henry Henry: Twisted Mind

[BANRYU]

Henry: Twisted Mind

Joining the trifecta as the Red member of the of peculiarly-built, typically-not-effective mages that includes Odin and Merric, Henry brings to the table the highest combination of HP and Def sported by any ranged infantry (and tied with Winter Tharja for those stats among all ranged units), trading for them the Spd, Res, and least fortunately Atk, the stats widely considered to be essential for mages. Henry is not without his uses though, and he has several things going for him in his default kit; Raudrraven, Ignis, and G Tomebreaker are all useful skills that only need Triangle Adept added to the mix for Henry to be an effective green mage-killer, making him a cost-effective budget option, and his stellar HP stat lets him abuse skills typically unseen on most mages, such as Panic Ploy and Infantry Pulse. Though he might lack a decent Attack stat like Boey has, he's just as capable of running effective close-counter sets as well as anti-grey builds with his native weapon. Despite his uses as a budget Raven user, he does need quite a lot of investment to live up to his full potential, as these strangely-statted units often do, but once he's there he has the capability of being delightfully adequate. Fortunately, two of the rarest skills required for his success (Raudrowl+ and Close Counter) have since become F2P-available, making him easier to build than ever. 

Level 40 stats:
HP: 42 / 45 / 48
Atk: 20 / 23 / 26
Spd: 19 / 22 / 25
Def: 29 / 32 / 35
Res: 22 / 25 / 29
Total: 156~157

Default skills:
Weapon: Raudrraven+
Assist: --
Special: Ignis
Passive A: Defiant Defense 3
Passive B: G Tomebreaker 3
Passive C: --

---

Giving a Hoot (Close Counter)
*Optimal Build* *High Investment* General Use, Arena Offense, Chain modes

Spoiler

Suggested IV: +Atk/-Spd*, +Res/-Spd, +(any)/-Spd (Note: 

• +Atk*: 49 HP | 37 Atk | 19 Spd | 35 Def | 25 Res
• +Res: 49 HP | 34 Atk | 19 Spd | 35 Def | 28 Res
• +Def: 49 HP | 34 Atk | 19 Spd | 38 Def | 25 Res
• +HP: 52 HP | 34 Atk | 19 Spd | 35 Def | 25 Res

Weapon: Raudrowl+ [Def]
Assist: Swap / Reposition
Special: Bonfire / Ignis
Passive A: Close Counter / AtkDef Bond 3
Passive B: Guard 3* / Quick Riposte 2-3 / Dull Ranged 3
Passive C: Panic Ploy 3* / Infantry Pulse 3 / Atk Smoke 3 / flexible
Sacred Seal: Quick Riposte 3* / Close Defense 3 / Distant Defense 3

With the best physical bulk of all infantry mages, 45 HP / 32 Def at neutral bases, probably nothing is better suited to best boy Henry than the simple and straightforward Close Counter build. Guard, Quick Riposte (seal), and Panic Ploy are the killer combination that Henry can use to make sure he stays alive and his opponents don't, with Guard + Quick Riposte ensuring that faster foes (read: most) aren't able to charge their specials on him while he does exactly that; when being doubled, Henry can fire off Bonfire on his second attack to typically ensure a KO (though some players may prefer to run Ignis so that he can nuke things even harder every other round or so). Cockblocking specials with Guard while preparing one to fire off via QR is the bread and butter of any slow tanky unit, and Henry is no exception, though he has other potential options as well.

In lieu of Guard, Henry can run Quick Riposte in his B-slot and Close/Distant Defense as his sacred seal, giving him better tankability for regular attacks at the cost of a weakness to specials. Likewise, Guard can also be replaced by Dull Ranged to thwart Blade-boosting mages, though Panic Ploy is another means to do so which allows him to still block specials with Guard; if Henry is used to run Infantry Pulse instead, then Dull Ranged is more of a viable option. 

All things considered, the first option listed for any given skill offers the best performance for Henry overall, with Infantry Pulse and Ignis being the most noteworthy alternate options, along with AtkDef Bond, which greatly limits his ability to deal with opponents at melee range, but synergizes amazingly well with his weapon's effect. 

Caws for Alarm (Budget/Raudrraven)
General Use, Arena Offense, Chain modes

Spoiler

Suggested IV: +Atk/-Spd*, +(any)/-Spd

• +Atk*: 47 HP | 38 Atk | 19 Spd | 32 Def | 25 Res
• +HP: 50 HP | 35 Atk | 19 Spd | 32 Def | 25 Res
• +Def: 47 HP | 35 Atk | 19 Spd | 35 Def | 25 Res
• +Res: 47 HP | 35 Atk | 19 Spd | 32 Def | 28 Res

Weapon: Raudrraven+
Assist: Swap / Reposition
Special: Ignis
Passive A: Triangle Adept 3 / AtkDef Bond 3*
Passive B: Quick Riposte 2-3 / Bowbreaker 3 / Axebreaker 3
Passive C: Atk Smoke 3 / Panic Ploy 3 / Infantry Pulse 3 / flexible
Sacred Seal: Distant Defense 3 / Panic Ploy 3

Outside of expensive skills, Henry's main use is as a cheap and common Raudrraven user with a focus on tanking physical weapons like bows, daggers, and axes. Once again Quick Riposte is the primary go-to skill of choice here, allowing Henry to double all of his ranged quarry on defense, while specific Breaker skills can be utilized to more easily beat specific foes. Also worth a mention is Guard, which while not affording him many kills either on attack OR defense, ensures that his targets are unable to muscle past his defenses or overcome his Triangle Adept-borne defenses, a skill more for players who are fine with the long game and wearing their opponents down over time. In terms of Sacred Seals and support options, most remain the same-- utilizing his HP for Panic Ploy is a solid way of contending with Blade mages or themed teams that utilize Hones and Fortifies, Threaten Atk enhances his tankiness when it procs, and Quickened Pulse makes it easier for HIM to land kills with Ignis. And finally, though it's not exactly budget, Atk/Def Bond is a substantial and effective way to boost his offense in addition to his tankiness, at the cost of being a rare and limited skill. 

 

 

Edited July 22, 2018 by BANRYU

[BANRYU]

Okay, all set here. 

There's also the possibility of a chipper build with like Fortress Def, Poison Strike, and stacked Savage Blows, but having used that myself I feel pretty confident in saying it's actually quite bad :0 so I think we can safely give it a miss. 

[Ice Dragon]

15 hours ago, BANRYU said:

Hands-down the best weapon that regular Henry can utilize is the rare and festive Candelabra, exactly the sort of silly implement that Henry would be delighted to find creative ways to kill people with-- and he does. Sporting probably the best physical bulk of all mages of 45 HP / 32 Def at neutral bases, probably nothing is better suited to him than a simple and straightforward Close Counter build, which combined with Quick Riposte and Candelabra's passive boosts makes him a stalwart physical tank and surprisingly potent killer on defense.

Ironically, Henry ties for first place among ranged units in terms of physical bulk... with Winter Tharja, who has 43 HP and 34 Def.

 

For the Pie Romancer build, I suggest adding Raudhrowl+ [Def] as a cheaper alternative to Candelabra+ [Def]. After refinement, Raudhrowl+ [Def] is only -1 Atk relative to Candelabra+ [Def] (excluding their effects), and 2 stacks of Raudhrowl+ [Def] actually puts Henry at +1/2/2/2 compared to Candelabra+ [Def] on enemy phase.

For the Murdermonger build, I suggest also adding Atk/Def Bond 3. It's literally a straight upgrade from Fortress Def 3.

 

It's kind of a shame that the only character in the game with a weapon that gives a significant in-combat buff to Atk is Sanaki, who is also a red mage. Inb4 "You can stack 3 Lilith Floaties for the same Atk buff."

[BANRYU]

7 hours ago, Ice Dragon said:

Ironically, Henry ties for first place among ranged units in terms of physical bulk... with Winter Tharja, who has 43 HP and 34 Def.

 

For the Pie Romancer build, I suggest adding Raudhrowl+ [Def] as a cheaper alternative to Candelabra+ [Def]. After refinement, Raudhrowl+ [Def] is only -1 Atk relative to Candelabra+ [Def] (excluding their effects), and 2 stacks of Raudhrowl+ [Def] actually puts Henry at +1/2/2/2 compared to Candelabra+ [Def] on enemy phase.

For the Murdermonger build, I suggest also adding Atk/Def Bond 3. It's literally a straight upgrade from Fortress Def 3.

 

It's kind of a shame that the only character in the game with a weapon that gives a significant in-combat buff to Atk is Sanaki, who is also a red mage. Inb4 "You can stack 3 Lilith Floaties for the same Atk buff."

Ah, I should specify Infantry mages then, lol. Yeah Henry is definitely not better than Tharja unless you can't get Armor March, in which case his sole niche over her is being able to move 2 spaces to escape things he doesn't want to fight lol. 

Good call on Raudrowl, that sounds much better than Raven. Will add.

AtkDef Bond I'm less sold on since it's quite clearly a non-budget skill and that build is intended to be more budget-oriented (and really, if you're investing that heavily in Henry why aren't you doing the CC build), but... I will add it all the same I suppose. Can't argue with it being better than Fortress Def (honestly not a skill I'm particularly a fan of). 

[Ice Dragon]

2 hours ago, BANRYU said:

Ah, I should specify Infantry mages then, lol. Yeah Henry is definitely not better than Tharja unless you can't get Armor March, in which case his sole niche over her is being able to move 2 spaces to escape things he doesn't want to fight lol. 

I was mostly saying it was ironic because you were giving him Tharja's weapon.

 

2 hours ago, BANRYU said:

AtkDef Bond I'm less sold on since it's quite clearly a non-budget skill and that build is intended to be more budget-oriented (and really, if you're investing that heavily in Henry why aren't you doing the CC build), but... I will add it all the same I suppose. Can't argue with it being better than Fortress Def (honestly not a skill I'm particularly a fan of). 

I don't think it's particularly problematic to add non-budget options to improve a budget build. It gives players a path up from the budget build, and the skills may become more available in the future. Also, if you have a spare Fjorm, but no spare Takumi or Tharja, it's not like you could make the Close Counter build in the first place.

[Junkhead]

Henry's the bulkiest Infantry Mage. While Odin & Merric have solid physical bulk, they're far better suited aiming to improve on their Spd (especially the latter, with his new refine). The closest comparison is Sophia. +Def Sophia and +Res Henry are very similiar...with the obvious +10 Atk advantage on her, and his apparently-useless +5 HP (we'll get there...). While Boey may seem like an identical Green version of Henry, I actually find Henry's +7 Res/2 HP to end up playing out better. The only real advantage is that he's apparently in a more "meta" Colour, which mostly just translates to his Reinhardt matchup.

You do well on also mentioning his use of Panic Ploy, because it's also probably an important advantage he may end up having against Sophia. While she may not struggle to Ploy characters like Lyn & Delthea, she cannot do so on all the other ones (Reinhardt being one of them). I ran some numbers on a budget ranged counter Henry, and it looks like he beats all the Reinhardts on the list. He even beats Blade Tome Delthea, for whatever it's worth (actually a lot, considering his reputation). All thanks to Panic Ploy.

I also always like to mention his Res boon. It's a superboon, which puts him at a solid 29 (coupled with 45 HP). This not only patches it up a bit, but it makes him fairly competent at a lot more matchups, like Dragons and mages (especially with Panic Ploy/Atk Smoke). I'm still not a fan of +Atk. The Atk is always bad, and at best, "not that awful". +Def/Res just make him better at surviving, which gets even better with Owls and ends up translating into stronger Bonfire/Ignis (which somewhat mitigate his Ak). I consistently setup strong enough Bonfires that they are able to oneround people like Fjorm or Sharena, which isn't a bad feat. His Ignis can get so strong you can oneshot important examples like Nowi. That's all because I focus on increasing his strengths, rather than trying to patch up negligeble weaknesses.

 

I heavily disagree with Quickened Pulse. I'm a bit conservative when it comes to certain slots, and these are one of them where I find extra stats (in his case, defenses) would benefit a lot more. Quickened Pulse sets tend to prioritise one single, strong outcome- and then they mostly fall out of comission. Henry is one of the very few mages that can actually be prepared (and almost specialises) in being able to outlast his opponents through multiple battles...and the Owl, specifically, is what sets him up to be capable of just that. Atk Smoke is what synergises for that kind of role, but I like how he turns the tides on his opponent with Panic Ploy (tell me your experience, if you've tried it). Candelabra is just an Owl Effect 1, but Owls get a lot better in an actual team.

I hand it to you, for making a Henry build way before me. I'm just the new guy.

Edited July 13, 2018 by Oz ♠

[BANRYU]

Looking over this again, I agree that +Atk is probably not the best, and that this boi could definitely use a bit of an overhaul, where +Def and +Res should be the preferred options on any given set really. 

Henry's high HP letting him make use of Panic Ploy and Infantry Pulse is one of his main advantages over other mages as well, yeah. 

As for QuickPulse, I will be honest and chalk that up to lack of experience at the time of writing lol. Completely agree, he definitely wants different S-passives like Close/Distant Defense, Panic Ploy, or Atk Smoke instead. 

Yes, Henry can definitely use an overhaul! And especially with both Close Counter and Raudrowl becoming more accessible due to Canas' and Takumi's F2P availability, there's scarcely been a better time to take advantage of dat boi's unique traits-- and write him as such. 

I'm going through your analysis ATM and seeing what can be used from it, and would be happy to share co-author credit, since you've clearly put some work in yourself as well. 

 

Here's what I'm getting that should be changed/added: 

• +Def/+Res* > +Atk
• Ideal S/C skills should be Infantry Pulse, Atk Smoke, Panic Ploy, and Close/Distant Defense (will run tests to see if the latter two make a substantial enough difference to be mandatory, or if they can be skipped)
• I think it's safe to say Owl, Candle, and to a lesser extent Raven are all the best/most usable weapons on him, though do let me know if perhaps there's a special banner one I might have forgotten about
• I feel AtkDef or AtkRes Bond is probably worth mentioning alongside Close Counter on an Owl build, since the Bond skills synergize super nicely with Owl tomes and might even be worth skipping close counter on (though that is the main reason to use Henry over other red mages, besides his HP)
• Guard should definitely be mentioned somewhere, shame on me for not doing so myself
• Does Dull Ranged get good enough results to be worth consideration? It sounds pretty lackluster on paper I'll admit, though in practice I don't know what it can do, so maybe I'd be surprised
• ....and lastly (but perhaps most importantly), I need some good owl puns to name the set after lol. It's what Henry would want

[XRay]

2 hours ago, BANRYU said:

+Def/+Res* > +Atk

I will double check the calculator. Sometimes it is not clear cut that +Def/Res is better than +Atk. For units with low Atk like Henry, you are giving up quite a bit of kills to make him more survivable. Unless there is a specific enemy that you need Henry to counter using +Def, I prefer +Atk for better kill count.

Henry -Spd
Rauðrowl [Def][2 Ally], Bonfire
Close Counter, Quick Riposte
Close Def

Enemies +5, +Atk, Moonbow, Fury
Enemy Phase [+Def] 97:78:93
Enemy Phase [+Atk] 112:88:68

Non Blue Enemies +5, +Atk, Moonbow, Fury
Enemy Phase [+Def] 97:26:75
Enemy Phase [+Atk] 112:32:54

Non Blue/Red Enemies +5, +Atk, Moonbow, Fury
Enemy Phase [+Def] 62:7:45
Enemy Phase [+Atk] 72:8:34

[Ice Dragon]

@BANRYU

I second that +Def or +Res is not necessarily better than +Atk, but I feel all three should be mentioned because they serve three different purposes.

Guard's primary advantage over Close Def is that it stops common melee builds that run +10/+20 Special damage, which are the largest melee threat to Henry.

Dull Ranged is preferred if you need Henry to check ranged units more than melee units because the more threatening ones are threatening because of Litrblade, which prevents them from activating a Special skill in a timely manner.

[Junkhead]

I was taking into consideration at what period this thread was made. At least it wasn't made last year, where refines weren't into play.

4 hours ago, BANRYU said:

I'm going through your analysis ATM and seeing what can be used from it, and would be happy to share co-author credit, since you've clearly put some work in yourself as well. 

I appreciate it, thank you.

It's to be noted that I only came to a lot of my conclusions on a lot of experimentation, ever since I made my Henry...about less than two weeks ago.

4 hours ago, BANRYU said:

• Ideal S/C skills should be Infantry Pulse, Atk Smoke, Panic Ploy, and Close/Distant Defense (will run tests to see if the latter two make a substantial enough difference to be mandatory, or if they can be skipped)

Close & Distant Def are likely undisputed. For one, unlike Ploy Seal slots, they actually synergise with these by stacking. It's up to personal preference as to which one you prefer of the two, but apparently melee opponents become more of a threat in higher Arena scores.

I won't deny something like mixing C/S-slot debuffs has some sort of advantage to, them, however. Atk Ploy is a -5 debuff, irregardless of magic or physical, ranged or melee. Close/Distant Def has you choosing only one of these. Something like Atk Smoke + Threaten Atk could debuff all opponents within your range. He might also be able to double as a tanky debuffer, so don't completely discard that Poison Strike+Savage Blow idea you had (I wanna hear it).

Lastly, Close & Distant Def are amazing...if only it'd stuff certain lower-Special threats. Yeah, you're missing out on +6 Def/Res, but then you're also very, very hard to kill if you managed to get the most out of your defense buffs. I encourage you to check out my video on what I've tested:

4 hours ago, BANRYU said:

• I think it's safe to say Owl, Candle, and to a lesser extent Raven are all the best/most usable weapons on him, though do let me know if perhaps there's a special banner one I might have forgotten about

Owl is his single undisputed best weapon. Candelabra also works, to a lesser extent. Raven is up there, but I consider it more of an option for people who aren't willing to invest as much and just want him as some kind of more-specific counter.

4 hours ago, BANRYU said:

• I feel AtkDef or AtkRes Bond is probably worth mentioning alongside Close Counter on an Owl build, since the Bond skills synergize super nicely with Owl tomes and might even be worth skipping close counter on (though that is the main reason to use Henry over other red mages, besides his HP)

I don't think it's worth skipping for those...and not only that, they're skill fairly rare skills stuck on *5-exclusives. You may as well just take a Distant Def A-slot altogether, since it's arguably been/is more available and gives him an edge against both magic and physical units. And since you're not using CC, he's fighting ranged either way.

4 hours ago, BANRYU said:

• Does Dull Ranged get good enough results to be worth consideration? It sounds pretty lackluster on paper I'll admit, though in practice I don't know what it can do, so maybe I'd be surprised

At the time, I think I somewhat forgot about Dull Ranged's actual effect. Had it mixed up with Panic Ploy, and forgot Panic Ploy is just far better "in paper". What I mean by that, is that only constraints is that you have 3 more HP than your enemy and that you align perfectly with them, in terms of positioning. At least this frees of a B-slot for something like Guard or whatever.

 

@Ice Dragon @XRay

I don't entirely trust calculators. A lot of the time, characters win by simply having an extra +1 Atk/Spd. It's not just about getting from point A to B, but also about how they get their- and more importantly, what happens afterwards. Apparently it's custom thinking that to be succesful in Arena, one must only be able to counter within their range (meaning within what they're specialised to target). That's why a lot of characters suddenly become "good" or usable just by having one of Sword or Bowbreaker (don't take this example so literally, but I'm sure you get my example). It's a low standard for me, and I wouldn't limit characters to just one role.

In my case, I feel like I fully build a lot of my characters to handle situations beyond what is expected of them. A lot of the time, I build them to be able to kill important counter-triangle threats, even if they technically don't "need" to.

How does this apply to anything that was just said? +Atk Henry may end up killing more in perfect circumstances; but to use his full capabilities and play to his strengths, he never just stops there. Actual battles are rarely in a vacuum. You don't just fight one character and end your career, which is what I've been advocating is his biggest strength. To give you a calculator example, I ran the Turn Order in "Enemy > Enemy", meaning it's purely Enemy Phase-centric. He performs a lot better that way than he would with just "Enemy > Player Phase". In my examples, I stack all defensive buffs that enemies are barely even hurting him, and so much that a lot of times they don't even knock him out of Guard range. One of the cool things about it, is that he's like a ticking timebomb. They're forced to do something or potentially get oneshotted.

[Ice Dragon]

4 hours ago, Junkhead said:

I don't entirely trust calculators. A lot of the time, characters win by simply having an extra +1 Atk/Spd.

That just means you're not using them to their full capabilities. You can just run the numbers against opponents with different buffs and see how that affects each match-up. Arcticsilverfox's calculator also tells you by how much the winner overkills and what the final HP values are, and it's not terribly hard to just peruse them to see if the changes to a build are worth an increase or decrease in losses or wins.

I don't always pick the build with the most kills because there are other important factors to consider. For example, if a build loses just a few match-ups on the first round of combat, but gains many more match-ups with Desperation active, then I'd be willing to make that sacrifice.

 

4 hours ago, Junkhead said:

Apparently it's custom thinking that to be succesful in Arena, one must only be able to counter within their range (meaning within what they're specialised to target). That's why a lot of characters suddenly become "good" or usable just by having one of Sword or Bowbreaker (don't take this example so literally, but I'm sure you get my example). It's a low standard for me, and I wouldn't limit characters to just one role.

I'm actually going to take your example literally because I think you're looking at it the wrong way.

Many units that run Swordbreaker aren't doing it to become good. They run Swordbreaker because they already cover their primary role, and Swordbreaker helps with their secondary role. Take, for example, Lilina and Soleil. Both of them have enough firepower in them to pretty much cover all of green without the need for a skill in their passive B slot, meaning the next role they should try to optimize is their neutral matchups, which is what Swordbreaker is for.

 

4 hours ago, Junkhead said:

He performs a lot better that way than he would with just "Enemy > Player Phase".

My measure of enemy-phase performance is "Enemy". An enemy-phase unit should be expected to kill its intended targets in one round of combat without relying on a player phase or a second enemy phase. And preferably do it without losing too much HP when at weapon triangle advantage.

Any enemy that is alive after one round of combat is a threat that can be danced, Repositioned, used as a beacon for Wings of Mercy, or possibly land a Galeforce, and that simply won't do.

[Junkhead]

That's okay, it's unlikely he'll drop enemies down to 50% consistent enough off of stray hits for that to happen.

I'm sure there's more to it.

[XRay]

I second what @Ice Dragon says, but I will also offer some additional opinions.

17 hours ago, Junkhead said:

I don't entirely trust calculators. A lot of the time, characters win by simply having an extra +1 Atk/Spd.

Calculators require some set up to use and how you set it up depends on your build. It also is not always a simple matter of finding the highest kill count against all enemies; if you are testing an Enemy Phase or niche unit, you sometimes have to test them against a subset of enemies or specific high threat individuals, such as against only Red if the unit is running Sapphire Lance-Distant Counter or against Ishtar and Celica if the unit is built as a Res tank.

17 hours ago, Junkhead said:

one must only be able to counter within their range (meaning within what they're specialised to target). That's why a lot of characters suddenly become "good" or usable just by having one of Sword or Bowbreaker (don't take this example so literally, but I'm sure you get my example). It's a low standard for me, and I wouldn't limit characters to just one role.

17 hours ago, Junkhead said:

I build them to be able to kill important counter-triangle threats, even if they technically don't "need" to.

Going against the triangle is not very reliable.

Units are built to either be generalists (with high kill counts against all enemies) or specialists (high kill counts against a subset of enemies or countering specific threats). Generalists are competent enough to go against the triangle occasionally, while specialists can rarely do that. Most units are better off as specialists.

Player Phase nukes are your generalists. Reinhardt will pretty much kill anyone unless they are specifically built to rein him in or are armor units stacked to the brim with Ward Armor.

Top tier Enemy Phase units like Hector and Myrrh are also pretty good generalists, since they are able to prevent enemy follow-up attacks while making one themselves via Quick Riposte.

Most Enemy Phase units are not cut out to be generalists, so they need to pick their poison and specialize. You can make Lukas can fight mages with the right skill set, but he will have to pay the price of being less able to deal with melee units, which he normally has no problem handling, i.e.: Lukas cannot take on both Cordelia and Ishtar with one skill set even if they are at 5*+10 (tanks do better at higher merges with bulk going up twice as fast as Atk).

If Lukas has trouble just covering all blues, expecting Henry to go against the triangle and do well is unrealistic. There is no way a Henry can counter high threat units like Ishtar and Cordelia if they are built properly.

Edited July 15, 2018 by XRay

[Junkhead]

6 hours ago, XRay said:

I second what @Ice Dragon says, but I will also offer some additional opinions.

Calculators require some set up to use and how you set it up depends on your build. It also is not always a simple matter of finding the highest kill count against all enemies; if you are testing an Enemy Phase or niche unit, you sometimes have to test them against a subset of enemies or specific high threat individuals, such as against only Red if the unit is running Sapphire Lance-Distant Counter or against Ishtar and Celica if the unit is built as a Res tank.

I just go to Artic Fox's simulator and run the "700-710 tally", which seems to have all the common characters under optimal setups as well as a lot of them being something like +5.

I'd actually be interested if someone has something along the lines of 710-720

Quote

Going against the triangle is not very reliable.

Units are built to either be generalists (with high kill counts against all enemies) or specialists (high kill counts against a subset of enemies or countering specific threats). Generalists are competent enough to go against the triangle occasionally, while specialists can rarely do that. Most units are better off as specialists.

Player Phase nukes are your generalists. Reinhardt will pretty much kill anyone unless they are specifically built to rein him in or are armor units stacked to the brim with Ward Armor.

Top tier Enemy Phase units like Hector and Myrrh are also pretty good generalists, since they are able to prevent enemy follow-up attacks while making one themselves via Quick Riposte.

Most Enemy Phase units are not cut out to be generalists, so they need to pick their poison and specialize. You can make Lukas can fight mages with the right skill set, but he will have to pay the price of being less able to deal with melee units, which he normally has no problem handling, i.e.: Lukas cannot take on both Cordelia and Ishtar with one skill set even if they are at 5*+10 (tanks do better at higher merges with bulk going up twice as fast as Atk).

If Lukas has trouble just covering all blues, expecting Henry to go against the triangle and do well is unrealistic. There is no way a Henry can counter high threat units like Ishtar and Cordelia if they are built properly.

"Generalist" sounds like a character who doesn't maximise on one thing and tries to be all of it at once. My case with Henry, I do mostly maximise his durability without taking a hit in one area or the other, which I really find ends up making the difference in a real setting rather than individually-ran encounters on a calculator. I have him be able to tank a few guys if I'm able to score Atk Smoke well, as well. I do this a lot, in actual practice- granted, I'm nowhere near 730+ score ranges, but I still face a fair amount of +5 common threats like Dragons and Reinhardts. Wish half of those Nowis actually invested in Res, that way I can at least proud about oneshotting them.

I just want @BANRYU to read this discussion.

I never found competitive value in Arena until I started my first merging project...said being Henry, of course. Makes it a lot better when you're facing equally-competent, or stronger enemies.

Edited July 15, 2018 by Junkhead

[XRay]

1 hour ago, Junkhead said:

"Generalist" sounds like a character who doesn't maximise on one thing and tries to be all of it at once.

I use the term generalist to refer to units that go for the highest kill count against all enemies. For Player Phase units, they maximize Atk and Spd and preserve just enough bulk for surviving 1 counter attack. For Enemy Phase units, that mostly applies to just Myrrh and Hector who can prevent follow up attacks via their skills, and Ward Armor and Ward Dragon teams who trivialize enemy attacks via buff stacking. The difference between Henry and these Enemy Phase units is that these Enemy Phase units can kill things in one round of combat, whereas Henry cannot.

1 hour ago, Junkhead said:

My case with Henry, I do mostly maximise his durability without taking a hit in one area or the other, which I really find ends up making the difference in a real setting rather than individually-ran encounters on a calculator.

Maximizing his durability at the cost of his damage output is not always a good thing. As @Ice Dragon mentioned, Wings of Mercy, Galeforce, and Dancers/Singers can kill somebody on the team other than Henry, especially if you are grouping them all up just to make sure Henry has enough stats to tank. Vantage is also a problem. Additionally, enemies that run Desperation generally is a non issue since they die in one round of combat, but when you deploy walls that do not kill, they become a menace.

1 hour ago, Junkhead said:

I do this a lot, in actual practice- granted, I'm nowhere near 730+ score ranges, but I still face a fair amount of +5 common threats like Dragons and Reinhardts. Wish half of those Nowis actually invested in Res, that way I can at least proud about oneshotting them.

I just checked the calculator and I do not think Henry can win against Nowi unless she has significantly lower merges. If you want Henry to tank pimped out Reinhardt, he needs +12 to Res from his allies (this is assuming he Res stacks everywhere else except the A slot for Close Counter), and requiring that level of support to make him go against the triangle is not realistic as a lot of maps do not have enough free space to utilize that formation. This is also assuming all of them are 5*+10 to give Henry the most bulk possible.

Edited July 16, 2018 by XRay

[Ice Dragon]

3 hours ago, Junkhead said:

I'd actually be interested if someone has something along the lines of 710-720

Arcticsilverfox's Hard List is a list of most of the strongest builds you can possibly do in this game, though it seems to be missing a few characters, like Raven and newer characters (anyone from after Legendary Ryoma).

You can use the "Enable Mass Enemy Adjustment" setting under "Duel Rules" to adjust enemy buffs and merges all at once.

[Junkhead]

28 minutes ago, Ice Dragon said:

Arcticsilverfox's Hard List is a list of most of the strongest builds you can possibly do in this game, though it seems to be missing a few characters, like Raven and newer characters (anyone from after Legendary Ryoma).

You can use the "Enable Mass Enemy Adjustment" setting under "Duel Rules" to adjust enemy buffs and merges all at once.

I checked and the Hard List isn't there.

What is "Sundere's List".

What is "DPT List".

None of them but 700-710 list have merges. They're lame.

[Junkhead]

 

- I keep going back to practice > theory. In theory, it should be a lot worse to get a Cordelia WoM Galeforce you...but then, this is pretty much Henry's Atk output. +Atk would make that even worse, in theory. I never actually had it happen in the hundreds of time I've been trying him out.

- And yeah, these Nowis seem to consistently hit +5.  90% sure I can down a +10 Nowi, assuming she doesn't go over 40 Res.

- No, I'm not running intro trouble against Vantage or any of that because Henry can't even do damage (Guard helps, by the way).

- People probably think I run like 3 adjacents with like double Spurs each. It's actually 1-2 adjacents and Drives & Tactics contribute massively. It's really not that hard to pull off.

-Yes, that's a kill.

 

Funny enough, I did just ran into a Cordelia. 65 Atk, with Atk tactic. Had I had Panic Ploy, that would've nuked her Dmg anywhere from 0-2, pretty much just throwing logs at the Ignis.

Edited July 16, 2018 by Junkhead

[Ice Dragon]

1 hour ago, Junkhead said:

I checked and the Hard List isn't there.

What is "Sundere's List".

What is "DPT List".

I have no idea where you are, but I'm here (http://arcticsilverfox.com/feh_sim/) and the options are "Custom list", "Filtered full list", "704-718 List", and "Hard List".

 

7 minutes ago, Junkhead said:

In theory, it should be a lot worse to get a Cordelia WoM Galeforce you...

The problem is that a Cordelia that just Galeforced you is probably not going to attack Henry again. She's going to hit one of your other units because setting up Spurs and Drives forces your units to stay close together.

[Junkhead]

15 minutes ago, Ice Dragon said:

I have no idea where you are, but I'm here (http://arcticsilverfox.com/feh_sim/) and the options are "Custom list", "Filtered full list", "704-718 List", and "Hard List".

Beats me. They're identical.

Anyway, thanks.

15 minutes ago, Ice Dragon said:

The problem is that a Cordelia that just Galeforced you is probably not going to attack Henry again. She's going to hit one of your other units because setting up Spurs and Drives forces your units to stay close together.

Yeah, you guys make logical points. I'm not entirely going to deny them. I'd actually like to experience more circumstances like that and get back to you, as I realise I speak in somewhat biased way. I still feel like anecdote isn't completely completely useless.

[Ice Dragon]

15 minutes ago, Junkhead said:

Beats me. They're identical.

Anyway, thanks.

On the Andu2 simulator, you can select the "Adjustments" radio button and hit "Apply" for the "Hero Merge" setting to set merges for the entire list.

[BANRYU]

I hope y'all can forgive me for merely skimming this discussion =3=

 

Regarding the combat sims, while yes, they should never be viewed in a vacuum, they are undeniably useful for mass-testing matchups, whether against everyone at once or even narrowed down against a selective demographic of targets that the unit is needed to handle. Hard results are also important, to be sure, but neither should be overlooked IMO. 

In any case, I'm thinking the breakdown for Henry's builds might want to be IV-based possibly, since pretty much all his -Spd IVs seem to have their merits (even +HP might be... debatably useful for HP-based skills, but. shrug. others probably better) With regards to what @Ice Dragon was saying about specialism VS generalism, I think it's best for Henry to focus on the type of units he wants to counter, as opposed to maybe the color. (example: Wolf Sophia, who can potentially live through QP Moonbow Rein) If he CAN successfully bait and kill blue tanks who ordinarily are intended for enemy phase play, that is a perk he can afford himself, though his target focus should not be on them for the aforementioned reason of losing points in other areas.

I'm thinking something along the lines of: 

• +Def = CC + Guard + QR/CD (survival-focused; specialist against wrath/wo dao/slaying/etc melee units)
• +Res = CC/AtkRes Bond + Dull Ranged + QR/CD/DD (generalist if CC / ranged specialist if ARB; intended mainly to handle red/green/grey ranged units on emblem teams that pack the higher buffs, or else just blade mages. Since his Res isn't the best, I'm not entirely convinced he is best suited to this; its main niche would be the likes of Hibowka, STakumi, SKagero, etc. but I'm not sure they're common enough to warrant specializing against. testing will help I'm sure)
• +Atk = CC + QR + CD/DD (kill-count focused melee specialist, with a side of bow/dagger handling capabilities)

(for other skills assume the standard Owl + bonfirignis + Panic Ploy/Infantry Pulse/Atk Smoke)

I haven't had a chance to run simtests yet regrettably, but I feel like this discussion has been good for narrowing my focus when it does come to the testing. 

 

With regards to the Savage Poison build I had, it's bad. Just. Really bad, unfortunately. I like it in terms of concept and flavor, but it performed poorly even before staff refinements were introduced, and trust me, Henry is better off taking advantage of what he has over staff-users: his ability to kill things with a proc.

[Ice Dragon]

21 minutes ago, BANRYU said:

I'm thinking something along the lines of: 

Every nature has an argument to run Guard + Quick Riposte because it's one of the best skill combinations for any tank build. In particular, as long as you're running Close Counter, Guard + Quick Riposte shuts down every unit that relies primarily on their Special to break through bulky units (which is pretty much everyone with a physical melee weapon).

[BANRYU]

15 minutes ago, Ice Dragon said:

Every nature has an argument to run Guard + Quick Riposte because it's one of the best skill combinations for any tank build. In particular, as long as you're running Close Counter, Guard + Quick Riposte shuts down every unit that relies primarily on their Special to break through bulky units (which is pretty much everyone with a physical melee weapon).

Fair. I suppose that's the basis for the primary build, with any of the listed natures suitable for the job, then. When I run calcs I'll make note of which foes each IV handles better. 

[Junkhead]

I just wanted Bangu to see.

+HP can be cool at avoiding ploys/ploying things like a lot of the Knights & Nowi. I mentioned Dull-Ranged once, but I think it's probably because apparently Panic Ploy doesn't fully shutdown Blade Tomes...just something I heard. If that's not the case, Panic Ploy is just better in most cases.