IVs and Alternative Builds

[NekoKnight]

The existence of IVs is a mixed blessing. Some units become monsters with the right IVs or severely hindered with the wrong ones. I've heard it said that the developers intentions (allegedly) were that IVs were to encourage different builds. In the early days of the game, this didn't seem that true in practice. -Spd Hana is not going to be repurposed into anything but an aggressive player phase unit. But things are perhaps changing for a wider group of units thanks to the weapon refinery and seals. With the right weapon refinery, A slot and Seal, a single stat can be manipulated 8-12 points (using standard sword/lance/axe refinements as an example) which combined with variable natures can create viable builds never before possible.

Nowi and Effie are both units who have proven to have interesting build options because of weapon refinery and seals. Nowi can get to a 39 speed (impressive for a unit that was almost exclusively enemy phase oriented before) and Effie can turn into a formidable mage tank with Berkut's Lance (Res), DC and DD seal (before Brave Lance was the undisputed strongest build).

Again, some units will never function well outside of a particular build, but what units do you find flexible enough to alter their builds depending on their IVs?

Edited January 13, 2018 by NekoKnight

[Anacybele]

Well, I know this is due to bias, but I've found two very viable builds for Frederick. His best IVs are +Atk or +Def and -Res. +Atk Frederick should run the Brave Axe+/Death Blow 3/breaker/Bonfire build to make the most use of that extra attack. This build is for player phase and ought to be run with allies who buff attack.

If you go +Def Freddy like mine is, I decided to change that build into Def refined Slaying Axe+, Ignis, Steady Stance 3, and Quick Reposte 2/3. This second build costs more feathers and requires sacrificing a BK, but is so effective lol. Though my Freddy also has a summoner support and a few merges, plus the Def+3 seal. His Def before buffs is a whopping 50! Which makes Ignis 40 extra damage. This build is defensive and for enemy phase, and should be run with allies who buff Def and/or attack.

C skill for either of these should be a cav buffing skill and/or another skill that boosts attack, speed, or Def.

Edited January 13, 2018 by Anacybele

[Xenomata]

I think an interesting unit, in that regard, is actually Nephenee.

For instance, her Speed is off the charts. My +Spd Fury3 Slaying Lance+Spd with 1 merge is at 45 Speed, which is pretty impressive, but her Defense is very good as well, and I imagine that if she had to run a +Def nature, she could be just as bulky as Lukas and run a terrifying Bonfire. Her Res is decent as well, so a +Res Nephenee could take hits from Tikis, and possibly even run Distant Counter to take out Red Mages, and god forbid Blue Mages as well.

Her Attack doesn't really allow for a Brave Lance build, but it is completely possible to run her offensively thanks to Wrath 3, or defensively, especially since she starts with such a wonderful lance as Slaying Lance+.

(Full clarification, I do believe that there are units who run bulk better than Nephenee, but she is a 5* exclusive, and not everyone can afford to be picky)

Edited January 13, 2018 by Xenomata

[Nébulya]

Fae is one of the unit that can change a lot of build. +atk, +spd, especially +def has she has a +4 points as a buff. (and with a +10 fae (even if I know I'll take my 2 years) she is very good, with the summoner support too) and - hp every time has she'll need others stats. 

But sadly, I would love a way to change ivs, everyone knows the hype when having a 5 stats character then.. Wrong iv. I've got Zelgius, Micaiah and one Ryoma in 2 pulls only (for one time, I'm lucky) then worst ivs (all 3 - atk! Like.. Really ?) 

[SoulWeaver]

Not majorly contributing here, but is it weird that I've never had difficulty with IVs? They've never really affected my gameplay enough for me to go 'dang, if only my Sakura wasn't -ATK, then I could have got a kill' or something to the same effect. This applies in Arena, Voting Gauntlets, Tempest Trials, etc….pretty much anywhere I keep hearing people complain about crappy IVs.

[Xenomata]

14 minutes ago, SoulWeaver said:

Not majorly contributing here, but is it weird that I've never had difficulty with IVs? They've never really affected my gameplay enough for me to go 'dang, if only my Sakura wasn't -ATK, then I could have got a kill' or something to the same effect. This applies in Arena, Voting Gauntlets, Tempest Trials, etc….pretty much anywhere I keep hearing people complain about crappy IVs.

There have been times for me where I know if I didn't have a -Spd nature, or if I had a +Atk nature, I could have secured a kill, or if I didn't have -Def then I could have survived the attack, and in fact I can tell you that the performance of my Reinhardt changed drastically since he went from neutral Atk to +Atk, but really IV's only go so far. Hones, Fortifies, Spurs, Drives, Goads, Wards, and now Tactics are usually what spell out the matchups more than natures IMO... natures just smooth the ground for matchups to bounce around on.

Edited January 13, 2018 by Xenomata

[Ledrert]

Got a -Atk +Res Nephenee, I turn her in a great mixed tank :

Spoiler

For now, that's a great start. And I helped my friend who got a +Spd Faye. Now she have 33 Spd with Swift Sparrow and a Guard Bow. A really cool build.

[Zapp Branniglenn]

Units have natures to encourage spending more orbs when you get a poor one. They knew the community would figure out how stats work, or at least compare their units and get super jealous at the Spd and Atk boons. If this system were meant to encourage alternate builds then they've done a poor job of it by making all stats out to be equal. Like with pokemon, your optimal nature nine times out of ten is always increasing your prevalent attacking stat or speed stat. If they wanted boons to be equal, they would have made attack boons +2, Defense and Res +4, and HP +5 like with the weapon forge upgrades.

[SoulWeaver]

8 minutes ago, Xenomata said:

There have been times for me where I know if I didn't have a -Spd nature, or if I had a +Atk nature, I could have secured a kill, or if I didn't have -Def then I could have survived the attack, and in fact I can tell you that the performance of my Reinhardt changed drastically since he went from neutral Atk to +Atk, but really IV's only go so far. Hones, Fortifies, Spurs, Drives, Goads, Wards, and now Tactics are usually what spell out the matchups more than natures IMO... natures just smooth the ground for matchups to bounce around on.

Ok, cool, glad to know I'm not crazy, thanks for the help!

[Ice Dragon]

Natures. My thanks to people who call them what they are.

 

Some characters benefit from having a variety of viable natures and some don't. That's how it is in Pokémon, and that's how it is in Heroes. I don't think any of the developers or designers involved in this decision had any illusion that every nature would be optimal in some way.

At the same time, I think the player base puts too much emphasis on having the "correct" nature when others are viable to build. People forget that when they have limited access to acquiring new units that every unit is the set of stats that it has and should be treated as such. A -Atk Bride Cordelia is an infantry bow user with 32/35 offenses, not an infantry bow user that could have had 35/35, but doesn't. And that still makes her better than neutral Jeorge, Takumi, Klein, and Clarisse (all of whom are restricted to 4-star rarity or higher or have no access to non-neutral natures).

[Alexmender]

This varies a lot depending on the unit. A min maxed unit is going to want a boon in their strongest stat while having a bane in their weakest, if the reverse happens they're going to be severely handicapped because they were made with only 1 role in mind and their stats are so lopsided that the boon isn't going to improve their performance in roles they weren't meant to do (biggest example I can think of is Hana who went all out in offense and will suffer with things like -Atk/-Spd no matter what) .

The opposite happens with units that have average/above average stats in every field (sans res in most cases), in that case the units can use their respective natures to focus on sweeping, tanking, supporting or whatever you need them to do, the biggest example I can think of a unit with said qualities is Sigurd who can benefit from almost every boon while not suffering a harsh penalty from different banes (except for -Atk but that one is a big downer on every unit due to how this game works but at least it's salvageable in Sigurd's case).

[Ice Dragon]

1 hour ago, Alexmender said:

(biggest example I can think of is Hana who went all out in offense and will suffer with things like -Atk/-Spd no matter what) .

-Atk Hana is pretty much identical to Lloyd, and -Spd Hana is pretty much identical to neutral Ogma. While it's certainly not optimal, it's also hardly "severely handicapped".

[Usana]

21 minutes ago, SoulWeaver said:

Not majorly contributing here, but is it weird that I've never had difficulty with IVs? They've never really affected my gameplay enough for me to go 'dang, if only my Sakura wasn't -ATK, then I could have got a kill' or something to the same effect. This applies in Arena, Voting Gauntlets, Tempest Trials, etc….pretty much anywhere I keep hearing people complain about crappy IVs.

Well if it doesn't make difference for you how about we trade seasonal daggers or something? I have been cursed with -ATK seasonal daggers. 34 ATK when equipped is just beyond sad. Since I don't care for Dance shenanigans much my PA Olivia is close to useless outside of training up other units. I really liked her art/sprite too. 34HP/34ATK/34SPD. . . those are her highest stats when fully equipped. Kinda wish the Dance skill was what imposed the dancer stat penalty(so equipping dance would drop stats by 3 each like a reverse fury or some such) because then she would be much more usable. As it is her only hope of hurting anything is to double distant defense stack and try and iceberg bomb something, at least her boon is somewhat useful in patching up her RES. That is about all I can think of anyways. With her atk and res as it stands she fails to counter kill Rein which an attack neutral one can do.

Anyways while there are plenty of units who don't care much what IV's they have, some units really can't afford to have attack shaved off. Some, like all three from the current banner, can afford to eat an attack bane without too much trouble, even if it wouldn't be ideal. Micaiah would probably suffer the most? Actually I think Sothe and Zelgius would much rather eat an attack bane than a speed bane, yes?  Basically the way I see it is this. Anything above 30 base attack after the bane is counted in has usable attack(though some low might weapons like Poison Dagger/Kitty Paddle may disagree). Even if you aren't making use of your boon(say it brought res from 13->16 or something) that isn't terrible, though definitely disappointing. For example my ATK bane Charlotte is fine. She trades 3 Attack for 4 defense. With final equipped stats of 56HP/47ATK/32SPD/32DEF/19RES she can run a pretty solid physical tank build. And while 47 attack may not be the greatest attack in the universe, it can still be used to kill things. Yeah, playing with her 39 attack boon would have been fun, but this works perfectly well. Unlike 34HP/34ATK/34SPD/16DEF/31RES. That wouldn't be bad before skills, but after skills?

Okay, I need to stop crying about my PA!Olivia. So TL;DR, if you have more than 30 ATK after your bane you can make it work and SPD banes can easily be worse than ATK Banes if your base spd falls into a particular range. Beyond that many units don't care as much as it sometimes gets made out to be. That said it can suck to get a bane that goes against the reason you wanted that unit. That is why it is a good idea to avoid coming up with build ideas until you actually have the unit in hand. If you were looking forward to that quad build but get a SPD bane , boy will you be disappointed.

[thecrimsonflash]

1 hour ago, Usana said:

(snip)

IMO if your spd drops below 32 it is unsalvageable. I got a -spd +hp zelgius and I can't figure out how to make him viable, Micaiah, I think doesnt care at all about natures as long as she isn't -atk, her +spd is still bad, her hp is up in the air, depending on what you want to do with sacrifice, she probably wants +atk or + res above all else. 

though I got a - spd delthia, and I was able to make her pretty good all things considered, basing her around buffing and getting rid of sword users. I guess it depends on what you want to do with a unit, maybe I could run zelgius with a boost skill.

[Ice Dragon]

36 minutes ago, thecrimsonflash said:

IMO if your spd drops below 32 it is unsalvageable.

Brave weapons exist for non-dagger melee units, and Litrblade exists for tome units, neither of which need a Spd stat to use. You can also run an effective weapon to simply one-hit kill specific enemies in Arena Assault. Units with higher defenses have Quick Riposte to make their Spd stat irrelevant, as well, and Arena Assault builds can use Weaponbreakers for counter-picking.

There are ways to salvage just about any stat distribution in the game simply because Arena Assault exists.

[Usana]

@thecrimsonflash Yeah units in the 32-35 speed category REALLY don't want to eat a SPD bane. Though I would think Zelgius could manage an Enemy Phase build. QR kinda lessen's the impact of speed, particularly for bulky fella's. Now if only inheritance for EP builds would become easier. The best EP skills are kinda hard to have plenty of fodder for.

[Astellius]

Catria has been in my group for a long time, but I really had a hard time figuring what I wanted to do with her. But, with the introduction of the Refinery, I decided to turn her into a flying tank. She has a +Def/-HP nature, so 32 Def was the starting value. Add 4 Def from refinement, throw the Def+3 seal on her, and now she has 39 Def prior to any A-passive. She's quite an effective flying blue tank now.

A +Spd or Atk Catria would be better suited towards more offensive builds, so her nature can have a large influence over how one might want to build her. She has relatively balanced stats with a decent distribution, so a few points towards Atk, Spd, or Def can make the difference between whether she would fill a certain role well or not.

I'd say that Adult Tiki also has several possibilities based on the nature as well. A +Def nature can let you build an extremely good physical tank, while a +Res nature can let her become a strong magic tank. With a Res refinement and DD3 in the A-passive and SS slots, Tiki can achieve a pretty large magic soak, capable of tanking Reinhardt in some cases. I remember having a deathless run ruined once because I just assumed my Reinhardt could kill the enemy Tiki, so I left Cecilia in Tiki's range. I then went to have Reinhardt kill Tiki, but saw that Tiki would survive and kill Reinhardt. It was pretty funny.

[Xenomata]

@thecrimsonflash @Ice Dragon I've had the... great great honor of the one and only ToD!Nowi I could pull be of the +Def -Spd, and yeah 29 speed is bad. Fury 3 and Speed +3 brings her only so far, and without Flier Emblem I imagine she will never get faster than 41 speed.

...which I believe is why Desperate Assault, Desperation 3 and Brash Assault 3, exists. Literally any unit can run the combo well, Braves especially, and usually I'd reserve to run it on my Bridelia (who is +Atk -Spd and only hits 35 base Speed with LnD3 and Summoner Support), but it's one way to get around the -Spd nature you'd never want on a 5* exclusive, let alone a seasonal unit.

...though I was also given the suggestion of giving her Swordbreaker 3 and letting her take out/tank Swords, who are usually the ones who have 40+ speed beyond Specialty Emblems...

[SoulWeaver]

4 hours ago, Usana said:

Well if it doesn't make difference for you how about we trade seasonal daggers or something? I have been cursed with -ATK seasonal daggers. 34 ATK when equipped is just beyond sad. Since I don't care for Dance shenanigans much my PA Olivia is close to useless outside of training up other units. I really liked her art/sprite too. 34HP/34ATK/34SPD. . . those are her highest stats when fully equipped. Kinda wish the Dance skill was what imposed the dancer stat penalty(so equipping dance would drop stats by 3 each like a reverse fury or some such) because then she would be much more usable. As it is her only hope of hurting anything is to double distant defense stack and try and iceberg bomb something, at least her boon is somewhat useful in patching up her RES. That is about all I can think of anyways. With her atk and res as it stands she fails to counter kill Rein which an attack neutral one can do.

Sure, I'm game. I'll add you to the list of people to contact if they ever introduce Unit Trading, though I haven't checked IVs on any of my non-regular-Sakura/Roy Units except for one Catria who turned out to be Neutral, so yeah…it's possible you may end up worse off. For real, though, if Unit Trading becomes a thing hit me up, I have two NekoSakura and one Dagger Olivia I can swap for copies of the same Unit if someone has a bad nature because I don't give a crap.

[saisymbolic]

A lot of units can work with any nature. Which is good for me as I favor units that can be mixed "tanks" of sorts. That being said, I think for some units the change is only really noticeable until after you +10 them. A few units that I've been working with and/or planning:

Lissa works well with a +DEF boon as I've learned. Planning to slap Close Counter, Savage Blow and Fear+ on her for pseudo tank and saboteur shenanigans.  

Flora is another that can work with a +DEF boon. Another project for a flying magic tank that can take a few physical hits. Gonna give her DC, Guard and Guidance.

Also, echoing +RES Tiki (A). She can take some magic attacks I thought would kill her, to be honest, and it is satisfying to see.

[Crux404]

This "ideal nature" debate also is dependent on the untis you face in the arena. Hector +ATK -SPD used to be claimed as ideal at first because every defensive unit team would either outspeed him or have a brave weapon. But the dragon unis that are now meta (Nowi, Fae and Y!Tiki) are slowish, reaching around 30 SPD (plus merges), making a SPD +/ SPD neutral Hector not get doubled with buffs,; which saves him in some situations

2 hours ago, thecrimsonflash said:

 

though I got a - spd delthia, and I was able to make her pretty good all things considered, basing her around buffing and getting rid of sword users. I guess it depends on what you want to do with a unit, maybe I could run zelgius with a boost skill.

 

6 hours ago, Ice Dragon said:

At the same time, I think the player base puts too much emphasis on having the "correct" nature when others are viable to build.

The recent banner is a prime example of that. Any Micaiah is a RES tank with lots of attack that can run ploy (and can Sacrifice + Desperation +BA allows as an offensive option with an effective weapon). Zelguius has the same DEF as BK with a DEF bane, so vanilla BK (SB + QR) build on him can tank just as much even (SPD bane might screw him over in some builds, but you can just avoid those). Sothe can be a sweep support (SPD- might demand a partner with hone/supr/drive/whatever, but he can still reach 44 eff. SPD) or use LAD + Desperation (his 39/36 offensives are very respectable).

As far as offesive go, it is more important to have a team composed of units that check common threats in the tiers that you are (ex: Rein + B!Lyn in lower scores and /Armor/DragonsFiresweep in higher eschalons). And for defensive teams, you just want to overwhelm the adversary with cheese so he surrenders.

[NekoKnight]

7 hours ago, Usana said:

Okay, I need to stop crying about my PA!Olivia.

I feel you. My Polivia is -Atk too. She can't damage anything unless she procs Glacies and as a colorless, she isn't good at tanking either. I'd rather have any other dancer.

[Ae†her]

IMO Sigurd has the most options for Nature that make him good at certain things.

+Def turns him into a 0-damage type of tank, pretty much like Xander.

+Atk turns him into a heavy hitter with decent speed.

+Spd on a horse emblem team turns him into a very speedy unit in certain scenarios also lets him avoid a lot of doubles in general.

+Res helps him tank mages a little better, and can work with DC builds.

-HP well -HP is the worst, but more protection against the Weapon Triangle I guess.