How is using only 3 units in Lyn's Story "optimal"?

[Baldrick]

1 hour ago, DiogoJorge said:

Very little if at all, it comes  naturally

Objectively speaking, no, it doesn't. Rebecca starts off with the worst combat performance of any unit. She has 10 attack, 6 AS with an iron bow, and can't wield steel without crippling her AS. You have to feed her kills for her to keep up, and even if you do that, her speed won't be any better than the faster units you recruit, and her low con will still be an issue.

[eclipse]

8 minutes ago, DiogoJorge said:

He ends up being better, I already stated that Kent is the 3rd best unit in the game.

Alright.

See, the thing about effort is that it can be put into anyone.  The effort you put into Rebecca can be funneled into Florina for an airlift that fights back.  Or, you can shove it into Raven so that he promotes faster.  Lucius could use that effort, so he can hit C staves.

Rebecca's problem is that she probably won't counter-attack half the time she exists (otherwise known as "enemy phase").  Meanwhile, someone with a Javelin (Kent/Florina) or Hand Axe (Raven/Marcus) can, since they're 1-2 range weapons.  Thus, it'll take her longer to get to where she wants to be.  And even then, she has competition, in the form of Louise (who wants to be fielded because she supports Pent. . .and I don't think I need to explain Pent).  Cross-referencing Louise's base stats to Rebecca's growths, Rebecca will hit Louise's bases at the following levels, on average:

HP: Promote at level 13 or wait until level 20
Str: Promote at level 11 or get lucky at level 20
Skl: Promote at level 17 or level 19
Spd: Promote at level 18 or level 20
Lck: Level 20/6
Def: Level 20/9
Res: She needs to go beyond her 15% growth rate

The only area where I think Rebecca will outclass Louise is Strength.  But your issue seems to be Speed, and Rebecca needs to be at a high level before she can even match Louise!  All those kills you fed Rebecca could've gone elsewhere.

[DiogoJorge]

4 hours ago, eclipse said:

Alright.

See, the thing about effort is that it can be put into anyone.  The effort you put into Rebecca can be funneled into Florina for an airlift that fights back.  Or, you can shove it into Raven so that he promotes faster.  Lucius could use that effort, so he can hit C staves.

Rebecca's problem is that she probably won't counter-attack half the time she exists (otherwise known as "enemy phase").  Meanwhile, someone with a Javelin (Kent/Florina) or Hand Axe (Raven/Marcus) can, since they're 1-2 range weapons.  Thus, it'll take her longer to get to where she wants to be.  And even then, she has competition, in the form of Louise (who wants to be fielded because she supports Pent. . .and I don't think I need to explain Pent).  Cross-referencing Louise's base stats to Rebecca's growths, Rebecca will hit Louise's bases at the following levels, on average:

HP: Promote at level 13 or wait until level 20
Str: Promote at level 11 or get lucky at level 20
Skl: Promote at level 17 or level 19
Spd: Promote at level 18 or level 20
Lck: Level 20/6
Def: Level 20/9
Res: She needs to go beyond her 15% growth rate

The only area where I think Rebecca will outclass Louise is Strength.  But your issue seems to be Speed, and Rebecca needs to be at a high level before she can even match Louise!  All those kills you fed Rebecca could've gone elsewhere.

 

No, Rebecca is definetely outclassing Louise. Her averages clearly show that Rebecca is faster and stronger than Louise is at the same level as a Sniper, in fact, she's usually already just as good as Louise before even promoting at lv 20. Which happens before Louise joins. A lv 4 Sniper Rebecca is superior to Louise's own starting lv 4. Rebecca has more potential, thus she's more valuable than Louise is.

Rebecca always promotes at lv 20, never before, same for pretty much everyone who's not Raven, who promotes at lv 18 or so. The only thing Louise has is some DEF and RES over Rebecca.

That's simple enough considering that she reaches lv 18 at least before promotion. I didn't feed her anything that she wouldn't normally kill, so no problem there, if I had to give every kill to Kent or Lucius, it would take forever to clear the map, so everyone gets their share as long they are usefull.

[DiogoJorge]

5 hours ago, Baldrick said:

Objectively speaking, no, it doesn't. Rebecca starts off with the worst combat performance of any unit. She has 10 attack, 6 AS with an iron bow, and can't wield steel without crippling her AS. You have to feed her kills for her to keep up, and even if you do that, her speed won't be any better than the faster units you recruit, and her low con will still be an issue.

I don't see how, she helps others get kills and spares Hector from delivering finishing blows to Pegasus Knights, thus allowing him to move past them and waste less turns killing weakened enemies.

Also, Barte is the one with the worst combat ability early on, can't fight almost anything whitout getting doubled. 

If that's feeding kills, then everyone in my party is being fed all the same, since all kills they got is due to them being usefull, same for Rebecca.

Is there anyway to delete posts? I forgot to multi-quote, so I wish to correct that.

Edited June 11, 2018 by DiogoJorge

[Shadow Mir]

16 hours ago, DiogoJorge said:

I know I'm right, since it not only crossed my mind, but I refuted it.

Most enemies aren't SPD demons, but they aren't as slow as you imply. The fact that only units with around 10 SPD or more can double or so is proof that they aren't as slow as you would want to make me believe.  Even then, you need at least 15 SPD to truely double consistently for most of the game.

I don't care if you take me seriously or not. I don't need to help my case, only to state the truth, whatever they agree with me or not, it's their problem.

I already proved it. She causes good damage due to doubling. It's not masssive favouritism, by that logic, guess Guy is favoured as well, since he's level 10 as well, same for Kent. The only thing you are right about is that she isn't a good boss killer, since most are Knights or Generals, which she lacks the Steel or Silver Bow yet to do do any decent damage to them, but otherwise, she is usually causing good damage.

7 damage on the earliest chapters is good damage, whatever you want to call it. Once she starts doubling, that becomes 14 or more due to both STR and SPD raising fast enough. I don't need to go out of my way to do so, she provides with plenty of opportunities for ranged attacks, specially since enemies on the other side of the wall are a thing.

Archers do, and it's simple enough to put her in the limit of enemy ranged attacks.

I didn't say that it was guaranteed. Averages aren't guaranteed either, so you can't use that as argument either by your logic.

If you are finished, then let's agree to disagree, because this topic has been going for too long now and since neither of us will be convinced, this isn't going anywhere.

Except the numbers don't back up what you're saying.

Look at the stats posted earlier in this thread. Or the HHM stats thread. Most of the fast units I see there are mercenaries and myrmidons, or their promoted equivalents (who have good speed and the con to use most of their weapons with little AS loss). There are others, but the other fast classes tend to weigh themselves down with heavy weapons (pirates and Pegasus Knights). You don't need to be a speed demon to double when most units weigh themselves down with steel weaponry. Unless, again, the enemies in question are mercs, heroes, myrmidons, or swordmasters.

Untirtunately for you, the numbers fail to support your statements.

How is she getting there when her enemy Phase can be best summed up by "put her such that she's just in range that the enemy has no choice but to attack her at range"? And if I want "good damage", I'd look to Marcus or Oswin with a hand axe or javelin, who can do more than just slightly wound the enemy, and more importantly, do it to multiple enemies, because then I have an easier time cleaning up on my next Player Phase than with Rebecca leaving one enemy dead at best and everything else unscathed. Rebecca's no Takumi, who can heavily damage whatever he attacks. Also, it isn't just the armors she can't do anything to - the boss in her join chapter has 36 HP and 7 defence. And it only gets worse from there on out. FYI, we're talking about the same Rebecca who starts out 4HKOing AT BEST against non-flying units. That's not a good sign, as I see it. Especially since non-fliers are more common than the fliers she can actually do something to.

You know what else is simple? Putting Marcus/Oswin/Sain/what have you into enemy range. Except unlike your precious Rebecca, they're not helpless if someone gets up close. Ahh, the wonders of 1-2 range... Also, Rebecca dies in 2 hits, so while she can counter archers, she can only afford to do so once, and is taking more damage than she's giving in return; her performance against enemy archers is a possible 5HKO. So why should I have her lure in an archer and tickle them in return for losing over half her health when I could instead have someone like Marcus draw them in and kill or at least severely wound them, and much more?

Averages are used in discussion because level ups are random. Is that so difficult to grasp?

Edited June 11, 2018 by Levant Mir Celestia

[DisobeyedCargo]

18 minutes ago, DiogoJorge said:

 

No, Rebecca is definetely outclassing Louise. Her averages clearly show that Rebecca is faster and stronger than Louise is at the same level as a Sniper, in fact, she's usually already just as good as Louise before even promoting at lv 20. Which happens before Louise joins. A lv 4 Sniper Rebecca is superior to Louise's own starting lv 4. Rebecca has more potential, thus she's more valuable than Louise is.

Rebecca always promotes at lv 20, never before, same for pretty much everyone who's not Raven, who promotes at lv 18 or so. The only thing Louise has is some DEF and RES over Rebecca.

That's simple enough considering that she reaches lv 18 at least before promotion. I didn't feed her anything that she wouldn't normally kill, so no problem there, if I had to give every kill to Kent or Lucius, it would take forever to clear the map, so everyone gets their share as long they are usefull.

Except that she has one of the worst starts in the entire game. She needs so much babying to even get to the level of LouiseS bases, or arena abusing, which while I may be willing to do, not everyone is due to the risks it has.

even then, she is still not garunteed to be as good as Louise due to random level ups. 

Lousie starts strong, can support pent (we don't need to remind anyone how godlike pent is), and has bases competent enough to carry her through the game.  

Meanwhile, Rebecca has one of the worst starts possible with low bases in everything, has to be fed kills just to level up or take a risk with the arena, brings nothing noteworthy to the table other than her "speed, which is quite low starting at a base 6 song with a measly 5 con.

[eclipse]

3 hours ago, DiogoJorge said:

 

No, Rebecca is definetely outclassing Louise. Her averages clearly show that Rebecca is faster and stronger than Louise is at the same level as a Sniper, in fact, she's usually already just as good as Louise before even promoting at lv 20. Which happens before Louise joins. A lv 4 Sniper Rebecca is superior to Louise's own starting lv 4. Rebecca has more potential, thus she's more valuable than Louise is.

Rebecca always promotes at lv 20, never before, same for pretty much everyone who's not Raven, who promotes at lv 18 or so. The only thing Louise has is some DEF and RES over Rebecca.

That's simple enough considering that she reaches lv 18 at least before promotion. I didn't feed her anything that she wouldn't normally kill, so no problem there, if I had to give every kill to Kent or Lucius, it would take forever to clear the map, so everyone gets their share as long they are usefull.

. . .and here's where you're wrong.

First, the game can and will let you promote before level 20.  To assume a level 20 promotion is faulty when debating character averages.  Promotion occurs when the power spike is needed.  In this case, it's whenever Rebecca needs four points of strength to kill something.

Second, that's assuming that Rebecca hits that level by the time Louise is recruited.  Again, if you're putting that much effort into Rebecca, you could also make that argument for anyone else who gets that many resources pumped into them.  Imagine what would happen if Bartre sniped all those kills instead of Rebecca!

[ping]

3 hours ago, DiogoJorge said:

Rebecca has more potential, thus she's more valuable than Louise is.

And that's where you're wrong. More often than not, "potential" in a Fire Emblem is something that's absent when it matters and irrelevant when it arrives.

Look at Bartre - he has actually some real good potential. Throw a speedwing at him and he'll get to a point where he'll double most unpromoted enemies (of which there's a surprising amount even in VoD) that aren't mercs or myrms and he'll actually be close to one-shotting them with a Swordreaver. Attack speed just doesn't progress all that much on the enemy's side in FE 7. Does that make him a good unit? Of course not. His earlygame is shaky as hell because he really needs that first speed proc, so most people put him in the "scrub" category of ch.12 roster alongside Dorcas and Rebecca.

Instead of some lofty claims of "potential", focus on what Rebecca actually does. More precisely, what can Rebecca do what others can't?

Early-game chip? She gets points for free deployment in the first couple chapters, sure, but her chip is very weak. 4 Str with an Iron bow is atrocious. How bad? Well, Bartre does more damage to an pegasus knight than Rebecca at base level:

• Bartre w/iron: 9 Str + 8 Might + 1 WTA = 18 attack
• Rebecca w/iron: 4 Str + 2*6 Might = 16 attack

Rebecca doesn't even have an accuracy advantage - their Skl and Lck bases are identical and thanks to WTA, the iron axe is just as accurate as the bow.

So, for a second time, I compare Bartre (a rather shitty unit) favourably to Rebecca, in a situation that should be tailored to Rebecca's ability. Quality unit right here.

Later in the game, Rebecca does NOT have any statistical advantage over other growth units. Her Spd is merely above average, her Str is rather low, her durability is bad. Rebecca is a unit with weak base stats that grows with into a unit with average stats, with no horse, with a horrible weapon type, without any positive unique features that make up for it. Rebecca ticks all the checkboxes of the Shitty Early Game Archer Archetype - weak start, average stats once she gets rolling - with the added disadvantage of being in a game where the main features of a bow user (i.e. accurate 2-range chip and flyer sniping) are either not particulary sought after or just not as good as in other games (x2 multiplier, yo).

Speaking of Shitty Early Game Archers: Feeding kills to a bow user is always favouritism. The main question is whether or not it is justified beyond "I like that character", which is admittedly always a sufficient reason. And sometimes it is - Hunter!Luke in FE12 (or Ryan in the prologue, or even Warren or Castor when they join) comes to mind, as do Shin or Sue in FE6 - because in some games, the perks of a good bow user are actually relevant. But I'll repeat myself: FE7 is not such a game.
But to get to the point: If there's an enemy that you can't one-round, the "optimal" use of a bow user is usually (when the enemy wields a 1-ranged weapon) to attack the enemy first so that the melee unit can finish the enemy off without eating a counterattack. Doing it the other way around means that you'll have to heal the melee unit or use a vulnerary, so unless you're purposefully looking for opportunities to grind staff ranks, setting up kills for an archer means that you're not using said archer's abilities in an optimal way. Pair that with the fact that you can only set up good enemy phases for an archer in very specific situations and you have the explaination why an archer's XP curve will always keep below, say, a cavalier's, unless you specifically try to counteract this, i.e. apply favouritism.

And that is the reason why it's quite consistently a good idea to replace your earlygame archers with later-joining prepromoted snipers - Klein and Igrene instead of Wolt and Dorothy, Louise instead of Rebecca, Innes instead of Neimi, Jeorge instead of Gordon - even if their average stats at a given level isn't quite as good. Well, and sometimes, their averages are quite as good, too. ;) But accepting that your early archer will hit the bench sooner or later will not only allow you to funnel more XP into better units, it also allows the archer to actually do his fucking job - i.e. chip damage - instead of forcing other units to take damage so that the archer can secure the kill. Again, this investment has enough payoff to be worth it, but FE is not such a game and Rebecca is not such a unit.

[Baldrick]

9 hours ago, DiogoJorge said:

I don't see how, she helps others get kills and spares Hector from delivering finishing blows to Pegasus Knights, thus allowing him to move past them and waste less turns killing weakened enemies.

Anyone can finish off weakened pegasus knights, even Eliwood. Her combat is lacking against the other units in the game.

9 hours ago, DiogoJorge said:

Also, Barte is the one with the worst combat ability early on, can't fight almost anything whitout getting doubled. 

Anything that doubles Bartre he can hurl a Hand Axe at to basically replicate Rebecca. Even if he has to engage them, his massive HP will stop him from being one-rounded, and unlike Rebecca he can at least counterattack.

Anything that doesn't double him, he has a clear advantage against. Higher attack, even against pegasus knights (steel bows not being available until chapter 16), and the ability to counter at 1-range, or attack archers without being countered. The enemies that Rebecca will be able to double generally have high enough defence that Bartre will do more damage with one hit anyway.

Defensively, neither of them are great, but Bartre has enough HP that he will likely be 3HKO'd, whereas Rebecca will likely be 2HKO'd.

9 hours ago, DiogoJorge said:

If that's feeding kills, then everyone in my party is being fed all the same, since all kills they got is due to them being usefull, same for Rebecca.

"Feeding" generally refers to playing slowly and carefully to ensure a certain unit gets a lot of kills. Most units are good enough that you don't need to set up kills for them.

[Just call me AL]

A bit of a question that hasn't been addressed, but @DiogoJorge, with all of your certainty that Rebecca is a good unit, have you ever S-Ranked the game using Rebecca as a mainstay on your team? Or at the very least recorded how many turns you spent in each chapter in which you have used Rebecca?

[Icelerate]

Rebecca is only superior to Karla, Wallace, Nino and Wil IMO. 

[DiogoJorge]

4 hours ago, Just call me AL said:

A bit of a question that hasn't been addressed, but @DiogoJorge, with all of your certainty that Rebecca is a good unit, have you ever S-Ranked the game using Rebecca as a mainstay on your team? Or at the very least recorded how many turns you spent in each chapter in which you have used Rebecca?

In Hector Hard Mode? Simple, by taking into account the number of turns I needed for each chapter. You aren't forced to rush everysingle one of them, only have to make sure that by the final chapter you are under a certain number.

I S ranked it once, but I'm not going to bother doing it ever again, since it's more effort than it's worth, there's nothing in it for me for doing so other than completation sake, there's no gold or experience to gain from doing so, so it's pointless as it means rushing too much with impratical strategies. The most effective way to play is aimed at A rank instead, since the tactics rank is bugged in Hector Hard Mode, 3 stars in tactics is much more reasonable than what it takes to get 5 stars, as it allows you to play in a more effective manner.

As for Rebecca, there's plenty of enemies that she can pick on so that the other units don't have to waste turns killing, thus allowing a unit like Hector to focus on bigger fry.

Honestly, so far in my current playthrough, Hector was been more detrimental to turn count, which I don't care much about other than to get A rank, than Rebbeca was, since he misses a bit often with handaxes, specially in his starting chapter which suffers from that bug, and he's the best unit in the game.

 

Edited June 12, 2018 by DiogoJorge

[ping]

45 minutes ago, DiogoJorge said:

Honestly, so far in my current playthrough, Hector was been more detrimental to turn count, which I don't care much about other than to get A rank, than Rebbeca was, since he misses a bit often with handaxes, specially in his starting chapter which suffers from that bug, and he's the best unit in the game.

At no point in the game beyond chapter 11 is Hector the best unit on your team. I'd provide numbers, but you'd ignore them anyway.

But I'll try again to get through with this question:

16 hours ago, ping said:

Instead of some lofty claims of "potential", focus on what Rebecca actually does. More precisely, what can Rebecca do what others can't?

Until now, the list you've provided includes zero items.

[Just call me AL]

1 hour ago, DiogoJorge said:

In Hector Hard Mode? Simple, by taking into account the number of turns I needed for each chapter. You aren't forced to rush every single one of them, only have to make sure that by the final chapter you are under a certain number.

Then let me put this another way: How many turns do YOU think are needed to clear each chapter?

1 hour ago, DiogoJorge said:

3 stars in tactics is much more reasonable than what it takes to get 5 stars, as it allows you to play in a more effective manner.

The mere fact that you're saying this so brazenly doesn't really say good things about your skill level, personally speaking.

1 hour ago, DiogoJorge said:

As for Rebecca, there's plenty of enemies that she can pick on so that the other units don't have to waste turns killing, thus allowing a unit like Hector to focus on bigger fry.

Hector's not the best unit on the team past Ch 11, but I'm digressing here. At any rate this question was presented to you, and it deserves answering: What can Rebecca do that other units cannot?

[DiogoJorge]

3 hours ago, Just call me AL said:

Then let me put this another way: How many turns do YOU think are needed to clear each chapter?

The mere fact that you're saying this so brazenly doesn't really say good things about your skill level, personally speaking.

Hector's not the best unit on the team past Ch 11, but I'm digressing here. At any rate this question was presented to you, and it deserves answering: What can Rebecca do that other units cannot?

 

On average? That would be about 10 per chapter or so, not a realistic number for some chapters, since some are either smaller or larger, but if one can finish the game in less than 350 turns, that's efficient enough.

But it does speak well of my skill level, since there's nothing to be gained from rushing. The best strategies rely less on suicidal rushes and to effectively defeat the enemy, for that purpose, you don't need to have a ridiculously low turn count, only elitists would such "efficiency" as a measure for what makes a good unit.

He is. He's the best tank and has good offensive skills, so he easily becomes one of the best if not outright the best of all.

Simple, she can double with ranged weapons, bait enemy archers as well other ranged attackers and she has vantage over fliers and since some of those use javelins is a perfect setup. Also if we go by the logic of doing what other units cannot, then I would only Deploy Hector, a flier and a healer, since they would be able to do everything other units can, which is a fallacy and very ineffective way of playing.

Edited June 12, 2018 by DiogoJorge

[Just call me AL]

8 hours ago, DiogoJorge said:

On average? That would be about 10 per chapter or so, not a realistic number for some chapters, since some are either smaller or larger, but if one can finish the game in less than 350 turns, that's efficient enough.

1. It's 310 turns, not 350, that's the goal. 2. You're most likely not going to break beneath that many turns total throughout the playthrough if you have Rebecca take more kills than she needs to; something that a notion like promoting Rebecca over Rath or selling/storing the Orion's Bolt entails.

Quote

But it does speak well of my skill level, since there's nothing to be gained from rushing. The best strategies rely less on suicidal rushes and to effectively defeat the enemy, for that purpose, you don't need to have a ridiculously low turn count, only elitists would such "efficiency" as a measure for what makes a good unit.

The thing is, though, is that if both strategies end up with the same result, and one strategy achieved the result the other did in a smaller amount of time (or in this case, turns), the one with the smaller time is considered the superior strategy. There's a reason why I posted YouTube videos of FE7 gameplay a few pages ago, and it's to illustrate that very point.

Quote

He is. He's the best tank

There's other units in the game that can be called great tanks that don't have Hector's limitations. Like Hawkeye, Marcus, and Harken.

Quote

and has good offensive skills

Which don't exist in FE7.

Quote

so he easily becomes one of the best if not outright the best of all.

Even though, Florina, Raven, Kent, Sain, and (especially) Marcus are all better?

Quote

Simple, she can double with ranged weapons, bait enemy archers as well other ranged attackers and she has vantage over fliers and since some of those use javelins is a perfect setup.

Which is literally nothing unique, as others have (more than) adequately shown. All I can do at this point is break this statement down to show why.

Quote

she can double with ranged weapons

So can Marcus, Sain, Kent, Florina, Heath, Fiora, Geitz, Harken, Hector, Rath, and Louise. And most of those don't even use bows.

Quote

bait enemy archers as well other ranged attackers

So can many of those who I listed above. And not only without fear of dying in one round, but also without fear of leaving the enemy alive to boot!

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and she has vantage over fliers and since some of those use javelins is a perfect setup

That "advantage" is offset by Rebecca's poor bases, and by the fact that said "advantage" is only 2x the weapon's Mt. It would be 100% easier to place a hand axe user within a Javelin-using Pegasus Knight's range, due to WTA and the greater guarantee that the Pegasus Knight would be dead by the start of the player phase.

Quote

Also if we go by the logic of doing what other units cannot, then I would only deploy Hector, a flier and a healer, since they would be able to do everything other units can, which is a fallacy and very ineffective way of playing.

What we mean by "do what other units cannot", however, is stuff like save money via prepromoted status, double a significant number of enemies during a portion where many of your own units cannot, or, to get into specifics, the fact that Pent can use A rank Staves while Erk would have to grind to be able to do so whereas Nino can never feasibly be able to do the same even with favoritism. And as far as I and others can see, there's nothing that Rebecca can do that other units cannot.

Edited June 12, 2018 by Just call me AL

[Paper Jam]

What we mean by "do what other units cannot", however, is stuff like save money via prepromoted status, double a significant number of enemies during a portion where many of your own units cannot, or, to get into specifics, the fact that Pent can use A rank Staves while Erk would have to grind to be able to do so whereas Nino can never feasibly be able to do the same even with favoritism.

Pent isn't the only one who can use A-rank staves, though; Serra and Priscilla can too. So Pent isn't "doing what other units cannot" just because he has a high staff level.

[Just call me AL]

9 minutes ago, Paper Jam said:

Pent isn't the only one who can use A-rank staves, though; Serra and Priscilla can too. So Pent isn't "doing what other units cannot" just because he has a high staff level.

But are either of them feasibly expected to do so? Even with consideration to the slow EXP gain staves have? Besides, that comment was in reflection to Pent's class specifically.

[Florete]

8 minutes ago, Just call me AL said:

But are either of them feasibly expected to do so? Even with consideration to the slow EXP gain staves have? Besides, that comment was in reflection to Pent's class specifically.

If you actually focus on leveling them, yeah, it's pretty easy, particularly once Barrier and Physic come into play.

[Aut]

22 minutes ago, Paper Jam said:

 

Pent isn't the only one who can use A-rank staves, though; Serra and Priscilla can too. So Pent isn't "doing what other units cannot" just because he has a high staff level.

While it’s true that Pent isn’t the only one that can use high ranking staves, he is the only one that’s guarenteed to have non ass magic, which is definitely a concern for both Priscilla and Serra, since Priscilla’s magic is kinda meh and serra’s Magic is on average pretty bad. That extra range can matter in certain situations, and and Pent has a +4 range over the default range, so he’s guarenteed to at least have decent range. And I personally can think of at least two times where Pent’s high range can be extremely helpful 

[Interdimensional Observer]

2 hours ago, Aut said:

While it’s true that Pent isn’t the only one that can use high ranking staves, he is the only one that’s guarenteed to have non ass magic, which is definitely a concern for both Priscilla and Serra, since Priscilla’s magic is kinda meh and serra’s Magic is on average pretty bad.

About that:

Serra:

Spoiler

Lv 1: 2 Mag Lv 10: 6.5 Mag

Lv 20/1: 12.5 Mag Lv 20/10: 17 Mag

Lv 20/20: 22 Mag

Priscilla:

Spoiler

Lv 3: 6 Mag Lv 10: 8.8 Mag

Lv 20/1: 14.8 Lv 20/10: 18.4 Mag

Lv 20/20: 22.4 Mag

A 10/1 Lucius: 13 Mag

A 20/1 Lucius: 19 Mag

And by 20/11, Lucius has capped his 25 Mag. 

Base /6 Pent: 18 Mag

Originally, I set out with the goal of disproving the inconsistency between your Priscilla and Serra statements, knowing their 20/20 Mag was the same. But upon looking at the other numbers, you're right after all in all but the 20/20 situation. And the Lucius and Pent data is just there to show how the other two viable good staff users are. Lucius I wouldn't say blows the default healers out of the water, but that it takes them ten extra levels to reach the level of Lucius's Magic prior to capping, is good evidence of how he is arguably better.

Canas and Erk by the way are slightly better and slightly worse than Priscilla in terms of Magic, so if anything, I'd call her not "meh", but average (Pent by the way also hits 22 at 20/20, Erk is only 21), and Canas, Lucius and Nino "high" Magic.

Edited June 13, 2018 by Interdimensional Observer

[MacLovin]

Iirc, Canas/Erk have been used as Warpers in LTC draft runs, so it's very possible to get them to high stave ranks within more lax guidelines of playing.

 

haven't read the last few pages, but speed isn't all that important a stat in fe7 since you only need like 15 SPD to double 80% of the game or some shit. I remember hearing that base Isadora has all the speed you'd need for the game.

[DiogoJorge]

8 hours ago, Just call me AL said:

1. It's 310 turns, not 350, that's the goal. 2. You're most likely not going to break beneath that many turns total throughout the playthrough if you have Rebecca take more kills than she needs to; something that a notion like promoting Rebecca over Rath or selling/storing the Orion's Bolt entails.

The thing is, though, is that if both strategies end up with the same result, and one strategy achieved the result the other did in a smaller amount of time (or in this case, turns), the one with the smaller time is considered the superior strategy. There's a reason why I posted YouTube videos of FE7 gameplay a few pages ago, and it's to illustrate that very point.

There's other units in the game that can be called great tanks that don't have Hector's limitations. Like Hawkeye, Marcus, and Harken.

Which don't exist in FE7.

Even though, Florina, Raven, Kent, Sain, and (especially) Marcus are all better?

Which is literally nothing unique, as others have (more than) adequately shown. All I can do at this point is break this statement down to show why.

So can Marcus, Sain, Kent, Florina, Heath, Fiora, Geitz, Harken, Hector, Rath, and Louise. And most of those don't even use bows.

So can many of those who I listed above. And not only without fear of dying in one round, but also without fear of leaving the enemy alive to boot!

That "advantage" is offset by Rebecca's poor bases, and by the fact that said "advantage" is only 2x the weapon's Mt. It would be 100% easier to place a hand axe user within a Javelin-using Pegasus Knight's range, due to WTA and the greater guarantee that the Pegasus Knight would be dead by the start of the player phase.

What we mean by "do what other units cannot", however, is stuff like save money via prepromoted status, double a significant number of enemies during a portion where many of your own units cannot, or, to get into specifics, the fact that Pent can use A rank Staves while Erk would have to grind to be able to do so whereas Nino can never feasibly be able to do the same even with favoritism. And as far as I and others can see, there's nothing that Rebecca can do that other units cannot.

Marcus, Harken and Hawkeye are inferior to Hector, what you are talking about? What limitations? Hector has  greater DEF than either of them. Harken is the only one who might be just as fast as Hector and even then, he lacks Hector's DEF and STR. Marcus DEF is laughable, 15% DEF growth, 60% HP growth, and only 10 base, even Lyn can tank better than him by the final chapters.

310 is unreasonable, since it relies on satisfying a bugged tactics rank. The amount of effort necessary is just not worth it, one isn't paid enough to do it that fast. Thus, it's counterproductive, since it's not as effective as taking the time necessary to have a proper party, rather than rely on crippled units and thus make it unecessarily harder on yourself. I don't need to, Rebecca isn't in the frontlines and since she's not a lord, it takes about the same time if I really wanted to rush the game like a fanatic.

She doesn't take more kills than she needs to. She kills what she has to kill in order to help the frontliners not wasting turns taking out the small fries in front of them. Not to mention plenty of enemies on the the other side of the wall in a good deal of chapters and Balista use. That's usually enough for her to end up being preferable to Rath, since Rath joins a bit late and thus doesn't contribute with about a dozen chapters of deployment like Rebecca does.

The one strategy that takes less effort is the better one, having better units means that the game is easier than relying on most pre-promotes. The only good ones are Pent, Geitz and Harken, everyone else is not worth using to the end, period. 

Marcus is slower, Sain is slower as well although not as much as Marcus. Kent, Heath, Hector, and Harken are superior to Rebecca. Louise and Rath are inferior, they join late and Louise has lesser stats than Rebecca does as a lv 4 Sniper. Geitz is not as fast and cannot use Balista. Also, I mentioned this before, but Javelins and Handaxes have lower MT than bows, so even Paladins need more STR to make up for it, and only Sain has high STR, which doesn't make up for his somewhat decent SPD. Not to mention that among those, neither can use the Brave Bow as well as Rebecca does.

I don't have that kind of problem, since Rebecca is rarely attacked and usually at range so she strikes backs and since by doubling and having decent STR, she can erase most enemies in player phase and kill at least one enemy in enemy phase if I so desire.

Rebecca's bases aren't poor, they are average. No, it wouldn't be easier, a hand axe has low accuracy, Hector and the like miss a bit often with those, specially during early chapters.

I don't want to save money, it's meant to be spent, I'm not handicapping myself by using pre-promotes with inferior stats. For the funds, that's what the Silver Card and the final secret shop are for.

Erk has better stats than Pent, so he's preferable to use over Pent. Not that matters much since Lucius is the main magic user for me, with Serra being the healer and main staff user.

The same can be said about Marcus, what does he do that Kent cannot? Rebecca is a good unit, so even if other units can do the same, she is usually better at it than a good deal of them. She certainly has a good deal of characters beat in the ranged department, considering that a good deal have similiar STR growths to her but lack her SPD, and since Javelins and handaxes have lower MT than the higher tier bows, it comes as no suprise why Rebecca contributes aplenty.

Edited June 13, 2018 by DiogoJorge

[ping]

3 hours ago, DiogoJorge said:

Marcus, Harken and Hawkeye are inferior to Hector, what you are talking about? What limitations? Hector has  greater DEF than either of them. Harken is the only one who might be just as fast as Hector and even then, he lacks Hector's DEF and STR. Marcus DEF is laughable, 15% DEF growth, 60% HP growth, and only 10 base, even Lyn can tank better than him by the final chapters.

I don't mean to shittalk Hector - he is a pretty good unit, especially when compared to the other GBA lords, but Marcus runs circles around for the majority of the game. Yes, Marcus's combat will fall behind when endgame approaches, but I'll repeat myself yet again: What a unit does is way more important than what a unit's potential is. Who really cares about how a unit fares against the Fire Dragon when Body Ring!Athos+Dancer+Healer can one-round it very reliably? And for most of the game, Marcus is just so much more valuable than Hector, or rather any other unit in the game. The fact that the earlygame (just like in most other FE games) tends to be significantly more difficult than later parts only adds to Marcus's greatness.

Fun fact: Hector only barely reaches Marcus's base speed (11) before level 20 (his average is 11.65). And keep in mind that Hector in his own mode promotes really, really late, so he'll be stuck with that speed for a long time. Marcus starts with A/A/B weapon ranks, so his weapon triangle control is ridiculously good, which adds to both his reliability and survivability. Marcus is absolutely broken for like half the game, still really good for another quarter, and a decent filler unit in VoD. No other unit in FE7 even comes close to his performance.

Hawkeye starts with the same base strength and speed as level 20 Hector, coupled with 50 HP, 14 Def, and 10 Res. Hector's defensive parameters are 36/17-18/5 - so as long as there's no magical unit in an enemy group, Hector out-tanks Hawkeye if the average enemy Atk is at most 25 (by which Hector is 6-shot and Hawkeye is 5-shot). Agaist 26 Atk, they're both 5-shot, between 27 and 29 they're both both 4-shot, against 30 Akt, Hector gets three-shot while Hawkeye still survives a 4th hit. If the enemy's attack is below 25, Hector obviously has the advantage, but does it really matter if you're 7-shot or 8-shot?
I should say that I would rate Hector higher than Hawkeye, simply because Hector is really useful in the early parts of the game. But when Hawkeye arrives, he's pretty much an upgrade to Hector until the latter finally promotes - same-ish offense (wolf beil isn't that amazing anymore, and Hawkeye is a bit more reliable thanks to better Skl/Lck and he has a chance to compensate for misses with crits), same-ish survivability against physical enemies, much better survivability against anything magical, the occational value of water and peak walking, and of course +1 movement. And that even assumes that Hector is capped.

Harken is kinda in the same boat - I'd rate Hector higher because earlygame, but when he arrives, he's clearly better than Hector. Hector will only match his Str/Spd at level 20/10 - and keep in mind that there's a full 3 chapters (not counting Harken's joining chapter) until Hector can even promote. 42/16/11 as his defensive stats is pretty great, as well - Hector will overtake him some point after promotion, but initially, Harken is about as good against physical enemies and very clearly better against any magical class.

4 hours ago, DiogoJorge said:

I don't have that kind of problem, since Rebecca is rarely attacked and usually at range so she strikes backs and since by doubling and having decent STR, she can erase most enemies in player phase and kill at least one enemy in enemy phase if I so desire.

This has been clubbed over your head repeatedly, but it is not a good thing that Rebecca is rarely attacked. FE7 allows for very productive enemy phase action, so if a unit can only partake in EP in very specific scenarios (or only counter one or two units at best), that is a big argument against that unit.

4 hours ago, DiogoJorge said:

Rebecca's bases aren't poor, they are average. No, it wouldn't be easier, a hand axe has low accuracy, Hector and the like miss a bit often with those, specially during early chapters.

Four Base Strength Is Horrible. Rebecca does less damage against Pegasus Knights than Bartre.
Compared to Lv.1 Florina, Rebecca has +-0 HP, -1 Str, -2 Skl, -3 Spd, -3 Lck, -1 Def, -3 Res.
Compared to Lv.1 Sain, Rebecca has  -2 HP, -3 Str, +1 Skl, +-0 Spd, +-0 Lck, -3 Def, +1 Res.
Erk has better offensive bases (5 vs. 4 Str, 7 vs. 6 Str) and targets resistance.
Matthew has the same base Str as her, as well as +5 Spd.
Kent is stronger, faster and more durable than her.

Rebeccas bases are most definitely poor. She starts out with bad stats, ends up with average stats, and will always be locked in the worst weapon class of the game.

(By the way - why does join time suddenly matter when talking about Rath? Does it have to do with the fact that Rath's average stats are actually better than Rebeccas? With more Str, more Durability and still enough Spd to double most enemies? Not to mention his horse and swords access after promotion?)

[MacLovin]

6 hours ago, DiogoJorge said:

Marcus, Harken and Hawkeye are inferior to Hector, what you are talking about? What limitations? Hector has  greater DEF than either of them. Harken is the only one who might be just as fast as Hector and even then, he lacks Hector's DEF and STR. Marcus DEF is laughable, 15% DEF growth, 60% HP growth, and only 10 base, even Lyn can tank better than him by the final chapters.

310 is unreasonable, since it relies on satisfying a bugged tactics rank. The amount of effort necessary is just not worth it, one isn't paid enough to do it that fast. Thus, it's counterproductive, since it's not as effective as taking the time necessary to have a proper party, rather than rely on crippled units and thus make it unecessarily harder on yourself. I don't need to, Rebecca isn't in the frontlines and since she's not a lord, it takes about the same time if I really wanted to rush the game like a fanatic.

She doesn't take more kills than she needs to. She kills what she has to kill in order to help the frontliners not wasting turns taking out the small fries in front of them. Not to mention plenty of enemies on the the other side of the wall in a good deal of chapters and Balista use. That's usually enough for her to end up being preferable to Rath, since Rath joins a bit late and thus doesn't contribute with about a dozen chapters of deployment like Rebecca does.

The one strategy that takes less effort is the better one, having better units means that the game is easier than relying on most pre-promotes. The only good ones are Pent, Geitz and Harken, everyone else is not worth using to the end, period. 

Marcus is slower, Sain is slower as well although not as much as Marcus. Kent, Heath, Hector, and Harken are superior to Rebecca. Louise and Rath are inferior, they join late and Louise has lesser stats than Rebecca does as a lv 4 Sniper. Geitz is not as fast and cannot use Balista. Also, I mentioned this before, but Javelins and Handaxes have lower MT than bows, so even Paladins need more STR to make up for it, and only Sain has high STR, which doesn't make up for his somewhat decent SPD. Not to mention that among those, neither can use the Brave Bow as well as Rebecca does.

I don't have that kind of problem, since Rebecca is rarely attacked and usually at range so she strikes backs and since by doubling and having decent STR, she can erase most enemies in player phase and kill at least one enemy in enemy phase if I so desire.

Rebecca's bases aren't poor, they are average. No, it wouldn't be easier, a hand axe has low accuracy, Hector and the like miss a bit often with those, specially during early chapters.

I don't want to save money, it's meant to be spent, I'm not handicapping myself by using pre-promotes with inferior stats. For the funds, that's what the Silver Card and the final secret shop are for.

Erk has better stats than Pent, so he's preferable to use over Pent. Not that matters much since Lucius is the main magic user for me, with Serra being the healer and main staff user.

The same can be said about Marcus, what does he do that Kent cannot? Rebecca is a good unit, so even if other units can do the same, she is usually better at it than a good deal of them. She certainly has a good deal of characters beat in the ranged department, considering that a good deal have similiar STR growths to her but lack her SPD, and since Javelins and handaxes have lower MT than the higher tier bows, it comes as no suprise why Rebecca contributes aplenty.

• Do you know how hit is calculated in fe7/8? You don't really need all that much of a skill growth to be able to get decent hitrates for anyone. Hell, sain and lowen have mediocre skill growths and they're consistently highly rated in efficiency based context. (drafts, ltc, ranking, etc.) 
• When does balista ever actually come into play for making shit easier? Yeah sure Rebecca can use them, but when you actually have harder maps with balista, then there's Louise. She gets us a free ballista user later on without taking up exp early on. Furthermore, you're likely to never get rebecca more than maybe a level per chapter if you're playing without favoritism. She's that bad due to no relevant enemy phase.
• FE7 has some of the best prepromotes, what are you smoking? Pent, Hawkeye, Harken, and Isadora are consistently top picks since they either outclass their growth unit counterparts (Erk, Dart) or remain on par with them (Raven and the cavs). Go take a look at earlier threads and the like for more information on why people love the shit out of Pent. 
• By the time we get Rebecca to the point she's reliably ORKOing units, we could have invested that time into someone who's got 1-2 range and can actually take hits. Even Dorcas/Bartre are better  in that regard since they get axes on top of bows. Plus they're likely to hit promotion sooner without blatant favoritism. Furthermore, if we're going to talk about bow users, then Geitz and Rath blow her out of the water. Remember, you don't need more than 15 speed to consistently double non-swordmasters/heroes. Even then, you can still smack them with anything but axes to gang up on them. To top it all off, even if you didn't purposely raise a bow unit or a warrior, then we still have the possibility of promoting Lyn with teh first heaven's seal. She's not the best pick for it, but she at least gets PRF weapons, good supports, and doesn't start at E bows.
• Look up ingame averages. You don't need minmaxed units to beat the game within a draft context, LTC, or ranked. Hawkeye is constantly used for his monstrous bases.  With a pure water, he's an incredibly RES-tank.
• If we're talking about attack, then you'd have to be reminded that strong bows don't arrive consistently until 2/3rds of the game is over. Early on it all iron/steel/short bows with maybe an occassional strong one that's used for bosskilling and the like. But in the case of hand axe/javelin users, they're generally stronger and many of them still hit the AS needed to double enemies. Hell, I'm pretty sure the early soldiers in HHM aren't ORKO'd by Rebecca, but they're easily ORKO'd by literally any non-sword locked unit with 4 AS. 
• If you like Rebecca, that's fine, but there's no reason to continuously try to defend her to this point. Why try to pick a fight over your waifu? I like Nino and all, but I KNOW that she's incredibly bad in any context beyond casual runs. Karla's sexy as hell, but I don't think she's all that great ingame.