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How is using only 3 units in Lyn's Story "optimal"?


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14 hours ago, Florete said:

 

Instead of constantly saying "agree to disagree" it might be a better idea to lead by example and just stop posting.

I will, as long people stop posting things for me to correct. But considering they are still at it, guess I should be the better person and stop right after this post.

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5 hours ago, Florete said:

Well, I prefer ranked HHM, but I can't think of a context outside skipping LHM in which Guy would actually be better. She's practically always offensively stronger, has a powerful Prf weapon all to herself, has a quick support with one of the best units in the game (Florina), and gets ranged combat on promotion.

That's fair! Would you argue that in a ranked run the value of the Heaven Seal vs. a Hero Crest is enough to push them closer?

2 hours ago, DiogoJorge said:

I will, as long people stop posting things for me to correct. But considering they are still at it, guess I should be the better person and stop right after this post.

It's incredibly thick-headed and pompous of you to pretend that you're taking the high-road here. Based on your arguments in this thread you have no leg to stand-on when claiming that; a) most -if any- of the things you have posted here are correct, b) that others are the problem, and c) that by not posting you are morally superior to them in this instance. If you're not going to continue your arguments due to your inability to do so, then be the bigger person and admit that, rather than couching your statements in this holier-than-thou rhetoric you seem so fond of.

Edited by gjuptonv
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6 hours ago, DiogoJorge said:

I will, as long people stop posting things for me to correct. But considering they are still at it, guess I should be the better person and stop right after this post.

if you were literally anyone who had credibility (posted runs under strict conditions, character analysis, draft runs, extensive knowledge of ingame mechanics and bugs, etc.) within the english speaking fandom like dondon, mekkah, integrity, SoC, etc. people would listen to you.

But you're not.

This means you have to actually act like a normal human being.

  • You refuse to look at anything objectively.
  • You won't give a concrete definition of your metric of value for units
  • You're resorting to using the "I did it before you" argument that people generally stop using after age 10.
  • You're trying to take the moral high ground after people have argued and brought forth reasonable statements backed by evidence.
  • You couldn't even fucking just take the last of your own dignity and stop posting. While your opinion is your own, people won't follow it based on reasoning from early 2000s gamefaqs guides. 

 

 

people could easily whip up a thousand words or more on the flaws of Rebecca and comparisons to non marcus/hector/oswin/lowen units earlygame. But you refuse to talk about anything with legs to stand on. 

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6 hours ago, gjuptonv said:

That's fair! Would you argue that in a ranked run the value of the Heaven Seal vs. a Hero Crest is enough to push them closer?

I already don't think they're too far away, but the value of promotion items in ranked runs tends to be overstated. Funds isn't so tight that you can't afford to promote multiple units so long as you aren't needlessly throwing your money away.

So to answer the question, no. At least, not to a degree that it's worth mentioning.

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20 minutes ago, Florete said:

I already don't think they're too far away, but the value of promotion items in ranked runs tends to be overstated. Funds isn't so tight that you can't afford to promote multiple units so long as you aren't needlessly throwing your money away.

So to answer the question, no. At least, not to a degree that it's worth mentioning.

Again fair. Thank you for your responses. I'm planning my first S-Rank HHM run and any advice like this is greatly appreciated.

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10 minutes ago, gjuptonv said:

Again fair. Thank you for your responses. I'm planning my first S-Rank HHM run and any advice like this is greatly appreciated.

Good luck on the attempt, it's a fun run to do, and while I think the difficulty may be overhyped, it's possible that's only true if you overprepare.

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12 hours ago, Florete said:

Well, I prefer ranked HHM, but I can't think of a context outside skipping LHM in which Guy would actually be better. She's practically always offensively stronger, has a powerful Prf weapon all to herself, has a quick support with one of the best units in the game (Florina), and gets ranged combat on promotion.

I’d personally disagree. HHM unranked Lyn is in my eyes inferior to Guy. She’s always inferior to guy defensively by a significant amount, offensively she gets wrecked by most of the unit’s her weapons good against, and the support and ranged combat do not matter. There is no situation in unranked HHM where Lyn’s ranged combat is superior to any unit with a javelin. Offensively Guy’s tied to that killing edge but not as much as Lyn is tied to her Mani Katti. If neither have them Guy is superior. And Lyn can’t keep using it forever. Her Mani Katti isn’t even that useful, since I’d never shove her in front of a knight with it (there are way too many units that are better or equal at killing them and superior defensively), and the only way it’s being used on a Cav is if there is nobody else in range. If I’m not using either of them, Guy is superior due to free deployment, and if I am using either of them (since my god why would you do both) I’d choose Guy because he’s less terrible early on when Lyn’s avoid will not prevent her from getting killed.

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14 minutes ago, Aut said:

I’d personally disagree. HHM unranked Lyn is in my eyes inferior to Guy. She’s always inferior to guy defensively by a significant amount, offensively she gets wrecked by most of the unit’s her weapons good against, and the support and ranged combat do not matter. There is no situation in unranked HHM where Lyn’s ranged combat is superior to any unit with a javelin. Offensively Guy’s tied to that killing edge but not as much as Lyn is tied to her Mani Katti. If neither have them Guy is superior. And Lyn can’t keep using it forever. Her Mani Katti isn’t even that useful, since I’d never shove her in front of a knight with it (there are way too many units that are better or equal at killing them and superior defensively), and the only way it’s being used on a Cav is if there is nobody else in range. If I’m not using either of them, Guy is superior due to free deployment, and if I am using either of them (since my god why would you do both) I’d choose Guy because he’s less terrible early on when Lyn’s avoid will not prevent her from getting killed.

remind me again, but what's guy's AS with a steel sword by the time Lyn joins you?

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8 minutes ago, Aut said:

She’s always inferior to guy defensively by a significant amount

This rarely matters in this game for dodgy units.

9 minutes ago, Aut said:

the support and ranged combat do not matter.

This is blatantly false. A Florina support grants both +3 atk and +15 crit. How can that not matter? Bows give Lyn ranged options Guy just simply doesn't have. This gives her much better flexibility in how she's used.

10 minutes ago, Aut said:

If neither have them Guy is superior. And Lyn can’t keep using it forever.

Lyn can't use it 'forever', but she doesn't need to, she just needs it where it's needed, which should make it last for the tougher early game until later when she just doesn't even need it much anymore. But Lyn is still better than Guy without it because she has just as much speed and typically has better atk.

13 minutes ago, Aut said:

Her Mani Katti isn’t even that useful, since I’d never shove her in front of a knight with it

Why not? It's practically a guaranteed kill against enemies it's effective against, which Guy certainly can't claim.

15 minutes ago, Aut said:

early on when Lyn’s avoid will not prevent her from getting killed.

I dunno, I don't tend to have any trouble keeping her alive.

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45 minutes ago, Florete said:

But Lyn is still better than Guy without it because she has just as much speed and typically has better atk.

?

Assuming Lyn gets to level 7 at the end of LHM, which I'd say is pretty typical, her average stats(Without giving her the boosters) are all worse than Guy's hard mode base stats, aside from Luck and maybe 2 points of Res. If you actually use Guy and get him 2-3 levels prior to Lyn's re-recruitment, which isn't out of the question, as 13x is a very axe heavy chapter, and 13, 14 and 15 are easy enough for him to pick units off in, it's really not a contest if Lyn doesn't have her Mani Katti. But again, even without that, a level 3 HM Guy will be better across the board than a level 7 Lyn, and she likely won't match him until level 10 with her strength.

She has better support options, but much of those outside of increasing her dodge-tankyness go towards bridging the gap between her and Guy, since she'll be wanting more attack, which Guy has naturally, or more crit, which Guy eventually gets.

Edited by Slumber
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4 minutes ago, Slumber said:

?

Assuming Lyn gets to level 7 at the end of LHM, which I'd say is pretty typical, her average stats(Without giving her the boosters) are all worse than Guy's hard mode base stats, aside from Luck and maybe 2 points of Res. If you actually use Guy and get him 2-3 levels prior to Lyn's re-recruitment, which isn't out of the question, as 13x is a very axe heavy chapter, and 13, 14 and 15 are easy enough for him to pick units off in, it's really not a contest. But again, even without that, a level 3 HM Guy will be better across the board than a level 7 Lyn, and outside speed, she likely won't match him until level 10 with her strength.

She has better support options, but much of those outside of increasing her dodge-tankyness go towards bridging the gap between her and Guy, since she'll be wanting more attack, which Guy has naturally, or more crit, which Guy eventually gets.

If you focus on 3 units in LHM, Lyn being one of them, lv 9 should be easy. Note that I said atk, not Str, since multiple factors effect this. C Florina is one turn, which is an easy +1. Mani Katti is 8 MT, which Guy needs either a Steel Sword or Killing Edge to match early on, the former of which drops his Spd by 5 and the latter of which is much more limited in use and can be used by anyone with swords. There's the potential that Lyn got the LHM Energy Ring which Guy doesn't have access to. Then Lyn has +10 Str growth. If she's not better than him in atk right away, she will be soon. And my comment was meant to encompass the whole game, not just when Lyn joins.

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30 minutes ago, Florete said:

This rarely matters in this game for dodgy units.

This is blatantly false. A Florina support grants both +3 atk and +15 crit. How can that not matter? Bows give Lyn ranged options Guy just simply doesn't have. This gives her much better flexibility in how she's used.

Lyn can't use it 'forever', but she doesn't need to, she just needs it where it's needed, which should make it last for the tougher early game until later when she just doesn't even need it much anymore. But Lyn is still better than Guy without it because she has just as much speed and typically has better atk.

Why not? It's practically a guaranteed kill against enemies it's effective against, which Guy certainly can't claim.

I dunno, I don't tend to have any trouble keeping her alive.

Oh but it does, early on at least, since Lyn’s avoid isn’t good, before you compare her to anyone else there is a difference between above average and good, having above average bulk in New Mystery does not make your bulk good, same concept here

Oh but consider this - Florina has +2 move compared to Lyn, and any support outside of C is slow enough to be considered a grind to get. Not even considering that quite frankly there are very few effective formations that allow Lyn and Florina to even be close together, much less right next to each other. Bows, as shocking as this may seem, are shit compared to javelins and hand axes. The amount of situations where a bow is useful and not outclassed by a million and one by javelins/hand axes is less than the already small amount of times a sword is useful and not outclassed by a million and one by javelins and hand axes. It also doesn’t come until Ch. 26 at best. Which is very close to the map where javelins and Hand axes are quite frankly mandatory if a unit wants to be considered good for the map (Ch. 29). And Guy having actual bulk early on gives him a lot more flexibility early on than Lyn having a Bow.

Lyn needs the Mani Katti for her combat to be good. It’s quite frankly pretty bad without it (13 attack at level 11 is awful). And Lyn is completely and utterly inferior to guy attack wise, come on, he has +4 strength on her base, it takes her until both are 20/16 to tie him, which is insanely overleveled. And Guy can uncap his speed with an early promotion, allowing him to more easily hit hard lategame doubling thresholds (such as Valkyries), which is one of the few times lategame that either would be relevant.

Not versus Knights. And keep in mind that positioning matters, it’s possible for Lyn to be able to kill the enemy, but it could put her in a bad situation. Guy’s bulk is higher to the point where he consistently takes 1-2 more hits, allowing him to more easily be used.

When I say Lyn’s avoid won’t prevent her from being killed, I mean when she’s in a situation when she’d actually be helpful, or in several situations you could put Guy in. You certaintly could use her without her being in danger, but at that point she’s really just cleaning up spares, which basically anyone can do. Lyn’s bulk is atrocious early on, since her avoid isn’t high enough that you can reliably bet on the enemy to miss, and her physical bulk is quite bad.

I don’t even think Guy is good, I just think Lyn is notably worse than him

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12 minutes ago, Florete said:

If you focus on 3 units in LHM, Lyn being one of them, lv 9 should be easy. Note that I said atk, not Str, since multiple factors effect this. C Florina is one turn, which is an easy +1. Mani Katti is 8 MT, which Guy needs either a Steel Sword or Killing Edge to match early on, the former of which drops his Spd by 5 and the latter of which is much more limited in use and can be used by anyone with swords. There's the potential that Lyn got the LHM Energy Ring which Guy doesn't have access to. Then Lyn has +10 Str growth. If she's not better than him in atk right away, she will be soon. And my comment was meant to encompass the whole game, not just when Lyn joins.

The argument was both of them without the Mani Katti or the Killing Edge, though. I'd assume without supports, too, but even with them, Lyn is matching BASE level HM Guy at recruitment with a whole support level and 6 levels on him.

If we're assuming the whole game, then even at 20/1, Lyn has yet to catch up. She won't catch up to Guy in strength until 20/17, and in the end(Without supports), they'll both average 21 Str, but Guy will have 10 HP over her, and outside of that, they'll be statistically identical, with Guy getting a passive +15% Crit boost. She can get attack boosts from Florina, but you're really not using Florina to her maximum potential if you keep her tethered to Lyn so Lyn can get her support boost.

And, well, it's not like the context of this thread really matters anymore due to how hard this has been derailed, but the 3 units in question that are being assumed that you're focusing on are Florina, Sain and Kent. Lyn getting to 9 isn't going to happen in that case. 

Edited by Slumber
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38 minutes ago, Slumber said:

The argument was both of them without the Mani Katti or the Killing Edge, though.

It was, wasn't it? Yeah, I forgot about that.

39 minutes ago, Slumber said:

She can get attack boosts from Florina, but you're really not using Florina to her maximum potential if you keep her tethered to Lyn so Lyn can get her support boost.

Unless you're going for strict LTC, this is a really overstated issue. Yeah, there are times where Florina might fly ahead, but it's not nearly often enough to make the support not still worth it otherwise. Flight isn't just good for going on ahead (which is sometimes just a bad idea), it's good for general maneuverability, even within the core group.

I don't really understand why you keep discounting her support and you're not even mentioning the potential of the Energy Ring. If you're using Lyn but ignoring her options, why even use her?

42 minutes ago, Slumber said:

And, well, it's not like the context of this thread really matters anymore due to how hard this has been derailed, but the 3 units in question that are being assumed that you're focusing on are Florina, Sain and Kent. Lyn getting to 9 isn't going to happen in that case. 

The 3 units are whoever the player chooses them to be.

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Quite frankly I'd personally just avoid using either of them. You get better units, and (personal experience I know) I've found that dodgetanking simply does not work unless you're playing Awakening. Personally in LHM I'd just focus the cavs and Florina, because without the LHM focus Florina's going to be absolute dead weight. And maybe Dorcas, see if he gets some solid early ranks because a good Dorcas is almost a second Hector, but equally if he sucks from LHM then you know not to grab him for EHM/HHM, whichever you follow up with.

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34 minutes ago, Ironthunder said:

Quite frankly I'd personally just avoid using either of them. You get better units, and (personal experience I know) I've found that dodgetanking simply does not work unless you're playing Awakening. Personally in LHM I'd just focus the cavs and Florina, because without the LHM focus Florina's going to be absolute dead weight. And maybe Dorcas, see if he gets some solid early ranks because a good Dorcas is almost a second Hector, but equally if he sucks from LHM then you know not to grab him for EHM/HHM, whichever you follow up with.

It's not about whether you should use them. It's about when you do.

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2 hours ago, Czarpy said:

remind me again, but what's guy's AS with a steel sword by the time Lyn joins you?

On HHM, let us assume we give him 3 levels in four chapters, maybe five if you count Noble Lady of Caelin since Lyn and Guy won't be directly competing here being on opposite sides of the map. That should bring him to 15 Speed (13.1 base + 2), with a fixed 5 Con (how does this make sense when Matthew has 7 and Lucius 6?). Steel Sword is 10 Wt, so he'll be at 10 AS. Not sure how bad/good that is for that point in the game.

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1 hour ago, Ironthunder said:

Quite frankly I'd personally just avoid using either of them. You get better units, and (personal experience I know) I've found that dodgetanking simply does not work unless you're playing Awakening. Personally in LHM I'd just focus the cavs and Florina, because without the LHM focus Florina's going to be absolute dead weight. And maybe Dorcas, see if he gets some solid early ranks because a good Dorcas is almost a second Hector, but equally if he sucks from LHM then you know not to grab him for EHM/HHM, whichever you follow up with.

Dorcas is pretty usable and kills non-axedudes in roughly the same time it takes Guy to kill non-lance dudes with conventional iron/steel weapons/hand axes iirc.

 

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56 minutes ago, Interdimensional Observer said:

On HHM, let us assume we give him 3 levels in four chapters, maybe five if you count Noble Lady of Caelin since Lyn and Guy won't be directly competing here being on opposite sides of the map. That should bring him to 15 Speed (13.1 base + 2), with a fixed 5 Con (how does this make sense when Matthew has 7 and Lucius 6?). Steel Sword is 10 Wt, so he'll be at 10 AS. Not sure how bad/good that is for that point in the game.

Eh, not too shabby. There's a bunch of enemies with 6-7 AS, so Guy can switch between Iron Sword if he needs to in order to double, and Steel if 10-11 AS is enough or if he doesn't double anyway. Guy and (Lyn-mode-trained) Lyn both have pretty decent PP action when they join, it's just that other units will start to combine "pretty decent PP" with better utility in other regards (like mobility, 1-2 range, WT control) sooner or later. It's always worth remembering that FE7 has a pretty balanced cast, at least outside of Marcus's dominance, and that even the worst units are absolutely usable even on HHM.

Edited by ping
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2 hours ago, Florete said:

Unless you're going for strict LTC, this is a really overstated issue. Yeah, there are times where Florina might fly ahead, but it's not nearly often enough to make the support not still worth it otherwise. Flight isn't just good for going on ahead (which is sometimes just a bad idea), it's good for general maneuverability, even within the core group.

How often is Lyn actually on the front lines with Florina? Florida's good for ferrying and hit and runs, which typically don't put her in range of anybody but your frontline fighters, which I'd argue Lyn is not a part of. Lyn's best somewhere near the middle or the back, picking off low HP units and axers(Which Florina definitely wants to avoid). The cases where I'd actually want Florina and Lyn together is strictly when there are a handful of sword units around. 

2 hours ago, Florete said:

I don't really understand why you keep discounting her support and you're not even mentioning the potential of the Energy Ring. If you're using Lyn but ignoring her options, why even use her?

I'm not discounting her supports. She has good supports. The problem comes from her supports potentially being used way differently from Lyn, which leaves her in awkward positions for most chapters that aren't defense chapters where she acts as a passive buff for them, and usually not the other way around. She has possibilities, but using them in an argument between her and another mediocre unit is not the best look for her. 

And I'm not discounting the Energy Ring. I mentioned the possibility of using the LHM stat boosters on her, but disregarded that because I personally don't see myself ever doing that, and I don't see anyone doing "optimal play" doing that(They also probably wouldn't use Guy in this case, honestly). Lyn takes a LOT of work to get significant payoff versus Kent, Sain and Florina, and Kent and Florina would get more use out of the LHM Energy Ring. 

Sure. If you give every stat booster in LHM to Lyn and get her to level 9, she'll be slightly better than base HHM Guy. That's really not an argument I care about anymore at this point. 

Edited by Slumber
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6 minutes ago, Slumber said:

How often is Lyn actually on the front lines with Florina? Florida's good for ferrying and hit and runs, which typically don't put her in range of anybody but your frontline fighters, which I'd argue Lyn is not a part of. Lyn's best somewhere near the middle or the back, picking off low HP units and axers(Which Florina definitely wants to avoid). The cases where I'd actually want Florina and Lyn together is strictly when there are a handful of sword units around. 

I'm not discounting her supports. She has good supports. The problem comes from her supports potentially being used way differently from Lyn, which leaves her in awkward positions for most chapters that aren't defense chapters where she acts as a passive buff for them, and usually not the other way around. She has possibilities, but using them in an argument between her and another mediocre unit is not the best look for her. 

And I'm not discounting the Energy Ring. I mentioned the possibility of using the LHM stat boosters on her, but disregarded that because I personally don't see myself ever doing that, and I don't see anyone doing "optimal play" doing that(They also probably wouldn't use Guy in this case, honestly). Lyn takes a LOT of work to get significant payoff versus Kent, Sain and Florina, and Kent and Florina would get more use out of the LHM Energy Ring. 

Sure. If you give every stat booster in LHM to Lyn and get her to level 9, she'll be slightly better than base HHM Guy. That's really not an argument I care about anymore at this point. 

it also gets Erk or Serra more magic for future warp shenanigans if we talk ltc.

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15 minutes ago, Slumber said:

How often is Lyn actually on the front lines with Florina? Florida's good for ferrying and hit and runs, which typically don't put her in range of anybody but your frontline fighters, which I'd argue Lyn is not a part of. Lyn's best somewhere near the middle or the back, picking off low HP units and axers(Which Florina definitely wants to avoid). The cases where I'd actually want Florina and Lyn together is strictly when there are a handful of sword units around. 

I don't really know what to say to this other than...all the time. I've never had any issue with using Lyn as a front line combatant. She was a carry in both my HHM and EHM ranked runs. I've never had trouble keeping her alive. Nothing I say about it ever seems to convince anyone, so I've gotten really tired of going around running numbers and scenarios. If you're really interested, just try using them together in a run of HHM. Maybe it's my play style, I don't know at this point.

Maybe one day I'll do and record another HHM ranked run where I use her. At this point I feel it's the only way to get anything across.

20 minutes ago, Slumber said:

Lyn takes a LOT of work to get significant payoff versus Kent, Sain and Florina, and Kent and Florina would get more use out of the LHM Energy Ring. 

Sure. If you give every stat booster in LHM to Lyn and get her to level 9, she'll be slightly better than base HHM Guy. That's really not an argument I care about anymore at this point. 

See, I've never felt like Lyn takes significant work to get payoff. I just use her, and she works. Yeah, I do typically give her the LHM Energy Ring, and I don't find Kent or Florina get more use out of it. Sometimes I'll give it to someone else if my Lyn is doing really well in Str by Ch 10, though.

There are all of 2 stat boosters in LHM and I never mentioned giving her the Robe.

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I agree with Florete on this, I also had no problem keeping Lyn alive when i put her on front lines.

 

And as long as you didn't skip Lyn story, I find training her to be easy, I never used any items on her and she always turned out just fine for me.

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21 hours ago, Rose482 said:

I agree with Florete on this, I also had no problem keeping Lyn alive when i put her on front lines.

 

And as long as you didn't skip Lyn story, I find training her to be easy, I never used any items on her and she always turned out just fine for me.

But do we all really want to have to wait 10 boring chapters just to have a good lord? Look at Sain or Kent, when they join without training they are already usable while Lyn has atrocious stats and if I were to train her on Lyn's mode then that's wasted potential because I could use the very same effort to give my kills to Sain or Kent who end up much better and even with no effort put into them the cavalier duo is extremely useful.

Remember always kids, when using a cavalier yell *DEEP BREATHS* CHAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAARGEEEEEEEEEEEE!

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