Cuphead In: Don't Deal With the Mafia (Game Over)

[Ochako Uraraka]

@Captain Brineybeard @Werner Werman @Baroness Von Bon Bon where did you go?

[C. C.]

sorry I was at a conference all day.

I guess from my perspective I can see why Grim would vote scum!Baroness- other people were and he'd been pushing that on D2 so it would look super suspicious if he didn't. I just don't quite understand why Baroness would "play along", as you said? As you've pointed out lots, he had to actively bump Grim over you on his priority to vote him. Given that he still continued to push you, why not just vote you instead of Grim?

Question- given that your initial reaction to Rumor's vote on you D2 was that it was "self-preservation", why didn't you vote her? Self-preservation that early in the day is pretty scummy because town don't normally resort to voting their counterwagon until late in the day. I know you were townreading her on D1 but you never really said why you kept that read despite this posts about Rumor on D2, which was very critical of her case on you:

You say I'm waffling on you, but I've been defending you. Your reasons for voting me are false. You've done nothing to dissuade Kahl from not voting you, just because I disagree with someone's reasons, I need to call them out and not be fine with it? Wtf is that logic? 

In fact in general I feel like your read on Rumor is consistently disconnected from your posts about her because several times you were like "I think they're town but this is shitty": 

Ah, I noticed that the Honeybee didn't change her vote to Grim after defending her scumread on Grim. That is, I think, my only problem with her right now.

Should be town but the fuck is that vote?: Rumor Honeybottoms

I have been defending you from the start; I can't do anything about you playing badly and not voting people who you actually think are scummy, considering that you actually didn't vote someone who you thought was scummy.

It seems you focus way more on the "but this is shitty" part than on the "I think they're town" part. Also, I'm not quite sure why you were townreading them on D1? You defend them a couple times, most particularly from Grim, but you never really say why?

[Estelle]

I will deal with this tomorrow.  Late tomorrow, that is.  It's late, and I'm not thinking straight.

[Ochako Uraraka]

7 hours ago, Captain Brineybeard said:

sorry I was at a conference all day.

I guess from my perspective I can see why Grim would vote scum!Baroness- other people were and he'd been pushing that on D2 so it would look super suspicious if he didn't. I just don't quite understand why Baroness would "play along", as you said? As you've pointed out lots, he had to actively bump Grim over you on his priority to vote him. Given that he still continued to push you, why not just vote you instead of Grim?

Question- given that your initial reaction to Rumor's vote on you D2 was that it was "self-preservation", why didn't you vote her? Self-preservation that early in the day is pretty scummy because town don't normally resort to voting their counterwagon until late in the day. I know you were townreading her on D1 but you never really said why you kept that read despite this posts about Rumor on D2, which was very critical of her case on you:

In fact in general I feel like your read on Rumor is consistently disconnected from your posts about her because several times you were like "I think they're town but this is shitty": 

It seems you focus way more on the "but this is shitty" part than on the "I think they're town" part. Also, I'm not quite sure why you were townreading them on D1? You defend them a couple times, most particularly from Grim, but you never really say why?

Its less that she needs to agree and more that half the condition for the bus was already at their plate, might as well roll with it. We already had issues with Baroness' Grim case on D3 and she was adamant with it; I think voting Grim over me would be safer for her after the D2 debacle, not sure why you're asking this, she got flak for pushing me anyway, do you think if she had voted me on D3 people would've sat still with her? As I said I don't have a concrete argument for why she had to still push me D3 while voting Grim, I have ideas but its just speculation. Like I think it would look awkward for her to suddenly think of me as town from flips, especially when she voted me at the end of D1 making a statement even if it made her look hypocritical. 

I think this line of thought is derailing my case though. My case isn't a scum!Baroness from Grim interactions, its a case where Baroness' actions individually are scummy and her interactions with Grim aren't what people are making it out to be, cannot be signed off as town vs scum. 

 

Well I didn't think that mafia would so boldly leave an unvote like that during D1 and garner attention, I also feel like if mafia had so much to say about a player, why wouldn't they vote them and get away with it? I think its unfair to ask me why I townread Rumor, you did for similar reasons later on in the game too. And it felt more likely to come from bad town than scum. Also if you townread someone and they make a bad vote like that, why would you suddenly change your mind and vote them like that? I dunno what else to reply to this. 

I need to ask, why do you think Baroness' play comes from town? Ever since D2 her only content has been related to Grim and I; if it was relate to anyone else there was barely any of it and she had to be prodded for it; she was most active during D3 when she was being put up as a lynch target, and has sketchy activity otherwise; her reads have had bad, or IMO convenient explanations as well. Why do you think this behavior comes from town?

[Cú Chulainn]

Sorry I wasn't around yesterday.  It was a busy day for me and even though I was glancing at the thread periodically from my phone I wasn't really in a place to post.

[Cú Chulainn]

6 hours ago, Cala Maria said:

 Like I think it would look awkward for her to suddenly think of me as town from flips, especially when she voted me at the end of D1 making a statement even if it made her look hypocritical. 

When did I ever say I thought of you as town?

[Cú Chulainn]

6 hours ago, Cala Maria said:

 I need to ask, why do you think Baroness' play comes from town? Ever since D2 her only content has been related to Grim and I; if it was relate to anyone else there was barely any of it and she had to be prodded for it; she was most active during D3 when she was being put up as a lynch target, and has sketchy activity otherwise; her reads have had bad, or IMO convenient explanations as well. Why do you think this behavior comes from town?

I was fairly active consistently after day 3.  More so than you have been.  I've been in the thread and talking more than you since day 3 onwards.  I also feel like saying my reads are bad or have convenient explanations is also just a misrep or an attempt to make me look bad.  I have had cases that, in my personal opinion, are good and have definite reasoning to them.  Some people have shrugged them off, some people have agreed with my cases.  Some people have posted the same general cases as me except worded slightly better.  An example of this is Captains Grim case.  It pretty much was exactly what my case on Grim has been since fucking day 3 except for the fact that he was able to word it better than me.

[Cú Chulainn]

On 2/23/2018 at 9:14 AM, Cala Maria said:

I spoke yesterday about how I thought of various scum teams. I think Baroness is likely to be the last mafia over Captain.

-I don't buy Baroness putting in an effort to lynch Grim as a towntell. She hasn't had the need to change her opinions ever since D2, she generally repeated the same arguments over and over during days 3 and 4, and her day 5 play is exactly what scum would do to put themselves in a better position anyway. Scum wants people to focus on a mislynch, they like shutting down other arguments, town don't continue a tunnel at MYLO and stop thinking about other possibilities. I don't think Baroness' efforts are a sign of town at all, its easy to tunnel your way through as scum without making any effort in faking any rethinking of stances.

I didn't quit thinking of other possibilities.  I also didn't just outright vote him BECAUSE I was listening to other arguments.  Also what?  "Scum wants people to focus on a mislynch."  That's a weird thing to say considering the fact that we lynched scum.  I've stated previously that I had slight thoughts WRT who else could be scum but I stated the words "I am much more confident however in my Grim/Cala reads than I am in those potential scum reads."  Literally all of this paragraph is a lie WRT what I've stated about raids and a blatant lie about my Day 5 play.  If by your argument scum wants to focus on a misslynch and shut down arguments; why did I push Grim as scum?  Why did I spur conversation a bit?  I didn't shut down arguments on D5 nor did I shut out the entire possibility of what others were saying.  Considering the only other real possbility though was either Grim/Captain or Cala/Captain, since I'm not scum, I didn't feel that confident in Scum!Captain.  I also heavily believe Werner is town so if they are scum GG.  Which goes back to the whole thing of me being more confident in my scum read on Grim/Cala and considering Grim was my BIGGEST scumread of the game I was most confident in that lynch.

-The 180 on her Rumor read is bad, null read on Rumor D1 is just what I'd expect from scum MI.

Null > town Isn't a 180.  You should look up the definition of it.  Why would I go from Null > Town read on Rumor as scum when he's under pressure?

-Chainsaw defence of Rumor against Wally is a bad associative tell.

I would like an explanation of why Wally was town pre-cop claim.  Because from my PoV looking at his play before he claimed cop, it wasn't that good.  Honestly his argument and his posts WRT Rumor at the point in time are VERY similiar to my posts WRT Grim starting around day 4 ish.

-I feel like Captain trying to get Rumor lynched or suggesting a Sally turbo D1 when his buddies DGAF about the game is unlikely, I think baroness' D1 in general fits scum MI. I also feel like there are good cases for Captain being town but the only case for  town!Baroness is arguing her as bad town. I also feel like scum!Captain today would've opened today with me being outright scum since he was pushing the dichotomy yesterday and it would be very easy to push my lynch today since everyone accepted that idea instead of waffling and making arguments for why I could be town.

I also hate that it keeps getting brushed off as 'bad town'  I have had some bad plays, yeah, I was inactive for a large part of day 1/2 and part of 3, yeah.  But I have made good arguments and I was headway in pointing out the scummy behavior behind Grim as well as the main person to drive his lynch.  If I'm bad then I guess all of town is just as bad for following that.  This is a bad argument and once again just ignores everything I've done that is good.  Just because you keep saying I'm scum doesn't mean you can just ignore everything I've down.

-I can't talk about why a scum!Baroness would push me still during D3 while not actually voting me. But what I do know is this, and this is definitely biased from my end, but: we know for a fact that Baroness pushing a Grim/Cala scumteam was a pre-D5 thing, around D4, she was the first to push it. FMPOV it isn't a stretch to think that a scum!Baroness pushes a Grim before Cala because she knows Cala will look bad on a Grim flip, she won't get steam for a Cala before Grim lynch. Obviously from any other point of view this argument can go either way but I just wanted to put it out here.

I pushed both you and Grim during Day 3 and I felt you both were scummy.  However Grim's late day 2 and early day 3 were Worse in my eyes than your Day 2/3 posts that I'd seen.  Considering some of your interactions with Grim were posted in thread, I think there is plenty of reasoning to think there is something there. A large part of what you and Grim did/said or DIDNT say about each other is what Scum would generally want to do with their buddies.  Also as Scum!Baron why wouldn't I just push you?  This makes zero sense.  If your argument is that Scum!Baron would push Grim, so that I could then push you, then why would I do that as early as Day 3?  It makes no sense and would only put Scum!Baron in a worse spot if it succeeds.  If it was Scum!Baron and Town!Cala then it would be much better to push Cala THEN Grim and make up reasons for Grim connections with someone else after the Cala lynch.  So this entire argument doesn't make sense.

-Honestly if people are going to say that Grim/Baroness cannot be a bus, they're going to have to argue why a Rumor/Cala thing is a bus; the situation  for a bus is way more convoluted for Rumor/Cala than Grim/Baroness, where the situation is convenient.

How exactly is it convenient?  I know I'm town so I know it's not a bus, however from an outside perspective it totally could be a bus it would just be a bad one.

So let me ask you this @Cala Maria You previously said that the ONLY argument for me being town is that I'm 'bad town", which is in itself a misrep.  But what about from the scum perspective?

You have stated these arguments about me being scum but mostly all of the revolve around me being "bad scum".  Why am I more likely to be bad scum than bad town in your eyes?

[C. C.]

7 hours ago, Cala Maria said:

Well I didn't think that mafia would so boldly leave an unvote like that during D1 and garner attention, I also feel like if mafia had so much to say about a player, why wouldn't they vote them and get away with it? I think its unfair to ask me why I townread Rumor, you did for similar reasons later on in the game too. And it felt more likely to come from bad town than scum. Also if you townread someone and they make a bad vote like that, why would you suddenly change your mind and vote them like that? I dunno what else to reply to this. 

I need to ask, why do you think Baroness' play comes from town? Ever since D2 her only content has been related to Grim and I; if it was relate to anyone else there was barely any of it and she had to be prodded for it; she was most active during D3 when she was being put up as a lynch target, and has sketchy activity otherwise; her reads have had bad, or IMO convenient explanations as well. Why do you think this behavior comes from town?

I don't have a problem with you townreading Rumor so much as that you barely said why you were townreading her. You just acted like that was a given and defended her from attacks but most of the time when you actually said anything about her posts you were talking about how they were bad. and yeah they could have come from bad town but I feel like you would have made more of an effort to keep reiterating why you thought she was town if that was the case? not to mention, you were townreading her from very early on, before I was, for posts I found suspicious. These were the posts you made about her at that time:

My take on honey is that she's more likely to be town here. I feel like going for "Grim shut the door for a Kahl rebuttal" over the obvious part where Grim was passive initially and didn't make any committed read on Werner is more complex and likely to come from town over scum wanting to get by. Do you disagree?

Ah, I noticed that the Honeybee didn't change her vote to Grim after defending her scumread on Grim. That is, I think, my only problem with her right now.

This seems pretty at odds with what you just said. Here, her not voting Grim was a problem, not why you were townreading her. 

##Vote: Cala Maria

I think I'm good with this.

[Ochako Uraraka]

Don't understand your point.

Anyway, ##Vote: Baroness Von bon bon

Not sure if my net access will be stable today but this is where I'm voting.

[Estelle]

I'll be here tomorrow, I think.  This weekend is not going as planned.

Shit this game is confusing.  On D2 actions, Maria's more likely to be town, because she was Honeybottom's counter-wagon.  On N3 night kill/D5 stuff, Baroness is more likely to be town - Cagney wasn't keen on voting her, and Baroness dumped a LOT of effort into her Grim case (when scum needed a mislynch to win).  I'm not really seeing scum!Brineybeard in the last two day phases.

I'm going to log off, go to sleep, and see if I can make sense of this tomorrow.

[C. C.]

Well just now you said that you were townreading Rumor because you felt that she would have voted someone as scum. But on D1 you said that that was actually the thing you didn't like about her.

[Ochako Uraraka]

I don't see how that is contradictory? I can have a problem with someone while still townreading them. Like anyone would say that being voteless looks bad, not sure how that does't match up. My explanation is still that I don't think scum would go through the effort that she did for that D1, also the difference between me now and me during D1 is hindsight, so anything I say now will be colored by that. You even asked me about the unvote and I told you that it was likely that she forgot about it if she was town and that it wasn't necessarily a mafia thing.

[Ochako Uraraka]

On 2/4/2018 at 2:06 PM, Cala Maria said:

@Captain Brineybeard I don't know if this explains it better but Cagney looks like he's being self-conscious when he votes Grim and also mostly just uses the Honeybee's argument for why he thinks that Grim is scum. So the vote is a sheep but he's playing it off as a pressure vote and that looks very scummy to me. I feel like he has a stronger case on Kahl.

Honeybee on the other hand could have just as easily forgotten about voting but now that that's out of the bag any reply from her on this matter is going to be null.

This is my reply to you asking me about the differenc between Cagney and Rumor.

Bolded shows I didn't think of the no vote as necessarily scummy.

[Ochako Uraraka]

Tbh the more I think about your point the less its making sense to me. Are you saying I was waffling?  I'm only going to be as sure as I can be 5 pages into the game. 

[C. C.]

"there is a town explanation for this" is very different from "i am townreading someone for this". the former is what you say when you're townreading someone and they do something suspicious, the latter is something that's specifically indicative of them being town (even if it's also bad play). the former is what you were saying about rumor on d1 but the latter is what you said just now. 

that's kind of nitpicky but idk I feel like the main point still stands. you started townreading her on d1 because you felt like her grim case was good and then you kept townreading/defending her even though all the rest of your posts about her just pointed out bad stuff about her play. i'm just trying to contrast it to my own play/mentality at the time and for me it was like "yeah this is bad but it's indicative of them being town" and your posts were like "they're town but this is bad" and at a certain point it's like... there are only so many bad things that a player can do and still be a townread if you're not actually townreading them for that bad thing. 

[Ochako Uraraka]

Dude

Why would I find her Grim case good

Then scumread Grim

but not vote him

and also find an excuse for her being voteless

and then like

do nothing about it

as scum

like if this is supposed to be a bus its not even good

if its supposed to be a defense then I'm leaving myself open to changing my read later anyway

[C. C.]

3 minutes ago, Cala Maria said:

Dude

Why would I find her Grim case good

Then scumread Grim

but not vote him

and also find an excuse for her being voteless

and then like

do nothing about it

as scum

like if this is supposed to be a bus its not even good

if its supposed to be a defense then I'm leaving myself open to changing my read later anyway

almost all of these things are things scum do:

find buddies suspicious without actually voting them

find excuses for buddies doing bad things

defend buddies while leaving themselves open to change their read later

[Ochako Uraraka]

I don't know how else to convince you that I'm town.

Don't lynch me.

I'll grovel.

And be on my knees.

And beg.

[Ochako Uraraka]

Really though I have nothing else to say if that's all you have for my arguments, I can't argue against something as nitpicky as that; this feels like you are inventing reasons for me being scum.

[Cú Chulainn]

I want to listen to what Werner has to say.  I'm currently 90% set on voting Cala but I'd like to hear why Werner says specifically the last two days make Captain not scum.

[C. C.]

it's frustrating because you make posts and your tone sounds kind of townie, but I'm reading back all your older posts and remembering why I found you scummy back then and wanted to lynch you for half of D2, and I'm also finding your interactions with Rumor and Grim to be worse than Baroness's.

baroness going from null to town on rumor is pretty weird but i'm not exactly sure what the point of that would be as scum. it's not like he was actively defending her. saying he found her town and not doing anything else would just be tying himself to her without helping. i know you think that he was chainsaw defending her by attacking wally but i've never really felt that chainsaw defending is a thing. it's just a super roundabout way to go about things and i think most of what baroness attacked in wally's case deserved to be attacked.

it's also frustrating that I feel werner hasn't been doing much the past day or two but I feel like I'm just being paranoid there. some parts of their play correspond very strongly to their town meta but the past two days it feels like they've just been there saying stuff and not really trying to engage with anybody much

 

[C. C.]

5 minutes ago, Cala Maria said:

Really though I have nothing else to say if that's all you have for my arguments, I can't argue against something as nitpicky as that; this feels like you are inventing reasons for me being scum.

i dont know what to say because i feel like the arguments i'm making right now are what make me the most confident about you being scum so I don't know what to do with your posts where it seems like you're just not getting what I'm saying. on the one hand i feel like if you were scum you would either just surrender entirely and give up or you would try to respond rather than saying stuff like this. on the other hand i don't know how much of what you're saying I should even pay attention to because maybe it's all wifom

[C. C.]

8 minutes ago, Baroness Von Bon Bon said:

I want to listen to what Werner has to say.  I'm currently 90% set on voting Cala but I'd like to hear why Werner says specifically the last two days make Captain not scum.

why do you not care about what cala is saying if you're only 90% sure that she's scum?

##Unvote

gonna think about it more idk. i might still return to a cala vote. a part of me is seriously very tempted to vote werner but stuff she's said about her being okay with getting voted and potentially lynched if it means it's good for interactions is almost exactly what she's done as town before. gonna read her posts again. her grim interactions iirc were townie but i don't remember her rumor interactions at all.

what do you guys think about werner?

[C. C.]

i need to still finish some work before sleeping so I'll probably return to this tomorrow