Just a grumbling female player...

[Ice Dragon]

2 hours ago, Baldrick said:

The tier list puts Forrin at S and Morrin at A-. Low rarity isn't even intrinsically bad, it gives you more opportunity for merges. And more chance to actually pull the character in question if you're a casual.

After Steady Breath and before the weapon refinery, female Corrin was ranked at A and male Corrin at A- or B+ (before A- existed). Before that, female Corrin was in B+ with male Corrin.

The weapon refinery bumped female Corrin all the way up to S.

 

1 hour ago, Johann said:

Because this is fiction, the writers and character designers can literally do anything imaginable, but instead go for cliches, cop-outs, and other poor creative choices (and hell, this is without even getting into things like race and LGBTQ representation).

I honestly would like to see someone do 500 characters' worth of designs (both physical design and personality) without using any of these so-called "poor creative choices" you're mentioning, but don't really substantiate.

 

1 hour ago, Johann said:

as are the idea that a given class should be entirely (or predominantly) one gender.

There's this thing called world-building and this other thing called being minimally believable within the setting.

In this world, pegasi aren't particularly fond of men, but are the predominant flying mount. This results in the vast majority of flying units being female.

In this world, axes are enormous (historical axes are much smaller, about the same head size as the axes you find in the hand tools section of the hardware store), requiring immense strength to swing without the aid of a mount (because in reality, you can simply hold a weapon out as you ride and let the momentum do the damage). Thus only the most muscular of humans are able to use them on foot, and lo and behold, being male happens to predispose you to build more muscle.

Lightly armored spearmen are historically your rank and file soldiers because armor is expensive and spears have a shallow learning curve and have a natural advantage over swords due to their length. Because most Fire Emblem games have you leading a small military force headed by a noble or royalty, you shouldn't have many rank and file soldiers in your army. Thus, it makes sense why the villagers of Gaiden and Echoes (they're villagers and you're a militia), Amelia in Sacred Stones (she's a new recruit who defects), and Nephenee in Tellius (she's a villager and you're a mercenary band) are pretty much the few lance infantry units in the series. (Naginatas don't count because the use of a naginata is as much a martial art as the use of a sword.)

[Nenechan]

5 hours ago, Baldrick said:

That's 4/6 for female armour knights (missing Meg and Kjelle) and 7/26 for male armour knights. (missing Roger, Dolph, Macellan, Lawrence, Horace, Hannibal, Dalshin, Xavier, Bors, Barth, Douglas, Oswin, Wallace, Gilliam, Gatrie, Brom, Tauroneo, Ignatius, Benny). I don't think you'd argue that Heroes is skewing the balance towards females, and rightly so.

 

4 hours ago, Ice Dragon said:

I'm also utterly appalled at the fact that you forgot Valbar, the man with the manliest of manly chins.

 

 

Sorry, I just had to register to submit Kellem - that most invisible and overlooked of male armour knights!!!!!  I'll get back to lurking.

[Baldrick]

1 minute ago, Nenechan said:

 

 

Sorry, I just had to register to submit Kellem - that most invisible and overlooked of male armour knights!!!!!  I'll get back to lurking.

 

Who are you talking about?

[Ice Dragon]

4 minutes ago, Nenechan said:

Sorry, I just had to register to submit Kellem - that most invisible and overlooked of male armour knights!!!!!  I'll get back to lurking.

1 minute ago, Baldrick said:

Who are you talking about?

Kellam has been in the game since launch. Didn't you both know?

[Cute Chao]

47 minutes ago, Ice Dragon said:

Kellam has been in the game since launch. Didn't you both know?

Honestly, I really wish they would just add in a 1* Kellam without ceremony on April Fool's. I know it's not really celebrated in Japan, but some Japanese games I've played have been aware of it... this would just be perfect imo xD

[Usana]

Heh, a 1*Kellam would be awesome. Particularly if one just appeared in everyone's barracks without any kind of message or notification. Imagine scrolling through your barracks one day and seeing him just sitting there like he was always there. His dialogue could be "What do you mean, where did I come from? I've been here the whole time."

Edited January 30, 2018 by Usana

[Kuroi Tsubasa Tenshi]

To drive the point home that he's always been around, he shows up with 1000 SP, all of his (currently available) skills learned and 499 HM.

[Johann]

9 hours ago, Ice Dragon said:

I honestly would like to see someone do 500 characters' worth of designs (both physical design and personality) without using any of these so-called "poor creative choices" you're mentioning, but don't really substantiate.

The hundreds of FE characters that exist have been created by a large variety of people. Individual characters are ultimately made from the works of several people; the artists, writers, voice actors, etc. Some of these poor creative choices could be attributed to a specific person's work. For instance, while I haven't played Fates, I have heard that the main story and support conversations were written by different people, and that many people find characters like Xander in the story to be flat out terrible, yet their support conversations are captivating.

Creating a character in a new game who is barely distinguishable from a character in an old game is a lazy cop-out. How many younger sister healers, generic boisterous axe guys, pegasus rider sisters, hot-headed red and laid-back green cavaliers do we need? When you consider core identity design choices like ethnicity or sexual orientation, both of which are barely explored in FE, you realize the writers have endless ways they could create new characters. While there are some stand-out characters with excellent designs and writing, we routinely get anime cliches and two-dimensional gimmick characters. It's a character driven series, they should be trying harder.

9 hours ago, Ice Dragon said:

There's this thing called world-building and this other thing called being minimally believable within the setting.

In this world, pegasi aren't particularly fond of men, but are the predominant flying mount. This results in the vast majority of flying units being female.

In this world, axes are enormous (historical axes are much smaller, about the same head size as the axes you find in the hand tools section of the hardware store), requiring immense strength to swing without the aid of a mount (because in reality, you can simply hold a weapon out as you ride and let the momentum do the damage). Thus only the most muscular of humans are able to use them on foot, and lo and behold, being male happens to predispose you to build more muscle.

Lightly armored spearmen are historically your rank and file soldiers because armor is expensive and spears have a shallow learning curve and have a natural advantage over swords due to their length. Because most Fire Emblem games have you leading a small military force headed by a noble or royalty, you shouldn't have many rank and file soldiers in your army. Thus, it makes sense why the villagers of Gaiden and Echoes (they're villagers and you're a militia), Amelia in Sacred Stones (she's a new recruit who defects), and Nephenee in Tellius (she's a villager and you're a mercenary band) are pretty much the few lance infantry units in the series. (Naginatas don't count because the use of a naginata is as much a martial art as the use of a sword.)

[Ice Dragon]

26 minutes ago, Johann said:

When you consider core identity design choices like ethnicity or sexual orientation, both of which are barely explored in FE, you realize the writers have endless ways they could create new characters.

You live in the States according to your profile. You should know just how damned touchy of subjects those are here in the current climate and the fact that bringing those subjects up results in a lot of unnecessary attention.

Pulling exactly the right strings is not something that should be entrusted to a localization team. That's something that should be done by writers who are well-versed in the climate of their intended and unintended audience.

 

27 minutes ago, Johann said:

-video-

I'm not watching a video unless your argument requires moving visuals. Write your own argument and refer to the video as reference material.

[Sunsurge]

49 minutes ago, Johann said:

For instance, while I haven't played Fates, I have heard that the main story and support conversations were written by different people, and that many people find characters like Xander in the story to be flat out terrible, yet their support conversations are captivating.

When you consider core identity design choices like ethnicity or sexual orientation, both of which are barely explored in FE, you realize the writers have endless ways they could create new characters. While there are some stand-out characters with excellent designs and writing, we routinely get anime cliches and two-dimensional gimmick characters. 

I COMPLETELY agree, there's so many better combinations. Sure some are destined to be repeated every once in a while based on having SO MANY characters, but there's so much more they could do with it. Even with standard characters (what they do now) there's more variations. And I would love if they tacked on both ethnicity (outside of shapeshifter) and sexual orientation to their writing.

And yeah, Fates was a mess. Some of the support conversations painted characters in completely different (and better lights) than it did during the main story which was just an actual mess.

[Charmeleonbrah]

On ‎1‎/‎29‎/‎2018 at 1:14 PM, SoulWeaver said:

…eh, I play Conception 2, so I can't say much. I will admit I'm mostly on board with your last point there, but I'd drop the sister part because that just feels strange to think about.

What about the upper arms? Those can be pretty sexy too if done tastefully.

Upper arms can be quite good as you say, but the proportions in this game are strange to say the least...most of the female characters have pencil necks and Marfan's Syndrome arms.  

[Johann]

52 minutes ago, Ice Dragon said:

You live in the States according to your profile. You should know just how damned touchy of subjects those are here in the current climate and the fact that bringing those subjects up results in a lot of unnecessary attention.

Pulling exactly the right strings is not something that should be entrusted to a localization team. That's something that should be done by writers who are well-versed in the climate of their intended and unintended audience.

Are you saying they should just stick to straight white characters and classic gender roles to avoid controversy, and that localization teams should just do direct translations and nothing more? Please clarify if I misinterpreted.

Nintendo has been growing more inclusive with representations of people of color and presenting LGBTQ options/characters, haters be damned. The positives outweigh the negatives, too; people complaining about the games for being more inclusive are just a loud, hateful minority, and the buzz generated by controversy over a positive creative choice is very much a good thing. Also, the localization team is part of the creative process as much as the original creators. If something is awful in the original version, they definitely should change it.

52 minutes ago, Ice Dragon said:

I'm not watching a video unless your argument requires moving visuals. Write your own argument and refer to the video as reference material.

The video woulda said it better than I could, but here goes: A Thermian Argument is where in-universe rationale is used to defend against a criticism about the rules of said universe. You mention pegasi being not fond of men as why the pegasus riders are predominately female. This notion was made up by the creators; it's fiction, the creators can do literally anything with pegasi or anything else in the FE universe, even change their own rules. What matters is the implications and impact of those creative choices.

In another FE example, saying "she's 1000 years old" to defend Nowi being a marriage candidate and in skimpy clothes doesn't change the fact that she looks, acts, and talks like a real world child. Anyway, I think you ought to watch the video because I genuinely think you'd enjoy the points he makes.

[Sunwoo]

1 hour ago, Ice Dragon said:

You live in the States according to your profile. You should know just how damned touchy of subjects those are here in the current climate and the fact that bringing those subjects up results in a lot of unnecessary attention.

This is honestly really bad reasoning. By this logic, people should just never deal with touchy subjects because it brings up unnecessary attention ... which basically implies that we should give a pass to questionable things because fighting against it will bring unnecessary attention.

[eclipse]

3 minutes ago, Johann said:

Nintendo has been growing more inclusive with representations of people of color and presenting LGBTQ options/characters, haters be damned. The positives outweigh the negatives, too; people complaining about the games for being more inclusive are just a loud, hateful minority, and the buzz generated by controversy over a positive creative choice is very much a good thing. Also, the localization team is part of the creative process as much as the original creators. If something is awful in the original version, they definitely should change it.

That's quite the generalization there!

America is a big place, with many different opinions.  If I learned one thing over the past couple of years, demonizing the other side leads to heels being dug in - the exact opposite of change.  Maybe the "values" group won't play FE for who-knows-what reason (ranging from "vidya games are evil" to "I can't spell 3DS" to "this isn't my idea of fun").  But labeling them a "loud, hafeul minority" won't change their minds.

[Johann]

16 minutes ago, eclipse said:

That's quite the generalization there!

America is a big place, with many different opinions.  If I learned one thing over the past couple of years, demonizing the other side leads to heels being dug in - the exact opposite of change.  Maybe the "values" group won't play FE for who-knows-what reason (ranging from "vidya games are evil" to "I can't spell 3DS" to "this isn't my idea of fun").  But labeling them a "loud, hafeul minority" won't change their minds.

If someone is outright racist, sexist, or homophobic in their complaint about a game or movie or whatever, how is that not loud and hateful? My point is that Nintendo and other creators shouldn't be afraid of that kind of reception. Creating more and more content with positive depictions of underrepresented people also helps combat prejudices.

[a bear]

12 hours ago, Ice Dragon said:

There's this thing called world-building and this other thing called being minimally believable within the setting.

Do you feel obligated to defend unremarkable decisions made by creators you've never met?

[eclipse]

1 minute ago, Johann said:

If someone is outright racist, sexist, or homophobic in their complaint about a game or movie or whatever, how is that not loud and hateful? My point is that Nintendo and other creators shouldn't be afraid of that kind of reception. Creating more and more content with positive depictions of underrepresented people also helps combat prejudices.

I'm not too happy with including LGBTQ for the sake of including LGBTQ.  That's because I want a character who happens to be that, not someone who's genderbent just to check a box (see: Angelica in Trails of Cold Steel, who still manages to have some cool moments).  Does that make me loud and hateful?

Social issues aren't straightforward.  I'm sure there's people who are what you describe - but I'm also positive that there's people who don't want those issues shoved into a video game for other reasons.  Thus, labeling the opposition as "loud and hateful" with the excuse of "outright racist, sexist, or homophobic" is pretty lazy IMO.

[a bear]

16 minutes ago, eclipse said:

I'm not too happy with including LGBTQ for the sake of including LGBTQ.  That's because I want a character who happens to be that, not someone who's genderbent just to check a box (see: Angelica in Trails of Cold Steel, who still manages to have some cool moments).  Does that make me loud and hateful?

I'm not seeing how the two things you're describing are functionally different. Gray and Boey are now dark-skinned and Leon is now gay. Are those examples of checking off boxes to placate people, or are they just design decisions for the sake of variety? Is Nintendo stirring the pot with social commentary, or is it telling a tale of kingdoms and dragons?

[Ice Dragon]

7 minutes ago, Johann said:

Are you saying they should just stick to straight white characters and classic gender roles to avoid controversy, and that localization teams should just do direct translations and nothing more? Please clarify if I misinterpreted.

I think you misinterpreted somewhat.

Problems don't arise from having a not-white, not-straight character exist. The problems arise when they draw unnecessary attention to the fact that they're not white or not straight and when it significantly colors their actions or interactions. Basically, you can write characters that are not white or not straight, but you have to tread very carefully when doing so (unless, of course, that's literally the point you're trying to make).

In terms of race, at the very least, there's a good reason why fantasy settings don't use real-world human races when they need to actually bring attention to the subject. Someone who is black will simply be seen as "someone who is black" and not "someone who is different" in a more generic way. This is why we have the Laguz, dragons, and other were-beasts. You can identify the message that is being conveyed about race without singling out a specific real-world race to do so.

As for the second point, I believe that it is better to write a character to be inoffensive to begin with than to force a localization team to rework the character for a different social climate.

In the end, the point is that you shouldn't try to draw fire towards yourself unless it's your goal to do so and you have done your homework and fully prepared yourself to do it well.

 

38 minutes ago, Johann said:

A Thermian Argument is where in-universe rationale is used to defend against a criticism about the rules of said universe.

The problem is that once the world you have built is well established, an already established in-universe rationale is a valid argument to use. While the world is fiction, a properly built world lives on its own in the minds of its audience, and changes to the rules of the world are jarring to those already familiar with the world.

I still have difficulty wrapping my head around the fact that Subaki is a male pegasus knight. It simply doesn't make sense to me because it contradicts everything I know about pegasi in the Fire Emblem universe. That's the sort of thing that happens when you start messing with already established rules.

 

1 hour ago, Johann said:

Anyway, I think you ought to watch the video because I genuinely think you'd enjoy the points he makes.

I'm at work right now, which is one reason I don't want to watch videos. I also simply don't like taking in information at someone else's pace instead of at my own pace.

I'll watch it sometime later maybe. I'm rather busy tonight.

 

1 minute ago, a bear said:

Do you feel obligated to defend unremarkable decisions made by creators you've never met?

I feel obligated to be the devil's advocate when I see a positive feedback loop forming and when I feel people are being unfairly critical.

I also happen to like to debate. It keeps my writing and research skills sharp and lets me get a glimpse into others' souls minds.

[eclipse]

Just now, a bear said:

I'm not seeing how the two things you're describing are functionally different. Gray and Boey are now dark-skinned and Leon is now gay. Are those examples of checking off boxes to placate people, or are they just design decisions for the sake of variety? Is Nintendo stirring the pot with social commentary, or is it telling a tale of kingdoms and dragons?

Actually, they are.

Both Gray and Boey's skin color aren't their defining factors

Leon's character revolves around his orientation.  It's exactly what I don't want to see.

Hell, why not choose a character that's both - Niles.  No one says anything about his skin color, and he's defined by being a sadistic bastard/former thief.  That's something I don't mind - him marrying male Corrin is merely one of many paths he could take.  It would've been cool if he could've flirted a bit with the other guys, but Fates is pretty light on the same-sex supports!

[IEatLasers]

Hey wait why’d your sex matter??

[edgelordweeaboo]

On 1/28/2018 at 4:48 PM, Glaceon Mage said:

Honestly, the main reason it worries me is it might hurt Wolt's chances whenever a FE6 banner comes along.  I like the FE6 female cast more than the men overall, and there are female characters from FE6 I want in the game (Thea notably), but I really don't want Wolt to be passed over because he lacks boobs.

Not including repeats, my 5*'s are currently ~27 men and 35 women.  

Though, I can't be too mad about Eirika, she's my fourth favorite FE character overall and I happily pulled for her as a horsemage (my favorite class in Heroes).  

wolt will be passed over because he's a terrible unit and pretty much nobody used him as far as i can tell, not because he doesn't have boobs. if they release an FE6 banner they can't make it all female without repeats or using unpopular female characters since most popular female characters from FE6 are already in the game

[a bear]

9 minutes ago, Ice Dragon said:

I still have difficulty wrapping my head around the fact that Subaki is a male pegasus knight. It simply doesn't make sense to me because it contradicts everything I know about pegasi in the Fire Emblem universe. That's the sort of thing that happens when you start messing with already established rules.

See, I love that they're willing to defy classic rules for that exact reaction from older fans. Not for spite, but for the shock.

As an aside, this thread made me conclude that Mia's character would've worked better as a Fighter, especially in relation to her support with Largo and how there hadn't been an unpromoted female Fighter by that point.

20 minutes ago, Ice Dragon said:

I feel obligated to be the devil's advocate when I see a positive feedback loop forming and when I feel people are being unfairly critical.

I also happen to like to debate. It keeps my writing and research skills sharp and lets me get a glimpse into others' souls minds.

 

I'm all for devil's advocate or making sense of the why, but I can't help reading your posts as if you're personally invested in defending IS. Am I wrong? I don't mean for this to be a personal attack or anything either, so I apologize if it comes off that way.

24 minutes ago, eclipse said:

Actually, they are.

Both Gray and Boey's skin color aren't their defining factors

Leon's character revolves around his orientation.  It's exactly what I don't want to see.

Hell, why not choose a character that's both - Niles.  No one says anything about his skin color, and he's defined by being a sadistic bastard/former thief.  That's something I don't mind - him marrying male Corrin is merely one of many paths he could take.  It would've been cool if he could've flirted a bit with the other guys, but Fates is pretty light on the same-sex supports!

See, I always thought Leon's character revolves around his love for Valbar, and whether they're both men or whatever had little bearing on that fact. Essentially he's the same as Faye, which is to say he's underdeveloped as a whole.

Despite that, I think it's interesting to note that Leon shares a similarity to Niles as a sassy gay archer, much in the way that Takumi follows after Innes and Shinon in being a talented asshole archer. Those are examples of character archetypes being done well, I'd say: they share a similar foundation, but are developed uniquely in appearance, relationships, development, foibles, etc. Being female or black or gay or Laguz or whatever only adds to variety. Spice o' life.

[Johann]

1 hour ago, eclipse said:

I'm not too happy with including LGBTQ for the sake of including LGBTQ.  That's because I want a character who happens to be that, not someone who's genderbent just to check a box (see: Angelica in Trails of Cold Steel, who still manages to have some cool moments).  Does that make me loud and hateful?

Social issues aren't straightforward.  I'm sure there's people who are what you describe - but I'm also positive that there's people who don't want those issues shoved into a video game for other reasons.  Thus, labeling the opposition as "loud and hateful" with the excuse of "outright racist, sexist, or homophobic" is pretty lazy IMO.

Ah, I can see why you took my previous post the way you did then. Allow me to clarify: I am thinking more like the "you can't make the main character [insert minority group]!" sort of outright hateful complaint. Have you not seen that kind of reception to movies, shows, games, etc? For instance, when the new Star Wars movies were coming out, there were people who had a lot of vitriol for Finn, one of the main characters, simply because he was black. Creators need to ignore those kinds of people.

An opinion like yours is reasonable, though I'd amend that to say creators should always be exploring tasteful and meaningful ways to implement characters of different backgrounds & identities. Even adding a minor character who is LGBTQ, even if they have little or no plot significance can still be a positive thing, provided their identity is depicted in a positive way. Gaming in general could use better writing, which would improve the representation of all people, really.

53 minutes ago, eclipse said:

Leon's character revolves around his orientation.  It's exactly what I don't want to see.

I agree in the sense that his obsession with Valbar is what defines him, not his homosexuality per se. He should have been written better.

Regarding Gray and Boey; while they have families (which we never see), they are still the only people of color other than, uh who else, Greith? The game's world could be more fleshed out by showing more variety of people, though at least individually Gray and Boey are great characters.

 

58 minutes ago, Ice Dragon said:

I think you misinterpreted somewhat.

Problems don't arise from having a not-white, not-straight character exist. The problems arise when they draw unnecessary attention to the fact that they're not white or not straight and when it significantly colors their actions or interactions. Basically, you can write characters that are not white or not straight, but you have to tread very carefully when doing so (unless, of course, that's literally the point you're trying to make).

In terms of race, at the very least, there's a good reason why fantasy settings don't use real-world human races when they need to actually bring attention to the subject. Someone who is black will simply be seen as "someone who is black" and not "someone who is different" in a more generic way. This is why we have the Laguz, dragons, and other were-beasts. You can identify the message that is being conveyed about race without singling out a specific real-world race to do so.

As for the second point, I believe that it is better to write a character to be inoffensive to begin with than to force a localization team to rework the character for a different social climate.

In the end, the point is that you shouldn't try to draw fire towards yourself unless it's your goal to do so and you have done your homework and fully prepared yourself to do it well.

I think I get what you're saying, in that there's a problem when these characters aren't done tastefully or meaningfully. If that's what you're implying, then I agree, though I think the best course of action isn't for creators to not explore these topics, but rather to better understand people different from them, and even better, hire creators who are these people. This kind of solution helps deal with the localization issues regarding societal differences as well.

58 minutes ago, Ice Dragon said:

The problem is that once the world you have built is well established, an already established in-universe rationale is a valid argument to use. While the world is fiction, a properly built world lives on its own in the minds of its audience, and changes to the rules of the world are jarring to those already familiar with the world.

I still have difficulty wrapping my head around the fact that Subaki is a male pegasus knight. It simply doesn't make sense to me because it contradicts everything I know about pegasi in the Fire Emblem universe. That's the sort of thing that happens when you start messing with already established rules.

It's not a valid argument because the whole thing is fiction. Pegasi don't exist. The rule that they don't let men ride them doesn't exist. Someone just made it up. The only thing enforcing that rule are the whims of the creators. To quote the video, "Criticism of the creative work is ultimately criticism of the decisions that people made when they were putting it together." Changing the rules is bad writing, but then so was establishing that bad rule in the first place.

Edited January 30, 2018 by Johann

[Magical Glace]

22 minutes ago, edgelordweeaboo said:

wolt will be passed over because he's a terrible unit and pretty much nobody used him as far as i can tell, not because he doesn't have boobs. if they release an FE6 banner they can't make it all female without repeats or using unpopular female characters since most popular female characters from FE6 are already in the game

Wendy and Sophia, the two worst units in FE6 and possibly the entire franchise, are in the game.  I don't think viability in their original game has anything to do with who's added.

He has relevance to Roy's character, and he's a bit of a meme for being bad in Japan apparently.  Those are the main reasons for me to hold onto the hope that he'll get in.   But like, if they're going to pass over new men in favor of girls, I can't help but worry that won't be enough.

The game does reference him, Allen, and Lance at one point (Book 1 Chapter 3-1 where Roy is accompanied by an archer and two cavs), so there's that too I guess.