Jump to content

How is using only 3 units in Lyn's Story "optimal"?


Just call me AL
 Share

Recommended Posts

4 hours ago, ping said:

@DiogoJorge, I would ask you to put some numbers behind your claims. Right now, you just ignore every evidence that is brought up against you.

  • Why shouldn't more mobile units utilize their higher movement and "not stray too far from the group"? And even so, why shouldn't they use their movement+canto to help the entire group to move faster?
  • What is the "larger variety of enemies" that the Mani Katti gives Lyn an advantage against? It's pretty much only Cavs/Paladins, since the Armorslayer is about as good as the MK against knights and generals. Besides, if the enemy wields a lance, a Silver Lance (14 Mt) is exactly as strong as the MK with effective damage (2x(8-1) = 14 Mt). Without the effective damage, it's just as strong as a Steel Sword (Sain and Kent only lose one AS before promotion from those, too). Relying on a crit does not seem to be a reliable strategy at all - if Lyn has 30% crit against an enemy, it's still a coinflip whether or not she crits at least once, assuming she doubles (the chance of not critting would be .7² = 49%)
  • What are Lyn's advantages over other unit, precisely? Yes, her avoid is among the highest (if not the highest) in the game, as long as the weapon triangle agrees, but at what points of the game is her chance of survival against a group of enemies higher than other units? Where can she actually tank an enemy phase that other units could not? Can she actually retaliate against all, or at least most of the enemies like Lance or Axe users can? Because if not, then exposing her on enemy phase is just wasting potential damage output.

The way you argue makes me think that you just give her a bunch of XP in Lyn mode, plus both statboosters, and compare her to units that did not go through the same level of favouritism. FE7 is a game with rather low enemy stats (and notably flat scaling as the game progresses), so practically every unit can do reasonably well at worst. If you want to claim that Lyn is "one of the best units in the game", you'll have to point out what separates her from other units that have undeniable advantages over her, like 1-2 range, higher movement, or canto. If you can't do that (and present evidence), then maybe you should consider that you might be wrong about Lyn's qualities as a unit, and that "I like using X" isn't quite the same as "X is very good".

I'm not ignoring them though.

-It's to my disadvantage to have the group separate. The only time it's valid to separate characters is during Victory or Death chapter, and even then you should have 2 groups composed of at least an healer and someone with tanking ability and a few characters to help clean up.

- They are axe fighters, armors, horsemen, mages, bow users and sword wielders, that's considerable variety. She ends demolishing a good deal of those due to doubling them all and them either having a weakness to Mani Katti or having poor DEF. On top of that, she has a good RES growth and thus is usually taking little damage from mages. She utterly demolishes Ursula in Battle before Dawn for instance.

- It's higher, because enemy hits rarely go above 30%-40%, unless they have WT, as long as you make use of terrain bonuses their hit rate will be even lower. Axefighters for instance are almost guaranteed to have 0%, specially if she has supports. Retaliating isn't necessary, as long as she can survive, that's already good enough, to bait archers and mages plays to my advantage. I don't need damage during enemy phase most of the time, with the exception of a few chapters

Not really, I only give her Seraph Robe, wich she deserves. The energy ring either goes to Matthew or Florina. It's not favouritism, it's making good use of her, since the Mani Katti is the best weapon in Lyn Mode and it's a waste to not use it. Kent and the others get enough experience, so I don't see why is this an issue. 1-2 range isn't much of an advantage, Javelins and Hand Axes don't have the MT of higher level weapons, not to mention that archers can bait ranged enemies, so the only reason to use 1-2 range is against other 1-2 ranges.

I'm not going to consider that. I've played the game for a decade now, and Lyn never disapoints.

Edited by DiogoJorge
Link to comment
Share on other sites

  • Replies 310
  • Created
  • Last Reply

Top Posters In This Topic

1 hour ago, DiogoJorge said:

 

What you mean Sword of Seals?

She can endure a counter just fine, and she will be usually avoiding attacks if those come from an axe wielder and all other WT neutral weapons to a slightly less extent.

I don't see what's the problem. I won't move my units away from the group, unless absolutely necessary. If one is going to pick on units, that's fine, as long as they are alone and thus don't represent much of a threat. Otherwise, the mounted units will know their place and stick with the group.

I brought it up because (1) said game has bigger maps than Blazing Blade, (2) there's time limits on some maps if you want the best ending, and (3) as a result of (1), non-mounted units are likely not seeing action unless you either slow down regularly or rescue them.

From what, exactly?? And sure, she might be able to dodge axe users easily, but so can just about every sword user, so that isn't worth bragging about.

Define "absolutely necessary".

Link to comment
Share on other sites

1 hour ago, Levant Mir Celestia said:

I brought it up because (1) said game has bigger maps than Blazing Blade, (2) there's time limits on some maps if you want the best ending, and (3) as a result of (1), non-mounted units are likely not seeing action unless you either slow down regularly or rescue them.

From what, exactly?? And sure, she might be able to dodge axe users easily, but so can just about every sword user, so that isn't worth bragging about.

Define "absolutely necessary".

In bigger maps, the same rule applies unless there are villages to be saved. Take for instance, Genealogy, mounted has a lot more value there, because there are way more villages to save, in pretty much everymap and you are encouraged to rush a good deal of those maps, at least until all villages are saved and whichever units, and other additions that one can obtain by going fast.

In Binding Blade, it does have some more villages and treasures, so their value would a bit higher than the mounted ones from Blazing Sword.

Other swordusers usually have 30%-50%. Lyn has 0% or almost zero chance of being hit by axe wielders.

If there are villages to be saved fast or if there's a dangerous enemy that needs to be picked on, as long as the mounted isn't endangered in the process.

Edited by DiogoJorge
Link to comment
Share on other sites

3 hours ago, DiogoJorge said:

In bigger maps, the same rule applies unless there are villages to be saved. Take for instance, Genealogy, mounted has a lot more value there, because there are way more villages to save, in pretty much everymap and you are encouraged to rush a good deal of those maps, at least until all villages are saved and whichever units, and other additions that one can obtain by going fast.

In Binding Blade, it does have some more villages and treasures, so their value would a bit higher than the mounted ones from Blazing Sword.

Other swordusers usually have 30%-50%. Lyn has 0% or almost zero chance of being hit by axe wielders.

If there are villages to be saved fast or if there's a dangerous enemy that needs to be picked on, as long as the mounted isn't endangered in the process.

The thing is, the more conservative you play, without making the most out of your units/resources in an efficient manner, rating units becomes even more arbitrary/difficult since what are we rating them for at this point? Over-killing foes? Clearing while losing the least HP? Does turn count even matter? Not that the latter is the be all, end all for rating units, but it's strongly factored in, and high mobility units just happen to be "efficient" in that they can cover the most ground on any given turn. Most FE7 enemies can be described as "fodder" at best, so clearing waves of enemies with a high mobility, 1-2 range unit can be sufficient for a section of the map.

FE7 even has a ranking system which does a pretty good job at rating 'efficiency' in general. Not perfect, but encompasses enough factors that tie into what would be considered as such. It's a good enough method to apply that to any other FE in terms of rating units.

Survivability is pretty binary. Either you survive or you don't. An excess amount isn't required, otherwise Generals would be top tier (kinda). Instead, any factors beyond reliably surviving are more important, such as turn counts, efficiency in funds or even just coming down to how easy they are to use and clear maps with. The latter is probably the best way to summarize it. "How much easier does this unit make the game from start to finish" and "what do I sacrifice in terms of efficiency if I don't use them?".

Going back to Lyn, she isn't exactly winning many medals for a fair few of these factors. 1-range means she cannot kill a good handful of enemies on enemy phase when many other units can cleanly sweep groups of enemies at a time. Her survivability is RNG as opposed to others who can reliably survive. Her movement is average. And while the Mani Katti is neat, unfortunately effective damage is x2 and once you hit mid/late game, either targets for it aren't overly common, but those that do exist can be 1RKOed by most units you have with any shred of offensive capability, like against tier 1 cavalry/knights (which Lyn will often have WTD against, so avoiding becomes less reliable). Then there's all the EXP you have to sink into a unit which, while indeed forced at times, could go to any other run-of-the-mill 1-2 range sweeper that can clear the game more quickly and more reliably. Otherwise, Lyn doesn't have stellar offense against other units, being much more reliant on crits that she innately doesn't even have compared to Swordmasters, who also aren't particularly stellar in this game.

She isn't awful, but she doesn't exactly stand out in ways that make the game easier or efficient. "Dodge tanking" isn't exactly a huge factor in a game where enemies are typically weak enough that you don't need to rely on it whatsoever, so it really just comes down to secured survivability vs. RNG. Lyn may well survive a group of enemies due to avoid, but no matter what, she isn't counter-attacking half of them anyway which was the other factor. There's also the late promotion compared to a lot other units etc... she has quite a number of things against her that you cannot just arbitrarily dismiss. 

 

However, use Lyn if you enjoy using her. I always tend to do so myself. Tiers or efficiency shouldn't dictate who you should use. It's just that, unfortunately, some units just have it easier than others. Objectively, the easiest and "best" way to clear the game is to just use every Paladin/Flier/Priscilla/Pre-promote and steam roll through it. You'll have more than enough survivability while clearing the game faster with little effort. Not that you're forced to play that way however, and units like Lyn still have their strengths -- it's just that they take extra effort and resources/time. That's all it comes down to.

Edited by Dunal
Link to comment
Share on other sites

9 hours ago, Levant Mir Celestia said:

Would a guess of "Valkyria Chronicles" be accurate?

You got it. It's especially worth noting that, if especially fanart is to be taken into account, how a single scout can fell an enemy squadron is pretty much a meme for a reason. That's the comparison I was bringing up.

40 minutes ago, Dunal said:

She isn't awful, but she doesn't exactly stand out in ways that make the game easier or efficient. 

Unfortunately, in the eyes of some people, including the group whose viewpoints prompted me to create this topic, the fact that she doesn't stand out in ways that can make the game easier or efficient is what makes her "awful".

Link to comment
Share on other sites

9 hours ago, Dunal said:

The thing is, the more conservative you play, without making the most out of your units/resources in an efficient manner, rating units becomes even more arbitrary/difficult since what are we rating them for at this point? Over-killing foes? Clearing while losing the least HP? Does turn count even matter? Not that the latter is the be all, end all for rating units, but it's strongly factored in, and high mobility units just happen to be "efficient" in that they can cover the most ground on any given turn. Most FE7 enemies can be described as "fodder" at best, so clearing waves of enemies with a high mobility, 1-2 range unit can be sufficient for a section of the map.

FE7 even has a ranking system which does a pretty good job at rating 'efficiency' in general. Not perfect, but encompasses enough factors that tie into what would be considered as such. It's a good enough method to apply that to any other FE in terms of rating units.

Survivability is pretty binary. Either you survive or you don't. An excess amount isn't required, otherwise Generals would be top tier (kinda). Instead, any factors beyond reliably surviving are more important, such as turn counts, efficiency in funds or even just coming down to how easy they are to use and clear maps with. The latter is probably the best way to summarize it. "How much easier does this unit make the game from start to finish" and "what do I sacrifice in terms of efficiency if I don't use them?".

Going back to Lyn, she isn't exactly winning many medals for a fair few of these factors. 1-range means she cannot kill a good handful of enemies on enemy phase when many other units can cleanly sweep groups of enemies at a time. Her survivability is RNG as opposed to others who can reliably survive. Her movement is average. And while the Mani Katti is neat, unfortunately effective damage is x2 and once you hit mid/late game, either targets for it aren't overly common, but those that do exist can be 1RKOed by most units you have with any shred of offensive capability, like against tier 1 cavalry/knights (which Lyn will often have WTD against, so avoiding becomes less reliable). Then there's all the EXP you have to sink into a unit which, while indeed forced at times, could go to any other run-of-the-mill 1-2 range sweeper that can clear the game more quickly and more reliably. Otherwise, Lyn doesn't have stellar offense against other units, being much more reliant on crits that she innately doesn't even have compared to Swordmasters, who also aren't particularly stellar in this game.

She isn't awful, but she doesn't exactly stand out in ways that make the game easier or efficient. "Dodge tanking" isn't exactly a huge factor in a game where enemies are typically weak enough that you don't need to rely on it whatsoever, so it really just comes down to secured survivability vs. RNG. Lyn may well survive a group of enemies due to avoid, but no matter what, she isn't counter-attacking half of them anyway which was the other factor. There's also the late promotion compared to a lot other units etc... she has quite a number of things against her that you cannot just arbitrarily dismiss. 

 

However, use Lyn if you enjoy using her. I always tend to do so myself. Tiers or efficiency shouldn't dictate who you should use. It's just that, unfortunately, some units just have it easier than others. Objectively, the easiest and "best" way to clear the game is to just use every Paladin/Flier/Priscilla/Pre-promote and steam roll through it. You'll have more than enough survivability while clearing the game faster with little effort. Not that you're forced to play that way however, and units like Lyn still have their strengths -- it's just that they take extra effort and resources/time. That's all it comes down to.

The only thing that matters is survival first, and to overpower enemies whenever possible, efficiency is secondary. If I can finish a long map in less than 25 turns, that's enough. There are only a few maps where efficiency is more important (Battle before Dawn and the like).

In order to rate units, one must take into account their growths, bases and their averages as well their availability. Considering that Lyn has Kent beat in some growths and bases, while he has his own edge in other stats, it's only fair that I see them as equals

At this point, it's pretty much a stale mate. So let's just agree to disagree.

Edited by DiogoJorge
Link to comment
Share on other sites

2 hours ago, DiogoJorge said:

The only thing that matters is survival first, and to overpower enemies whenever possible, efficiency is secondary. 

What you're not realizing, though, is that the two can go hand in hand in this game, as it can in other RPGs like FE. And besides, anyone can beat the game while playing defensively.

Edited by Just call me AL
Link to comment
Share on other sites

15 minutes ago, Just call me AL said:

What you're not realizing, though, is that the two can go hand in hand in this game, as it can in other RPGs like FE. And besides, anyone can beat the game while playing defensively.

Not at all, there are some maps where enemies will head to you from the get-go , if you play by turtling in some corner, then you will be overwhelmed by enemy units, making avoiding a single death impossible.

When tanking, one must ensure that there is no danger to either the tanks or any other characters they don't cover. Sometimes, the best thing to do is to force the enemy to divide by baiting them with 2 tanks, thus making it more manageable. This is a proper tactic that should be employed when needed.

Efficiency isn't useless, as some maps have villages and trasures to save. But one should priotize survival first.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

6 hours ago, DiogoJorge said:

Not at all, there are some maps where enemies will head to you from the get-go , if you play by turtling in some corner, then you will be overwhelmed by enemy units, making avoiding a single death impossible.

When tanking, one must ensure that there is no danger to either the tanks or any other characters they don't cover. Sometimes, the best thing to do is to force the enemy to divide by baiting them with 2 tanks, thus making it more manageable. This is a proper tactic that should be employed when needed.

Efficiency isn't useless, as some maps have villages and trasures to save. But one should priotize survival first.

Again, survivability (as in, having no casualties) is to be assumed when playing through the game. Yes, you should definitely prioritize survival, that goes without saying. However, merely surviving isn't exactly a difficult feat, especially in a game like FE7. Once you have established a strategy that has a guaranteed success rate to 'survive' (which is possible with any combination of units, really, if you play slow enough), then you need to consider how efficient/easily you can get through the game while maintaining that quota. What limits can a unit be pushed or utilized while still surviving (with the least amount of effort), in other words. That is how units are typically rated.

Merely surviving doesn't take a lot of player skill or unit power, so testing the limits (vs. the ease of use) of each unit or the player themselves is the differentiating factor here. The limits are often then dependant on the difficulty of the game or obstacles you're expected to overcome. In what ways can you utilize a unit that you cannot do with another unit? That is the question. If a unit is tankier than another, but they both survive in the exact same scenarios, then that extra "survivability" is going to be a non-factor outside of healing. Classic case of Paladins vs. Generals in most games. Yeah, the General may take less damage, but the Paladin can still survive while pulling off a lot more stunts or different strategies, like clearing an area of the map faster or just generally being able to accomplish more on any given turn. There is little benefit to the General since "surviving more" doesn't really make much sense. Either the unit survives or they don't. As an extreme example, a unit with 50 DEF isn't going to be much better than a unit with 30 DEF, if at all (in the context of FE7). The 30 DEF unit is still practically invincible, but if they have +1 movement? They become better than the 50 DEF unit because the game doesn't even demand 30 DEF to begin with, let alone 50 -- so the extra movement just allows them to be more flexible and accomplish things easier and faster. Depending on the player's skill level, more can be done with the unit with higher mobility in this case. 

As an example, if maximising survivability was the primary factor, then Wallace would be better than Lyn and a good amount of other units. However, since Lyn can be used sufficiently (despite her innate lack of durability) while surviving well enough (since a game like FE7 does not demand a huge amount of survivability to begin with), then her offence and movement matter a lot more. There are more opportunities to utilize Lyn in more efficient ways and get the job done.  

That all said, being able to reliably survive differs from game to game and that definitely matters when it comes to unit rating. Marcus would be notably worse off if FE7 had higher requirements lategame for surviving or killing off enemies such as in say, FE12 or Conquest (although would still be high tier at worst due to his early game contribution and class. But if early game was no longer the hardest/slowest stage of the game, then it would certainly effect him). While Wallace would be better since his innate durability would actually matter rather than being unnecessary (if enemy phase had a bigger focus on surviving as opposed to killing off as many enemies as possible). Meanwhile in say, Conquest, Benny would be worse off if the mid/lategame becomes tamer than it is, since the extra 'survivability' is no longer all that useful.  Meanwhile, Peri possibly shoots up the tier list since her stats are now sufficient enough to clean up groups of enemies quickly/efficiently due to the extra movement. It's all within context to the game itself. Difficulty has a massive impact on what units are efficient or weak. Easier games like FE7 tend to promote movement and utility over raw stats, while harder games like FE12 require far higher stats for a unit to be sufficient (one of the only games where unit growth is actually a considerable factor).

 

However, if the idea behind "mitigating the most amount of damage as possible" as opposed to just reliably surviving is considered into unit rating, then some things would change. I personally wouldn't completely dismiss that idea, but I also wouldn't say it should be a huge factor in unit worth, since there is no real consequence in taking extra damage so long as you don't die. There isn't any real consequence in taking more turns to clear a map either (most of the time), but it does more strongly factor in player skill and unit power as a whole, and testing the limits of each unit.

Edited by Dunal
Link to comment
Share on other sites

1 hour ago, Dunal said:

Again, survivability (as in, having no casualties) is to be assumed when playing through the game. Yes, you should definitely prioritize survival, that goes without saying. However, merely surviving isn't exactly a difficult feat, especially in a game like FE7. Once you have established a strategy that has a guaranteed success rate to 'survive' (which is possible with any combination of units, really, if you play slow enough), then you need to consider how efficient/easily you can get through the game while maintaining that quota. What limits can a unit be pushed or utilized while still surviving (with the least amount of effort), in other words. That is how units are typically rated.

Merely surviving doesn't take a lot of player skill or unit power, so testing the limits (vs. the ease of use) of each unit or the player themselves is the differentiating factor here. The limits are often then dependant on the difficulty of the game or obstacles you're expected to overcome. In what ways can you utilize a unit that you cannot do with another unit? That is the question. If a unit is tankier than another, but they both survive in the exact same scenarios, then that extra "survivability" is going to be a non-factor outside of healing. Classic case of Paladins vs. Generals in most games. Yeah, the General may take less damage, but the Paladin can still survive while pulling off a lot more stunts or different strategies, like clearing an area of the map faster or just generally being able to accomplish more on any given turn. There is little benefit to the General since "surviving more" doesn't really make much sense. Either the unit survives or they don't. As an extreme example, a unit with 50 DEF isn't going to be much better than a unit with 30 DEF, if at all (in the context of FE7). The 30 DEF unit is still practically invincible, but if they have +1 movement? They become better than the 50 DEF unit because the game doesn't even demand 30 DEF to begin with, let alone 50 -- so the extra movement just allows them to be more flexible and accomplish things easier and faster. Depending on the player's skill level, more can be done with the unit with higher mobility in this case. 

As an example, if maximising survivability was the primary factor, then Wallace would be better than Lyn and a good amount of other units. However, since Lyn can be used sufficiently (despite her innate lack of durability) while surviving well enough (since a game like FE7 does not demand a huge amount of survivability to begin with), then her offence and movement matter a lot more. There are more opportunities to utilize Lyn in more efficient ways and get the job done.  

That all said, being able to reliably survive differs from game to game and that definitely matters when it comes to unit rating. Marcus would be notably worse off if FE7 had higher requirements lategame for surviving or killing off enemies such as in say, FE12 or Conquest (although would still be high tier at worst due to his early game contribution and class. But if early game was no longer the hardest/slowest stage of the game, then it would certainly effect him). While Wallace would be better since his innate durability would actually matter rather than being unnecessary (if enemy phase had a bigger focus on surviving as opposed to killing off as many enemies as possible). Meanwhile in say, Conquest, Benny would be worse off if the mid/lategame becomes tamer than it is, since the extra 'survivability' is no longer all that useful.  Meanwhile, Peri possibly shoots up the tier list since her stats are now sufficient enough to clean up groups of enemies quickly/efficiently due to the extra movement. It's all within context to the game itself. Difficulty has a massive impact on what units are efficient or weak. Easier games like FE7 tend to promote movement and utility over raw stats, while harder games like FE12 require far higher stats for a unit to be sufficient (one of the only games where unit growth is actually a considerable factor).

 

However, if the idea behind "mitigating the most amount of damage as possible" as opposed to just reliably surviving is considered into unit rating, then some things would change. I personally wouldn't completely dismiss that idea, but I also wouldn't say it should be a huge factor in unit worth, since there is no real consequence in taking extra damage so long as you don't die. There isn't any real consequence in taking more turns to clear a map either (most of the time), but it does more strongly factor in player skill and unit power as a whole, and testing the limits of each unit.

 

You are forgetting that Wallace can't double, and there's more to survivability than just tanking. Lyn can double, so she can get a good deal of enemies out of the equation, preventing them from being a problem. Slaying problematic enemies are also part of surviving.

Edited by DiogoJorge
Link to comment
Share on other sites

30 minutes ago, DiogoJorge said:

 

You are forgetting that Wallace can't double, and there's more to survivability than just tanking. Lyn can double, so she can get a good deal of enemies out of the equation, preventing them from being a problem. Slaying problematic enemies are also part of surviving.

Except those with range, since she's sword locked. Her promotion doesn't help much, since she gets bows, which instead leave her helpless against melee enemies.

Edited by Levant Mir Celestia
Link to comment
Share on other sites

1 hour ago, DiogoJorge said:

 

You are forgetting that Wallace can't double, and there's more to survivability than just tanking. Lyn can double, so she can get a good deal of enemies out of the equation, preventing them from being a problem.

Forgetting? I did mention her 'offence' which attributes to her doubling, of course. Wallace hits harder and can retaliate at 2 range, so doubling is really the only real factor there. But I'd consider it enough to be in Lyn's favour. Movement and availability being the main benefiters here. Although, Wallace may not be the best example since his bases aren't exactly stellar, but his main problem is that the one thing he's supposed to be good at is rather redundant in this game. 

Not really sure what you mean by the latter statement, since she isn't exactly well equipped for clearing out groups of enemies by herself due to lack of 2-range. She isn't exactly weak on player phase, but she'll suffer if she takes a hit compared to most other units and can even struggle to 1RKO without effective damage. Really though, if she had a common 1-2 range option (like a wind edge), she would be significantly better (and so would Guy) at least with Lyn Mode. That's really her main downfall. 

Thing is, movement and 1-2 range becomes the easiest thing to abuse the tamer the difficulty is in FE, so typically be 'best' units in FE7 in particular would have access to those. Someone like Marcus or Isadora are objectively less powerful than some other units in the lategame, but because enemies are quite weak, they can get by with their extra utility/flexibility compared to say, Lyn or Guy. However, if enemies were stronger, Marcus/Isadora would struggle a lot more and Lyn/Guy would benefit from being more player phased focused. Since player phase matters a lot more when the game demands you avoid letting enemies focus fire you on enemy phase. FE tends to play out a lot differently depending on the difficulty or design of enemies/maps.

Units are also just rated based on difficulty curve of the game itself. If HHM was far easier in the early/mid portions and significantly harder in the later sections of the game, then units like Eliwood/Rebecca/Bartre would be a lot better off and Marcus would be notably 'worse' due to several factors. This is a really huge part of it. Jegan is only a top 5 unit in Shadow Dragon because early game would be incredibly daunting without him (and then falls off when the difficulty does as well). Obviously FE7 is a far less extreme case, but it still applies to some degree. For rating units, It really just comes down to "how much easier does this unit make the game overall"

(It's also why I personally consider FE6 Marcus to be even better than FE7 Marcus in context to the games they're in. He has worse bases/growths in FE6, so on paper you'd think he's flat out worse... But the difficulty of the early game makes Marcus even more valuable. Even if you were to Bench FE6 Marcus after CH7, he's still contributed to lowering the overall difficulty of the game compared to Percival, despite Percival clearly being far more powerful -- it's just that the game demands him less)

Edited by Dunal
Link to comment
Share on other sites

1 hour ago, DiogoJorge said:

You are forgetting that Wallace can't double, and there's more to survivability than just tanking. Lyn can double, so she can get a good deal of enemies out of the equation, preventing them from being a problem. Slaying problematic enemies are also part of surviving.

 

1 hour ago, Levant Mir Celestia said:

Except those with range, since she's sword locked. Her promotion doesn't help much, since she gets bows, which instead leave her helpless against melee enemies.

I'm actually going to have to side with DiogoJorge on this one.

1. "Slaying problematic enemies are also part of surviving." This is important. When people theorize, they tend to forget that you're going to be using player phase to get rid of the problem enemies. Kill the ranged enemies on your turn, let the rest suicide on theirs.

2. I've said it before and I'll say it again: Bows are not bad as a secondary weapon. They are a good pure-range option, and Lyn can switch out to a sword for enemy phase if needed (which won't always be the case).

Link to comment
Share on other sites

44 minutes ago, Florete said:

 

I'm actually going to have to side with DiogoJorge on this one.

1. "Slaying problematic enemies are also part of surviving." This is important. When people theorize, they tend to forget that you're going to be using player phase to get rid of the problem enemies. Kill the ranged enemies on your turn, let the rest suicide on theirs.

2. I've said it before and I'll say it again: Bows are not bad as a secondary weapon. They are a good pure-range option, and Lyn can switch out to a sword for enemy phase if needed (which won't always be the case).

In the context of this game, where "cannon fodder" best sums up most enemy units, exactly what can be considered a "problem enemy"?? About the only enemies I can really give this distinction to are Luna users, long-range magic, and status staves.

Edited by Levant Mir Celestia
Link to comment
Share on other sites

And here's some of the logic that I saw that prompted me to create this topic.

Quote

Lyn has literally no claim over the EXP of LHM.

And I'm just wondering "how is this a serious thought?" And this is from someone who considers Lyn as one of the worst units in the game. How can anyone call a unit "bad" if they're not really giving that unit a chance?

Link to comment
Share on other sites

1 hour ago, Levant Mir Celestia said:

In the context of this game, where "cannon fodder" best sums up most enemy units, exactly what can be considered a "problem enemy"?? About the only enemies I can really give this distinction to are Luna users, long-range magic, and status staves.

 

2 hours ago, Florete said:

Kill the ranged enemies on your turn, let the rest suicide on theirs.

Stuff like Heroes and Valkyries are also potentially problematic but yeah it was right there in my post.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

33 minutes ago, Florete said:

 

Stuff like Heroes and Valkyries are also potentially problematic but yeah it was right there in my post.

Well, like was said repeatedly, most enemies are weak to the point I don't feel the need to go out of my way to target specific enemies. In Sword of Seals, on the other hand, I would indeed prioritize killing ranged units since 1-2 weapons aren't as useful.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

15 hours ago, Florete said:

 

I'm actually going to have to side with DiogoJorge on this one.

1. "Slaying problematic enemies are also part of surviving." This is important. When people theorize, they tend to forget that you're going to be using player phase to get rid of the problem enemies. Kill the ranged enemies on your turn, let the rest suicide on theirs.

2. I've said it before and I'll say it again: Bows are not bad as a secondary weapon. They are a good pure-range option, and Lyn can switch out to a sword for enemy phase if needed (which won't always be the case).

Glad I'm not the only one who thinks that bows were an good secondary weapon for Lyn. Her con really isn't suitable for lances or axes. Otherwise she'll just be weighed down like Eliwood.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Is the main question still running?

 

The answer is, no shit. Only using 3 character means they get the EXP so by the time they got into Main story they become hilariously overlevelled. This is usually Sain/Florina/Kent iirc

Granted saying only use 3 character is exagerating, and its more "focus on 3 units" but the general idea is always to use as few unit as possible, and 3 is actually near the right number. I usually only use 2 actually because i could give a rat ass to Kent.

 

?And on that community, I see the argument that "Sain, Kent, and Florina should be the only units that are used in Lyn's Story." And I'm sitting here, reading this, and thinking to myself "really?! You're only slowing yourself down and gimping other units by doing that. Plus, Lyn's forced in her own story, and there's plenty of axe units there. Not using her is like trying to use your foot to write sentences."

Note that Sain appears in chapter 2, and all you need for him to nearly solo is toss him a Sword and go to forest. Dorcas chapter requires a bit more work but you can optimize it so that Sain get the lion share of your stuff. After this its a full on Sain shitstomp with Florina getting some levels here and there + Energy Ring and Angel Robe. By the time you reach Eli/Hector-mode, well you have 2 Marcus and a strong as hell flier

Why the fuck did gimping other units matter because the superunit would destroy just about anything the joke known as Lyn Mode is able to throw at them. And then theres stuff like Rath/Ninian/Serra not really requiring input

 

 

Edited by JSND Alter Dragon Boner
Link to comment
Share on other sites

1 hour ago, JSND Alter Dragon Boner said:

The answer is, no shit. Only using 3 character means they get the EXP so by the time they got into Main story they become hilariously overlevelled. This is usually Sain/Florina/Kent iirc

But why would someone act like it's the only strategy worth mentioning in a response to an argument that has nothing to do with either one of those guys?

Quote

Granted saying only use 3 character is exagerating, and its more "focus on 3 units" but the general idea is always to use as few unit as possible, and 3 is actually near the right number. I usually only use 2 actually because i could give a rat ass to Kent.

Here's the statement that was literally said to me when I tried to argue that LHM helps Lyn out when I made this topic.

Quote

"Her own section"

You mean Sain Kent and Florina's bizarre adventure?

And also this.

 

In the optimal playthrough, Lyn's story is only there for getting exp for the important units.

And another guy on the community where these two comments came from had said that Lyn "has no claim to LHM's EXP", and assumed Lyn's level was going to be at 4 the highest coming out of LHM.

If the intention behind writing each of those comments was more "focus on these units" instead of "use only these units for combat", then I missed it because of how condescendingly said comments were written.

Quote

Note that Sain appears in chapter 2, and all you need for him to nearly solo is toss him a Sword and go to forest.

Using Sain is literally never an issue for me. Though. What I have trouble understanding, though, is how much benefit one could reap by having him, Kent, and Florina, reaching Lvl 13 at the lowest by the time Lyn's Story ends. Leveling units in LHM isn't a feat worth writing home about, I know. But at the same time, there's only so much EXP that can be obtained from it. And the mere fact that leveling units up in LHM is easy is kinda why I made this topic.

Quote

Dorcas chapter requires a bit more work but you can optimize it so that Sain get the lion share of your stuff. After this its a full on Sain shitstomp with Florina getting some levels here and there + Energy Ring and Angel Robe. By the time you reach Eli/Hector-mode, well you have 2 Marcus and a strong as hell flier

That, I'm aware of. But I'm sure that nothing overkill is even necessary to achieve that.

Quote

Why the fuck did gimping other units matter because the superunit would destroy just about anything the joke known as Lyn Mode is able to throw at them. And then theres stuff like Rath/Ninian/Serra not really requiring input

Which I wasn't even considering of contesting. I just figure that there's more leeway involved in creating a superunit than what's purported to me.

 

EDIT: Why does this end up screwing up its format on me from time to time on mobile?

Edited by Just call me AL
Link to comment
Share on other sites

iirc, it's really dependant on whether or not you want to give the eliwood/hector mode's first knight crest to Oswin/Lowen or just go along and use the Lyn mode promoted cavalier and the one that didn't get promoted.

 

Lyn mode Paladin Sain is stupidly strong. I'm not so sure about lyn mode promoted Kent, but I'd be sure to think he's just as viable. It really depends on you planning to use Lowen+Oswin in the main game over one of Kent/Sain. 

It's not overkill to get one of the cavs to 10/1 while still getting lyn/florina to level 7-9, the other cav to level 7-9, and one of erk/lucius/dorcas to level 6-8. Hell, when Dorcas gets speed blessed, he's fun to use.

 

Lyn sucks as a unit. I just usually stick her on a forest in the lategame and have her dodgetank and kill at one range or two range. Since Eliwood gets promoted first in my runs, Lyn's kinda dumped to the side and replaced with Louise/Isadora until we gets to being able to have a shitton of units and whatnot. I usually have Harken/Vaida/Louise/Geitz sticking around in extra slots for the sole purpose of doing shit. Besides, what the fuck does Lyn do that nobody else does except prf weapons and a unique class? Rath does her shit with a mount and an uncontested promotion item. Isadora's a speedy character with high sword rank, good stats, and a mount. If I wanted a swordmaster, there's always Guy or Karel.

I give her points for character, looks, and being useful enough against early-ish non-lance using armors/horses. She also gets me Geitz who happens to be a really fun unit to use since he's a warrior with B bows and has good speed!

Link to comment
Share on other sites

26 minutes ago, Just call me AL said:

But why would someone act like it's the only strategy worth mentioning in a response to an argument that has nothing to do with either one of those guys?

Here's the statement that was literally said to me when I tried to argue that LHM helps Lyn out when I made this topic.

 

EDIT: Why does this end up screwing up its format on me from time to time on mobile?

On that i'm PRETTY SURE the way to go around that is to use the spoiler tag built in to the typer. I used to have issues with them as well before i used the Eye Icon for spoiler

Idk if thats the one tho

anyway thats just the nature of "debate" usually dismissing lesser options. Its the same as Xander getting speedwings, or Jill getting Steel Forge and Spedwings and Energy Drop, Miledy getting 2 speedwings and hell in FE7 itself, Florina getting Energy Ring and Angel Robe. The term used for that is opportunity cost iirc

Lyn had "no claim" on LHM EXP, in a sense that compared to everyone else that could have gotten it, she's way worse on the investment return. Sain and Kent is a horse with overall great stats, Florina is a Pegasus(who can promote fairly early if you slow down a bit, like iirc the SHIP was usually 2 turns, and you need 3 turn clear for this) Theres Serra and Lucius but they didn't take your EXP anyway, Dorcas and Matthew is early game utility. Lyn, otoh comes exactly when your otherwise broken Lyn Mode Juggernauts arrives in main story and her ussual value as a unit(MK nuker) does not requires much EXP to be pulled off. Except for Rath, because the "optimal" way to use Rath is to kill him off iirc and Wil, who is your third best character in NLOC and then dropped off a cliff for the rest of the game

 

> That I have trouble understanding, though, is how much benefit one could reap by having him, Kent, and Florina, reaching Lvl 13 at the lowest by the time Lyn's Story ends.

This one is basicaly gamebreaking as a whole you literally get into NLOC and gets 3 broken as hell character for that point in time, one of which potentially become a second Marcus(which as established in many other calcs, a character that would have been par for the course if he joined mid game, and is fairly competitive in late game). Granted i question the plausibility to get 13 on three of them without hugely abusing the game's system. Usually you get 13/10/7 spread

 

Edited by JSND Alter Dragon Boner
Link to comment
Share on other sites

12 hours ago, JSND Alter Dragon Boner said:

On that i'm PRETTY SURE the way to go around that is to use the spoiler tag built in to the typer. I used to have issues with them as well before i used the Eye Icon for spoiler

Idk if thats the one tho

anyway thats just the nature of "debate" usually dismissing lesser options. Its the same as Xander getting speedwings, or Jill getting Steel Forge and Spedwings and Energy Drop, Miledy getting 2 speedwings and hell in FE7 itself, Florina getting Energy Ring and Angel Robe. The term used for that is opportunity cost iirc

Lyn had "no claim" on LHM EXP, in a sense that compared to everyone else that could have gotten it, she's way worse on the investment return. Sain and Kent is a horse with overall great stats, Florina is a Pegasus(who can promote fairly early if you slow down a bit, like iirc the SHIP was usually 2 turns, and you need 3 turn clear for this) Theres Serra and Lucius but they didn't take your EXP anyway, Dorcas and Matthew is early game utility. Lyn, otoh comes exactly when your otherwise broken Lyn Mode Juggernauts arrives in main story and her ussual value as a unit(MK nuker) does not requires much EXP to be pulled off. Except for Rath, because the "optimal" way to use Rath is to kill him off iirc and Wil, who is your third best character in NLOC and then dropped off a cliff for the rest of the game

 

> That I have trouble understanding, though, is how much benefit one could reap by having him, Kent, and Florina, reaching Lvl 13 at the lowest by the time Lyn's Story ends.

This one is basicaly gamebreaking as a whole you literally get into NLOC and gets 3 broken as hell character for that point in time, one of which potentially become a second Marcus(which as established in many other calcs, a character that would have been par for the course if he joined mid game, and is fairly competitive in late game). Granted i question the plausibility to get 13 on three of them without hugely abusing the game's system. Usually you get 13/10/7 spread

 

is it even possible to get rath to lvl 10 by the end of lyn mode, even with favoritism?

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Join the conversation

You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account.

Guest
Reply to this topic...

×   Pasted as rich text.   Paste as plain text instead

  Only 75 emoji are allowed.

×   Your link has been automatically embedded.   Display as a link instead

×   Your previous content has been restored.   Clear editor

×   You cannot paste images directly. Upload or insert images from URL.

 Share

  • Recently Browsing   0 members

    • No registered users viewing this page.
×
×
  • Create New...