Just a grumbling female player...

[Raven]

1 hour ago, Nowi's Husband said:

I'm glad you can marry Nowi and her design is like that, us lolicons deserve to be catered to just as others are, our money is just as good.  Fictional lolis are a safe outlet for our desires without any real children being hurt.

That goes to say; I'm sure if people were truly fucked up in the head, they would prey on young people regardless of whether or not fictional lolis exist. And those who are into lolis, a vast majority do know where the line between reality and fiction is.

"Let's take this away from those people because I don't like it!" - These people can kindly fuck off.

[Usana]

I agree with Raven's final sentence. A TL;DR wall of text regarding this tangent will be in spoiler. That way folks that aren't interested in this discussion can focus on my final statement of this post more easily.
 

Spoiler

 

But I wish to add that way back in HS I did some fetish research. I was curious what drew people to certain fetishes(I have always had a thing for glasses myself). Anyways I hung around a lot of loli boards/chats/etc for a while(as well as such places for other fetishes). And one fact that stood out is many folk frequenting those places had NO interest in REAL children. Rather than a depiction of real children a loli is more like a caricature of children. Lambasting folks who like Lolis because you find it uncomfortable is just plain bad. I would liken it to bashing gays since that is an obvious way to go. However, lolicon is so many degrees off from Pedophilia that maybe it would be more like what happened to the Jews several times in the past. Where they got the blame for stuff they didn't really have a hand in(such as being blamed for the Black Death). That said just like violent people may like violent video games one can probably assume that loli is close enough for some pedophiles. And frankly animated images is a much better outlet than real children. It isn't like you can change a person's sexuality, so it doesn't make since to block them from a non-harmful outlet. Well I suppose some folks believe you can change a person's sexuality, but I rather have my doubts on that. Plus, it wouldn't surprise me much if at least some such child abusers weren't true pedophiles but rather abusers who are aroused by the abuse rather than the child(children are just much easier prey and more 'forbidden' which makes it even more exciting).

Before throwing blame at lolicons I would like to see hard undeniable evidence that such communities are directly aiding and abetting child predators. Given the extremely hard stance such communities have, or at least had, regarding anything that could potentially or even remotely be connected to real child pornography(you know with actual victims), I wouldn't bet on such evidence being common or large spread. That is another thing I noted. Any fetish that would have rather nasty effects on folks if practiced IRL always had communities that had very firm lines driving into the sand. They do NOT TOLERATE real world abuse of their fetish. Most would be horrified and not at all aroused from real footage of such, simply because there is a tremendous gap between the fantasy and the reality. Kinda like 'rape fantasies'. Some folks can fantasize about being raped, but I don't think I have to tell you that most, if not all, most definitely don't want to be raped for realsies. It is a fantasy. I always worry when folks fantasy bash, that seems to imply that they are the ones that can't distinguish fantasy and reality. Though glad to see that this seems less fantasy bashing and more fantasies have unintended consequences so you should all not do it lecturing. Still disagree, but folks regularly disagree with one another, so no harm there.

 

 

Anyways back on topic. Given that the top guys all had more votes the top gals in the 2nd CYL, that does seem to imply that IS should start providing some more beefcake to go along with all the cheesecake.

 

[EricaofRenais]

1 hour ago, Usana said:

I agree with Raven's final sentence. A TL;DR wall of text regarding this tangent will be in spoiler. That way folks that aren't interested in this discussion can focus on my final statement of this post more easily.
 

  Reveal hidden contents

 

But I wish to add that way back in HS I did some fetish research. I was curious what drew people to certain fetishes(I have always had a thing for glasses myself). Anyways I hung around a lot of loli boards/chats/etc for a while(as well as such places for other fetishes). And one fact that stood out is many folk frequenting those places had NO interest in REAL children. Rather than a depiction of real children a loli is more like a caricature of children. Lambasting folks who like Lolis because you find it uncomfortable is just plain bad. I would liken it to bashing gays since that is an obvious way to go. However, lolicon is so many degrees off from Pedophilia that maybe it would be more like what happened to the Jews several times in the past. Where they got the blame for stuff they didn't really have a hand in(such as being blamed for the Black Death). That said just like violent people may like violent video games one can probably assume that loli is close enough for some pedophiles. And frankly animated images is a much better outlet than real children. It isn't like you can change a person's sexuality, so it doesn't make since to block them from a non-harmful outlet. Well I suppose some folks believe you can change a person's sexuality, but I rather have my doubts on that. Plus, it wouldn't surprise me much if at least some such child abusers weren't true pedophiles but rather abusers who are aroused by the abuse rather than the child(children are just much easier prey and more 'forbidden' which makes it even more exciting).

Before throwing blame at lolicons I would like to see hard undeniable evidence that such communities are directly aiding and abetting child predators. Given the extremely hard stance such communities have, or at least had, regarding anything that could potentially or even remotely be connected to real child pornography(you know with actual victims), I wouldn't bet on such evidence being common or large spread. That is another thing I noted. Any fetish that would have rather nasty effects on folks if practiced IRL always had communities that had very firm lines driving into the sand. They do NOT TOLERATE real world abuse of their fetish. Most would be horrified and not at all aroused from real footage of such, simply because there is a tremendous gap between the fantasy and the reality. Kinda like 'rape fantasies'. Some folks can fantasize about being raped, but I don't think I have to tell you that most, if not all, most definitely don't want to be raped for realsies. It is a fantasy. I always worry when folks fantasy bash, that seems to imply that they are the ones that can't distinguish fantasy and reality. Though glad to see that this seems less fantasy bashing and more fantasies have unintended consequences so you should all not do it lecturing. Still disagree, but folks regularly disagree with one another, so no harm there.

 

 

Anyways back on topic. Given that the top guys all had more votes the top gals in the 2nd CYL, that does seem to imply that IS should start providing some more beefcake to go along with all the cheesecake.

 

I agree with you, my only problem with Nowi is her cloths other then that I don't have a problem with her being in the game at all.  Of course I would be fine with a shota character in FE just to balance out all the lolies.  I am so used to lolies being in some of the manga I like that it does not bother me much.  The sad thing is the lolies on a whole tend to better written then the well endowed woman, and I find that annoying.  

[jameslove001]

On ‎1‎/‎28‎/‎2018 at 3:56 PM, bbqbert said:

I'm not into waifu or husbando culture at all, but I've been playing Fire Emblem since FE6--and there are TONS of characters that I love, particularly males at this point, that are completely irrelevant in Heroes or ignored altogether. And I understand that this is a waifu-culture game. I understand it's a gacha game that just wants to make oodles of dollars off waifu-obsessed folks. But are female players really so nonexistent that they don't even try a little bit?

(And before y'all argue, because I've seen it MANY times before, that they tried to please female players with Bruno, summer Marx, summer Freddy, summer Gaius, Hawkeye and Odin--let's please turn our attention to all of the gorgeous females in this game, the lolis, the number of scantily clad females, and the suggestive ripping of clothes and suggestive poses in MOST of the female injured artwork. Males do not even come close to having remotely the same treatment. Not even exaggerating, the ratio would be roughly 5 suggestive males to 80 suggestive females.)

First (because I like disclosure), I am a male player. But your argument basically summarizes so much of my experience here. The positive side of this is how much power and strength women have in the game. The negative side...is everything you said here. Bunnilla's boobs alone almost made me quit the first time I was playing. It is just so tacky and in your face. I also appreciate not just a strong argument but empirical evidence. You have statistics and it's not just opinion. I just wanted to thank you for the argument. I like the equality amongst characters, but not the obvious, sexist, sexy disparagement that comes with it.

[thecrimsonflash]

2 hours ago, EricaofRenais said:

I agree with you, my only problem with Nowi is her cloths other then that I don't have a problem with her being in the game at all.  Of course I would be fine with a shota character in FE just to balance out all the lolies.  I am so used to lolies being in some of the manga I like that it does not bother me much.  The sad thing is the lolies on a whole tend to better written then the well endowed woman, and I find that annoying.  

There are plenty of shoutas in fire emblem, Hayato, ricken, rolf, brave bow+ gordin, nils, roy.

you could even debate some others like franz and kurthnaga, I don't think it's fair to count kana, morgan or robin(well maybe kana because female corin seems to be prefered), I mean sure very few of these shoutas are given any acknowledgement by fans (I forgot hayato's name before writing this) but you can't act like they are not there, they just get no exposure and tend to be forgotten.

[Nowi's Husband]

I wouldn't mind if they added more fanservice guys even though that isn't my preference.  They should try to give everyone some fanservice.  

[Magical Glace]

As a shota fan I definitely feel more pandered to in that regard in the main games than in Heroes.  I can’t think of any shotas added post-launch, all the ones that come to mind were in the game at base (Raigh, Gordin, and Roy).  

IS pls give shotas.

[UNLEASH IT]

Shota manakete when?

[gone]

3 minutes ago, UNLEASH IT said:

Shota manakete when?

Nils made it into TOP 100 (81) in CYLR2. I defintely can see this coming.

[UNLEASH IT]

14 minutes ago, fOrEiGn sOUl said:

Nils made it into TOP 100 (81) in CYLR2. I defintely can see this coming.

Not just for heroes, but in general. Nearly every dragon has been a little girl (save for tellius, which might not even count)

[NegativeExponents-]

More shotas to balance out the lolies would be fine. The only ones I really want are Nils, Lugh, Rolf, and Ricken.

30 minutes ago, thecrimsonflash said:

There are plenty of shoutas in fire emblem, Hayato, ricken, rolf, brave bow+ gordin, nils, roy.

Is Roy really considered a shota? He doesn’t look like one.

[Raven]

6 minutes ago, NegativeExponents- said:

More shotas to balance out the lolies would be fine. The only ones I really want are Nils, Lugh, Rolf, and Ricken.

Is Roy really considered a shota? He doesn’t look like one.

I'd agree with that. He's is - and looks - older than Rebecca, and she isn't loli material.

[thecrimsonflash]

4 minutes ago, NegativeExponents- said:

More shotas to balance out the lolies would be fine. The only ones I really want are Nils, Lugh, Rolf, and Ricken.

Is Roy really considered a shota? He doesn’t look like one.

he looks really young in binding blade to me, pretty sure that connoncally he is only 13 and regardless the youngest lord, the only times he looks older is in awakening and smash and those are not perfectly on model.

even if it is a bit of a stretch, I feel that he qualifies.

[Jave]

Let’s not forget about Dew, who is not only a shouta but also has the option to choose between several mature women to marry. 

[thecrimsonflash]

Just now, Jave said:

Let’s not forget about Dew, who is not only a shouta but also has the option to choose between several mature women to marry. 

riken stole this.

I don't know who that is either

[Strullemia]

4 minutes ago, Jave said:

Let’s not forget about Dew, who is not only a shouta but also has the option to choose between several mature women to marry. 

The kid is also quite manly when it counts if his conversation with Lachesis in chapter 5 is anything to go by. 

[Magical Glace]

53 minutes ago, thecrimsonflash said:

he looks really young in binding blade to me, pretty sure that connoncally he is only 13 and regardless the youngest lord, the only times he looks older is in awakening and smash and those are not perfectly on model.

even if it is a bit of a stretch, I feel that he qualifies.

He’s a young-ish looking 15 y/o, he’s more borderline shota than anything.

[Interdimensional Observer]

4 hours ago, EricaofRenais said:

I agree with you, my only problem with Nowi is her cloths other then that I don't have a problem with her being in the game at all.  Of course I would be fine with a shota character in FE just to balance out all the lolies.  I am so used to lolies being in some of the manga I like that it does not bother me much.  The sad thing is the lolies on a whole tend to better written then the well endowed woman, and I find that annoying.  

A list of shotas:

Archanea: Gordin (debatable in FE3/12), Rickard, Ryan, Jubelo. Arguably Radd and Roshea.

Valentia: Outside of the Prologue SoV versions of the PCs, none. Except maybe SoV Kliff.

Jugdral: Gen1 NPCs Oifaye and Shannan, Dew, Caipre/Sharlot, Asbel. Arguably Leif (or it's just that I just find him cute) and Julius. Maybe Azelle and Arthur, but there is a difference between soft/pretty male of some youth and a true shota. I'm not counting Seliph at all as you notice.

Elibe: Roy, Wolt, Lugh, Raigh, Chad, Nils. 

Magvel: Ross, Ewan. Franz is a little debatable, but I think he counts with Forde as a big bro and Amelia being rather close to him in age it seems.

Tellius: Rolf, PoR Sothe, Tormod, Kurthnaga. Arguably Edward and Leonardo.

Awakening and Fates: Ricken, Male Morgan, optionally Male Robin, Hayato, Kana, Kiragi, Percy, optionally Male Corrin.

 

I'm something of a shotacon, hence my compiling. Tormod, Nils, and Rolf ranking up there with my all time favorite from my childhood: the Shota of Time!

Spoiler

Eternally young and innocent. Yet of power great and divine. The Christ Child/Baby Krishna of gaming. Worship him!

As you see, there is a number of debatable shotas- Edward has a cheery upbeat personality, but visually might not be such a shota. Then you have those with the looks, but not the exact expectable personalities for a shota.

What you can also see from this is that shotas are typically mages, but have occupied other classes. Some are very important plot-wise, others are not. Some are amazing in gameplay like Asbel the boss killer and Percy, others like Jubelo and Caipre rank among the worst units in their games.

 

1 hour ago, thecrimsonflash said:

he looks really young in binding blade to me, pretty sure that connoncally he is only 13 and regardless the youngest lord, the only times he looks older is in awakening and smash and those are not perfectly on model.

I think it depends on how he is drawn as you suggest

FE6 Official Artwork Roy looks pretty darn shota:

Spoiler

Smash 4 Roy, are you sure this is the real Roy? I have a hunch its a Roy-Ike Clone. And I'm certain this is no shota:

Spoiler

And for his first official appearance ever, Melee, well I'd say no shota, but he has a little wiggle room:

Spoiler

 

[EricaofRenais]

Ok I get it everyone, I was thinking about shota dragons/shapeshifters since we only have one of those.  I should have been more specific, sorry about that.

[NegativeExponents-]

Yeah Roy is pretty much a shota now that I look at his official art. I was definitely thinking of Smash Roy.

2 hours ago, thecrimsonflash said:

riken stole this.

I don't know who that is either

Keyword is “mature” There wasn’t really anyone I would consider mature in awakening.

55 minutes ago, EricaofRenais said:

Ok I get it everyone, I was thinking about shota dragons/shapeshifters since we only have one of those.  I should have been more specific, sorry about that.

I̶t̶’̶s̶ ̶t̶o̶o̶ ̶l̶a̶t̶e̶ ̶y̶o̶u̶’̶v̶e̶ ̶u̶n̶l̶e̶a̶s̶h̶e̶d̶ ̶s̶h̶o̶t̶a̶ ̶h̶e̶l̶l̶

 

[Johann]

10 hours ago, Frenzify said:

I wouldn't go as far as saying it shouldn't exist, but just question why it does in the first place. Because who is it harming? Like I said before, the number of people who would then go on to transfer their affinity to such characters to real kids is negligible at best. What harm is there in people liking these characters besides some people being uncomfortable with it?

I (and others who share my sentiments) am not attacking everything about a character. I am attacking specific aspects of their designs which we consider problematic. I am not claiming Nowi instigates pedophilia, but rather helps normalize the sexualization of child characters. That you and others are defending this aspect of her and using her other non-sexualized aspects as a shield is problematic and reinforces this norm, even if you aren't personally a fan of her design.

I also wanna say that "people being uncomfortable with it" shouldn't be disregarded, especially if those people are the ones being depicted. Try applying the "well some people like it" argument to something like a racist depiction and consider how ridiculous it sounds. It would be sexist to disregard the female perspective on these matters on the grounds that there are men who enjoy it.

Quote

This is another case of a reasonable person knowing the difference between fiction and reality. In these anime-styled fantasy games, you would have to be very disconnected from reality to take to heart many of the nonsensicalities in these games. You're agreeing that violence in games don't influence violence in real life, yet go on to say that male viewers are likely to be influenced by male characters who are rewarded for their aggressiveness. This is pretty contradictory. So to say this to then support your next point on sexualisation doesn't hold much weight. If people view sexually overt things in games and then think that behaviour like harassment is acceptable, then that person already has a skewed moral compass to think that harassment is acceptable in any way, shape or form. Rather than fantasy games with a history of flimsy-armoured women, that don't rely on realism, things like pornography give a much more harmful influence on the unrealistic expectations of sex.

Allow me to clarify: I did not say violence in video games doesn't influence violence in real life, but that people don't automatically imitate the behavior they see in media. Playing a game where you shoot people doesn't make you go out and shoot people, but it can make you more accepting of guns, violence, and using violence as a means to solve problems. Harassment is just one consequence of sexualizing and objectifying female characters (and one reason why some people have beef with characters who hit on all the girls). Reinforcing norms is another. A sexualized outfit (like flimsy armor) doesn't surprise any of us because we see it all the time, but when people criticize it, you'll see others defend it as being ok because it's a common thing.

Sexualization and objectification aren't always tied to each other. Cliches like the distressed damsel, for instance, routinely objectify female characters, treating them as rewards for a hero character to strive for. This can lead to unrealistic social expectations (including non-sexual ones) and feelings of entitlement, a classic example being the guy who thinks that by being nice or "heroic", they will win over someone's affection.

Once again, don't use "not that bad" in your reasoning. It's dismissing the problem.

Quote

The alternative is true, too, and is far more frequent, or louder, at least, when it comes to characters like Camilla or Tharja. "Fanservicy" charactes, if you will. Saying that one hates fanservice and using that to dismiss any and all positive aspects for a characters. I have seen that so often on the subreddit, that that place is essentially a hotbed for anti-Camilla/Tharja propaganda. I have seen so many people dismiss positive character points "because fanservice" and refuse to acknowledge that there's anything positive with those characters, and that they're only feature is boobs. That side is far more problematic and dismissive. And to refer to your final point about trying not to turn off new players, I would say disregarding ones reasons for liking a character, and dismissing their opinion entirely is far more unwelcoming to new players.

Are you seriously saying that dismissing fanservice characters altogether is worse than sexualizing and objectifying female characters? I want you to stop and think about what you wrote there because it's completely ridiculous and I'm gonna try keep my cool here. I don't have to defend an entire subreddit of people, because some of them are likely motivated for selfish reasons (Voting Gauntlet comes to mind), but don't fucking "both sides" a matter of sexism. I'm giving you real-world implications for these creative choices, and you're countering with how the a fictional character is hated as if that even matters. Your last statement is pretty ridiculous too; Camilla and Tharja are part of the game and pretty hard to miss, while their biggest haters are in completely avoidable fan communities.

Quote

Is giving a character a sexualised appearance undermining that characters other aspects? I don't want to be dismissive of start throwing accusations, but if one can't look past a characters sexualised appearance is that not just being prudish? Having said that, for sure I'd say it's problematic for people uncomfortable with such designs, but who like the actual character beneath. For sure I'd say that fanservice becoming the defining aspect of a character is problematic, but with all the complaining of fanservice going on recently, I have to wonder whether it's the characters' fans defining them by the fanservice, or the characters' dissenters. On Nowi, if she were dressed more presentably, why then would marrying her off be a problem? In fact, when it comes to Nowi, I think the issue is her design combined with her personality. If it were only one or the other, she wouldn't attract such controversy. And on Tharja... yes, socially awkward Tharja is much better than stalker Tharja, but is "stalker Tharja" not just what people call her who write her off as a one note character who's only about Robin? In Awakening she was never just a stalker.

With Camilla I would definitely say her obsession is overplayed. With Tharja I'd say it's only slightly, if that, overplayed. There's so much more to her character that it does a disservice to her to claim that she purely exists to fulfil the players fantasies. She's not so overtly sexual in her character portrait in Awakening, and many of her supports get across her social awkwardness nicely. It's fine to take issue with aspects of her character, but pretending that there's nothing else to her character and focusing solely on their negative aspect, which I will admit exist, does more of a disservice to them. With Faye... I understand the criticisms of her. My issue with them is that she's not treated as much as a fanservice character like Tharja or Camilla. She doesn't feel like a yandere for the sake of being a yandere. She feels more like a teenage girl with an obsessive crush on a celebrity. She feels more real to me, and that's probably why I take issue with her sometimes being treated even worse than her predecessors.

YES, giving a character a sexualized appearance undermines that character's other aspects because games are a visual media. I think you ought to watch this video by Lindsay Ellis because there are some extremely relevant points that are applicable to characters like Tharja:

A quick summary of one of the video's main points is that in a visual medium (film, TV, video games), the visuals supersede whatever the text is trying to say, especially if they are at odds with each other. This is one of the reasons why people focus on the sexualized aspects of these characters over their other non-sexualized qualities, whether they like it or hate it. Tharja has become more and more fanservice oriented since Awakening, as evidenced by most of her lines in Heroes being about an obsession with the summoner and Robin (I should say that haven't seen her in Warriors yet but I would be surprised if she wasn't embellished in similar ways). This isn't a matter of prudishness-- these creative choices detract from the characterization and/or narrative.

Nowi has two problems, her clothing and that you can marry her to someone (making her have a child). Even by the game's standards, her being 1000 years old still makes her a child within her own species, and she looks, talks, and behaves like an actual human child does, so there's no question that she's a child both in and out of the context of the game. The first of her problems, her clothes, could arguably be somewhat resolved by ageing her up to an adult, though it's still an absurd outfit that is barely more than a bikini/lingerie covered with ribbons and bows and sexualizes her in any context. The second problem, her being able to get married and have kids, is 100% a problem because of her age. Changing her clothes doesn't make it any less gross if she's still a child.

Quote

Let's not pretend getting into the top 10 isn't an accomplishment. The difference between Camilla and Veronica is small. Camilla came third. She performed better than round one. Loki, despite what many may say, definitely got such a high rank due to her certain appeal. I hate that argument, but it's difficult to avoid with her. Tharja still made the top 10. I can't quite remember, but was the first CYL conducted prior to the game's release? Take that into account, take into that people have become fans of characters due to either having them in the game, or ignored other characters entirely due to not having them. Take into account that this game has drawn new players to the franchise who haven't played a Fire Emblem game before, take into account that I have seen people say they voted for Veronica to stop Camilla from winning. Yeah, some people dislike fanservice, so will take an aversive stance to such characters, but let's not pretend that these characters aren't still popular, and even attract players to the game. At the end of the day, whether one likes it or not, sex sells.

I bring up CYL results because it shows that non-sexualized characters are consistently more popular than sexualized ones (Camilla technically did worse than before when you consider that Lucina and Lyn's previous victories removed them from the contest). The series would do better to focus more on designing characters with depth than cheap fanservice. "Sex sells" is a misconception. Sex only sells (net-positive) when the product is related to sex in some way. Fire Emblem doesn't need sex to sell, especially if it's not going to be handled well.

9 hours ago, Nowi's Husband said:

I'm glad you can marry Nowi and her design is like that, us lolicons deserve to be catered to just as others are, our money is just as good.  Fictional lolis are a safe outlet for our desires without any real children being hurt.

You should seriously consider getting professional help if you feel you need an outlet for desiring children, especially if the alternative means doing something that endangers them.

[Nowi's Husband]

Nowi being sexualized and able to marry is totally fine, she isn't real.   I can separate fantasies from reality, she isn't making me think it's normal to do that with real life children.  No need to get professional help, my moral compass does a fine job keeping me from ruining some kids life by trying to do that, I would never want to bring harm to someone. 

On topic I know lots of girl complain about sexualized girls but as a guy I don't get bothered by a guy wearing an outfit like Odin or just shirtless altogether like Hawkeye.  Bring on the guys in skimpy outfits, give everyone eye candy.  

Edited February 2, 2018 by Nowi's Husband

[Interdimensional Observer]

50 minutes ago, Nowi's Husband said:

On topic I know lots of girl complain about sexualized girls but as a guy I don't get bothered by a guy wearing an outfit like Odin or just shirtless altogether like Hawkeye.  Bring on the guys in skimpy outfits, give everyone eye candy.  

The ideal solution is either philanderize everyone, no one, or in equal proportion. Provided the argument that sexualizing a female does more harm to perceptions of females than the sexualization of a male does to perceptions of a male. Which is well... arguable!

Hawkeye isn't typically considered sexualized though, even if he has some grounds for being called this. Hawkeye had a wife he loved who died and daughter he cares for, family should be a major turnoff from sexiness. He has a duty as Guardian of Nabata which he takes very seriously. His personality is dull, stoic, simple, in no way is he cutesy, stalker, seductress, or tragically traumatized to be sexual and obsessive in personality. Although a strong stoic type you could make the case is fanservicey by male standards, while the aforementioned personalities of Nowi, Tharja, Loki, and Camilla, wouldn't work on a male and still be seen as sexy. Going back to ideas as old as time as women being weak and men strong and women needing to depend on them.

His attire is also semi-justifiable by the fact he lives in a desert, which is hot and thus less clothing is better. This clothing argument falls to pieces when you consider actual desert dwellers beyond Pharaonic Egypt likes more wearing actual clothing, layers of clothing. Because: it helps reduce dehydration due to sweat evaporation, avoid sunburns, and keeps the desert sand blowing in the unending winds from lashing against your body like sandpaper meets a cat o' nine tails. Either way, his outfit has no bits that implicitly say "Why is this like this? Fanservice!".

If you wanted a case where less clothing is realistic, jungles and tropical islands are just as hot as deserts, without the painful sand and concerns of water loss. Now when are we going to start getting male and female FE Amazonians?

And for me, Odin isn't sexualized, he's just a complete clown in an absurd and absurdly ugly outfit which is more of a turnoff than a lighter for me. If FE had a Jester class, Odin would belong in it perfect as is, and the only jester anywhere near sexy I've ever seen is in a Bolshoi performance of Swan Lake (their choreography stole the show- better than the Odette I daresay, the male Evil Genius was great too).

[Johann]

1 hour ago, Nowi's Husband said:

Nowi being sexualized and able to marry is totally fine, she isn't real.   I can separate fantasies from reality, she isn't making me think it's normal to do that with real life children.  No need to get professional help, my moral compass does a fine job keeping me from ruining some kids life by trying to do that, I would never want to bring harm to someone. 

On topic I know lots of girl complain about sexualized girls but as a guy I don't get bothered by a guy wearing an outfit like Odin or just shirtless altogether like Hawkeye.  Bring on the guys in skimpy outfits, give everyone eye candy.  

See, it's not totally fine, and it's normalizing the idea that it's fine. Take a moment to consider an alternative:

• Imagine if Nowi were a boy character, wearing a tight little speedo.
• Imagine if this boy version of Nowi could get married to an adult and have chidren.
• Imagine if this boy version of Nowi could get romantically involved with an adult male.

If you are uncomfortable with any of these alternatives, think about why. The only thing different here from actual Nowi is gender and sexual orientation. If you are only bothered by Nowi under the alternatives I presented, then you should realize the double standards you've been conditioned to accept.

As males, it's easier for us to not be bothered by male fanservice because we are not routinely objectified, and the way society treats us regarding sexuality is completely different.

[Dark Holy Elf]

2 hours ago, Johann said:

I bring up CYL results because it shows that non-sexualized characters are consistently more popular than sexualized ones (Camilla technically did worse than before when you consider that Lucina and Lyn's previous victories removed them from the contest). The series would do better to focus more on designing characters with depth than cheap fanservice. "Sex sells" is a misconception. Sex only sells (net-positive) when the product is related to sex in some way. Fire Emblem doesn't need sex to sell, especially if it's not going to be handled well.

I have several issues with this.

1. It's not at all clear how you're defining sexualized vs non-sexualized characters, but if you cast the net such that Camilla, Tharja, and Loki qualify (and the other popular FE females do not), then it's obvious that "sexualized" characters are far fewer in number than non-sexualized and thus them taking up 3 of the top 10 spots may in fact counter the very point you're trying to make. Camilla or Tharja is likely the most popular FE character who isn't a lord/main character. (unless you actually believe it's Veronica)

2. If sexualized female characters are in fact not automatically more popular just because they're sexualized (a statement I would, broadly, agree with), then it follows that some of these characters may be popular for other reasons. In particular, if people just went for sexualized characters, then we'd expect Aversa, arguably the most sexualised female character from the most popular FE, to do well in these things. She does not. Like it or not, Camilla's personality is a big part of her popularity. So is Tharja's (and indeed, she did very well in polls immediately after Awakening's release, back when her only appearance was actually relatively tame).

3. While I'm inclined to agree that sex sells may be a misconception for many things, including general video games... you're very naive if you think it's not a big part of gacha. Sexy characters are good at capturing the interests of players who can spend hundreds or even thousands chasing them. I don't say this to defend the practice; I think gacha has many problematic elements, and in general I think "well this helps sell things" isn't a good excuse for a bad idea. (Although I'm not personally opposed to a modest amount of sexualization, especially in a large cast, so long as the female cast feels reasonably empowered. Modern FE, Echoes aside, has done at least... reasonably well about this, although there is much room for improvement!)