ping

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40 minutes ago, ping said:

RE: Lyn - It might be worth noting that Lyn decided to go live with her grandfather with no hesitation whatsoever, even though she had never seen him before. And even though she and Eliwood were anything but close (I don't think they met between the Lundgren incident and the fight against Laus), she instantly agreed to help him, wanting to prevent Eliwood from losing his father like she did.

Yes, it's clear that Lyn has strong ties to the plains of Sacae, but it's equally clear that she values family and friendship very highly, too. Is it really unthinkable that she would choose love over her home? She certainly wouldn't be the first person in fiction or reality to do so - my sister moved to Bavaria of all places with her boyfriend, ffs. ;)

She stays with Hausen for a few months, and the epilogue of Lyn mode has her standing atop a hill, looking back towards Sacea, with the text straight up saying she longed to go back to the plains. And by the time of her adventures with Eliwood and Hector, is expressing a desire to go back to the plains to all of her potential love interests except for Hector. COuld she choose a love one over the plains? Sure. But even your example of her staying with her grandfather in Caelin castle shows that she'd rather be in the plains.

Your sister may have moved out to the old country, but was "Man I love living in the city" an intrinsic part of her personality, or did she simply enjoy the convenience of city life(Assuming she grew up in the city if Bavaria was a massive change of pace for her)? Plus, the one thing that separates your sister from Lyn is that your sister is a real person. Real people aren't as static as fictional characters. What we see is what we get with a lot of fictional characters, and part of Lyn's character, shown in both her own mode and in Hector and Eliwood's modes through most of her supports, is that she really likes the plains of Sacea. To the point where it is an intrinsic part of her character. It comes up in nearly all of her supports and her own campaign is capped off with her wanting to go back.

40 minutes ago, ping said:

Anyway, I'll repeat my conviction that any remake(s) will go out of their way not to sink any ships that have sailed in the originals.

I agree. Unless they go the route I want and they remake FE7 before FE6, in which case I can see them adding a bit of dialogue like they did with PoR supports adding dialogue to RD. I don't think they'll make any pairings "canon", outside of maybe side ones like Nino and Jaffar or stuff like that.

1 hour ago, omegaxis1 said:

Frankly, Zephiel really doesn't NEED to have a big logical reason to want genocide. There are people out there that just wants the world to burn, with no real reason behind it. Zephiel's perspective is that if a father would go as far as to try and murder his child when that child's sin is apparently simply existing, why should he care for all the other humans? To him, his world had died the moment that he killed his own father. And a person who's own world is gone, they can easily just stop caring. 

I'm going to disagree heavily here.

You absolutely need a reason to want to genocide your own race. There are people who want to watch the world burn, but most of them are psychopaths who usually don't get anywhere. People like the Joker can only exist in comics because it's a HUUUUUUGE stretch that anybody like him would last very long. The closest we've probably gotten in modern times is Charles Manson, and his cult managed to kill a handful of people, not something bordering on genocide.

Zephiel not having a solid reason for his actions is incredibly unbelievable for a person like him, even as somebody who inherited vast power. Especially if they want to go with the route that they were starting to go with in FE7. In FE7, he had the support of his mother, the whole country, his sister, and Murdock. As bad as abuse can warp peoples' minds, it's really far-fetched to have somebody who basically had the entire world to support him, except for his father who tried to unsuccessfully assassinate him to suddenly hate ALL of humanity to the point where he wants to exterminate it.

Fire Emblem has tried to do crazy, illogical, completely unhinged antagonists before. They NEVER turn out well compared to the understandable villains with believable backstories.

Edited by Slumber

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14 minutes ago, Slumber said:

I'm going to disagree heavily here.

You absolutely need a reason to want to genocide your own race. There are people who want to watch the world burn, but most of them are psychopaths who usually don't get anywhere. People like the Joker can only exist in comics because it's a HUUUUUUGE stretch that anybody like him would last very long. The closest we've probably gotten in modern times is Charles Manson, and his cult managed to kill a handful of people, not something bordering on genocide.

Zephiel not having a solid reason for his actions is incredibly unbelievable for a person like him, even as somebody who inherited vast power. Especially if they want to go with the route that they were starting to go with in FE7. In FE7, he had the support of his mother, the whole country, his sister, and Murdock. As bad as abuse can warp peoples' minds, it's really far-fetched to have somebody who basically had the entire world to support him, except for his father who tried to unsuccessfully assassinate him to suddenly hate ALL of humanity to the point where he wants to exterminate it.

Fire Emblem has tried to do crazy, illogical, completely unhinged antagonists before. They NEVER turn out well compared to the understandable villains with believable backstories.

Not necessarily. Like I said before, how much pressure can someone stand before they snap. Zephiel had all this case of expectations, which was increased by his mother, and this also caused his father to resent Zephiel even more. Furthermore, while you are correct that there might be some bit of a stretch, I don't think its out of the realm of possibility. If you feel the world has wronged you or rejects you, then you reject it. His deep love and admiration of his father was his world, and when he killed his father, he also destroyed his world. 

Also, Zephiel keeps mentioning madness in humanity. What's to say that Zephiel actually hasn't grown mad? But rather than the mad cackling that other villains do, Zephiel's madness is used through a much more cold, calm look. If we can actually consider Zephiel to have gone insane, just showing to look calm and collected, then it really isn't out of the possibility for him to want genocide. Logic doesn't apply to insane people. 

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58 minutes ago, omegaxis1 said:

Not necessarily. Like I said before, how much pressure can someone stand before they snap. Zephiel had all this case of expectations, which was increased by his mother, and this also caused his father to resent Zephiel even more. Furthermore, while you are correct that there might be some bit of a stretch, I don't think its out of the realm of possibility. If you feel the world has wronged you or rejects you, then you reject it. His deep love and admiration of his father was his world, and when he killed his father, he also destroyed his world.

But that's giving him a reason that'd be one thing, but the jump from "My world is destroyed" to "Humanity must be exterminated" is HUGE.

58 minutes ago, omegaxis1 said:

Also, Zephiel keeps mentioning madness in humanity. What's to say that Zephiel actually hasn't grown mad? But rather than the mad cackling that other villains do, Zephiel's madness is used through a much more cold, calm look. If we can actually consider Zephiel to have gone insane, just showing to look calm and collected, then it really isn't out of the possibility for him to want genocide. Logic doesn't apply to insane people. 

FE6 portrays Zephiel as definitely dangerous and a bit unhinged, but never full-blown insane. The links from FE7 do very little to show us how the man in FE6 turned into who he is.

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4 hours ago, Just call me AL said:

No. She's questioning when Hector learned Uther died when she started to cry in that conversation. The conversation's end has her thinking about how Hector can't keep his sadness about Uther's death bottled up inside. She knows that Hector needs comfort, and can't even bring himself to cry for Uther despite wanting to. And because of that, she wants to give Hector comfort.

However, Lyn doesn't feel as strongly about each of them as she does about Hector. Especially since when Eliwood tells her about Uther's death takes place during a time frame where Hector would have already confessed to Lyn. That's the main difference.

Even though this conversation happens after Eliwood tells her about Uther's death?

  Reveal hidden contents

Hector:
“…What is it?”

Lyn:
“Hector *sob* I’m certain *sob* that *sob* you did not *sob* cry. *sob* So, I will. *sob* This *sob*is your share *sob* of tears. *sob* Don’t say *sob* anything. Just, for a little while, let me lean on you. For a little while.”

Hector:
“……”

Lyn:
“*sob* *sob* *sob* *sob* *sob* *sob* *sob* Don’t...”

Hector:
“Hm?”

Lyn:
“*sob* Don’t die *sob* Please, you–“

Hector:
“…I know.”

 

So I'm done reading. Slumber pretty much said everything I was going to, so me adding on would be redundant. But I don't want to piggyback sooo, here's something he didn't mention.

 

Elibe's pretty racist towards Sacaens. Especially Lycia, as Araphen, Lundgren, and her ending with Eliwood imply. It doesn't seem likely someone as proud as Lyn would live in castle and deal with that shit. Racism aside, Lyn states multiple times that she is uncomfortable around nobility and their customs, and has much more in common with Rath. Not only as a fellow Sacaen, but as an isolated one as well. I almost wanted to count how many times Lyn says "Sacae" or something related to it, throughout the game, but decided against it. It's a lot.

 

I'm fully aware the game was designed for you to pair up the shipping options based on personal preference, but Rath seems most likely. And Lilina seems more like a cross between Hector and Florina than anything. 

You never answered my question by the way.

Edited by Køkø

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3 minutes ago, Slumber said:

But that's giving him a reason that'd be one thing, but the jump from "My world is destroyed" to "Humanity must be exterminated" is HUGE.

Not at all. "My world is destroyed" means that you will do absolutely anything in response to this. His father's love and affection has been his world all this time. He was rejected. And this drove him to absolute despair and made him grow to hate more and more. 

6 minutes ago, Slumber said:

FE6 portrays Zephiel as definitely dangerous and a bit unhinged, but never full-blown insane. The links from FE7 do very little to show us how the man in FE6 turned into who he is.

Actually, this more proves my point in fact. Sure, it does feel a bit lacking, but Zephiel has been praying to the gods and likely for years now, showing that being accepted has been his heart's greatest desire. But he wasn't even give that. Everything that he has lived for, everything he has done, was all just to be accepted by his father. When he wasn't given that, he felt like he was rejected by the entire world. 

And this case causes his sanity to slip more and more. You don't have to be cackling to be crazy. That's just fiction where the villain does it just cause. But his form of insanity is never smiling again, losing all joy in life.

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4 hours ago, Slumber said:

The thing that confused me was that you used one conversation that showed that Lyn felt sad for Hector over the death of Uther, a trait she shows multiple times over the course of the game, as a blanket conversation that covers ALL of her post-Uther interactions with Hector and said "I think it's pretty clear what it's implying".

I disagreed.

Despite the fact that she's clearly crying, and struggling to get what she wants to say out of her mouth, towards the end of her conversation with Eliwood?

Quote

This follow up did a much better job at showing what you were getting at, which I still don't really agree with, however.

Why?

Quote

Her life as a nomadic Sacean ends with marriage to either Eliwood and Hector.

Which doesn't mean that she would forget about said life.

Quote

You can make assumptions that maybe she did... SOMETHING in whatever castle she ties down to to keep her tied to her Sacaen heritage, but short of living in a yurt on the castle grounds, I have no idea what that would be. The only really explicit ways in which we KNOW that she embraces her heritage, which is something you really, really have to work for her to not do, is when she goes back to the plains of Sacae in the other 3 of her endings.

But at the same time, who says that she'll easily forget about the plains upon living as a Lycian noble? Certainly not I.S. And isn't making assumptions a part of speculation anyways?

Also, "you have to work really hard for Lyn to not return to Sacae"? Lolwut? Lyn's pairings with the lords are among the easiest pairs in the game to build. With Hector/Lyn being feasible in a Ranked run. And coming from someone who had no issue building Eliwood/Lyn to B on his first playthrough of FE7 despite not going for that pair, I doubt that Eliwood/Lyn would be hard to build for a casual player. Kent/Lyn and Rath/Lyn, on the other hand, are arguably harder to build than either. With Rath/Lyn in particular having a challenge in actually building supports on the grounds that Lyn would actually have built supports by the time Rath joins.

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Maybe saying it's a "Betrayal" to her character is a bit strong, but if in 4 of the 5 paths to her endings she mentions strongly longing to go back to the plains of Sacae, what sounds truer to her character? The 3 endings that do lead to her going back, the 1 ending that has her marrying into royalty despite mentioning that she wants to go back, or the 1 ending that has her marrying into royalty and not mentioning that she wants to go back?

You mean the two endings where she doesn't mention wanting to go back. She never once mentions wanting to return to Sacae when paired with Eliwood.

Quote

And in EVERY SINGLE one of Lyn's endings, Caelin folds into Ostia, because Caelin is a part of Ostia in FE6. That's just how it works. She never carries her grandfather's legacy, she either lives as Eliwood's wife and has no more ties to Caelin, she lives as Hector's wife and isn't explicitly said to have any power beyond being support for Hector(She gets the same generic ending as Hector's other partners), or goes back to the plains with Kent or Rath, or on her own.

There mere fact that it's always Ostia that gets control over Caelin doesn't really make much sense outside of one ending. Hector isn't (or at least doesn't seem to be) acquainted with Hausen. And Lundgren's dead by the time FE7 ends. And as far as we know, he doesn't have a birthright claim to Caelin. At least, he shouldn't have such a claim to Caelin that he controls it despite Eliwood's children being Caelin's heirs should Lyn marry Eliwood. And if she goes back to Sacae, why Ostia gains control over Caelin is still not touched upon. But if she marries Hector, why Ostia gains control over Caelin starts to make sense. As Ostia's heirs then would also be Caelin's heirs. Whether she is or not stated to have any explicit power beyond being support for Hector is besides the point to this.

Quote

What about Lilina? Who's to say Florina or Farina don't do the exact same thing? Florina ultimately has the same adventure Lyn has, and Farina's a globe-trotting mercenary. The many stories Lilina hears from her mother don't really equate to "Oh, that could only be Lyn" in my eyes.

The point was that Lyn wouldn't so easily forget about Sacae despite being Hector's wife. You seem so focused on the notion that she does despite there being zero indication of such.

1 hour ago, Køkø said:

Elibe's pretty racist towards Sacaens. Especially Lycia, as Araphen, Lundgren, and her ending with Eliwood imply. It doesn't seem likely someone as proud as Lyn would live in castle and deal with that shit.

It's only Lundgren and Marquess Araphen who's outright racist towards Sacaeans. Her ending with Eliwood doesn't mention that racism is the reason behind the nobles getting in an uproar during their marriage. 

1 hour ago, Køkø said:

Racism aside, Lyn states multiple times that she is uncomfortable around nobility and their customs,

Okay. But this makes Lyn/Rath likely, how? Because this isn't really proof towards anything. All it shows is that she's bad at being a noble; a trait that she shares with Hector, who becomes Marquess despite his discomfort around nobility. It's quite the double-standard to bring up Lyn's discomfort around nobility yet not bring up Hector's.

1 hour ago, Køkø said:

and has much more in common with Rath. Not only as a fellow Sacaen, but as an isolated one as well.

Except Rath isn't an orphan by FE7's end whereas Lyn is. Nor did the Kutolah experience a tragedy that reduced their numbers to less than 10. They're not like each other personality-wise either. Lyn is far more outspoken than Rath is, and more impulsive and hot-headed. All they have in common is that they're nomads from Sacae, they're children of their tribe's chieftain, and they have lived alone. If there's any one among Lyn's support options that she has the most in common with, it's the one who outright is mentioned to have reminded Lyn of herself from when she was younger. Who, to my knowledge, isn't Rath.

1 hour ago, Køkø said:

I'm fully aware the game was designed for you to pair up the shipping options based on personal preference, but Rath seems most likely.

Based on what? They get little interaction outside of supports. Whatever interaction they do get can be easily simplified. And they don't even get special scenes, a love confession, or a special song.

1 hour ago, Køkø said:

And Lilina seems more like a cross between Hector and Florina than anything.

Except for the fact that Hector/Florina is never implied to happen, nor does any reason for happening come up in the main story. Not even a special scene. Plus, Hector/Florina's harder to build than Hector/Lyn even when taking support speed into account by itself.

1 hour ago, Køkø said:

You never answered my question by the way.

I thought what I posted provided a sufficient enough answer. Also, what kind of pair friends has someone in the pair confess his or her love to the other person in the pair? There's only one kind of pair of friends that does that, and it's kind that sees each other as more than just mere friends.

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God! Why is there another Shipping War around here? It will start a flame war if Lyn X Hector, or Lyn X Rath is canon. I said this before "Then again, they might have Lyn remain single, Lyn never made an appearance in Binding Blade, so we are unsure what happened to her during the events of Binding Blade." She was an entirely new character in Blazing Sword, as her 1st Debut. Plus The argument of Zephiel being a great villain came out of nowhere. You guys are changing the subject.

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6 minutes ago, TheXGamer said:

God! Why is there another Shipping War around here? It will start a flame war if Lyn X Hector, or Lyn X Rath is canon. I said this before "Then again, they might have Lyn remain single, Lyn never made an appearance in Binding Blade, so we are unsure what happened to her during the events of Binding Blade." She was an entirely new character in Blazing Sword, as her 1st Debut. Plus The argument of Zephiel being a great villain came out of nowhere. You guys are changing the subject.

That's very common actually. When we talk about one thing, something else comes up, we share our view, someone agrees or disagrees and then it goes on like that. 

You expected a shipping war to NOT happen the moment you mentioned Lyn role? Come on, everyone would gun for that as an excuse to push their favorite ship.

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7 hours ago, Just call me AL said:

Despite the fact that she's clearly crying, and struggling to get what she wants to say out of her mouth, towards the end of her conversation with Eliwood?

I still don't see how feeling bad for Hector means she wants to marry him.  Or how that would take precedence over her inseparable bond to Sacae. 

7 hours ago, Just call me AL said:

 

Also, "you have to work really hard for Lyn to not return to Sacae"? Lolwut? Lyn's pairings with the lords are among the easiest pairs in the game to build. With Hector/Lyn being feasible in a Ranked run. And coming from someone who had no issue building Eliwood/Lyn to B on his first playthrough of FE7 despite not going for that pair, I doubt that Eliwood/Lyn would be hard to build for a casual player. Kent/Lyn and Rath/Lyn, on the other hand, are arguably harder to build than either. With Rath/Lyn in particular having a challenge in actually building supports on the grounds that Lyn would actually have built supports by the time Rath joins.

I could be wrong, but I believe he was speaking writing wise.  

7 hours ago, Just call me AL said:

 

It's only Lundgren and Marquess Araphen who's outright racist towards Sacaeans. Her ending with Eliwood doesn't mention that racism is the reason behind the nobles getting in an uproar during their marriage. 

Eliwood and Lyn

The marquess of Pherae and the princess of Caelin were wed after the conflict. All of Lycia was in an uproar, but none could sunder their bond of love. They have a son named Roy, who will become a great hero. 

 

Eliwood and Fiora

Eliwood and Fiora were wed after the conflict. A group of Lycian nobles protested that she was a mercenary, but none could sunder their bond of love. They have a son named Roy, who will become a great hero. 

Fair point about us not knowing the reason for the uproar, but I posted a possible reason why. Even more interestingly, Fiora's ending is the one that states it was a specific group of nobles that protested, and gives us the exact reason why.  

 

 

 

 

7 hours ago, Just call me AL said:

 

Okay. But this makes Lyn/Rath likely, how? Because this isn't really proof towards anything. All it shows is that she's bad at being a noble; a trait that she shares with Hector, who becomes Marquess despite his discomfort around nobility. It's quite the double-standard to bring up Lyn's discomfort around nobility yet not bring up Hector's.

Except Rath isn't an orphan by FE7's end whereas Lyn is. Nor did the Kutolah experience a tragedy that reduced their numbers to less than 10. They're not like each other personality-wise either. Lyn is far more outspoken than Rath is, and more impulsive and hot-headed. All they have in common is that they're nomads from Sacae, they're children of their tribe's chieftain, and they have lived alone. If there's any one among Lyn's support options that she has the most in common with, it's the one who outright is mentioned to have reminded Lyn of herself from when she was younger. Who, to my knowledge, isn't Rath.

 

Fair point about Hector but he has more of an obligation to stay a noble than Lyn does. Caelin is abdicated and given to Ostia in most of the endings, and Lyn grew up a commoner.

 

  • Lyn: Rath... Tell me the rest of your story, please. Why did you have to leave the tribe?
  • Rath: ...The tribe diviner saw a bad omen in the stars. As...the chieftain's son, I had to leave to prevent disaster.
  • Lyn: What disaster?
  • Rath: Can't say. ...But the diviner did tell me I would know when the time came. He said I was born into this land to stop the burning... A dark flame, consuming all.
  • Lyn: ... ...
  • Rath: At the time I was less than four, without even the means to survive. I wandered, not knowing right from left, ...The people of other tribes laughed and ridiculed me.
  • Lyn: ... ...
  • Rath: I do not feel the loneliness now as I did then... but sometimes, I remember. I have never felt so alone.
  • Lyn: I see... That makes sense. When I first met you, I felt like we had something in common... Maybe it was because we shared the experience of being alone.

This seems like a stronger commonality to bond over than sucking at being nobility. Could you tell me who Lyn says reminds her of herself when she was younger?

 

7 hours ago, Just call me AL said:

 

Based on what? They get little interaction outside of supports. Whatever interaction they do get can be easily simplified. And they don't even get special scenes, a love confession, or a special song.

 

Not sure what you mean by special scene. He does save her life in beginning and there's a CG image for it. Remember , Hector is one of the lords in the game, of course he'd have more content than a side character. 

 

 

7 hours ago, Just call me AL said:

 

Except for the fact that Hector/Florina is never implied to happen, nor does any reason for happening come up in the main story. Not even a special scene. Plus, Hector/Florina's harder to build than Hector/Lyn even when taking support speed into account by itself.

I thought what I posted provided a sufficient enough answer. 

 

Didn't say it was. Still don't know what you mean by special scene, but she has CG image just like the other females that can pair with Eliwood/Hector.  

 

It wasn't, and notifying me would have been nice. 

I don't want you to get me wrong, I don't care who Lyn is with in the canon. I was more interested in how Rath was not a likely candidate. I think I saw a post from you debating this since 2013, and you seem to favor Hector/Lyn. If we do get this remake, whatever happens regarding this, try not to have a heart attack. 

It's also worth noting that none of Hector's endings mention children. We don't know how long Hector stays with whoever you paired him up with, or if they ever sired offspring.

 

 

7 hours ago, TheXGamer said:

God! Why is there another Shipping War around here? It will start a flame war if Lyn X Hector, or Lyn X Rath is canon. I said this before "Then again, they might have Lyn remain single, Lyn never made an appearance in Binding Blade, so we are unsure what happened to her during the events of Binding Blade." She was an entirely new character in Blazing Sword, as her 1st Debut. Plus The argument of Zephiel being a great villain came out of nowhere. You guys are changing the subject.

Yes, the weapons thing was off topic, but you have to admit. You did invite the Zephiel discussion and the "shipping war".

 

 

 

Edited by Køkø

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Yeah, Binding Blade did have some of these issues. The maps were sometimes large, and while sometimes it worked(Ch.8), sometimes it became very quiet and a bit boring.

On the characters at first I didn't mind the imbalance, but you know they need to change Wendy and Sophia to not suck too much even at the beginning, making their training more painful then what it should be. Talk about Wendy, it's disappointing to see that there is no good unit with the General class. Also it's pretty obvious that Rutger is the best character in the game, and even if you train Fir a lot more, she doesn't get better than he is; and she does need a lot more training.

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I'm just going to ignore all the arguments that happened here and just say what I think should be changed for the remake...again.

I'm not going to elaborate a whole lot on what flaws FE6 has. But I will mention a couple of things that SHOULD be fixed in the remake.

  • Maps
  • Unit Balance
  • Weapon Balance
  • Promotion items

Maps: while not necessarily tweaked should have less enemies and quit that ambush crap. I just played a bit of hard mode until chapter 4 and while its practically my fault for breaking Marcus silver lance before chapter 4 even started, just looking at the huge amounts of enemies appearing there being stronger than mine and for some reason, the preparations screen still doesn't show up until like around chapter 8 just made me reset the game and delete all my progress of hard mode and rage quit and do something else. 

Map layouts can't be changed for good reasons but reduce the amount of enemies showing up so that the maps can be less of a drag and more of a fun approach.

Unit Balance: Look....fe6 has a bunch of shit units alright. They may be serviceable in few areas but they aren't going to be useful throughout the entire game. The only units whom I can justify and that I'm satisfied with their reliability are Marcus, Rutger, Dieck, Alance, Niime, Percival and any staff bot..oh and I guess Milady counts too. 

So the only way to make them usable in the remake is to increase their growth rates and that alone fixes a lot of their main problems earlier. Ward having a 45% spd growth is sufficient that he won't get doubled even early on. Or, buff their bases. Like seriously..who thought of putting Sophia at chapter 14 with those base stats?

Weapon Balance: Again, after just playin HM in four chapters, I can be one of those people and say that sword users are the most powerful because they have chances to hit more frequently. This I think shouldn't be too much of a problem to fix right?

Promotion items: Instead of having different items for a promotion, how about having one item to promote just about any unit?

 

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15 hours ago, Køkø said:

Yes, the weapons thing was off topic, but you have to admit. You did invite the Zephiel discussion and the "shipping war".

Yeah, I do admit that I did bring up Zephiel's villain status, and Lyn's relationship, About Zephiel, I thought he was an amazing villain, his past is tragic, King Desmond wanted Zephiel assassinated, because he was jealous, so his 1st attempt is to have the Black Fang kill him, Nino and Jaffar was sent to kill him, however if Nino killed Zephiel, then Jaffar had to kill Nino as a scapegoat, that didn't work, because the Lycian Army came and forced the Black Fang to retreat, King Desmond's 2nd attempt is to poison Zephiel, but survived it, Zephiel was enraged about his father wanting him killed, so he and his bodyguard Murdoch set up a false funeral, Desmond looked in the coffin to confirm that Zephiel was dead, but it turns out Zephiel was alive, and killed his father out of rage, therefore, he despised all of humanity, so he made a deal with Jahn to work together to destroy all of humanity and have Dragons rule over the world, and he played the Villain Role very well, but also about the Shipping War, in some of the spinoffs of Fire Emblem, Lyn kept mentioning Mark in her supports with Robin, and the Tactician in Heroes, and nothing was mentioned about Lyn in Binding Blade, and Lilina's mother, was never mentioned in the main story, or in support conversations, so it is unknown what happened to Lyn, I know the spinoffs are not part of the Fire Emblem Canon.

15 hours ago, Garlyle said:

Yeah, Binding Blade did have some of these issues. The maps were sometimes large, and while sometimes it worked(Ch.8), sometimes it became very quiet and a bit boring.

On the characters at first I didn't mind the imbalance, but you know they need to change Wendy and Sophia to not suck too much even at the beginning, making their training more painful then what it should be. Talk about Wendy, it's disappointing to see that there is no good unit with the General class. Also it's pretty obvious that Rutger is the best character in the game, and even if you train Fir a lot more, she doesn't get better than he is; and she does need a lot more training.

Of course the units were pretty imbalanced, yeah Wendy/Gwendolyn was a disappointment as a General, and Sophia was just not very good as a Druid, and Cath sucks all around, and also the reason why Rutger is one of the best units in the game, is because of having supports with Clarine and Dieck, and Clarine is a Dodge Tank, and a speedster, if you train Rutger to be a monster, then he will be a boss killer, and considering Clarine is a great unit, you should probably know that she'll get a late promotion, unless you Arena Grind with other units, and have her heal them until she reaches level 20, and have Chad or Astolfo get the 1st Guiding Ring, in Chapter 8, before Cath, or the 2nd Thief gets it, and Fir is not very good without supports, and she does need more training.

8 hours ago, Harvey said:

I'm just going to ignore all the arguments that happened here and just say what I think should be changed for the remake...again.

I'm not going to elaborate a whole lot on what flaws FE6 has. But I will mention a couple of things that SHOULD be fixed in the remake.

  • Maps
  • Unit Balance
  • Weapon Balance
  • Promotion items

Maps: while not necessarily tweaked should have less enemies and quit that ambush crap. I just played a bit of hard mode until chapter 4 and while its practically my fault for breaking Marcus silver lance before chapter 4 even started, just looking at the huge amounts of enemies appearing there being stronger than mine and for some reason, the preparations screen still doesn't show up until like around chapter 8 just made me reset the game and delete all my progress of hard mode and rage quit and do something else. 

Map layouts can't be changed for good reasons but reduce the amount of enemies showing up so that the maps can be less of a drag and more of a fun approach.

Unit Balance: Look....fe6 has a bunch of shit units alright. They may be serviceable in few areas but they aren't going to be useful throughout the entire game. The only units whom I can justify and that I'm satisfied with their reliability are Marcus, Rutger, Dieck, Alance, Niime, Percival and any staff bot..oh and I guess Milady counts too. 

So the only way to make them usable in the remake is to increase their growth rates and that alone fixes a lot of their main problems earlier. Ward having a 45% spd growth is sufficient that he won't get doubled even early on. Or, buff their bases. Like seriously..who thought of putting Sophia at chapter 14 with those base stats?

Weapon Balance: Again, after just playin HM in four chapters, I can be one of those people and say that sword users are the most powerful because they have chances to hit more frequently. This I think shouldn't be too much of a problem to fix right?

Promotion items: Instead of having different items for a promotion, how about having one item to promote just about any unit?

 

Yeah the whole ambush shit was not cool, also Hard Mode can only be unlocked if you complete the main story, it is late game you'll have to worry about when Hard Mode drags on, oh and the Sword Units were broken, I would have to agree, but the Anima Magic users are also broken, considering some of the enemies had low resistance, yeah since Promotion Items became a huge problem from the 1st game to the 8th game, (With the Exception of the Jugdral games, those being Genealogy of the Holy War, and Tharcia 776.) they removed it from Path of Radiance and onwards, and replaced it with all Master Seals, but the only promotion source for Echoes: Shadows of Valentia, are the Mila Shrines, so continuing with the Master Seal thing is a better idea than using different promotion items.

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On 1/12/2018 at 8:16 AM, TheXGamer said:

But there were great units such as Lilina, Milady, Clarine, Percival, Raigh, Rutger, Dieck, it would be good to fix some of the bad characters' stats and the Child Units, by adding Blazing Sword in the Remake, putting in the Parent System, making Roy's growth rates better, Lilina easier to train, Wolt a better unit, etc. 

Weapon Forging.

Weapon Forging is an iconic addition to Fire Emblem, it 1st appeared in Path of Radiance, then continued on in the later games, so it would be nice to have Weapon Forging, those who don't know about Weapon Forging, it is a thing where you upgrade weapons, having their strength, critical rate, and accuracy increased, if Intelligent Systems can, they can decrease some weapon weight, so that units with low constitution, and speed can wield heavier weapons, plus the Divine Weapons were breakable in Binding Blade, which was a load of bullshit, but if they make them unbreakable it will be better.

That's all I have right now, what are your thoughts? If they manage to remake Binding Blade, then it would be known as Fire Emblem Echoes: Legends of Elibe, or something like that.

A couple of thoughts. Stuff I have removed I either agree with or have no interest in discussing atm.

Lilina- what you said is contradictory, imo. If she was easy to train, then she would be a great unit. But she's not, so she's out of place when you list great units like Milady and Percival. She has too many stat problems and competition to be on the same level as the others you listed as great. I know it's slightly OT, but she's a glass cannon at best, with many bulk and speed problems.

Weapon Forging- iconic when? It's a nice feature, but I wouldn't call it iconic. When I think of FE gameplay, weapon forging isn't the first thing that comes to mind. I know this is nit picky, but my petty personality can't help it.

On 1/12/2018 at 4:58 PM, Slumber said:

I'm struggling to think of many beyond Ninian and Eliwood, and even that one's still not technically canon.

Alm and Celica have a total of two scenes together that aren't a flashback before the end of the game. Gray and Claire get maybe one or two scenes that aren't supports together. Sigurd and Deirdre have about 4 lines of dialogue together before they get married, which up to that point, isn't much more than what Sigurd gets with Edain. Mareeta gets arguably more screentime than Nanna in FE5, yet, Leif marries Nanna. Bartre and Karla get a single scene together. Calill and Largo get NO scenes together as far as I recall. Micaiah and Sothe might be the one case where there's really substantial time between canon love interests.

I believe they get Largo's recruitment scene, where Calill vouches for his strength and it's revealed they've dated before. And that's it? They don't really have any other scenes until RD. Even then, it's few.

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19 minutes ago, Dandy Druid said:

I believe they get Largo's recruitment scene, where Calill vouches for his strength and it's revealed they've dated before. And that's it? They don't really have any other scenes until RD. Even then, it's few.

PoR's shortage of Supports (not as bad as SoV, but still a problem) is to blame. To compensate in the gameplay bonuses department, IS invented Bond Supports to get close individuals out of the way- but from a characterization perspective, this hurt. Maybe not so badly IkexMist or the Three Brothers (MORE! is always better though), but CalillxLargo and ElinciaxLucia and MuarimxTormod were to name some.

19 minutes ago, Dandy Druid said:

Weapon Forging- iconic when? It's a nice feature, but I wouldn't call it iconic. When I think of FE gameplay, weapon forging isn't the first thing that comes to mind. I know this is nit picky, but my petty personality can't help it.

Agreed. PoR and RD have a very basic system. SD and NM made it a little cooler (and more broken thanks to effective forges) thanks to being able to forge almost anything. Awakening culled the extremes of the DS version. Fates added a slight tedium to the system via resources and needing to expend extra weapon copies (which effectively kills effective forges since two Beast Killers is better than one on CQ). SoV, well the system is blind in showing you what you get from forging, but otherwise the best so far. Unless you count Heroes possibly. Forging is a frill to FE I'd say.

On 1/12/2018 at 7:58 PM, Slumber said:

Micaiah and Sothe might be the one case where there's really substantial time between canon love interests.

A little ironic given the discussion that has been had on how the Micaiah and Sothe relationship isn't openly romantic enough in spite of all that time together. Too many brother-sister/mother-child vibes and not enough sexual partner ones for a number of fans.

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6 hours ago, TheXGamer said:

Yeah the whole ambush shit was not cool, also Hard Mode can only be unlocked if you complete the main story, it is late game you'll have to worry about when Hard Mode drags on, oh and the Sword Units were broken, I would have to agree, but the Anima Magic users are also broken, considering some of the enemies had low resistance, yeah since Promotion Items became a huge problem from the 1st game to the 8th game, (With the Exception of the Jugdral games, those being Genealogy of the Holy War, and Tharcia 776.) they removed it from Path of Radiance and onwards, and replaced it with all Master Seals, but the only promotion source for Echoes: Shadows of Valentia, are the Mila Shrines, so continuing with the Master Seal thing is a better idea than using different promotion items.

I honestly don't mind ambush as I get the idea of it. Its just that in this game it is unneeded majority of the times.

 

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Binding Blade is my favorite Fire Emblem game, so I would definitely appreciate a remake for it.

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