How is using only 3 units in Lyn's Story "optimal"?

[Florete]

I rely on Lyn dodging all the time and it's never let me down. Terrain, weapon triangle, and high natural avoid work wonders. For lances, don't forget lancereavers. And with terrain, weaker enemies have trouble hitting Lyn even if she is at WTD.

8 hours ago, DiogoJorge said:

Afraid not. Florina can't even use terrain bonuses to her vantage, which Lyn can. Kent and Sain can't dodgetank, they have to rely on their DEF stat instead which is not as high as a knight. They also can't crit as much as she does and she can double enemies that they usually can't.

I honestly never imagined I'd have to tell someone Lyn is not as good as they are saying she is, considering I hold her in higher regard than most do. Florina's inability to use terrain is her one disadvantage. Is it really not enough that she has 7-8 move unhindered, 1-2 range options, and rescuing utility? Kent and Sain can't dodge tank necessarily (they still have enough avoid to dodge reliably at WTA), but their defenses are certainly good enough that they're not usually in danger, they have 7-8 move, enough SPD to double most of the game's enemies, full weapon triangle control on promotion, and rescuing utility. How is this worse than Lyn?

[BBM]

Lyn only uses 1 weapon, swords. Her control of the WT is very limited, especially considering how prevalent lance enemies like Soldiers, Knights, Cavaliers, Pegasus Knights, and most importantly, Wyvern Riders are. Sure she can use Lancereavers and Silver Swords, but those are relatively rare. Why does she get them over better units like Raven? and even if she does get them, and she can reliably survive through dodgetanking- anybody can kill weak enemies like Soldiers and Archers. How long does it take her to kill better enemies like Wyvern Riders?

Also, terrain isn't available in all maps, and heavily relying on it to dodgetank and survive slows you down even more than using infantry normally does. All that is fine- but if we're talking about "optimal" ways to play- pretty much no matter what definition of "optimal" you use, whether that's LTC or rankings or efficiency, it doesn't work.

But yeah, the comparison to Florina/Kent/Sain is unfair- they're probably 3 of the top 5 characters in the game.

Edited February 27, 2018 by BBM

[Florete]

4 hours ago, BBM said:

Why does she get them over better units like Raven?

You can just give them to both.

[BBM]

sure I guess but they aren't available until Lloyd/Linus. What's she doing until then? even once she gets them, she can't equip both the Mani Katti and the Lancereaver so she's giving up offence for better survivability there. And tbh all this doesn't even get to arguably her biggest combat problem- no 1-2 range.

my point isn't that she's useless. there's stuff you can do to make her better. you can give her the statboosters from LM too if you want. But all those things you can do to make her better you can also do to other people. At that point it's not an advantage for her anymore.

a comparison to a similarly mediocre LM unit like Dorcas might be better than comparing her to the best units in the game. Dorcas has very good strength but struggles to ORKO because he has cruddy speed. Lyn has very good speed but struggles to ORKO because she has poor strength and uses swords. Lyn has better accuracy, but this isn't FE6 where accuracy is at such a premium that hitting stuff is very special. Lyn has the Mani Katti, which is a very good sword, but Dorcas has 1-2 range. Dorcas has MUCH better concrete durability; Lyn can dodgetank.

They both have their uses and niches. neither is very optimal.

[DiogoJorge]

15 hours ago, Florete said:

I rely on Lyn dodging all the time and it's never let me down. Terrain, weapon triangle, and high natural avoid work wonders. For lances, don't forget lancereavers. And with terrain, weaker enemies have trouble hitting Lyn even if she is at WTD.

I honestly never imagined I'd have to tell someone Lyn is not as good as they are saying she is, considering I hold her in higher regard than most do. Florina's inability to use terrain is her one disadvantage. Is it really not enough that she has 7-8 move unhindered, 1-2 range options, and rescuing utility? Kent and Sain can't dodge tank necessarily (they still have enough avoid to dodge reliably at WTA), but their defenses are certainly good enough that they're not usually in danger, they have 7-8 move, enough SPD to double most of the game's enemies, full weapon triangle control on promotion, and rescuing utility. How is this worse than Lyn?

Not enough to me. Pretty much anyone with the CON can rescue (Hector, Oswin and the like) someone, rescuing is pretty banal stuff and it's not very important, and 1-2 range options aren't that great, since most of the time they don't finish the enemies during enemy phase and it still ends up being the player phase that finishes the job. Mages are the only ones who can do 1-2 range propely, but they are frail to be used to tank for most part.

Movement is only usefull for villages and securing chests, which don't happen very often, since most villages and chests can be reached with plenty of time to spare.

Florina is worse, she has less HP, SPD, and has bow weakness for most of the game until she gets Dolphin Shield way late into the game. Kent and Sain, I would rate them about equal to Lyn, maybe better or worse, but slightly so at that.

Edited February 28, 2018 by DiogoJorge

[Slumber]

3 hours ago, DiogoJorge said:

Not enough to me. Pretty much anyone with the CON can rescue (Hector, Oswin and the like) someone, rescuing is pretty banal stuff and it's not very important, and 1-2 range options aren't that great, since most of the time they don't finish the enemies during enemy phase and it still ends up being the player phase that finishes the job. Mages are the only ones who can do 1-2 range propely, but they are frail to be used to tank for most part.

Movement is only usefull for villages and securing chests, which don't happen very often, since most villages and chests can be reached with plenty of time to spare.

Florina is worse, she has less HP, SPD, and has bow weakness for most of the game until she gets Dolphin Shield way late into the game. Kent and Sain, I would rate them about equal to Lyn, maybe better or worse, but slightly so at that.

Buddy, I think you're in the wrong thread. 

"Movement isn't important" "Rescuing isn't important" "Only mages can 1-2 range effectively" etc. are all... So wrong for the discussion at hand that I don't even know where to start. 

They're arguments of somebody who likes to take their time and really only cares about raw stats on a unit. Which is fine, but it's an argument that the fandom at large hasn't really had in quite a long time. Even when not talking about optimal play(Again, reminding you for like the 3rd or 4th time now that this thread is largely about optimal play), most people agree that the things you just mentioned as not important are actually VERY important depending on the game. 

FE7 is one of those games where all 3 of those things are important. 

Taking "optimal" play into account, even a term as nebulous and ambiguous as it is, I think most people would, again, agree that movement, rescuing and 1-2 more or less makes the ideal optimal unit, even if what ultimately constitutes "optimal" isn't agreed upon. 

Edited February 28, 2018 by Slumber

[Aut]

2 hours ago, DiogoJorge said:

Not enough to me. Pretty much anyone with the CON can rescue (Hector, Oswin and the like) someone, rescuing is pretty banal stuff and it's not very important, and 1-2 range options aren't that great, since most of the time they don't finish the enemies during enemy phase and it still ends up being the player phase that finishes the job. Mages are the only ones who can do 1-2 range propely, but they are frail to be used to tank for most part.

Movement is only usefull for villages and securing chests, which don't happen very often, since most villages and chests can be reached with plenty of time to spare.

Florina is worse, she has less HP, SPD, and has bow weakness for most of the game until she gets Dolphin Shield way late into the game. Kent and Sain, I would rate them about equal to Lyn, maybe better or worse, but slightly so at that.

While Being able to rescue isn’t unique, being able to rescue and move is unique to mounts, and Flying mounts especially have very good movement options. While it’s not unique, she has the best rescuing utility. The units you mentioned have the worst rescuing utility, because they have very low movement and no canto, so they can’t do any rescue chains

1-2 range options versus unpromoted enemies and mages almost always works later in the game, as lategame unpromoted unit bulk is absolute garbage, same with all mage bulk (except Valkyries).

Mages are usually frail, but later on, they can usually take two or three hits from enemies, and lategame accuracy is fairly bad, so it’s definitely viable for them to see enemy phase action, especially Pent, who starts with a solid 11 Defense (14 with Louise nearby although that’s not always reasonable).

Movement is important even casually because it means more options for unit placement, help you finish kill boss maps faster, and once your mounts start to ORKO most enemies with ranged weapons you’re unmounted units fall behind. And movement helps a lot on certain maps (20, 22, 23x 28, 31) so training mounted units is a good idea.

Florina’s HP is always within 1 point of Lyn’s. The only time it’s not is when Florina beats Lyn’s HP immediately after promotion. Her speed is within 1 speed of Lyn until they reach points where both will double everything, so it’s not a significant lead.

The benefits of being a Flyer generally outweigh the cost. Even if Florina is being 2HKO’d by bows, it’s not like Lyn is doing much better, since she’s one of the frailest units in the game.

Kent and Sain are far better than Lyn, you can throw them lategame at hordes of varied units and they’ll all die, throw Lyn at them and some might have damage. Leagues apart

[DiogoJorge]

2 hours ago, Aut said:

While Being able to rescue isn’t unique, being able to rescue and move is unique to mounts, and Flying mounts especially have very good movement options. While it’s not unique, she has the best rescuing utility. The units you mentioned have the worst rescuing utility, because they have very low movement and no canto, so they can’t do any rescue chains

1-2 range options versus unpromoted enemies and mages almost always works later in the game, as lategame unpromoted unit bulk is absolute garbage, same with all mage bulk (except Valkyries).

Mages are usually frail, but later on, they can usually take two or three hits from enemies, and lategame accuracy is fairly bad, so it’s definitely viable for them to see enemy phase action, especially Pent, who starts with a solid 11 Defense (14 with Louise nearby although that’s not always reasonable).

Movement is important even casually because it means more options for unit placement, help you finish kill boss maps faster, and once your mounts start to ORKO most enemies with ranged weapons you’re unmounted units fall behind. And movement helps a lot on certain maps (20, 22, 23x 28, 31) so training mounted units is a good idea.

Florina’s HP is always within 1 point of Lyn’s. The only time it’s not is when Florina beats Lyn’s HP immediately after promotion. Her speed is within 1 speed of Lyn until they reach points where both will double everything, so it’s not a significant lead.

The benefits of being a Flyer generally outweigh the cost. Even if Florina is being 2HKO’d by bows, it’s not like Lyn is doing much better, since she’s one of the frailest units in the game.

Kent and Sain are far better than Lyn, you can throw them lategame at hordes of varied units and they’ll all die, throw Lyn at them and some might have damage. Leagues apart

Considering that I should keep the group together, rescuing and moving is usually not to my vantage. I don't need movement to rescue characters, and Hector has so much DEF that him rescuing someone isn't going to hurt him much. I don't want to do rescue chains, unless there's a long path clear of enemies, there's no reason why should I do rescue chains.

Considering the Javelins and Hand Axes MT, those are usually not very effective, I prefer bows when it comes to ranged combat, since they have higher MT later on. Not to mention that I can just bait enemies and demolish them in player phase to the same effect.

11 DEF isn't very impressive in lategame and Louise isn't worth deploying when Rebecca is better than her. Pent can do something of the sort, but it's still  limited.

I don't want to kill boss maps faster, first, most enemies must die, then one can focus on killing the boss. They don't fall behind because there will be tanking that needs to be done, which means that Paladins and the like must not move too far away from the group. Only 3-4 (a Pegasus, 1-2 Paladins and Eliwood Knight Lord), anything more is overkill and won't see use. There aren't that many villages to be rescued, usually.

Lyn has 70%, Florina has 60%. Lyn gains HP points more frequently, not to mention levels faster due to axe users and renewable Mani Katti.

Being a flier will help get a few kills against enemies on unreachable parts of the map, but is usually not going to happen often. It's not that great of a trait.

No they aren't. Mani Katti is a great weapon which they don't have acess to. Lyn has an advantage against more enemies as a result, her supports raise her critical rate drastically, not only that, but she can dodgetank and double more enemies. In order for Kent to be way better, he would need a DEF growth of at least 40% and a RES growth of 30%. He needs way more tanking ability to make up for the fact that he doesn't double as often nor has acess to a Armor and horseslaying weapon like Lyn does. Pretty much the same for Sain.

Edited February 28, 2018 by DiogoJorge

[Florete]

32 minutes ago, DiogoJorge said:

In order for Kent to be way better, he would need a DEF growth of at least 40% and a RES growth of 30%. He needs way more tanking ability to make up for the fact that he doesn't double as often nor has acess to a Armor and horseslaying weapon like Lyn does. Pretty much the same for Sain.

I don't want to go through everything so let me just get this apparent lack of doubling out of the way.

At level 20/2, Kent on average has 17 Spd, and enough Con to wield a lot of weapons without speed loss. Even as far as Ch 28x, only a Hero and maybe a couple mercenaries pass 13 attack speed (stats are pinned), despite that Kent should be at least a few levels higher by 28x. Sain is a bit lower, but non-promoted enemies have trouble even cracking 10 AS, and the game literally doesn't stop using these enemies until the finale. Not all promoted enemies are fast, either. Heroes are not that common.

Oh, and they do have access to armor and horseslaying weapons, but no one really cares because they suck.

[DiogoJorge]

2 hours ago, Florete said:

I don't want to go through everything so let me just get this apparent lack of doubling out of the way.

At level 20/2, Kent on average has 17 Spd, and enough Con to wield a lot of weapons without speed loss. Even as far as Ch 28x, only a Hero and maybe a couple mercenaries pass 13 attack speed (stats are pinned), despite that Kent should be at least a few levels higher by 28x. Sain is a bit lower, but non-promoted enemies have trouble even cracking 10 AS, and the game literally doesn't stop using these enemies until the finale. Not all promoted enemies are fast, either. Heroes are not that common.

Oh, and they do have access to armor and horseslaying weapons, but no one really cares because they suck.

With that kind of SPD, he can double some enemies, but Lyn still can double more and even avoid being doubled by some particularly fast bosses.

 

My point precisely. Those weapons suck, that's why Mani Katti ends up being better.

 

Edited February 28, 2018 by DiogoJorge

[Aut]

2 hours ago, DiogoJorge said:

Considering that I should keep the group together, rescuing and moving is usually not to my vantage. I don't need movement to rescue characters, and Hector has so much DEF that him rescuing someone isn't going to hurt him much. I don't want to do rescue chains, unless there's a long path clear of enemies, there's no reason why should I do rescue chains.

Considering the Javelins and Hand Axes MT, those are usually not very effective, I prefer bows when it comes to ranged combat, since they have higher MT later on. Not to mention that I can just bait enemies and demolish them in player phase to the same effect.

11 DEF isn't very impressive in lategame and Louise isn't worth deploying when Rebecca is better than her. Pent can do something of the sort, but it's still  limited.

I don't want to kill boss maps faster, first, most enemies must die, then one can focus on killing the boss. They don't fall behind because there will be tanking that needs to be done, which means that Paladins and the like must not move too far away from the group. Only 3-4 (a Pegasus, 1-2 Paladins and Eliwood Knight Lord), anything more is overkill and won't see use. There aren't that many villages to be rescued, usually.

Lyn has 70%, Florina has 60%. Lyn gains HP points more frequently, not to mention levels faster due to axe users and renewable Mani Katti.

Being a flier will help get a few kills against enemies on unreachable parts of the map, but is usually not going to happen often. It's not that great of a trait.

No they aren't. Mani Katti is a great weapon which they don't have acess to. Lyn has an advantage against more enemies as a result, her supports raise her critical rate drastically, not only that, but she can dodgetank and double more enemies. In order for Kent to be way better, he would need a DEF growth of at least 40% and a RES growth of 30%. He needs way more tanking ability to make up for the fact that he doesn't double as often nor has acess to a Armor and horseslaying weapon like Lyn does. Pretty much the same for Sain.

Keeping your units together is unnecessary, and even if it was that important you can still keep your units together and go fast by rescuedroping your lower move units. You may not need movement to rescue, but in order to rescue effectively you need Canto, which Hector doesn’t have.

Javelin and Hand axe might is enough to 2RKO basically all magic units and unpromoted lategame units. You are severely overestimating lategame bulk. Bows have the issue on not being useful for (arguably) the most important phase, enemy phase. And killing units on enemy phase is far more efficient than killing player phase.

11 Defense is good enough considering the poor lategame enemy quality. Rebecca has an extremely poor start, while Louise does most of the things Rebecca does combat wise + supporting one of the best lategame units.

The entire point of a kill boss chapter is that there is only one unit you have to kill, the boss. Play how you want, but you shouldn’t say that you have to kill all the enemies before killing the boss. It’s factually untrue.

You underestimate Paladin tanking ability. Most of them can take a good amount of hits, and if you’re worried, just calculate it. You can physic them up if they’re low/ have them use a healing item, but there’s no real reason not to move forward with them if they’ll survive.

You’re putting an arbitrary limit on the amount of mounted units, you’re only limited by the amount of deployment slots you have, not anything else.

Lyn is A. Never above Florina in HP by more than one point at the same level (so that growth nonsense is irrelevent), and B. Not guarenteed to be higher level than Florina. How high level they are is dependent on how many kills you give them, so ultimately their level is decided by the player. Many people choose to level up Florina more, I’d even say most do, but they aren’t in here telling people which one will be higher level.

High move + Being able to ignore terrain are both very helpful traits, especially for maps like Ch.16 Ch. 17, Ch. 17x, Ch 18, Ch. 19, Ch. 19x, Ch. 20, Ch.21, Ch.22, Ch.23, Ch.23x, Ch. 24W, Ch. 24G, Ch. 25, Ch. 26, Ch.27K, Ch. 27J, Ch. 28, Ch. 28x, Ch. 29, Ch. 31, Ch. 32, and Final. I only listed chapters I thought I could reasonably defend as being benefitial to one of those two traits.

Mani Katti is decent, but Lyn usually puts herself at risk versus the enemies that it’s good against. Lyn’s avoid isn’t that much better, especially since they can use the weapon triangle against the enemies that’s relevant for, so they’ll often be getting +15 avoid based on the weapon they use, and will always be able to use a weapon that’s equal to or better than Lyn’s for dodgetanking, so she’s not exactly winning by much if she’s winning at all. Supports don’t matter, outside of Lyn*Florina C all of them take way to long to even consider. It’s already been pointed out, but Kent and Sain are basically doubling everything Lyn is, the only exception is basically just Heroes, Valkyries and Swordmasters, all of which are relatively rare enemy types, and one of which Lyn can’t usually enemy phase. 

[ping]

2 hours ago, DiogoJorge said:

Lyn has 70%, Florina has 60%. Lyn gains HP points more frequently

10% growths equals (on average, ofc) 1 HP / 10 levels. Very impressive. Meanwhile, Florina starts with +1 HP over Lyn and gains 5 HP when promoting, compared to Lyn's +3, which means that their HP is equal at level 20/12. At 20/20 (which is completely irrelevant, but for the the sake of completion...), Lyn leads by 0.8 points (zero point eight). Again, very impressive.

At base level, Florina can survive a physical hit of 20 Might, or two hits that add up to 24 Mt (i.e. 2x12 or suchlike). Lyn can tank one 17-Mt hit, or two hits w/ 19 Mt in total. Standing in a forest changes that to 1x18, or 21 in two hits.

At level 15, Florina (~ 25 HP, 6 Def) can survive a single 30-Mt blow, or 36 in two hits. Lyn (26 HP, 5 Def) is minimally worse on open terrain (one point of Def is better than one HP if she can take more than one hit) and even more minimally ( :D ) better in a forest (literally by one HP, or less if we consider the decimals of their average stats).

If you want to say that Lyn's higher HP growth makes it more reliable: No. For Florina, more of her HP comes from base stats and promotional gains, so the probability curve for her HP at a given level is slightly more narrow than for Lyn's.

tl;dr: Saying that Lyn is more bulky than Florina is silly. At base level, Florina is a little bit more bulky (1 HP, 2 Def); Lyn does catch up over time, but very, very slowly - at level 20/12, she's ahead by half a point of Def.

[Aut]

10 minutes ago, DiogoJorge said:

With that kind of SPD, he can double some enemies, but Lyn still can double more and even avoid being doubled by some particularly fast bosses.

 

My point precisely. Those weapons suck, that's why Mani Katti ends up being better.

 

Doubling loses it’s value as there are less and less units that 1 unit doubles that another doesn’t. Lategame the difference between Lyn’s and Kent’s speed might make the difference for 10 enemies. It’s effects are extremely minimal, especially since his offense is so much better versus enemies that they do double.

Mani Katti is identical in hit and might to the armorslayer. Crit doesn’t really matter since Lyn’s crit isn’t exactly reliable even with Mani Katti. Weight isn’t an issue to a promoted Kent and Sain. It’s Horseslaying abilities aren’t super noteworthy, because enemy horse units tend to be easy for Sain and Kent to ORKO and lategame a Silver Lance hit’s as hard as the Mani Katti. Mani Katti isn’t that much better than your other options.

[Paper Jam]

Even after gaining enough speed to double an enemy, additional speed is still useful for dodging.

[DiogoJorge]

Alright, to make this short. 

Paladins shouldn't stray too far from the group, their movement usually ends up redundant as a result. Their movement only shows their true usefullness when villages and chests are involved. Canto makes them better rescuers, sure, but if you are going to rescue someone, is usually not to move them around but rather to protect them from a position where they are in danger.

Lyn has Mani Katti which gives her an vantage against a larger variety of enemies, it doesn't matter if they use lances, since if Lyn destroys them, she can be healed and she won't have to worry about them in enemy phase. Lyn can dodgetank pretty much any weapon that isn't lances, and even then, making use of terrain bonus will make it hard for even lances to hit.

Falcon Knights are weak against arrows and like Paladins shouldn't stray from the group, they might slay the ocasional enemy that isn't reachable by land, but there aren't many of those opportunities.

Survival should take priority over efficiency.

[Just call me AL]

17 minutes ago, DiogoJorge said:

Alright, to make this short. 

Paladins shouldn't stray too far from the group, their movement usually ends up redundant as a result. Their movement only shows their true usefullness when villages and chests are involved. Canto makes them better rescuers, sure, but if you are going to rescue someone, is usually not to move them around but rather to protect them from a position where they are in danger.

Lyn has Mani Katti which gives her an vantage against a larger variety of enemies, it doesn't matter if they use lances, since if Lyn destroys them, she can be healed and she won't have to worry about them in enemy phase. Lyn can dodgetank pretty much any weapon that isn't lances, and even then, making use of terrain bonus will make it hard for even lances to hit.

Falcon Knights are weak against arrows and like Paladins shouldn't stray from the group, they might slay the ocasional enemy that isn't reachable by land, but there aren't many of those opportunities.

Survival should take priority over efficiency.

Literally most of the units you have around midgame at the earliest should be able to handle a few enemies here and there, with breaks, with no problem. This is a common thing in TRPGs/SRPGs.

Heck, I could even name a particular non-FE example to illustrate this. And the example I'm thinking of has units all level up by class.

Edited February 28, 2018 by Just call me AL

[DiogoJorge]

10 hours ago, Just call me AL said:

Literally most of the units you have around midgame at the earliest should be able to handle a few enemies here and there, with breaks, with no problem. This is a common thing in TRPGs/SRPGs.

Heck, I could even name a particular non-FE example to illustrate this. And the example I'm thinking of has units all level up by class.

You are talking about Tactics Ogre I assume?

Of course they should, be being at a proper level, which won't happen if I were to hold them back, when there's no reason to do so. Lyn and plenty of others deserve those levels. By doing so, they prove their worth.

Edited March 1, 2018 by DiogoJorge

[Titamon]

Diogo ruining another topic I see 

[ping]

@DiogoJorge, I would ask you to put some numbers behind your claims. Right now, you just ignore every evidence that is brought up against you.

• Why shouldn't more mobile units utilize their higher movement and "not stray too far from the group"? And even so, why shouldn't they use their movement+canto to help the entire group to move faster?
• What is the "larger variety of enemies" that the Mani Katti gives Lyn an advantage against? It's pretty much only Cavs/Paladins, since the Armorslayer is about as good as the MK against knights and generals. Besides, if the enemy wields a lance, a Silver Lance (14 Mt) is exactly as strong as the MK with effective damage (2x(8-1) = 14 Mt). Without the effective damage, it's just as strong as a Steel Sword (Sain and Kent only lose one AS before promotion from those, too). Relying on a crit does not seem to be a reliable strategy at all - if Lyn has 30% crit against an enemy, it's still a coinflip whether or not she crits at least once, assuming she doubles (the chance of not critting would be .7² = 49%)
• What are Lyn's advantages over other unit, precisely? Yes, her avoid is among the highest (if not the highest) in the game, as long as the weapon triangle agrees, but at what points of the game is her chance of survival against a group of enemies higher than other units? Where can she actually tank an enemy phase that other units could not? Can she actually retaliate against all, or at least most of the enemies like Lance or Axe users can? Because if not, then exposing her on enemy phase is just wasting potential damage output.

The way you argue makes me think that you just give her a bunch of XP in Lyn mode, plus both statboosters, and compare her to units that did not go through the same level of favouritism. FE7 is a game with rather low enemy stats (and notably flat scaling as the game progresses), so practically every unit can do reasonably well at worst. If you want to claim that Lyn is "one of the best units in the game", you'll have to point out what separates her from other units that have undeniable advantages over her, like 1-2 range, higher movement, or canto. If you can't do that (and present evidence), then maybe you should consider that you might be wrong about Lyn's qualities as a unit, and that "I like using X" isn't quite the same as "X is very good".

[Shadow Mir]

17 hours ago, Just call me AL said:

Heck, I could even name a particular non-FE example to illustrate this. And the example I'm thinking of has units all level up by class.

Would a guess of "Valkyria Chronicles" be accurate?

17 hours ago, DiogoJorge said:

Alright, to make this short. 

Paladins shouldn't stray too far from the group, their movement usually ends up redundant as a result. Their movement only shows their true usefullness when villages and chests are involved. Canto makes them better rescuers, sure, but if you are going to rescue someone, is usually not to move them around but rather to protect them from a position where they are in danger.

Lyn has Mani Katti which gives her an vantage against a larger variety of enemies, it doesn't matter if they use lances, since if Lyn destroys them, she can be healed and she won't have to worry about them in enemy phase. Lyn can dodgetank pretty much any weapon that isn't lances, and even then, making use of terrain bonus will make it hard for even lances to hit.

Falcon Knights are weak against arrows and like Paladins shouldn't stray from the group, they might slay the ocasional enemy that isn't reachable by land, but there aren't many of those opportunities.

Survival should take priority over efficiency.

What about in Sword of Seals, then?

Sure, except most of the enemies it's good against are units that she has to eat a counter from (read: everything except nomads and nomad troopers). Making matters worse, most of those same classes use lances.

The effective bonus is only double might, as opposed to triple, and why the hell should they not go out ahead and pick off troublesome enemies?

That point might hold water in some other game that didn't throw unpromoted enemy units at you like Halloween candy. Not so much here.

Edited March 1, 2018 by Levant Mir Celestia

[SavageVolug]

What mode are we assuming is being used here? Because depending on if you are playing Normal or Hard mode can drastically change up who is good or not and by how much.

[DiogoJorge]

7 hours ago, Titamon said:

Diogo ruining another topic I see 

What you are talking about? TC asked about Lyn, so I gave my own statement on the matter.

[DiogoJorge]

4 hours ago, Levant Mir Celestia said:

Would a guess of "Valkyria Chronicles" be accurate?

What about in Sword of Seals, then?

Sure, except most of the enemies it's good against are units that she has to eat a counter from (read: everything except nomads and nomad troopers). Making matters worse, most of those same classes use lances.

The effective bonus is only double might, as opposed to triple, and why the hell should they not go out ahead and pick off troublesome enemies?

That point might hold water in some other game that didn't throw unpromoted enemy units at you like Halloween candy. Not so much here.

 

What you mean Sword of Seals?

She can endure a counter just fine, and she will be usually avoiding attacks if those come from an axe wielder and all other WT neutral weapons to a slightly less extent.

I don't see what's the problem. I won't move my units away from the group, unless absolutely necessary. If one is going to pick on units, that's fine, as long as they are alone and thus don't represent much of a threat. Otherwise, the mounted units will know their place and stick with the group.

Edited March 1, 2018 by DiogoJorge

[DiogoJorge]

3 hours ago, SavageVolug said:

What mode are we assuming is being used here? Because depending on if you are playing Normal or Hard mode can drastically change up who is good or not and by how much.

Hector Hard Mode obviously, it does little to change Lyn's ability, since enemies still fall by the droves against her, since some of them are horsemen or armors.

[ping]

8 minutes ago, DiogoJorge said:

Hector Hard Mode obviously, it does little to change Lyn's ability, since enemies still fall by the droves against her, since some of them are horsemen or armors.

I'm sure that if you repeat that claim without backing it up just about 15 more times, everyone in the thread is going to agree with you, winning you the argument by sheer attrition.