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What would you want out of a FE5 Echoes?


Corrobin
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  • Remove uncertainty for the sake of uncertainty. No more 99% Hit cap; a minimum cap is fine though, but I think it should scale with Skill (makes that stat more relevant). And please don't weight the crit/dodge formulas towards always facing crit rates without a scroll...
  • More consistent enemy stats. I don't mind a little random variance, but please not have them be wimps by default depending on random large stat boosts to be good.
  • A more complete magic system; there are gaping holes in the magic types that weren't present in Genealogy and they feel extremely bare bones as a result. (Even if you're only using the basic magics 95% of the time...)
  • Dismounting should stay, but they could maybe give us a little more leeway with weapons?
  • Capturing, stealing, fatigue, Escape objectives, hot potato trading and minimum deployment are all lovely Thracia 776 staples that should absolutely stay. Tweaked a little maybe, but no way should any of them be removed.
3 hours ago, Levant Mir Celestia said:

Okay, so it's good for defending against mages. Too bad it's too heavy to be used for much else... also, there's no guaranteed hit or miss, meaning that the risk doesn't completely go away (Spoiler alert: Linoan's as good as dead if she whiffs after getting attacked by anything physical). Speaking of... why in the seven hells is Linoan saddled with a plot based promotion???

99% Hit is still hitting 99 times out of 100, a Wrath crit is gonna OHKO just about any non-boss enemy, and you're not going through all 60 uses in one chapter. If you tank ten enemies at most there's still a 90% chance of success. You won't trust her enough to use it much pre-promotion anyway, and by the point in the game where you double down on its use she'll be fast enough to double the main target (Endgame with its Hel+Jormungandr Dark Mages).

The plot promotion is also not as bad as people make it out to be, with scroll stacking she still has solid enough stats where you can get by without promotion. All you're losing is an easy staff rank (grind it yourself if you're in no rush) and the ability to use Wind (Thunder gets the job done most of the time).

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2 hours ago, X-Naut said:

99% Hit is still hitting 99 times out of 100, a Wrath crit is gonna OHKO just about any non-boss enemy, and you're not going through all 60 uses in one chapter. If you tank ten enemies at most there's still a 90% chance of success. You won't trust her enough to use it much pre-promotion anyway, and by the point in the game where you double down on its use she'll be fast enough to double the main target (Endgame with its Hel+Jormungandr Dark Mages).

And that makes it okay to dismiss the 1% chance that the wheels just come crashing off the bus? Really now? Because personally, I see needing to actively rely on luck as a bad position to be in...

2 hours ago, X-Naut said:

The plot promotion is also not as bad as people make it out to be, with scroll stacking she still has solid enough stats where you can get by without promotion. All you're losing is an easy staff rank (grind it yourself if you're in no rush) and the ability to use Wind (Thunder gets the job done most of the time).

I still think it's stupid, inexcusable, and stupidly inexcusable. I already think plot based promotions are the devil, and this is not helping their case whatsoever.

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5 hours ago, Shrimperor said:

considering i am running out of Knight Proofs to use, i don't think saddled is the right word here.

I am doing my first Run of T776 atm, and what's more annoying is Leif's Promo... 

I am at ch17a atm and he has been Lvl 20 since ch10 now....

To be fair, if you gave Leif a few scrolls he'll be strong enough that you don't have to babysit him in the chapters leading up to his promotion. I remember putting him in a choke point in chapter 18 and while he didn't do a lot of damage he easily held his own and kept the armor units busy.

And after he promotes he'll get a lot of exp from killing enemies so getting him back up to Lv. 20 isn't that difficult either.

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6 hours ago, Levant Mir Celestia said:

And that makes it okay to dismiss the 1% chance that the wheels just come crashing off the bus? Really now? Because personally, I see needing to actively rely on luck as a bad position to be in...

I still think it's stupid, inexcusable, and stupidly inexcusable. I already think plot based promotions are the devil, and this is not helping their case whatsoever.

So what are you saying? That if a character has a 1% chance of missing, they're immediately useless? If that's the case, I don't know why you're even playing the Fire Emblem series, as outside of Heroes, the rng is a central part of the game design in every game.

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8 hours ago, Levant Mir Celestia said:

And that makes it okay to dismiss the 1% chance that the wheels just come crashing off the bus? Really now? Because personally, I see needing to actively rely on luck as a bad position to be in...

Well, if I need to take the bus to get somewhere and walking is insufferably slow... sure I could always take a different bus or mode of transportation, but it's not like those aren't without risk!

Stop giving so much weight to very slim chances, they're annoying but they don't render the game unplayable.

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6 hours ago, Jotari said:

So what are you saying? That if a character has a 1% chance of missing, they're immediately useless? If that's the case, I don't know why you're even playing the Fire Emblem series, as outside of Heroes, the rng is a central part of the game design in every game.

Could you please not put words in my mouth?! I was saying that I can't treat it as foolproof since in the event the RNG feels like giving me the middle finger, I'm suddenly in a terrible position. Jeez, do I have to spell everything out for you?

3 hours ago, X-Naut said:

Well, if I need to take the bus to get somewhere and walking is insufferably slow... sure I could always take a different bus or mode of transportation, but it's not like those aren't without risk!

Stop giving so much weight to very slim chances, they're annoying but they don't render the game unplayable.

Apples and oranges, bud. There's a huge difference between what you're bringing up and what I'm riled up about, as far as I'm concerned.

It might not render the game unplayable on its own, but as far as I'm concerned, it sure as hell does not help. Especially when there's other design elements that are enough for me to brand Thracia unplayable.

Edited by Levant Mir Celestia
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Personally, I'm not that big bothered by the 1-99 RNG range. Yes, it would perhaps be better if it included the 0 and 100, but honestly? 1% isn't that big. Plenty of things we do in life have failure rates higher than 1%. Real Life gives us the middle finger practically all the time; and while some do reconsider, many others just accept it and go on. I'd say, if it doesn't stop us IRL, it ain't stopping me in a video game.

But, well, that's just my opinion...

Edited by Acacia Sgt
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1 hour ago, Acacia Sgt said:

1% isn't that big.

Tbh, playing right now, i wish.

While i don'T remember ever getting hit by 1, i missed too many 99s for it to be a 99%. 

The game could use to be alot less rng dependant tbh.

Edited by Shrimperor
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2 hours ago, Levant Mir Celestia said:

Could you please not put words in my mouth?! I was saying that I can't treat it as foolproof since in the event the RNG feels like giving me the middle finger, I'm suddenly in a terrible position. Jeez, do I have to spell everything out for you?

So what are you saying? That the 0-99% hit rate shouldn't be a thing? Yeah, I agree, I'm sure almost everyone agrees, it's what X-Naut originally stated. It doesn't stop Linoan using Nosferatu from being great though.

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4 minutes ago, Shrimperor said:

Tbh, playing right now, i wish.

While i don'T remember ever getting hit by 1, i missed too many 99s for it to be a 99%. 

The game could use to be alot less rng dependant tbh.

Well, I think the way the the system generates numbers could also be a factor. Perhaps not in Thraccia, but I think in some other cases the system is coded to skew over certain numbers in certain situations.

Maybe not FE, but I once found a very annoying case while playing a SRW game. Unlike FE, you can soft reset there to reset the RNG. But at one time I had a 97% Hit attack (or 99%, I think), that no matter how many times I soft reset, it would miss. It made me think that for that one case, the RNG wasn't resetting deliberately, or I simply had the unluckiest of luck for a 97% (or 99%) to keep missing even when a different RN was created. It happens. In the end, I simply did another action instead of attacking.

Don't know if FE actually pulls that sort of thing, though.

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9 minutes ago, Shrimperor said:

I know that FE4 pulls that. Also GBAFE kinda does? While Echoes doesn't afaik

Not the not resetting part, the creating specific numbers one, if that's what you mean. Though it's likely that it doesn't, since it creates them up in advance for most games, if I remember correctly.

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1 hour ago, Acacia Sgt said:

Not the not resetting part, the creating specific numbers one, if that's what you mean. Though it's likely that it doesn't, since it creates them up in advance for most games, if I remember correctly.

Apparently FE4 actually has a completely predetermined rng system, as in, if from the very first turn of the game, you perform the exact same actions, you'll always get the exact same results on every playthrough. At least, I believe I heard that somewhere.

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Well, since i just finished it last Night myself, here's what i would want:

  • Obvious UI/quality of Life changes with the prep. Screen. Especially positioning.
  • More Characterization for side Characters. More Interaction between Party Members that aren't Leif. a CBA-Support or Base Convos could help there.
  • The 6 Month Time skip betwen Ch19 and 20 felt pretty weird. Add something inbetween. Maybe even a small Gaiden chapter with FE4 cast?
  • Staves: *insert Nerf here* While it was fun to play around with unlimited Range warps and stuff, it's quite op. Also, Unlimited Range + Unlimited Turn staves was ugh... Not only does the restore staff come pretty late into the game, it's pretty abuseable too (and did i abuse it whenever i got poisoned). While one of my favourite Chapters (Ch.19) was built around the unlimted Range thing (Warping & ReWarping 24/7), this can be balanced some other way for sure. Also, do away with Staves that can affect allies missing. Status Staves can still miss though.
  • XAVIER. Seriously, Ch18 is one of the worst FE chapters ever because of that guy. Make it so he can be recruited if all civilians and Soldiers survive the chapter.
  • Dismounting is cool. Sword-Lock isn't. Even if it gave me my super Magical Myrmidon Karin. It was especially annoying because i couldn't use Lances inside at all (since after several hours of retrying i just gave up on Xavier). Making em locked to their highest Weapon Rank could Work. Or Make em Swordlocked only when they are a Class that gets Swords on Promo.
  • Hit 1 - 99. AWAY WITH IT. Freaking missing 99s that should've been 175 or something <.<
  • Variable Caps depending on Class and Character instead of uniformal 20.
  • Same turn reinforcements: While usually done well (unlike other games *cough*FE6*cough*FE12*cough*), some instances were super offensive. Ch11x with Fred and Olwen (and her survival being entirely RNG dependant), Ch17a Same turn Sleep Saias (i expected the Authority increase, the game did warn about Genius tactician after all, but not same turn sleep) and Ch23 Random Reinforcements spawning all around the map (That one was especially triggering). In general, reduce the amount of reinforcements, too (The game has reinforcements sometimes spawning for like 30 turns, which then i abused of course (even if i already cleared the map in Turn 10 and just have to seize/escape), if the game is being mean to me, so am i gonna be to it).
  • Speaking about Ch17a Saias.... The game should tell me in some way he isn't defeatable or captureable. First thing i tried after he put one of my units to sleep was Warp a Flier -> Capture (since he has no Weapons) -> Canto Out of Ballista Range/Rescue.... Only for him to be not captureable, or even defeatable.
  • Promotions aside from Sages (which was an op promotion btw) and Hero/Swordmaster (they gain Stats, Skill and new weapon type), didn't really feel like Promotion at all. Make em feel like one (for example, Bow Knights could get Sword on Promo, while Lance/Axe Knights could go the RD way and gain Bows/Swords respectively. Sword Knights don't need it since they have the Advantage of not getting punished as much indoors. Pegasi could be Lance only -> Staves on Promo (like FE4/14), while Drago Knights Axe -> Lance on Promo to differentiate between em).
  • One of my biggest Gripes with the game is how alot of bonus items, and in some Cases units/Skills only appearing after a certain turn count: For example, you only get Astra if you wait until Turn 11 in that one chapter, and Nihil when you wait unitl turn 20 so you can steal it from Conmore. It felt like the game was punishing me for playing efficiently. There are alot of that in the game, and alot of examples where i just have to press wait alot for civilians or to wait for a bridge etc... That needs to get changed imo.
  • Just a minor nitpick, but make Saias viable. There is no reason at all to choose him instead of the most op FE unit in existence. +6 hit/avo are not enough of a replacement to Forseti.

 

On an off-topic Side note: playing FE5 made me dislike GBAFE even more. Just... why? Why did they remove so much FE5->FE6 instead of fixing the cool (but imo not well implemented) ideas and expanding upon them? It's like FE6 tried to retain every frustrating thing FE5 had and make it worse, while removing all the cool stuff....

Edited by Shrimperor
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4 hours ago, Shrimperor said:

On an off-topic Side note: playing FE5 made me dislike GBAFE even more. Just... why? Why did they remove so much FE5->FE6 instead of fixing the cool (but imo not well implemented) ideas and expanding upon them? It's like FE6 tried to retain every frustrating thing FE5 had and make it worse, while removing all the cool stuff....

FE6 was deliberately simple. It was made as a quick, bite-sized Fire Emblem, and it's essentially a retelling of Marth's story, so they followed the flow of those games as closely as they could.

Also the GBA was a bit weaker than the SNES, so it honestly couldn't handle a lot of what the SNES could, which is why even the games that weren't trying to ape the Archanea games were still very simple compared to FE5. Also games not made by Kaga or with any of his input. FE9 is a lot closer to a "true" follow up to FE5, and it was made using Kaga's plans before he left.

Edited by Slumber
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14 minutes ago, Slumber said:

FE6 was deliberately simple. It was made as a quick, bite-sized Fire Emblem, and it's essentially a retelling of Marth's story, so they followed the flow of those games as closely as they could.

Also the GBA was a bit weaker than the SNES, so it honestly couldn't handle a lot of what the SNES could, which is why even the games that weren't trying to ape the Archanea games were still very simple compared to FE5. Also games not made by Kaga or with any of his input. FE9 is a lot closer to a "true" follow up to FE5, and it was made using Kaga's plans before he left.

I read this once on reddit but it's actually true? I mean it would explain why I like Jugdral and Tellius the most so it certainly wouldn't surprise me that Tellius had some of that Kaga touch in there.

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1 minute ago, Hekselka said:

I read this once on reddit but it's actually true? I mean it would explain why I like Jugdral and Tellius the most so it certainly wouldn't surprise me that Tellius had some of that Kaga touch in there.

It could be bullshit for all I know, but I sure remember seeing it in some interview somewhere.

Finding out details about the development of FE games is so damn hard, so I guess take that statement with a grain of salt until somebody who knows where to look can confirm.

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36 minutes ago, Slumber said:

It could be bullshit for all I know, but I sure remember seeing it in some interview somewhere.

Finding out details about the development of FE games is so damn hard, so I guess take that statement with a grain of salt until somebody who knows where to look can confirm.

It does sound about right though, looking at the laguz playing similar to how manketes did in mystery of the emblem it does potentially point to kaga influence, there is also the reintroduction of authority stars. That may explain why the kaga era mechanics interested me as much as they do.

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10 hours ago, Shrimperor said:

Well, since i just finished it last Night myself, here's what i would want:

  • Obvious UI/quality of Life changes with the prep. Screen. Especially positioning.
  • More Characterization for side Characters. More Interaction between Party Members that aren't Leif. a CBA-Support or Base Convos could help there.
  • The 6 Month Time skip betwen Ch19 and 20 felt pretty weird. Add something inbetween. Maybe even a small Gaiden chapter with FE4 cast?
  • Staves: *insert Nerf here* While it was fun to play around with unlimited Range warps and stuff, it's quite op. Also, Unlimited Range + Unlimited Turn staves was ugh... Not only does the restore staff come pretty late into the game, it's pretty abuseable too (and did i abuse it whenever i got poisoned). While one of my favourite Chapters (Ch.19) was built around the unlimted Range thing (Warping & ReWarping 24/7), this can be balanced some other way for sure. Also, do away with Staves that can affect allies missing. Status Staves can still miss though.
  • XAVIER. Seriously, Ch18 is one of the worst FE chapters ever because of that guy. Make it so he can be recruited if all civilians and Soldiers survive the chapter.
  • Dismounting is cool. Sword-Lock isn't. Even if it gave me my super Magical Myrmidon Karin. It was especially annoying because i couldn't use Lances inside at all (since after several hours of retrying i just gave up on Xavier). Making em locked to their highest Weapon Rank could Work. Or Make em Swordlocked only when they are a Class that gets Swords on Promo.
  • Hit 1 - 99. AWAY WITH IT. Freaking missing 99s that should've been 175 or something <.<
  • Variable Caps depending on Class and Character instead of uniformal 20.
  • Same turn reinforcements: While usually done well (unlike other games *cough*FE6*cough*FE12*cough*), some instances were super offensive. Ch11x with Fred and Olwen (and her survival being entirely RNG dependant), Ch17a Same turn Sleep Saias (i expected the Authority increase, the game did warn about Genius tactician after all, but not same turn sleep) and Ch23 Random Reinforcements spawning all around the map (That one was especially triggering). In general, reduce the amount of reinforcements, too (The game has reinforcements sometimes spawning for like 30 turns, which then i abused of course (even if i already cleared the map in Turn 10 and just have to seize/escape), if the game is being mean to me, so am i gonna be to it).
  • Speaking about Ch17a Saias.... The game should tell me in some way he isn't defeatable or captureable. First thing i tried after he put one of my units to sleep was Warp a Flier -> Capture (since he has no Weapons) -> Canto Out of Ballista Range/Rescue.... Only for him to be not captureable, or even defeatable.
  • Promotions aside from Sages (which was an op promotion btw) and Hero/Swordmaster (they gain Stats, Skill and new weapon type), didn't really feel like Promotion at all. Make em feel like one (for example, Bow Knights could get Sword on Promo, while Lance/Axe Knights could go the RD way and gain Bows/Swords respectively. Sword Knights don't need it since they have the Advantage of not getting punished as much indoors. Pegasi could be Lance only -> Staves on Promo (like FE4/14), while Drago Knights Axe -> Lance on Promo to differentiate between em).
  • One of my biggest Gripes with the game is how alot of bonus items, and in some Cases units/Skills only appearing after a certain turn count: For example, you only get Astra if you wait until Turn 11 in that one chapter, and Nihil when you wait unitl turn 20 so you can steal it from Conmore. It felt like the game was punishing me for playing efficiently. There are alot of that in the game, and alot of examples where i just have to press wait alot for civilians or to wait for a bridge etc... That needs to get changed imo.
  • Just a minor nitpick, but make Saias viable. There is no reason at all to choose him instead of the most op FE unit in existence. +6 hit/avo are not enough of a replacement to Forseti.

 

On an off-topic Side note: playing FE5 made me dislike GBAFE even more. Just... why? Why did they remove so much FE5->FE6 instead of fixing the cool (but imo not well implemented) ideas and expanding upon them? It's like FE6 tried to retain every frustrating thing FE5 had and make it worse, while removing all the cool stuff....

Funnily enough, I'm pretty sure status staves can't miss in Thracia.

6 hours ago, Slumber said:

FE6 was deliberately simple. It was made as a quick, bite-sized Fire Emblem, and it's essentially a retelling of Marth's story, so they followed the flow of those games as closely as they could.

Also the GBA was a bit weaker than the SNES, so it honestly couldn't handle a lot of what the SNES could, which is why even the games that weren't trying to ape the Archanea games were still very simple compared to FE5. Also games not made by Kaga or with any of his input. FE9 is a lot closer to a "true" follow up to FE5, and it was made using Kaga's plans before he left.

The GBA was more powerful than the SNES. Gameboy Advance was a 32 bit console, Super Nintendo was only 16 bit. That's why there's loads of gameboy Games that are ports of SNES games with extra content (A Link to the Past even managed to fit a whole second multiplayer game onto it's Gameboy Advance cartridge). SNES did have better sound than the Gameboy Advance though, due to that super magical sound chip that was a big deal back then.

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2 hours ago, Jotari said:

The GBA was more powerful than the SNES. Gameboy Advance was a 32 bit console, Super Nintendo was only 16 bit. That's why there's loads of gameboy Games that are ports of SNES games with extra content (A Link to the Past even managed to fit a whole second multiplayer game onto it's Gameboy Advance cartridge). SNES did have better sound than the Gameboy Advance though, due to that super magical sound chip that was a big deal back then.

This always slips my mind, and I always fuck that up. I need a sticky note by my keyboard at this point that just says "GBA is actually stronger". 

Everything else stands true, though. It was a deliberate effort to make a simplified, bite-sized FE. 

Edited by Slumber
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Clearly seperate Cain from Cain.

Just, give more insentive to use certain characters.

Specifically Hicks and all of the Cav squad with selfina. They join after you have Finn and Brighton, and dont have any skills, or movement stars. (Except for Robert) I like the designs of all of these characters and just really hope they would get more going for them, also, I would give more reason for Halvans use as well.

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  • 3 weeks later...

To be honest, I wouldn't change that much. A lot of the 'unfair' stuff is what I think makes the game great, and I'd really like to see more modern games pull that kind of thing more often.

 

Pretty much the only changes I would make would be enable unit repositioning at the beginning of chapters (I do like some of the wonky situations that you would end up in due to not being able to do that, but for a remake I would still change it), tell you explicitly what the scrolls do, and maybe make the stats not all cap at 20 (but of course buff a lot of the later enemies to counteract this).

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Dismounting sucks a lot, one obvious solution (as mentioned) is removing the weapon lock. I think Radiant Dawn may have solved the problem, though - giving a movement penalty to mounted units. Maybe also disable canto indoors and make it impossible to fly over indoor walls. Of course, this would come at a cost - re-working maps so that the enemy also has mounted/flying units indoors.

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On 5/25/2018 at 12:32 AM, Galap said:

To be honest, I wouldn't change that much. A lot of the 'unfair' stuff is what I think makes the game great, and I'd really like to see more modern games pull that kind of thing more often.

 

Pretty much the only changes I would make would be enable unit repositioning at the beginning of chapters (I do like some of the wonky situations that you would end up in due to not being able to do that, but for a remake I would still change it), tell you explicitly what the scrolls do, and maybe make the stats not all cap at 20 (but of course buff a lot of the later enemies to counteract this).

I would disagree - the unfair stuff single-handedly makes me consider Thracia bottom of the barrel. I don't want to feel that what makes the game "challenging" in actuality just makes it frustrating - ergo, hard for all the wrong reasons, which Thracia is. If I may be frank, there's no way that IS could get away with preserving obvious design flaws - standards are higher nowadays.

Edited by Levant Mir Celestia
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A lot of people have mentioned removing staff misses for healing staves but tbh they should just remove being able to miss for all the staves, including the status staves. Staff users already have the condition that they have to have higher magic than the one they're using the status staff on. Also, staff uses don't get decreased when you miss, so the enemy can just target you on the next turn anyway.

Edited by Mechanguis
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