Just call me AL

How is using only 3 units in Lyn's Story "optimal"?

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I (thankfully) have never seen the argument on here. But in one particular other FE community, a vocal minority seems to be so set in their views of Lyn being a bad unit (BOY, do I loathe to open up THAT bag of worms again!), how their views are taken seriously baffles me.

And on that community, I see the argument that "Sain, Kent, and Florina should be the only units that are used in Lyn's Story." And I'm sitting here, reading this, and thinking to myself "really?! You're only slowing yourself down and gimping other units by doing that. Plus, Lyn's forced in her own story, and there's plenty of axe units there. Not using her is like trying to use your foot to write sentences."

So, I'm here. Asking you guys on just how much of a valid argument is that. Because of various factors in the general mechanics, as well as the enemy layout, I have a hard time believing this. Worse still is how it can be seen as a valid point against Lyn when the argument is, by definition, sandbagging her. Or at the very least, I don't see the value in such a ploy. So...

Edited by Just call me AL
Thought formatting needed some cleaning up.

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I have no fucking clue. Maybe I'm not the best person to ask since I haven't played blazing blade. But I can tell you this. Only using 3 units in any of the other FE's I've played is SUICIDE.

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EXP in Lyn Mode slows to a crawl at like level 10. Even if you're only using three units, I doubt they're getting much beyond this. And how much is 1-3 extra levels at most going to help? Compared to distributing the same amongst everyone else, which could equate to multiple levels each?

I'd say at least Lyn deserves some leveling, particularly if you want to go Four Fanged Offense Linus version, since I don't find leveling her that easy or fun in Eliwood/Hector Mode.

For the rest, well Dorcas rarely gets much EXP on Lyn Mode for me, nor Wil, neither is really useful. But if I'm doing a Hector Mode run, I'll give Matthew a few levels for their first fight together. Rath comes too high a level to get much EXP, but being the best unpromoted Bow user, I'll see if I can sneak one or two in. Erk and Lucius definitely have great potential, and Lucius in particular has that C Staffs on promotion, so I might as well see get a slight idea of how they will pan out in advance. Wallace deserves nothing obviously. Serra and Nils take from no one. Giving EXP to units is no challenge when LM enemies are so weak and the maps just as easy- it's a giant tutorial for crying out loud, not Cog of Destiny Hector Hard Mode!

Sticking to Kent-Sain-Florina sounds super optimal, too much so for most. And it sounds a little tedious when using everyone else lets me get LM done a bit faster so I can get past this tutorial, while still not neglecting KSF on a standard LM run. And what is the point to feeding Florina a third of everything, when it takes until New Resolve for her to finally promote to Falcoknight? She has plenty of time before the first Elysian Whip to hit 20.

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It's only valid under the logic that only the best units should be used. It's ridiculous to gauge the value of unit but then say they aren't being used. Though for the question you presented...

"How is using only 3 units in Lyn's Story "optimal"?"

I would suggest focusing on no more than 4. Any more than that and experience is likely being spread too thin to make Lyn's story really worth playing.

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My best guess is that it's for some kind of specific run, maybe trying to beat the game as fast as possible and not waste any turns. I can tell you that any of the units in Lyn's story can be used during the endgame of a normal playthrough (as in not considering ranks or turn count) if you want to.

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If you are absolutely min-maxing for a LTC HHM, you might get the best 3 units and give them all the XP, but I find most of Lyn's story's units are pretty good.

Of all of them, the only ones I don't usually use are Wil, Dorcas, Rath, and Wallace.  Wil because archers aren't that great in FE7; Dorcas because Bartre is sort of forced if you want 100% recruitment; Rath because he's too overleveled to gt much XP in Lyn's mode, and he's underleveled by the time you get him in Eliwood/Hector's mode; Wsllace because he's not that great a unit, and I usually don't even get the chapter he's recruited in.

I'm of the mind that Lyn's not as bad as people say she is, and since she's forced, I'd rather use her than not, plus I like Linus's map better than Lloyd's.

Florina, Kent, and Sain are great.  Serra might not get used over Priscilla, but she's your only healer in LM, so might as well use her.  Erk doesn't get as much love as Pent, but he's your only mage for over half the game.  Lucius is your only light magic user for most of the game, and I don't always use him, but he's a solid unit.  Nils is required if you want all the Gaiden chapters.  Matthew is a thief, so doesn't technically need XP to function, but you can feed him a few kills if you want to help his survivability.

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11 minutes ago, Rezzy said:

If you are absolutely min-maxing for a LTC HHM, you might get the best 3 units and give them all the XP, but I find most of Lyn's story's units are pretty good.

Of all of them, the only ones I don't usually use are Wil, Dorcas, Rath, and Wallace.  Wil because archers aren't that great in FE7; Dorcas because Bartre is sort of forced if you want 100% recruitment; Rath because he's too overleveled to gt much XP in Lyn's mode, and he's underleveled by the time you get him in Eliwood/Hector's mode; Wsllace because he's not that great a unit, and I usually don't even get the chapter he's recruited in.

I'm of the mind that Lyn's not as bad as people say she is, and since she's forced, I'd rather use her than not, plus I like Linus's map better than Lloyd's.

Florina, Kent, and Sain are great.  Serra might not get used over Priscilla, but she's your only healer in LM, so might as well use her.  Erk doesn't get as much love as Pent, but he's your only mage for over half the game.  Lucius is your only light magic user for most of the game, and I don't always use him, but he's a solid unit.  Nils is required if you want all the Gaiden chapters.  Matthew is a thief, so doesn't technically need XP to function, but you can feed him a few kills if you want to help his survivability.

Is Dorcas considered better in Eliwood's mode since Bartre can only recruit Karla in Hector's tale?

Rath is an awkward place in terms of experience points in Lyn's story and when you recruit him in the main game, but the chapter you get him in does have a good amount of flying units and it's not too long before you get to an arena. A slight hassle, but I find it worthwhile for a mounted bowman who later starts using swords while taking less movement penalty from trees compared to cavaliers.

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2 minutes ago, Chconroy said:

Is Dorcas considered better in Eliwood's mode since Bartre can only recruit Karla in Hector's tale?

Rath is an awkward place in terms of experience points in Lyn's story and when you recruit him in the main game, but the chapter you get him in does have a good amount of flying units and it's not too long before you get to an arena. A slight hassle, but I find it worthwhile for a mounted bowman who later starts using swords while taking less movement penalty from trees compared to cavaliers.

Bartre isn't mandatory in Eliwood mode, so you can use Dorcas then, if you want, but neither are really that great.  FE7 warriors just aren't that great in general.

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@Interdimensional Observer and @Rezzy: I feel like the two of you basically hit the nail on the head in regards to my personal thoughts. I honestly can't think of anything else to add there.

58 minutes ago, Florete said:

It's only valid under the logic that only the best units should be used. It's ridiculous to gauge the value of unit but then say they aren't being used.

Agreed. It's one of the reasons why I'm baffled. Especially when I see arguments saying that "Lyn has no use of value outside of Lyn's Story." 

58 minutes ago, Florete said:

"How is using only 3 units in Lyn's Story "optimal"?"

I would suggest focusing on no more than 4. Any more than that and experience is likely being spread too thin to make Lyn's story really worth playing.

I could probably name which three off hand that isn't Serra or Nils. Unless if the fourth one is mentioned under the assumption that Lyn is used due to being forced, that is.

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I'd honestly say that... It isn't. The maps are easy, so I don't see the harm in leveling up some of the other units, notably Erk, Lyn, and Matthew (especially if proceeding to play Hector hard mode).

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Basically horse emblem. If you give Florina, Kent and Sain tons of EXP in Lyn's mode, they'll carry you to a ridiculous level when you get them back in Hector/Eliwood's mode. One between Sain and Kent could even promote in Lyn's mode, effectively giving you a second Marcus, and you can promote the other the chapter after you get them back.

It's really kind of ridiculous and overkill to do this, though, and you'd arguably want a stronger Matthew for a smoother first chapter in Hector's mode. And a stronger Lyn for obvious reasons. There is a reason to it, I just prefer to just give maybe ONE of Kent/Sain EXP to promote them by the end of Lyn mode, and give other units like Matthew and Lyn moderate EXP.

Edited by Slumber

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Enemies are perpetually Level 1 and many of them have negative bases. Once a unit gets going, it stays going; and the mode's gameplay is otherwise not very interesting so you may as well barge through the whole thing ASAP.

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2 hours ago, Florete said:

I would suggest focusing on no more than 4. Any more than that and experience is likely being spread too thin to make Lyn's story really worth playing.

The Robe and Ring aren't worth playing LM for?

Even if the best choice for them is of course always Florina, or maybe Kent. Lyn and Erk have inferior cases for them too. Sain would consider the Robe as much as Kent. Rath might like the Ring then. You only get 1 Ring on E/H Modes, and another Robe is never bad.

The White Gem only matters if you care about Ranking.

 

10 minutes ago, Slumber said:

Basically horse emblem. If you give Florina, Kent and Sain tons of EXP in Lyn's mode, they'll carry you to a ridiculous level when you get them back in Hector/Eliwood's mode. One between Sain and Kent could even promote in Lyn's mode, effectively giving you a second Marcus, and you can promote the other the chapter after you get them back.

I can understand in an LTC format or something else super elite an early Cresting working. But otherwise the +1 Move and access to Axes isn't that killer. 

I know the majesty of the Marcus, I've used him generously on my Hard and even Normal runs (and I think I nailed a 5 Tactics on the Hards- I need to check this) because he is very useful and Hard is too mean with limited deployment slots. I felt one Marcus was enough though, let Sain and Kent grow a little more. How many battles have the need for multiple Marcuses in multiple directions (assuming what defines Marcus is godly 1RKOing EP)?

Noble Lady would argue for a second Marcus, were it not for Florina ferrying. Whereabouts is a 1 Marcus hallway plunge. Badon, I don't think so. The Pirate Ship? Well the Move isn't doing anything big here. Uhai? Unless ye want the Torch Staff, I think not really, although the front is from two directions- the island and the southern forests. Imprisoner, no. Dragon's Gate? Still one main direction, despite the offshoot paths. New Resolve, one direction. Kinship, multiple fronts, but you don't need much Move because it's a Defend. Living Legend- too sandy? Genesis- finally a need for two Marcuses! And I think I'll stop here, since by now, Kent or Sain should have been able to hit 20 and promote naturally.

EXP gain slows significantly on promotion for quite a while, and the promotion bonuses aren't Thracian Sage crazy: just +1 to everything not HP/Def/Con (which get +2), very mild. The Con is good for Javelin throwing though.

I know you weren't exactly arguing for this, just felt like further explaining why it isn't really the best of ideas unless you really know what you're doing. 

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7 minutes ago, Interdimensional Observer said:

The Robe and Ring aren't worth playing LM for?

Even if the best choice for them is of course always Florina, or maybe Kent. Lyn and Erk have inferior cases for them too. Sain would consider the Robe as much as Kent. Rath might like the Ring then. You only get 1 Ring on E/H Modes, and another Robe is never bad.

The White Gem only matters if you care about Ranking.

 

I can understand in an LTC format or something else super elite an early Cresting working. But otherwise the +1 Move and access to Axes isn't that killer. 

I know the majesty of the Marcus, I've used him generously on my Hard and even Normal runs (and I think I nailed a 5 Tactics on the Hards- I need to check this) because he is very useful and Hard is too mean with limited deployment slots. I felt one Marcus was enough though, let Sain and Kent grow a little more. How many battles have the need for multiple Marcuses in multiple directions (assuming what defines Marcus is godly 1RKOing EP)?

Noble Lady would argue for a second Marcus, were it not for Florina ferrying. Whereabouts is a 1 Marcus hallway plunge. Badon, I don't think so. The Pirate Ship? Well the Move isn't doing anything big here. Uhai? Unless ye want the Torch Staff, I think not really, although the front is from two directions- the island and the southern forests. Imprisoner, no. Dragon's Gate? Still one main direction, despite the offshoot paths. New Resolve, one direction. Kinship, multiple fronts, but you don't need much Move because it's a Defend. Living Legend- too sandy? Genesis- finally a need for two Marcuses! And I think I'll stop here, since by now, Kent or Sain should have been able to hit 20 and promote naturally.

EXP gain slows significantly on promotion for quite a while, and the promotion bonuses aren't Thracian Sage crazy: just +1 to everything not HP/Def/Con (which get +2), very mild. The Con is good for Javelin throwing though.

I know you weren't exactly arguing for this, just felt like further explaining why it isn't really the best of ideas unless you really know what you're doing. 

Out of this, the only thing I'll argue is using Wallace's Knight Crest to promote Sain/Kent(Even without massive babying, getting one of them to at least level 12 isn't a huge stretch. Once one hits level 10, just have whoever you want to promote kill Eagler and Lundgren, then promote before seizing with Lyn) early in Lyn's mode. There's really no reason not to, as using it on Wallace is a HUGE waste of a Knight's Crest, and getting another Marcus ultimately doesn't hurt. Do you need 2 Marcuses? No, but FE7's not exactly a game where you need units to promote at max level, and you need a promoted Wallace even less.

Edited by Slumber

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1 minute ago, Slumber said:

Out of this, the only thing I'll argue is using Wallace's Knight Crest to promote Sain/Kent(Even without massive babying, getting one of them to at least level 12 isn't a huge stretch. Once one hits level 10, just have whoever you want to promote kill Eagler and Lundgren, then promote before seizing with Lyn) early in Lyn's mode. There's really no reason not to, as using it on Wallace is a HUGE waste of a Knight's Crest, and getting another Marcus ultimately doesn't hurt.

Fair enough, you don't need to train both Cavaliers to their greater potential by leaving them unpromoted for a while, one will suffice. And there is always Lowen for a backup second full potential Cav, although 30/30/30 for offensive growths are lackluster.

And agreed Wallace is a useless waste of the Crest, unless you get Lloyd FFO and want 100% recruitment (can he survive for long unpromoted there?). Or happen to be a super Wallace fan who doesn't want to promote him, and yet recruit him later and get him to 20/20, but that is pretty darn extreme.

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In LTC, you'd want to get as much EXP as possible into Florina, and one of Sain and Kent but not both. Maybe Erk or Lucius if you're rigging levels as well. Lyn would have the odd contribution but training her too much would risk going to Geitz's chapter which takes longer than Wallace's.

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9 hours ago, Just call me AL said:

I (thankfully) have never seen the argument on here. But in one particular other FE community, a vocal minority seems to be so set in their views of Lyn being a bad unit (BOY, do I loathe to open up THAT bag of worms again!), how their views are taken seriously baffles me.

And on that community, I see the argument that "Sain, Kent, and Florina should be the only units that are used in Lyn's Story." And I'm sitting here, reading this, and thinking to myself "really?! You're only slowing yourself down and gimping other units by doing that. Plus, Lyn's forced in her own story, and there's plenty of axe units there. Not using her is like trying to use your foot to write sentences."

So, I'm here. Asking you guys on just how much of a valid argument is that. Because of various factors in the general mechanics, as well as the enemy layout, I have a hard time believing this. Worse still is how it can be seen as a valid point against Lyn when the argument is, by definition, sandbagging her. Or at the very least, I don't see the value in such a ploy. So...

Ok, that's new new for me. This is optimal for what again? So my points in this:

  • Lyn is bad, if you think the most important stats are Str and Def(beginners might think).
  • This group seems to like units with high movement, so it's surprising they didn't include Rath.
  • The biggest surprise of me is that they neglect magic users completely, why would that even be good in Blazing Sword?
  • If they go for Hector Mode, they give themselves a huge disadvantage(train Matthew and Serra pls), maybe it's for some kind of Eliwood route challenge.
  • And I don't know why would use only Lance users. I mean Cavaliers can use Swords, sure, but they are somewhat better with Lances.

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2 hours ago, Garlyle said:

 

  • Lyn is bad, if you think the most important stats are Str and Def(beginners might think).
  • This group seems to like units with high movement, so it's surprising they didn't include Rath.
  • The biggest surprise of me is that they neglect magic users completely, why would that even be good in Blazing Sword?
  • If they go for Hector Mode, they give themselves a huge disadvantage(train Matthew and Serra pls), maybe it's for some kind of Eliwood route challenge.
  • And I don't know why would use only Lance users. I mean Cavaliers can use Swords, sure, but they are somewhat better with Lances.
  • Lyn is arguably bad. She's really just a gimped Myrmidon who gets no crit bonus, has a late promotion, and gains bows(Which isn't really a positive). Myrmidons were already losing prominence after FE6 when they lost their massive crit bonus, so a speedy swordie who CAN'T hit very hard, can't take many hits, and can't crit to compensate is... well, generally not fantastic. Obviously a better Lyn is better for 99% of people, but this is ultimately an argument about what's "optimal". Leaving Lyn on the figurative bench(Obviously you can't in Lyn mode, but just not using her beyond seizing) is more "optimal".
  • Rath has bad availability and is low level when he rejoins. LTC/Optimal runners can't spare training up low leveled units. He's also a primary bow unit, which isn't great in FE7. He's also a huge EXP sponge because he's ironically OVERLEVELED in Lyn mode, wasting EXP that could go to other units who won't be underleveled when they next show up.
  • You don't need magic, especially when the game gives you Athos right at the end. The one case would be using Luna against the Fire Dragon at the end, but again, Athos is there and can use Luna, so... The game also gives you Pent, who is just a better Erk who doesn't need the investment. Weighing your options as "Train up these units who are easy to get going and have very quick payoffs" vs. "Train up this one Mage who is slow to get going and won't offer you anything remarkable that another unit won't offer later on", the conclusion should be obvious.
  • Matthew doesn't needs much training. Thieves are largely treated as purely utility, and the idea is to NOT get them in combat. The one place where this isn't really all that practical is the very first chapter of Hector's mode, but you can also do that map with a base level Matthew with no Lyn mode on HHM. There really is no "training Serra" beyond deliberately getting your units hurt and wasting turns letting her heal them back up to full. I don't think I need to explain why this doesn't fly in optimal playthroughs.
  • Paladins gain Axes at promotion and their primary weapon at that point will likely be Hand Axes, so they're not really only picking Lancers. Florina is a bit of a different story, but she has insane utility to make up for it. It's not a conscious decision to only use lance users, it's just that lance users are mounted, and can clear maps very quickly.

Just to note, I'm not advocating that you should only only level Sain, Kent and Florina in Lyn mode. Level whoever you want. I'm not an LTCer or anything, I'm just trying to explain the mentality because FE7 is probably the closest I've ever gotten to "LTC"ing. It wasn't anything set in stone, I just wanted to find my own way of seeing how fast I could beat FE7.

Edited by Slumber

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Up to a point I sort of agree with the notion   of only using Sain, Kent and Florina but that's because they're mounted units and mounted units outclass everybody else. HOWEVER by that argument why isn't Rath being used then? Furthermore there are some chapters such as the defense chapter where Dorcas is recruited where there's no point to ONLY using Lynn, Florina, Sain and Kent, it's a defend map. Why not use Will to engage the archer that's of too the left? Why not send Dorcas to go help Will guard the other side entrance? etc,etc.

P.S. Slumber makes some excellent points all of which I agree with.

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1 hour ago, Slumber said:
  • Lyn is arguably bad. She's really just a gimped Myrmidon who gets no crit bonus, has a late promotion, and gains bows(Which isn't really a positive). Myrmidons were already losing prominence after FE6 when they lost their massive crit bonus, so a speedy swordie who CAN'T hit very hard, can't take many hits, and can't crit to compensate is... well, generally not fantastic. Obviously a better Lyn is better for 99% of people, but this is ultimately an argument about what's "optimal". Leaving Lyn on the figurative bench(Obviously you can't in Lyn mode, but just not using her beyond seizing) is more "optimal".
  • Rath has bad availability and is low level when he rejoins. LTC/Optimal runners can't spare training up low leveled units. He's also a primary bow unit, which isn't great in FE7. He's also a huge EXP sponge because he's ironically OVERLEVELED in Lyn mode, wasting EXP that could go to other units who won't be underleveled when they next show up.
  • You don't need magic, especially when the game gives you Athos right at the end. The one case would be using Luna against the Fire Dragon at the end, but again, Athos is there and can use Luna, so... The game also gives you Pent, who is just a better Erk who doesn't need the investment. Weighing your options as "Train up these units who are easy to get going and have very quick payoffs" vs. "Train up this one Mage who is slow to get going and won't offer you anything remarkable that another unit won't offer later on", the conclusion should be obvious.
  • Matthew doesn't needs much training. Thieves are largely treated as purely utility, and the idea is to NOT get them in combat. The one place where this isn't really all that practical is the very first chapter of Hector's mode, but you can also do that map with a base level Matthew with no Lyn mode on HHM. There really is no "training Serra" beyond deliberately getting your units hurt and wasting turns letting her heal them back up to full. I don't think I need to explain why this doesn't fly in optimal playthroughs.
  • Paladins gain Axes at promotion and their primary weapon at that point will likely be Hand Axes, so they're not really only picking Lancers. Florina is a bit of a different story, but she has insane utility to make up for it. It's not a conscious decision to only use lance users, it's just that lance users are mounted, and can clear maps very quickly.

Just to note, I'm not advocating that you should only only level Sain, Kent and Florina in Lyn mode. Level whoever you want. I'm not an LTCer or anything, I'm just trying to explain the mentality because FE7 is probably the closest I've ever gotten to "LTC"ing. It wasn't anything set in stone, I just wanted to find my own way of seeing how fast I could beat FE7.

Benching Lyn in her own chapters is just not worth it though. I do love Nomad troopers, and I never used Rath a lot, but I'm not the only one to point him out. And it's not just the final chapter where magic is more useful than Cavaliers. Healers are always level up slower, so why give you disadvantage with Lyn chapters? I used to think it's good to have multiple weapon options, so you can use them in any situations, now I prefer to use a character with 1 weapon in most scenarios (or 2 if my weapon levels are less important)

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I'm on your side. Lyn is one of the best units in the game. The very idea that someone would hold her back in her mode is just ridiculous. Kent,Sain and Florina both get enough experience just fine even if Lyn takes the offensive. I usually have Kent with lv 7, Sain lv 6 and Florina lv 4-5 by the end of it with Lyn at lv 7-9. Not to mention that the Mani Katti is going to reset it's number of uses, it's just wrong to not use it at all.

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I heard Rath is better if you skip Lyn mode (Although that screws every other LM unit) or if you kill him (would prevent getting the White Gem).

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5 hours ago, DiogoJorge said:

I'm on your side. Lyn is one of the best units in the game. The very idea that someone would hold her back in her mode is just ridiculous. Kent,Sain and Florina both get enough experience just fine even if Lyn takes the offensive. I usually have Kent with lv 7, Sain lv 6 and Florina lv 4-5 by the end of it with Lyn at lv 7-9. Not to mention that the Mani Katti is going to reset it's number of uses, it's just wrong to not use it at all.

Because, again, Lyn isn't going to be very good. It's cool if you like her, but you're really going to have to backup the "She's one of the best units in the game" deal, because for the umpteenth time, she's a worse Swordmaster that can't promote until fairly late in the game. The Mani Katti is only going to get her so far, and once it's gone in Eliwood/Hector, she shoots back down to sub-mediocrity. She can't hit hard, she can't take many hits, dodgetanks aren't OP in FE7, and she can't crit reliably. The only thing she is really great at is being speedy, but that's really unimpressive in FE7 where enemies have notoriously low speed. 

It's far more optimal to in the long run to give Lyn's EXP to Florina and the Cavs.

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Quote

The Mani Katti is only going to get her so far, and once it's gone in Eliwood/Hector, she shoots back down to sub-mediocrity.

IF it's gone. There are only so many enemy knights, cavaliers, nomads, and valkyries in the game; Lyn isn't going to fight all of them anyway; and using the Mani Katti on anything else is wasteful, since an Iron Sword could do the job well enough against anything else.

Besides, while this may just be personal opinion, I think Linus' version of Four-Fanged Offense is so much better than Lloyd's that it's worth leveling Lyn up just for that. (And you're not going to get Linus' version of Four-Fanged Offense if Lyn isn't at least level 10.)

Edited by Paper Jam

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18 minutes ago, Paper Jam said:

IF it's gone. There are only so many enemy knights, cavaliers, nomads, and valkyries in the game; Lyn isn't going to fight all of them anyway; and using the Mani Katti on anything else is wasteful, since an Iron Sword could do the job well enough against anything else.

I'll second this; if you want to break the Mani Katti by chapter 30 (if it breaks to begin with), you need to overuse it.

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