How is using only 3 units in Lyn's Story "optimal"?

[Slumber]

8 hours ago, Paper Jam said:

IF it's gone. There are only so many enemy knights, cavaliers, nomads, and valkyries in the game; Lyn isn't going to fight all of them anyway; and using the Mani Katti on anything else is wasteful, since an Iron Sword could do the job well enough against anything else.

Besides, while this may just be personal opinion, I think Linus' version of Four-Fanged Offense is so much better than Lloyd's that it's worth leveling Lyn up just for that. (And you're not going to get Linus' version of Four-Fanged Offense if Lyn isn't at least level 10.)

I feel like some of you guys aren't getting the argument of this thread. This is about optimal play. Optimal play does not always(In fact, not even likely) mean how you prefer to play. 

Leveling Lyn is how you might prefer to play, but it's not generally optimal. Linus' chapter might be your preferred version of FFO, but it's not optimal. 

Edited February 26, 2018 by Slumber

[Florete]

9 hours ago, Hylian Air Force said:

I heard Rath is better if you skip Lyn mode (Although that screws every other LM unit) or if you kill him (would prevent getting the White Gem).

Getting the White Gem is only based on your LM funds. Rath or anyone else dying has no effect.

[Titamon]

I always thought the optimal set up was considered:

Florina

One of Kent or Sain

Erk or Luiius

And Lyn can gain exp on the side. (If you want to use her of course.)

Exp experince slows to crawl once you hit lvl 7 So there room for other non-mounted units to pick up kills.

[Paper Jam]

Leveling Lyn is how you might prefer to play, but it's not optimal. Linus' chapter might be your preferred version of FFO, but it's not optimal.

Then we need clearer parameters for what is "optimal" in FE7. I wasn't even aware that Lloyd's version of FFO was optimal, for example.

[Slumber]

15 minutes ago, Paper Jam said:

 

 

Then we need clearer parameters for what is "optimal" in FE7. I wasn't even aware that Lloyd's version of FFO was optimal, for example.

Linus' map is harder and more winding. 

Lloyd's is a straight shot to the gate that needs to be seized. 

[Shadow Mir]

51 minutes ago, Slumber said:

Linus' map is harder and more winding. 

Lloyd's is a straight shot to the gate that needs to be seized. 

Linus's map is harder how??? That is literally the first instance I have seen of someone saying this.

[Slumber]

8 minutes ago, Levant Mir Celestia said:

Linus's map is harder how??? That is literally the first instance I have seen of someone saying this.

More enemies(Including Geitz) in the way en route to the boss. Plus, you either take out Dart to recruit Geitz, or you basically have a second boss that can move.

In Lloyd's map, it's pretty much just a Swordmaster that isn't much of a threat that might slow you down.

Edited February 26, 2018 by Slumber

[Florete]

2 hours ago, Slumber said:

Linus' map is harder and more winding. 

Lloyd's is a straight shot to the gate that needs to be seized. 

Both are boss kill maps.

Which one is more "optimal" depends on a lot of different factors. Lloyd's is in fog-of-war, which is naturally more dangerous for anyone, especially less experienced players. Lloyd's can also be beaten much faster, which is good for people trying to keep their turn count low. However, in hard mode Linus' has 11 extra turns for ranked, which is more than the extra turns it will require players to beat it. Geitz is also a much better unit than Wallace.

1 hour ago, Slumber said:

More enemies(Including Geitz) in the way en route to the boss. Plus, you either take out Dart to recruit Geitz, or you basically have a second boss that can move.

In Lloyd's map, it's pretty much just a Swordmaster that isn't much of a threat that might slow you down.

Geitz isn't on the direct path to Linus in Eliwood's or Hector's version of the map. In Hector's you might need to skip a shop and take care where you place your units if you really need to avoid him, but you certainly can, and in Eliwood's he's way off in another direction.

[Slumber]

4 minutes ago, Florete said:

Both are boss kill maps.

Which one is more "optimal" depends on a lot of different factors. Lloyd's is in fog-of-war, which is naturally more dangerous for anyone, especially less experienced players. Lloyd's can also be beaten much faster, which is good for people trying to keep their turn count low. However, in hard mode Linus' has 11 extra turns for ranked, which is more than the extra turns it will require players to beat it. Geitz is also a much better unit than Wallace.

Actually completely blanked on this.

Still, not sure it warrants giving Lyn more EXP for.

Edited February 26, 2018 by Slumber

[Florete]

6 minutes ago, Slumber said:

Actually completely blanked on this.

Still, not sure it warrants giving Lyn more EXP for.

It's ultimately up to the player, and for the sake of this topic, whatever is considered "optimal" to the player. I find Lyn to be a good unit well worth using, making the issue of going to Linus' FFO being whether or not I want to put the work into Eliwood. And Hector to a degree, since I don't find him good enough to be a given.

[Slumber]

32 minutes ago, Florete said:

It's ultimately up to the player, and for the sake of this topic, whatever is considered "optimal" to the player. I find Lyn to be a good unit well worth using, making the issue of going to Linus' FFO being whether or not I want to put the work into Eliwood. And Hector to a degree, since I don't find him good enough to be a given.

Either way, splitting up 50 levels between the 3 lords is a lot to ask for if you're trying to LTC or whatever you consider "optimal". Lyn just became a focal point because this is mostly about LHM.

And again, since it's a new page, I don't really have any strong feelings on this whole subject(Well, not liking Lyn as a unit and advising against using her is). I'm just trying to argue for why only Florina/Kent/Sain might be "optimal" for LHM.

Edited February 26, 2018 by Slumber

[Jave]

Thing is, I don't think anyone considers pure LTC to be "Optimal" in FE7. If anything, it's a ranked run, in which you're very likely to get FFO Linus given that you have to get as much exp as possible in order to get high ranks, while turn count for ranks is considerably more flexible. It's not like, say, FE5, where a ranked run is basically an incredibly tight turn count along with recruiting every single character possible.

[Florete]

Yeah, I think we're kind of past the days where LTC is considered optimal. Imo, questioning who should be used to play optimally is going in the wrong order already; I'd rather decide who's being used, then talk about how to play optimally with the unit or units from there. I think that's how most people play when they aren't doing a blind run anyway.

[Slumber]

1 hour ago, Jave said:

Thing is, I don't think anyone considers pure LTC to be "Optimal" in FE7. If anything, it's a ranked run, in which you're very likely to get FFO Linus given that you have to get as much exp as possible in order to get high ranks, while turn count for ranks is considerably more flexible. It's not like, say, FE5, where a ranked run is basically an incredibly tight turn count along with recruiting every single character possible.

That's why I have been trying to separate LTC and "optimal" when I've been addressing this. LTC is a different beast from ranked runs.

[ping]

19 hours ago, Hylian Air Force said:

I heard Rath is better if you skip Lyn mode (Although that screws every other LM unit) or if you kill him (would prevent getting the White Gem).

Rath starts with B bows instead of C if you skip LM / let him die. Since you should have a Brave Bow in your inventory when he joins, this is actually a Big Deal for his initial performance.

[DiogoJorge]

18 hours ago, Slumber said:

Because, again, Lyn isn't going to be very good. It's cool if you like her, but you're really going to have to backup the "She's one of the best units in the game" deal, because for the umpteenth time, she's a worse Swordmaster that can't promote until fairly late in the game. The Mani Katti is only going to get her so far, and once it's gone in Eliwood/Hector, she shoots back down to sub-mediocrity. She can't hit hard, she can't take many hits, dodgetanks aren't OP in FE7, and she can't crit reliably. The only thing she is really great at is being speedy, but that's really unimpressive in FE7 where enemies have notoriously low speed. 

It's far more optimal to in the long run to give Lyn's EXP to Florina and the Cavs.

Lyn is good though. Lots of SPD and LUK which make her one of the best dodgetanks. When enemies have hit rates below 30%, dodgetanking becomes reliable.

She has a 40% STR growth, she's hitting hard enough unless you don't use her at all. Not to mention that she's usually the first to be able to use a Silver Sword.

FE7 enemies aren't that slow to begin with. It's not echoes. You still want characters with plenty of SPD.

Her critical is good enough though. Since her supports boost them to good levels.

No, it's not. Florina is inferior to Lyn to begin with, less HP growth and doesn't have as much SPD. Not to mention she's forced to use lances which weight her down.

Kent and Sain aren't as fast as Lyn is, nor do they have a powerfull Prf weapon. Lyn's supports are easier to build as well.

Edited February 26, 2018 by DiogoJorge

[Slumber]

11 hours ago, DiogoJorge said:

Lyn is good though. Lots of SPD and LUK which make her one of the best dodgetanks. When enemies have hit rates below 30%, dodgetanking becomes reliable.

She has a 40% STR growth, she's hitting hard enough unless you don't use her at all. Not to mention that she's usually the first to be able to use a Silver Sword.

FE7 enemies aren't that slow to begin with. It's not echoes. You still want characters with plenty of SPD.

Her critical is good enough though. Since her supports boost them to good levels.

No, it's not. Florina is inferior to Lyn to begin with, less HP growth and doesn't have as much SPD. Not to mention she's forced to use lances which weight her down.

Kent and Sain aren't as fast as Lyn is, nor do they have a powerfull Prf weapon. Lyn's supports are easier to build as well.

Lyn's 40% strength growth SEEMS impressive on paper.

However, she has a base of 4. She's using the weakest weapon type, and on average at best going to only ever have 12 STR until promotion. Her late promotion means she won't be gaining anymore STR until the mid-late game, where she is going to have severe issues dishing out damage. That Silver Sword solution is an expensive, expensive solution. If we're taking "optimal" in this case to mean ranked, giving Lyn Silver Swords is going to put a belt around your funds ranking, and you'll probably have to compensate somewhere else. The easier solution, as has been the topic of this thread, is to not use Lyn.

Florina, conversely, is statistically very similar to Lyn. You're going to explain why Florina, one of the fastest units in the game, not having as much speed as Lyn, is a problem. She will still be reliably doubling everything, she can promote WAY earlier than Lyn, and she has more Strength than Lyn, while also not being tied to the weakest weapon type in the game. However, you're not going to be using her for her combat abilities. You need Florina to be "just good enough", which she will be. Florina's not supposed to be some powerhouse. Her main selling point is that she can fly. She's an incredibly useful utility unit and she can rush bosses insanely fast, and that alone blows anything Lyn has out of the water.

I don't know why "Lyn being fast" is your criteria for good units in this game. Speed is arguably at one of its lowest points in the franchise here. Just as long as you aren't Wallace, Dorcas or Bartre, pretty much everyone on your team will be doubling everything. Kent and Sain not being as fast as Lyn means nothing. They'll still be faster than nearly every single nameless mook in the game, and they'll be faster than most bosses. And again, what they do have blows what Lyn has completely out of the water. Lyn's got a Prf weapon that almost always means she's at a WTA disadvantage. Neato. Having her pick off Cavs and Knights on the player phase only goes so far, and she'll be in a lot of trouble if you try to utilize it on the enemy phase. Having mounts and more rounded offensive stats is more important in FE7 than being fast. By a ridiculous amount.

Edited February 26, 2018 by Slumber

[Florete]

28 minutes ago, Slumber said:

That Silver Sword solution is an expensive, expensive solution. If we're taking "optimal" in this case to mean ranked, giving Lyn Silver Swords is going to put a belt around your funds ranking, and you'll probably have to compensate somewhere else. The easier solution, as has been the topic of this thread, is to not use Lyn.

Like others often do, you're really overestimating the impact of funds on a ranked run. Sure, you have to be conscious of it, unlike combat, but it isn't nearly so straining that you can't afford to give Lyn (or anyone else) a silver weapon for those enemies she really needs it for. She's not going to be eating them up as long as you're smart.

But yeah Florina, Kent, and Sain are easily better units than Lyn.

[Baldrick]

4 hours ago, Florete said:

Like others often do, you're really overestimating the impact of funds on a ranked run. Sure, you have to be conscious of it, unlike combat, but it isn't nearly so straining that you can't afford to give Lyn (or anyone else) a silver weapon for those enemies she really needs it for. She's not going to be eating them up as long as you're smart.

But yeah Florina, Kent, and Sain are easily better units than Lyn.

It's not so much overestimating the rank as it is balancing the ranks. An optimal ranked run would give yourself the most margin for error by making the best decisions; what units to use, what weapons to use, how fast to go etc. always has a tradeoff between ranks.

I would object not to the Silver part, but the Sword part; they are the weakest and most expensive of the weapons, so you should always prefer to use a lance or an axe whenever possible. Out of the mono-sword users, Lyn is also the lowest priority for swords since she has a prf weapon with no Worth that can secure her easy kills. I think an optimal ranked run of LHM would want actually want to spam Lyn since she'll get the Mani Katti repaired.

Edited February 27, 2018 by Baldrick
not Eliwood

[MacLovin]

the only good units in lyn mode are the mounts and lucius.

Sure you could level Erk (and matthew I guess) a little so he's useful in the main game and because noone really gets past level 10 unless you keep feeding them bosskills. 

 

but man Lyn sucks ass in HHM. Gets 2HKO'd by everything, relies on swords to do shit and the good swords you get early on kinda go to waste.

 

But hey, get her to level 10 alongside maxing out the other two lords and you get the best Warrior in the game. Geitz is pretty cool and can use the brave bow. That's worth something. 

[Paper Jam]

One possible issue, regarding ranked runs, is that units of higher level gain that much less experience from each kill on Hard Mode, and every experience point that they gain in Lyn's tale is one less that they can gain in Eliwood's/Hector's tale.

I remember on my last HHM playthrough wishing that I had given Florina less experience in Lyn's tale so that she could have gotten more experience in chapter 18 of Hector's Tale, and that I specifically failed to get 5-star Experience in that chapter because none of my units were getting much experience from the kills.

Even so, focusing on only three units to the exclusion of the rest seems like overkill to me. There's no reason not to let every unit in Lyn's tale get at least two levels (except maybe Wallace).

Edited February 27, 2018 by Paper Jam

[DiogoJorge]

15 hours ago, Florete said:

Like others often do, you're really overestimating the impact of funds on a ranked run. Sure, you have to be conscious of it, unlike combat, but it isn't nearly so straining that you can't afford to give Lyn (or anyone else) a silver weapon for those enemies she really needs it for. She's not going to be eating them up as long as you're smart.

But yeah Florina, Kent, and Sain are easily better units than Lyn.

Afraid not. Florina can't even use terrain bonuses to her vantage, which Lyn can. Kent and Sain can't dodgetank, they have to rely on their DEF stat instead which is not as high as a knight. They also can't crit as much as she does and she can double enemies that they usually can't.

[BBM]

the point is that you don't need to have the highest stats, you just need to have stats that are good enough. Kent and Sain don't have HP/DEF as high as Oswin, but they're still bulky enough to survive at least 3-4 hits a turn, and Lyn isn't. They don't double everything like Lyn does maybe, but they still double 90% of units, which Oswin can't. And because their STR is much better and they use better weapon types, the amount of units that they can ORKO is much greater than the ones that Lyn can ORKO. And they do it all with 2 more move, meaning they can get to units before Lyn does and you can control their positioning better. And they have 1-2 range, which Lyn never gets, not even after promotion.

i'm also not sure why you think dodgetanking is preferable to regular tanking. If Lyn needs to dodge a hits at 25% to survive for example, sure those are good odds but 1/4 times you'll still need to restart because she died. With regular tanking, I can calculate to know exactly how much danger I'm putting my units in so I know exactly how many units I can safely expose them to- whereas with dodgetanking it's a random variable with variance.

Lyn's crit also comes from the Mani Katti mostly; SKL differences are just a couple points of crit. Relying on crit introduces variance again, and relying on the MK too much for non-armor/cav enemies will deplete it quickly. And most armor/cav enemies equip lances, so she has WTD against them and can't dodgetank reliably.

She's perfectly usable still; everyone is. But her stats are just worse. she doesn't kill things as well as any of those other units, especially without the MK, and she doesn't survive as well either, no matter how much you want to pump up dodgetanking. Yes you can give her Silver weapons, but now you're going out of your way to favour her so that she can pick up kills that Kent/Sain/Florina could have achieved with Iron and Steel weapons. 

btw Lloyd's version of FFO on Hector's mode has him stand out in the middle of the map. so with some experience or just some trial and error if you're new, you can beat that chapter in 2 turns quite easily. If you're trying to play quickly (not even LTC, just quickly), Lloyd's map is a better choice. 

[Paper Jam]

Quote

the point is that you don't need to have the highest stats, you just need to have stats that are good enough. Kent and Sain don't have HP/DEF as high as Oswin, but they're still bulky enough to survive at least 3-4 hits a turn, and Lyn isn't.

But Lyn's Speed and Luck are high enough that she doesn't need to survive 3-4 hits a turn; she's much more likely to dodge them.

Enemies with lances are a problem for her, of course, but as I said earlier, she's not going to fight that many enemies with lances anyway.

Edited February 27, 2018 by Paper Jam

[BBM]

you can't rely on her dodging though, is my point.

also, half the enemies in the game once she re-joins in Chapter 15 use lances lol. who is she fighting if not them? mages and archers that she can't counter on EP? mercs/myrms who have good hit and she probably can't dodgetank very effectively against?