How is using only 3 units in Lyn's Story "optimal"?

[Ironthunder]

20 minutes ago, DiogoJorge said:

Good luck with that, Erk is usually lv 3 when he rejoins, meaning 9 SPD at best, when Rebecca has that same value or higher at level 7 by the time he joins.

 

14 hours ago, Ironthunder said:

Earlier in the thread, someone stated that one level per map was about right for average unit level growth, so I'll run with that for a baseline. Erk comes in at level 1 in chapter 5. Therefore, by the end of Lyn Mode, he should be at least level 6, likely slightly higher because magic ensures his damage output stays high by Lyn Mode standards. So him coming back in at chapter 14 at level 7 is really not a stretch in the slightest, it just requires you to use Erk. By comparison, for Hector Mode Rebecca comes at level 1 in chapter 12, meaning she's likely level 3 by the time you get Erk.

Woeful ignorance is not aiding your cause here.

20 minutes ago, DiogoJorge said:

No it's not reasonable, since Lyn, Florina, Matthew, Kent and Sain are leading the charge. He gets some kills, but not enough to jump from 1 to 7, at best he achieves lv 4 or so. I mean even Lucius only gets one or two levels, someone like Florina gets 4, let alone Erk who is inferior to both.

They don't subtract resources from other units though nor is it slower as I've shown with that video on chapter 11.

Knights aren't that threatening and wyverns are more easily destroyed with an archer than with a mage, since they have acess to more powerfull and lighter weapons.

I'm aware of that, I did told you that Rebecca has 6 CON as a Sniper or have you forgotten already? Also, have you forgotten that a Silver Bow is lighter than most tomes and that a Steel Bow is still lighter than a Elfire tome? I thought as much. Thunder and Fire toms are the only tomes that actually allows for Erk to double often enough and even then, Rebecca will still double more than he does.

I already answered that question before, she softens enemies or kills them as it fits the situation, as it should be. Stop asking the same question when I already answered it before. 

First off, in what world are Lyn and Matthew doing jack-diddly-doo-dah in combat? Lyn doesn't even do noteworthy damage without the Mani Katti and effective damage, and Matthew's even worse. Sain, Kent and Florina lead, Erk's the primary mop-up because he's the next best unit in that mode. It's really not hard for Erk to hit level 6 by the end of Lyn Mode. 

Knights aren't that threatening, they just burn your weapon durability. Unless you have a mage, in which case they're quick and easy exp.

Steel being lighter than Elfire means nothing, you're comparing a D rank weapon to a C rank. So let's compare like for like, shall we? Steel Bow vs Thunder.

Steel Bow

D

2

9

9

70

0

30

720

1

–

	Thunder	D	1~2	6	8	80	5	35	700	1	–
	Elfire	C	1~2	10	10	85	0	30	1200	2	–

Hmm... Worse range, 3 more Wt meaning Rebecca's taking a heftier Spd penalty, 1 more Mt which is made up for by the fact you're frequently hitting the lower of the defensive stats, less Hit, no Crit, and five less uses. Even compared to Elfire, Steel Bow's still of questionable value. Worse range, -1Wt/Mt , much less Hit and less WExp. The only benefit a Steel Bow, at rank D, has over an Elfire tome, at rank C, is that it has 1 less Wt. Also, there's this wonderful thing called 'carrying multiple weapons'. Erk, when he gets to rank C, will probably have both Elfire and Thunder, and switch between them as and when he needs to. Elfire for when you oneshot anyway (A rarity for Rebecca, but most mages will see it happen because Res remains a lot lower than Def for the vast majority of enemies), and Thunder for when you need to double.

[ping]

"Rebecca gaining 6 levels in 3 chapters isn't favouritism, what are you talking about?"

"Erk gaining more than 2 levels in 5 chapters is totally favouritism, what are you talking about?"

This is funny

[DiogoJorge]

35 minutes ago, Ironthunder said:

 

Woeful ignorance is not aiding your cause here.

First off, in what world are Lyn and Matthew doing jack-diddly-doo-dah in combat? Lyn doesn't even do noteworthy damage without the Mani Katti and effective damage, and Matthew's even worse. Sain, Kent and Florina lead, Erk's the primary mop-up because he's the next best unit in that mode. It's really not hard for Erk to hit level 6 by the end of Lyn Mode. 

Knights aren't that threatening, they just burn your weapon durability. Unless you have a mage, in which case they're quick and easy exp.

Steel being lighter than Elfire means nothing, you're comparing a D rank weapon to a C rank. So let's compare like for like, shall we? Steel Bow vs Thunder.

Steel Bow

D

2

9

9

70

0

30

720

1

–

	Thunder	D	1~2	6	8	80	5	35	700	1	–
	Elfire	C	1~2	10	10	85	0	30	1200	2	–

Hmm... Worse range, 3 more Wt meaning Rebecca's taking a heftier Spd penalty, 1 more Mt which is made up for by the fact you're frequently hitting the lower of the defensive stats, less Hit, no Crit, and five less uses. Even compared to Elfire, Steel Bow's still of questionable value. Worse range, -1Wt/Mt , much less Hit and less WExp. The only benefit a Steel Bow, at rank D, has over an Elfire tome, at rank C, is that it has 1 less Wt. Also, there's this wonderful thing called 'carrying multiple weapons'. Erk, when he gets to rank C, will probably have both Elfire and Thunder, and switch between them as and when he needs to. Elfire for when you oneshot anyway (A rarity for Rebecca, but most mages will see it happen because Res remains a lot lower than Def for the vast majority of enemies), and Thunder for when you need to double.

It's not woefull ignorance. I have already seen this before and it changes nothing. Thunder has 6 MT while Steel Bow has 9 MT. Quite the coincidence, since the difference between DEF and RES early on is about 3 points, so basically, Thunder is only slightly better due to 1-2 range, but that hardly has much use when Erk can only attack one enemy per EP, which Rebecca can also do with 2 range only if one positions her propely in enemy's range.

In what world? Lyn can double from the get-go, Matthew can double from the get-go, it doesn't get simpler than that, not to mention that a leveled Matthew is very usefull for HHM, specially for chapter 13x and 14.

Lyn has Mani Katti which regenerates once she rejoins, meaning that Mani Katti is the only sword she needs for her whole mode. Matthew is worse, but he has weapon advantage and can double, he's causing more damage than Erk for starters Matthew has a ATK of 9, Erk has a ATK of 10, Matthew is doubling, so he's causing more damage against the almost nonexistant DEF enemies at this point in the game.

 There's no shortage of axefighters for either of them to kill. If she's not causing noteworthy damage, than neither is Kent or Sain. Mani Katti has a MT of 8, if she's not causing decent damage in her own mode, then your game is bugged.

Sure, mages are meant to kill Knights, as long as they are close by to do so. That's how Erk usually goes from lv 1-3 plus a few other enemies he comes across in Lyn's mode.

Elfire isn't one shotting, Erk only has 40% MAG growth, he would need higher MAG growths to one shot with it.

I already stated my piece on Thunder magic though. Also, you are forgetting that Rebecca has a 60% SPD growth against his 50%, meaning that the difference between her using the Steel Bow and him using the Thunder tome is pretty much negligible in the long run, Erk will have a small advantage for a short while if his SPD keeps up, but that advantage disapears just as quickly as he got it. I give him no more than 5 chapters before Rebecca's SPD allows her to use Steel Bows just as well, if not better than him. Then, later on, she gets Silver Bow from Louise, which allow her to dominate Player Phase.

Worse range, when it rarely sees much use, right. The SPD penalty becomes negligible later on, Erk has that moment to gain momentum, but once Rebecca reaches higher levels, she will have SPD dominance, while Erk will be forced to use Elfire in order to keep up against Silver Bow.

By the time you get Elfire, you already have Silver Bow, Elfire doesn't compete with Steel Bow at that point.

So? Rebecca can change weapons as well, she can use Iron Bows, Steel Bows or Silver Bows, depending on how resilent the enemy is.

Rebecca doesn't need to one shot when she 2 shots everything via doubling, not to mention, good luck getting Erk to one shot with Elfire, when it takes Pent level of stats to do so and against Wyverns no less, one of the enemies with the lesser amount of RES in the game. If Pent cannot one shot with it against others, how is Erk supposed to do so?

Not when the difference between DEF and RES by late game is still small, with the exception of the Wyvern Lords and Generals who are the only units with a big difference between DEF and RES.

I'm willing to agree to disagree, but you keep arguing when neither of us will back down.

 

9 minutes ago, ping said:

"Rebecca gaining 6 levels in 3 chapters isn't favouritism, what are you talking about?"

"Erk gaining more than 2 levels in 5 chapters is totally favouritism, what are you talking about?"

This is funny

 

Not as funny as the fact that Rebecca is more usefull in her starting chapters than Erk is in his. Also doesn't help that most enemies are very low level in Lyn's mode, meaning that Erk will level slower.

Rebecca gains levels naturally, since she's usefull and there's less units to share experience with, while Erk has to compete with a good deal of better units like Kent, Lyn, Sain, Florina, Matthew and Lucius.

[MacLovin]

1 hour ago, Ironthunder said:

 

Woeful ignorance is not aiding your cause here.

First off, in what world are Lyn and Matthew doing jack-diddly-doo-dah in combat? Lyn doesn't even do noteworthy damage without the Mani Katti and effective damage, and Matthew's even worse. Sain, Kent and Florina lead, Erk's the primary mop-up because he's the next best unit in that mode. It's really not hard for Erk to hit level 6 by the end of Lyn Mode. 

Knights aren't that threatening, they just burn your weapon durability. Unless you have a mage, in which case they're quick and easy exp.

Steel being lighter than Elfire means nothing, you're comparing a D rank weapon to a C rank. So let's compare like for like, shall we? Steel Bow vs Thunder.

Steel Bow

D

2

9

9

70

0

30

720

1

–

	Thunder	D	1~2	6	8	80	5	35	700	1	–
	Elfire	C	1~2	10	10	85	0	30	1200	2	–

Hmm... Worse range, 3 more Wt meaning Rebecca's taking a heftier Spd penalty, 1 more Mt which is made up for by the fact you're frequently hitting the lower of the defensive stats, less Hit, no Crit, and five less uses. Even compared to Elfire, Steel Bow's still of questionable value. Worse range, -1Wt/Mt , much less Hit and less WExp. The only benefit a Steel Bow, at rank D, has over an Elfire tome, at rank C, is that it has 1 less Wt. Also, there's this wonderful thing called 'carrying multiple weapons'. Erk, when he gets to rank C, will probably have both Elfire and Thunder, and switch between them as and when he needs to. Elfire for when you oneshot anyway (A rarity for Rebecca, but most mages will see it happen because Res remains a lot lower than Def for the vast majority of enemies), and Thunder for when you need to double.

Let's not forget that steel bows are kind of a waste of money when you first see them in shops.

Iirc, the first elfire tome is a free one that you get to play with. 

 

14 minutes ago, DiogoJorge said:

It's not woefull ignorance. I have already seen this before and it changes nothing. Thunder has 6 MT while Steel Bow has 9 MT. Quite the coincidence, since the difference between DEF and RES early on is about 3 points, so basically, Thunder is only slightly better due to 1-2 range, but that hardly has much use when Erk can only attack one enemy per EP, which Rebecca can also do with 2 range only if one positions her propely in enemy's range.

In what world? Lyn can double from the get-go, Matthew can double from the get-go, it doesn't get simpler than that, not to mention that a leveled Matthew is very usefull for HHM, specially for chapter 13x and 14.

Lyn has Mani Katti which regenerates once she rejoins, meaning that Mani Katti is the only sword she needs for her whole mode. Matthew is worse, but he has weapon advantage and can double, he's causing more damage than Erk for starters Matthew has a ATK of 9, Erk has a ATK of 10, Matthew is doubling, so he's causing more damage against the almost nonexistant DEF enemies at this point in the game.

 There's no shortage of axefighters for either of them to kill. If she's not causing noteworthy damage, than neither is Kent or Sain. Mani Katti has a MT of 8, if she's not causing decent damage in her own mode, then your game is bugged.

Sure, mages are meant to kill Knights, as long as they are close by to do so. That's how Erk usually goes from lv 1-3 plus a few other enemies he comes across in Lyn's mode.

Elfire isn't one shotting, Erk only has 40% MAG growth, he would need higher MAG growths to one shot with it.

I already stated my piece on Thunder magic though. Also, you are forgetting that Rebecca has a 60% SPD growth against his 50%, meaning that the difference between her using the Steel Bow and him using the Thunder tome is pretty much negligible in the long run, Erk will have a small advantage for a short while if his SPD keeps up, but that advantage disapears just as quickly as he got it. I give him no more than 5 chapters before Rebecca's SPD allows her to use Steel Bows just as well, if not better than him. Then, later on, she gets Silver Bow from Louise, which allow her to dominate Player Phase.

Worse range, when it rarely sees much use, right. The SPD penalty becomes negligible later on, Erk has that moment to gain momentum, but once Rebecca reaches higher levels, she will have SPD dominance, while Erk will be forced to use Elfire in order to keep up against Silver Bow.

By the time you get Elfire, you already have Silver Bow, Elfire doesn't compete with Steel Bow at that point.

So? Rebecca can change weapons as well, she can use Iron Bows, Steel Bows or Silver Bows, depending on how resilent the enemy is.

Rebecca doesn't need to one shot when she 2 shots everything via doubling, not to mention, good luck getting Erk to one shot with Elfire, when it takes Pent level of stats to do so and against Wyverns no less, one of the enemies with the lesser amount of RES in the game. If Pent cannot one shot with it against others, how is Erk supposed to do so?

Not when the difference between DEF and RES by late game is still small, with the exception of the Wyvern Lords and Generals who are the only units with a big difference between DEF and RES.

I'm willing to agree to disagree, but you keep arguing when neither of us will back down.

 

 

Not as funny as the fact that Rebecca is more usefull in her starting chapters than Erk is in his. Also doesn't help that most enemies are very low level in Lyn's mode, meaning that Erk will level slower.

Rebecca gains levels naturally, since she's usefull and there's less units to share experience with, while Erk has to compete with a good deal of better units like Kent, Lyn, Sain, Florina, Matthew and Lucius.

dude the entire point here is that you keep making erroneous claims about shit, constantly refuse to back anything up outside of a vaguely defined personal metric, and then you pull the child's play argument of "I've been playing the game longer".

In Lyn mode, levels start slowing down after getting to 6/7. It's entirely possible get one of Kent/Sain/maybe Florina to level 10 by giving them the bosskills (Which is fairly easy).

Rebecca getting a level per chapter isn't hard, but she's not doing all that much with it.

But the thing is, once she's not a free unit for deployment, there's not much reason to use her. (First deployment screen is in Erik's chapter.)

[Just call me AL]

1 hour ago, DiogoJorge said:

Not as funny as the fact that Rebecca is more usefull in her starting chapters than Erk is in his. 

Rebecca gains levels naturally, since she's useful

Having used both extensively before (I have as much gameplay experience as you, you know), I can, with full confidence, say that both of these statements are blatant falsehoods.

Quote

and there's less units to share experience with, 

Which doesn't help her case in the slightest.

Quote

while Erk has to compete with a good deal of better units like Kent, Lyn, Sain, Florina, Matthew and Lucius.

And Rebecca has to compete with more units better than her such as Bartre, Dorcas, Eliwood, Guy, Oswin, Matthew, Hector, and especially Marcus. That list only grows once you reach Ch 17, and will keep growing from there. In fact, the only units in the whole game she can be realistically be considered better than are Nino, Wil, Wallace, and Karla. And there's even people that are willing to argue excluding Wil from that short list. What is your point in saying this?

And let's be real here. As everyone else is telling, and as you keep sticking your fingers in your ears to, there's no way in Tartarus that Rebecca's reaching Lvl 9 by then. The mere fact that she manages to do so for you by then only shows your over-reliance on her. It doesn't show how "good" she is. Even with your assumption that she's somehow getting one level per chapter without even favoritism, that would put you at about Ch 19; one of the worst maps to be an Archer in because of Fog of War.

Edited June 19, 2018 by Just call me AL

[DiogoJorge]

3 hours ago, Just call me AL said:

Having used both extensively before (I have as much gameplay experience as you, you know), I can, with full confidence, say that both of these statements are blatant falsehoods.

Which doesn't help her case in the slightest.

And Rebecca has to compete with more units better than her such as Bartre, Dorcas, Eliwood, Guy, Oswin, Matthew, Hector, and especially Marcus. That list only grows once you reach Ch 17, and will keep growing from there. In fact, the only units in the whole game she can be realistically be considered better than are Nino, Wil, Wallace, and Karla. And there's even people that are willing to argue excluding Wil from that short list.

And let's be real here. As everyone else is telling, and as you keep sticking your fingers in your ears to, there's no way in Tartarus that Rebecca's reaching Lvl 9 by then. The mere fact that she manages to do so for you by then only shows your over-reliance on her. It doesn't show how "good" she is. Even with your assumption that she's somehow getting one level per chapter without even favoritism, that would put you at about Ch 19; one of the worst maps to be an Archer in because of Fog of War.

And I can say that having both extensively, that my statements are true. She's doubling more often than Erk is, she has bonus damage against fliers, she can use Brave Bow, Balistas and Longbows, she can bait mages and most ranged enemies, etc... the list goes on about the benefits of using Rebecca.

Which does help her case, since the only competition she has is Lowen, Dorcas, Barte, Eliwood and (lol) Marcus. Erk on the other hand has to compete with Lyn, Kent, Sain, Florina, Lucius, and Matthew, that's almost double the amount, considering that neither Dorcas, Barte and Marcus deserve to get much experience.

She only has to compete with those units past chapter 13, see the problem? Erk has to compete with the others from the get-go.

Specially Marcus my foot, if you are giving more experience to Marcus, then you are playing the game wrong. Jaigens should never get more experience than the units that actually grow.

By then? You mean chapter 17? Yes, she is, you are the one putting the fingers in your ears by using the "favouritism" excuse when she gained those levels fair and square. On contrary, it shows that she is good, since I wouldn't use her otherwise, she provides with good clean up duty by helping stronger characters like Hector to focus on bigger fry rather than waste turns defeating weaker enemy units.

Rebecca has no issues with chapter 19 though, since she's usually helping killing the pirates near Merlinus tent and she's doing so with the proper defensive formation. If she's attacked at range, she is going to counter and since she's in forest tiles, she will not be hit often. Mind you, she doesn't excell on that map, but considering your other choices, she still deserves a deployment slot for that map.

 

At this point, I don't see any need to prolong this topic further, both of us won't relent, so agreeing to disagree is the only way to end this amicably.

 

Edited June 19, 2018 by DiogoJorge

[ping]

1 hour ago, DiogoJorge said:

Rebecca gains levels naturally, since she's usefull and there's less units to share experience with, while Erk has to compete with a good deal of better units like Kent, Lyn, Sain, Florina, Matthew and Lucius.

Funnily enough, three of those units (not counting Erk) completely obsolete Rebecca when they rejoin, especially if they get a couple LHM levels.

Also, diminishing XP for kills is a thing in Lyn Mode, so five levels for Erk probably equal like one level on a priority unit (i.e. the Cavs and Florina).

35 minutes ago, DiogoJorge said:

Specially Marcus my foot, if you are giving more experience to Marcus, then you are playing the game wrong. Jaigens should never get more experience than the units that actually grow.

Yeah, kids, avoid using the unit that makes the hardest parts of the game significantly easier. It's much more important to make your growth units slightly more powerful when one or two levels more or less don't matter anymore. Also remember, Athos can't gain any XP, so make sure not to give him any kills in Light!

 

[DiogoJorge]

12 minutes ago, ping said:

Funnily enough, three of those units (not counting Erk) completely obsolete Rebecca when they rejoin, especially if they get a couple LHM levels.

Also, diminishing XP for kills is a thing in Lyn Mode, so five levels for Erk probably equal like one level on a priority unit (i.e. the Cavs and Florina).

Yeah, kids, avoid using the unit that makes the hardest parts of the game significantly easier. It's much more important to make your growth units slightly more powerful when one or two levels more or less don't matter anymore. Also remember, Athos can't gain any XP, so make sure not to give him any kills in Light!

 

Unless those 3 units are named Lyn, Kent and Sain, you are probably wrong about "obsolete". If all it take for a unit to obselete other for it to not be good, then I would just use Hector, a healer and a flier and bench everyone else, but guess what, the more good units the better.

Right, because the 3 or so harder parts tottally justify dragging along a half baked unit beyond that... I wasn't expecting Serenes Forest to be much better than Gamefaqs, but the lack of foresight is still incredible.

Slightly more powerfull? Try  much more powerfull, a lv 5 Paladin Kent runs circles around Marcus. 

I don't give him any kills though, I have him to be mainly a healer and help soften up some of the enemies, Nergal and the Fire Dragon.

Edited June 19, 2018 by DiogoJorge

[Shadow Mir]

2 minutes ago, DiogoJorge said:

Slightly more powerfull? Try  much more powerfull, a lv 1 Paladin Kent runs circles around Marcus. 

Because that's totally feasible without boss abuse, right? Oh wait, it ain't.

[DisobeyedCargo]

Marcus is indispensable in the early game becusse he has the bulk to take a few hits and can one round with his silver Lance 

and simply due to his base stats he can continue to hold his own for the majority of the game, despite his middling growths.

[DiogoJorge]

1 hour ago, Levant Mir Celestia said:

Because that's totally feasible without boss abuse, right? Oh wait, it ain't.

I don't need boss abuse for that, nor would I do it. Also, lv 1 is a stretch, he's faster than Marcus and has more DEF, but his other stats are about the same, so I changed it to 5, which happens soon enough around chapters 24 or so, not to mention that even before then, Marcus been benched in chapter 21 or so, since Kent is already faster and just as tankier as Marcus.

 

1 hour ago, DisobeyedCargo said:

Marcus is indispensable in the early game becusse he has the bulk to take a few hits and can one round with his silver Lance 

and simply due to his base stats he can continue to hold his own for the majority of the game, despite his middling growths.

No, he's not. One can still tank just with Hector alone. Marcus is usefull not because he's indispensable, but because he's an extra tank, and his tanking ability doesn't last very long at that, unlike Hector's.

Also... As I said before, agree to disagree, because this is pretty much a stalemate and I don't see this topic going anywhere.

Edited June 19, 2018 by DiogoJorge

[DisobeyedCargo]

6 minutes ago, DiogoJorge said:

No, he's not. One can still tank just with Hector alone. Marcus is usefull not because he's indispensable, but because he's an extra tank, and his tanking ability doesn't last very long at that, unlike Hector's.

His high bases right off the bat, coupled with the generally low stats of enemy units allows him to stay relevant in the entire game 

 

even if you don't use him for combat, an early game paladin with 8 mov is a great rescue bot. 

 

 

Edited June 19, 2018 by DisobeyedCargo

[MacLovin]

12 minutes ago, DiogoJorge said:

I don't need boss abuse for that, nor would I do it. Also, lv 1 is a stretch, he's faster than Marcus and has more DEF, but his other stats are about the same, so I changed it to 5, which happens soon enough around chapters 24 or so, not to mention that even before then, Marcus been benched in chapter 21 or so, since Kent is already faster and just as tankier as Marcus.

• Learn to use the multiquote option
• A 10/1 Sain/Kent is viable, but not quite on par with Marcus at base. However, it is highly unlikely to get a 20/1 Kent/Sain out of lhm unless you boss abuse. 
• Did you not read anything posted? It just seems that you're showing distinct favoritism for a unit and blatantly disregarding everything else that's been said.

[DiogoJorge]

15 minutes ago, Czarpy said:

• Learn to use the multiquote option
• A 10/1 Sain/Kent is viable, but not quite on par with Marcus at base. However, it is highly unlikely to get a 20/1 Kent/Sain out of lhm unless you boss abuse. 
• Did you not read anything posted? It just seems that you're showing distinct favoritism for a unit and blatantly disregarding everything else that's been said.

Sorry, not used to it yet, I keep forgetting since normally there's no multiquote option in other forums.

It's not just viable, it's preferable to Marcus who grows little. Their stats improve faster and better, so using them is the way to go. I don't need to boss abuse, they reach Paladin by chapter 22-24, which is about 2-3 chapters right after benching Marcus.

I did read, but I remain unconvinced. Nothing you showed made me think otherwise. That's why I'm saying to agree to disagree, since I know that I've been using my units propely, but you want to persistently say otherwise, and since none of use will budge, this won't go anywhere.

Edited June 19, 2018 by DiogoJorge

[MacLovin]

4 minutes ago, DiogoJorge said:

Sorry, not used to it yet, I keep forgetting since normally there's no multiquote option in other forums.

It's not just viable, it's preferable to Marcus who grows little. Their stats improve faster and better, so using them is the way to go. I don't need to boss abuse, they reach Paladin by chapter 22-24, which is about 2-3 chapters right after benching Marcus.

I did read, but I remain unconvinced. Nothing you showed made me think otherwise. That's why I'm saying to agree to disagree, since I know that I've been using my units propely, but you want to persistently say otherwise, and since none of use will budge, this won't go anywhere.

• I mean you can literally get a 10/1 Kent/Sain from the lyn mode knight crest. 
• Marcus is benched on choice, not because he falls behind. If anything, he's a total necessity on non-casual HHM runs due to his bases.

[DiogoJorge]

20 minutes ago, Czarpy said:

• I mean you can literally get a 10/1 Kent/Sain from the lyn mode knight crest. 
• Marcus is benched on choice, not because he falls behind. If anything, he's a total necessity on non-casual HHM runs due to his bases.

I would lose a blue gem in the process. I would rather not promote them, specially since they would be just Marcus 1.5, better but not by much.

He falls behind to me, his SPD rarely increases and 10 DEF isn't enough for a tank, specially when Hector already has 15 DEF or so. He was never a necessity for me other than chapter 13, 13x and 14, otherwise, he helps but is not essential.

Edited June 19, 2018 by DiogoJorge

[Shadow Mir]

56 minutes ago, DiogoJorge said:

I know that I've been using my units propely,

According to what standards, those from 2003?

[gjuptonv]

@DiogoJorge

After reading through this entire thread, as well as your comments on Mekkah's videos, I feel it may be helpful to approach this from a different direction.

It's perfectly fine to have convictions and say you "won't budge", but you won't grow as a FE player -or as a person- if you refuse to earnestly take on your opponent's arguments. In this case it may be helpful for you to specify exactly what metrics you're using, how exactly you're defining optimal, and to stop flagrantly dismissing other's arguments.

To ask a few questions:

- earlier you mentioned that "if a unit is good, I will use them" after denying any sort of favouritism; what is your metric for good and why does it invalidates others claims of your units not being good?

On 2018-03-02 at 4:48 AM, DiogoJorge said:

The only thing that matters is survival first, and to overpower enemies whenever possible, efficiency is secondary. If I can finish a long map in less than 25 turns, that's enough. There are only a few maps where efficiency is more important (Battle before Dawn and the like).

In order to rate units, one must take into account their growths, bases and their averages as well their availability. Considering that Lyn has Kent beat in some growths and bases, while he has his own edge in other stats, it's only fair that I see them as equals

At this point, it's pretty much a stale mate. So let's just agree to disagree.

- are you willing to agree that for players who place efficiency first, their aguments for or against the worth of certain units (e.g. Lyn) is valid in the context of their playstyles?

- By your own metric; if survival is first, and efficiency secondary, then high movement units who can rescue and have 1-2 range attacks should rank highest

- if a conflict involves fundamental disagreement then agree to disagree can be a valid way to respond, in this case it's very difficult to look at your arguments and posts as anything other than a desire to not be wrong, especially so considering this thread is discussing optimal play

Edited June 19, 2018 by gjuptonv

[ping]

1 hour ago, DiogoJorge said:

Right, because the 3 or so harder parts tottally justify dragging along a half baked unit beyond that... I wasn't expecting Serenes Forest to be much better than Gamefaqs, but the lack of foresight is still incredible.

If you don't want to drag along a half baked unit, you can... *drumroll* drop the Jeigen when he doesn't perform anymore. Last time I checked, units aren't locked to your team, even if you've fielded them more than three times in a row.

Which, in Marcus' case, is approximately Victory or Death, and that even disregards the value of an 8 move rescuebot in that chapter, so one could argue that one can consistently get good use out of Marcus until the midgame of Binding Blade.

I'll happily eat my words if you can present a unit that has a bigger performance lead over the entire rest of the team than Marcus does in the first half of the game. Until then, I'll keep saying that "DONT USE THE JAGEN" is the worst advice one can give to a new player.

(interestingly enough, this entire post, minus the VoD specification, is 100% applicable to Binding Blade, despite Marcus' stats being significantly lower in that game. Actually, it's pretty much true for every FE game of the series. It's not accurate for Sacred Stones and Path of Radiance though, what with Seth and Titania not knowing the meaning of the phrase "falling behind")

[Balcerzak]

I would hesitate to call Victory or Death midgame.

[Aut]

16 minutes ago, ping said:

If you don't want to drag along a half baked unit, you can... *drumroll* drop the Jeigen when he doesn't perform anymore. Last time I checked, units aren't locked to your team, even if you've fielded them more than three times in a row.

Which, in Marcus' case, is approximately Victory or Death, and that even disregards the value of an 8 move rescuebot in that chapter, so one could argue that one can consistently get good use out of Marcus until the midgame of Binding Blade.

I'll happily eat my words if you can present a unit that has a bigger performance lead over the entire rest of the team than Marcus does in the first half of the game. Until then, I'll keep saying that "DONT USE THE JAGEN" is the worst advice one can give to a new player.

(interestingly enough, this entire post, minus the VoD specification, is 100% applicable to Binding Blade, despite Marcus' stats being significantly lower in that game. Actually, it's pretty much true for every FE game of the series. It's not accurate for Sacred Stones and Path of Radiance though, what with Seth and Titania not knowing the meaning of the phrase "falling behind")

I find this funny, just because victory or death has just about the highest deployment number in HHM, so odds are if Marcus was being used he’ll be fielded in Victory or Death, and even if he wasn’t he’s still free with good stats for an untrained unit and high move. Also I’m confused about what you meant about mid game of Binding Blade, I assume that was some sort of mistake but I’m curious what you meant by that.

For me personally on the whole Marcus debate, I find that a trained Marcus is one of the best units for Cog of Destiny, due to his relatively high resistance, ability to ORKO most enemy magic users at range (except Valkyries), and his ability to ORKO Valkyries (with the brave lance/other brave weapons I guess). And in that sense I find it ironic when people don’t think that Marcus is good lategame since he’s one of the best for what many consider the hardest lategame chapter (and it’s not like he’s bad in any of the other lategame maps, since maps like Sands of time and BBD have, on average, very bad enemies, and BBD incentivized high movement units). And the earlier you get into the game the better his preformance gets. So since he’s amazing early and mid game, great lategame, and mediocre endgame, anyone who thinks Marcus isn’t great overall is blind to his non-endgame preformance.

[ping]

@Aut @Balcerzak - Haha, I guess the Binding Blade joke worked better in my head. :D

I meant that since Marcus is at worst an eight-move rescuebot in VoD (i.e. FE7's endgame) and FE6 plays after FE7, there's a continuous period in in-universe time from the start of FE7 until like halfway through FE6 in which Marcus is a useful unit. Just a joke, not an actual argument, of course.

[Balcerzak]

I blame writing my response before having any coffee this morning then. And yeah, Marcus is really OP, only maybe Finn really comes to mind for someone who puts in the same amount of work in their respective subseries. I would weigh in more on the rest of the matter, but it feels mostly like the dead horse has been pretty well beaten. I mean, I am an occasional archer apologist (Dorothy has a bit of a soft spot for me for putting in work in a draft, for example) but, honestly, I don't think there's that good of a case to be made here unless the pace the player is utilizing is particularly deliberate, and all ranged units attack before all melee ones to minimize all counters entirely. Which is an odd definition of optimal, but if "least damage taken" is your criteria of choice, I guess. shrug?

[MacLovin]

17 minutes ago, ping said:

@Aut @Balcerzak - Haha, I guess the Binding Blade joke worked better in my head. :D

I meant that since Marcus is at worst an eight-move rescuebot in VoD (i.e. FE7's endgame) and FE6 plays after FE7, there's a continuous period in in-universe time from the start of FE7 until like halfway through FE6 in which Marcus is a useful unit. Just a joke, not an actual argument, of course.

*cough cough rescuebot*

 

but yeah screaming "Jeigans suz l0l0l" isn't helping anyone.

[Balcerzak]

I mean, ferrying people across trigger points in one of the most difficult maps in fe6 (chapter 21) was definitely I thing I have used him for in the past. Fliers do it better, sure, but you can deploy a ton of people there.