Just call me AL

How is using only 3 units in Lyn's Story "optimal"?

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3 hours ago, DiogoJorge said:

Marcus, Harken and Hawkeye are inferior to Hector, what you are talking about? What limitations? Hector has  greater DEF than either of them. Harken is the only one who might be just as fast as Hector and even then, he lacks Hector's DEF and STR. Marcus DEF is laughable, 15% DEF growth, 60% HP growth, and only 10 base, even Lyn can tank better than him by the final chapters.

I don't mean to shittalk Hector - he is a pretty good unit, especially when compared to the other GBA lords, but Marcus runs circles around for the majority of the game. Yes, Marcus's combat will fall behind when endgame approaches, but I'll repeat myself yet again: What a unit does is way more important than what a unit's potential is. Who really cares about how a unit fares against the Fire Dragon when Body Ring!Athos+Dancer+Healer can one-round it very reliably? And for most of the game, Marcus is just so much more valuable than Hector, or rather any other unit in the game. The fact that the earlygame (just like in most other FE games) tends to be significantly more difficult than later parts only adds to Marcus's greatness.

Fun fact: Hector only barely reaches Marcus's base speed (11) before level 20 (his average is 11.65). And keep in mind that Hector in his own mode promotes really, really late, so he'll be stuck with that speed for a long time. Marcus starts with A/A/B weapon ranks, so his weapon triangle control is ridiculously good, which adds to both his reliability and survivability. Marcus is absolutely broken for like half the game, still really good for another quarter, and a decent filler unit in VoD. No other unit in FE7 even comes close to his performance.

Hawkeye starts with the same base strength and speed as level 20 Hector, coupled with 50 HP, 14 Def, and 10 Res. Hector's defensive parameters are 36/17-18/5 - so as long as there's no magical unit in an enemy group, Hector out-tanks Hawkeye if the average enemy Atk is at most 25 (by which Hector is 6-shot and Hawkeye is 5-shot). Agaist 26 Atk, they're both 5-shot, between 27 and 29 they're both both 4-shot, against 30 Akt, Hector gets three-shot while Hawkeye still survives a 4th hit. If the enemy's attack is below 25, Hector obviously has the advantage, but does it really matter if you're 7-shot or 8-shot?
I should say that I would rate Hector higher than Hawkeye, simply because Hector is really useful in the early parts of the game. But when Hawkeye arrives, he's pretty much an upgrade to Hector until the latter finally promotes - same-ish offense (wolf beil isn't that amazing anymore, and Hawkeye is a bit more reliable thanks to better Skl/Lck and he has a chance to compensate for misses with crits), same-ish survivability against physical enemies, much better survivability against anything magical, the occational value of water and peak walking, and of course +1 movement. And that even assumes that Hector is capped.

Harken is kinda in the same boat - I'd rate Hector higher because earlygame, but when he arrives, he's clearly better than Hector. Hector will only match his Str/Spd at level 20/10 - and keep in mind that there's a full 3 chapters (not counting Harken's joining chapter) until Hector can even promote. 42/16/11 as his defensive stats is pretty great, as well - Hector will overtake him some point after promotion, but initially, Harken is about as good against physical enemies and very clearly better against any magical class.

4 hours ago, DiogoJorge said:

I don't have that kind of problem, since Rebecca is rarely attacked and usually at range so she strikes backs and since by doubling and having decent STR, she can erase most enemies in player phase and kill at least one enemy in enemy phase if I so desire.

This has been clubbed over your head repeatedly, but it is not a good thing that Rebecca is rarely attacked. FE7 allows for very productive enemy phase action, so if a unit can only partake in EP in very specific scenarios (or only counter one or two units at best), that is a big argument against that unit.

4 hours ago, DiogoJorge said:

Rebecca's bases aren't poor, they are average. No, it wouldn't be easier, a hand axe has low accuracy, Hector and the like miss a bit often with those, specially during early chapters.

Four Base Strength Is Horrible. Rebecca does less damage against Pegasus Knights than Bartre.
Compared to Lv.1 Florina, Rebecca has +-0 HP, -1 Str, -2 Skl, -3 Spd, -3 Lck, -1 Def, -3 Res.
Compared to Lv.1 Sain, Rebecca has  -2 HP, -3 Str, +1 Skl, +-0 Spd, +-0 Lck, -3 Def, +1 Res.
Erk has better offensive bases (5 vs. 4 Str, 7 vs. 6 Str) and targets resistance.
Matthew has the same base Str as her, as well as +5 Spd.
Kent is stronger, faster and more durable than her.

Rebeccas bases are most definitely poor. She starts out with bad stats, ends up with average stats, and will always be locked in the worst weapon class of the game.

(By the way - why does join time suddenly matter when talking about Rath? Does it have to do with the fact that Rath's average stats are actually better than Rebeccas? With more Str, more Durability and still enough Spd to double most enemies? Not to mention his horse and swords access after promotion?)

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6 hours ago, DiogoJorge said:

Marcus, Harken and Hawkeye are inferior to Hector, what you are talking about? What limitations? Hector has  greater DEF than either of them. Harken is the only one who might be just as fast as Hector and even then, he lacks Hector's DEF and STR. Marcus DEF is laughable, 15% DEF growth, 60% HP growth, and only 10 base, even Lyn can tank better than him by the final chapters.

310 is unreasonable, since it relies on satisfying a bugged tactics rank. The amount of effort necessary is just not worth it, one isn't paid enough to do it that fast. Thus, it's counterproductive, since it's not as effective as taking the time necessary to have a proper party, rather than rely on crippled units and thus make it unecessarily harder on yourself. I don't need to, Rebecca isn't in the frontlines and since she's not a lord, it takes about the same time if I really wanted to rush the game like a fanatic.

She doesn't take more kills than she needs to. She kills what she has to kill in order to help the frontliners not wasting turns taking out the small fries in front of them. Not to mention plenty of enemies on the the other side of the wall in a good deal of chapters and Balista use. That's usually enough for her to end up being preferable to Rath, since Rath joins a bit late and thus doesn't contribute with about a dozen chapters of deployment like Rebecca does.

The one strategy that takes less effort is the better one, having better units means that the game is easier than relying on most pre-promotes. The only good ones are Pent, Geitz and Harken, everyone else is not worth using to the end, period. 

Marcus is slower, Sain is slower as well although not as much as Marcus. Kent, Heath, Hector, and Harken are superior to Rebecca. Louise and Rath are inferior, they join late and Louise has lesser stats than Rebecca does as a lv 4 Sniper. Geitz is not as fast and cannot use Balista. Also, I mentioned this before, but Javelins and Handaxes have lower MT than bows, so even Paladins need more STR to make up for it, and only Sain has high STR, which doesn't make up for his somewhat decent SPD. Not to mention that among those, neither can use the Brave Bow as well as Rebecca does.

I don't have that kind of problem, since Rebecca is rarely attacked and usually at range so she strikes backs and since by doubling and having decent STR, she can erase most enemies in player phase and kill at least one enemy in enemy phase if I so desire.

Rebecca's bases aren't poor, they are average. No, it wouldn't be easier, a hand axe has low accuracy, Hector and the like miss a bit often with those, specially during early chapters.

I don't want to save money, it's meant to be spent, I'm not handicapping myself by using pre-promotes with inferior stats. For the funds, that's what the Silver Card and the final secret shop are for.

Erk has better stats than Pent, so he's preferable to use over Pent. Not that matters much since Lucius is the main magic user for me, with Serra being the healer and main staff user.

The same can be said about Marcus, what does he do that Kent cannot? Rebecca is a good unit, so even if other units can do the same, she is usually better at it than a good deal of them. She certainly has a good deal of characters beat in the ranged department, considering that a good deal have similiar STR growths to her but lack her SPD, and since Javelins and handaxes have lower MT than the higher tier bows, it comes as no suprise why Rebecca contributes aplenty.

  • Do you know how hit is calculated in fe7/8? You don't really need all that much of a skill growth to be able to get decent hitrates for anyone. Hell, sain and lowen have mediocre skill growths and they're consistently highly rated in efficiency based context. (drafts, ltc, ranking, etc.) 
  • When does balista ever actually come into play for making shit easier? Yeah sure Rebecca can use them, but when you actually have harder maps with balista, then there's Louise. She gets us a free ballista user later on without taking up exp early on. Furthermore, you're likely to never get rebecca more than maybe a level per chapter if you're playing without favoritism. She's that bad due to no relevant enemy phase.
  • FE7 has some of the best prepromotes, what are you smoking? Pent, Hawkeye, Harken, and Isadora are consistently top picks since they either outclass their growth unit counterparts (Erk, Dart) or remain on par with them (Raven and the cavs). Go take a look at earlier threads and the like for more information on why people love the shit out of Pent. 
  • By the time we get Rebecca to the point she's reliably ORKOing units, we could have invested that time into someone who's got 1-2 range and can actually take hits. Even Dorcas/Bartre are better  in that regard since they get axes on top of bows. Plus they're likely to hit promotion sooner without blatant favoritism. Furthermore, if we're going to talk about bow users, then Geitz and Rath blow her out of the water. Remember, you don't need more than 15 speed to consistently double non-swordmasters/heroes. Even then, you can still smack them with anything but axes to gang up on them. To top it all off, even if you didn't purposely raise a bow unit or a warrior, then we still have the possibility of promoting Lyn with teh first heaven's seal. She's not the best pick for it, but she at least gets PRF weapons, good supports, and doesn't start at E bows.
  • Look up ingame averages. You don't need minmaxed units to beat the game within a draft context, LTC, or ranked. Hawkeye is constantly used for his monstrous bases.  With a pure water, he's an incredibly RES-tank.
  • If we're talking about attack, then you'd have to be reminded that strong bows don't arrive consistently until 2/3rds of the game is over. Early on it all iron/steel/short bows with maybe an occassional strong one that's used for bosskilling and the like. But in the case of hand axe/javelin users, they're generally stronger and many of them still hit the AS needed to double enemies. Hell, I'm pretty sure the early soldiers in HHM aren't ORKO'd by Rebecca, but they're easily ORKO'd by literally any non-sword locked unit with 4 AS. 
  • If you like Rebecca, that's fine, but there's no reason to continuously try to defend her to this point. Why try to pick a fight over your waifu? I like Nino and all, but I KNOW that she's incredibly bad in any context beyond casual runs. Karla's sexy as hell, but I don't think she's all that great ingame. 

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10 hours ago, Interdimensional Observer said:

About that:

Serra:

  Reveal hidden contents

Lv 1: 2 Mag Lv 10: 6.5 Mag

Lv 20/1: 12.5 Mag Lv 20/10: 17 Mag

Lv 20/20: 22 Mag

Priscilla:

  Reveal hidden contents

Lv 3: 6 Mag Lv 10: 8.8 Mag

Lv 20/1: 14.8 Lv 20/10: 18.4 Mag

Lv 20/20: 22.4 Mag

A 10/1 Lucius: 13 Mag

A 20/1 Lucius: 19 Mag

And by 20/11, Lucius has capped his 25 Mag. 

Base /6 Pent: 18 Mag

Originally, I set out with the goal of disproving the inconsistency between your Priscilla and Serra statements, knowing their 20/20 Mag was the same. But upon looking at the other numbers, you're right after all in all but the 20/20 situation. And the Lucius and Pent data is just there to show how the other two viable good staff users are. Lucius I wouldn't say blows the default healers out of the water, but that it takes them ten extra levels to reach the level of Lucius's Magic prior to capping, is good evidence of how he is arguably better.

Canas and Erk by the way are slightly better and slightly worse than Priscilla in terms of Magic, so if anything, I'd call her not "meh", but average (Pent by the way also hits 22 at 20/20, Erk is only 21), and Canas, Lucius and Nino "high" Magic.

Yeah, that was the way I was thinking. Serra’s base magic is so bad that despite having a good magic growth her magic is the worst (well except arguably Renault but I don’t have to train Renault). With Priscilla when I say her magic is meh I don’t just mean that her magic average is below average, I mean that her leveling is also rather slow, being stuck with healing staves which don’t tend to give a lot of EXP. Which combined with her average magic makes her magically rather weak. Like I could easily get units like Erk and Canas, two units with similar magic to Priscilla, to have significantly higher levels than her if I wanted to. That’s what I mean when I say magically she’s meh. 

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8 hours ago, Aut said:

Yeah, that was the way I was thinking. Serra’s base magic is so bad that despite having a good magic growth her magic is the worst (well except arguably Renault but I don’t have to train Renault). With Priscilla when I say her magic is meh I don’t just mean that her magic average is below average, I mean that her leveling is also rather slow, being stuck with healing staves which don’t tend to give a lot of EXP. Which combined with her average magic makes her magically rather weak. Like I could easily get units like Erk and Canas, two units with similar magic to Priscilla, to have significantly higher levels than her if I wanted to. That’s what I mean when I say magically she’s meh. 

That's an interesting point that Priscilla and Serra are not exactly the best A rank staff users. The only reason A rank matters is if you want to use Fortify or Warp. Which Warp being the more popular option and matters for LTC or S ranking. It will take a very long time to get either of them up to a level to make their magic worth using. Meanwhile you have Lucius who only needs 110 WEXP to turn C rank on promotion to A rank staff usage. Which is honestly not that hard because at C rank you can spam Barrier, Torch, Restore, Mend, Recover and they'll all give 3-5 WEXP and need ~37 turns to reach A rank. A long, long time before you ever really need A rank staff when the first Guiding Ring is chapter 18 and Warp arrives at Cog of Destiny. 

Interesting to look at all of that. 

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I think too many people focus on the potencial energy of a unit when you also need the cinetic part to determine the mechanical energy of a unit, in other words, Engame stats dont matter that much if their midgame performance isn't good, yes ignore my name and everything, those are just memes.  So several units argued here were:
Rebecca: So, no if in Eliwood Had she is unusable then less she is in HHM.
Serra: good growth but low base magic, kinda like bartres 3 base AS
Priscilla: Good base but low growths, still more useful because of her horse.

 

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3 hours ago, Vorena said:

That's an interesting point that Priscilla and Serra are not exactly the best A rank staff users. The only reason A rank matters is if you want to use Fortify or Warp. Which Warp being the more popular option and matters for LTC or S ranking. It will take a very long time to get either of them up to a level to make their magic worth using. Meanwhile you have Lucius who only needs 110 WEXP to turn C rank on promotion to A rank staff usage. Which is honestly not that hard because at C rank you can spam Barrier, Torch, Restore, Mend, Recover and they'll all give 3-5 WEXP and need ~37 turns to reach A rank. A long, long time before you ever really need A rank staff when the first Guiding Ring is chapter 18 and Warp arrives at Cog of Destiny. 

Interesting to look at all of that. 

Warp has to come so late for one reason- to not trivialize Battle Before Dawn, and to a lesser extent NoF, which is also why the Rescue comes only in BBD itself. If you had it just two chapters sooner, defend Zephiel would be as easy as throwing one of your juggernauts over the wall.

 

And I think SS possibly has the same issue of staffs being better on non-base unpromoted staffers. Albeit not as bad owing to Natasha being a bit better of a Serra (60 growth vs. 50) and Artur being a weaker Lucius, no Magic capping until 20/17 as a Bishop. Moulder has poor Magic and L'Arachel is massively behind in levels and thus Magic when she joins and will forever be so.

Lute, if D Staffs is workable, can be a threat to the natural staffbots, since she has basically the Magic of Lucius even as a Mage Knight (with extra move to boot), or more than him as a Sage. Torch and Barrier spam is still possible at D rank, so she can do that. 

Saleh's 16 Magic base is also out of reach for the three natural staffbots until they promote at 20, which is extremely unlikely for Natasha or Moulder, and impossible for L'Arachel in no-grind SS. Getting Eph!Saleh to B or A is a bit time pressed given the length of SS, but for a non-LTC no-grind run, should be possible by loading up on Barrier and Physic in Grado/Jehanna.

And then PoR saw this issue and "fixed" this by giving you no Bishop and both Sages get crappy Knives instead of Staffs. As a small compensation, they lowered Physic to C rank. 

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18 hours ago, Czarpy said:
  • Do you know how hit is calculated in fe7/8? You don't really need all that much of a skill growth to be able to get decent hitrates for anyone. Hell, sain and lowen have mediocre skill growths and they're consistently highly rated in efficiency based context. (drafts, ltc, ranking, etc.) 
  • When does balista ever actually come into play for making shit easier? Yeah sure Rebecca can use them, but when you actually have harder maps with balista, then there's Louise. She gets us a free ballista user later on without taking up exp early on. Furthermore, you're likely to never get rebecca more than maybe a level per chapter if you're playing without favoritism. She's that bad due to no relevant enemy phase.
  • FE7 has some of the best prepromotes, what are you smoking? Pent, Hawkeye, Harken, and Isadora are consistently top picks since they either outclass their growth unit counterparts (Erk, Dart) or remain on par with them (Raven and the cavs). Go take a look at earlier threads and the like for more information on why people love the shit out of Pent. 
  • By the time we get Rebecca to the point she's reliably ORKOing units, we could have invested that time into someone who's got 1-2 range and can actually take hits. Even Dorcas/Bartre are better  in that regard since they get axes on top of bows. Plus they're likely to hit promotion sooner without blatant favoritism. Furthermore, if we're going to talk about bow users, then Geitz and Rath blow her out of the water. Remember, you don't need more than 15 speed to consistently double non-swordmasters/heroes. Even then, you can still smack them with anything but axes to gang up on them. To top it all off, even if you didn't purposely raise a bow unit or a warrior, then we still have the possibility of promoting Lyn with teh first heaven's seal. She's not the best pick for it, but she at least gets PRF weapons, good supports, and doesn't start at E bows.
  • Look up ingame averages. You don't need minmaxed units to beat the game within a draft context, LTC, or ranked. Hawkeye is constantly used for his monstrous bases.  With a pure water, he's an incredibly RES-tank.
  • If we're talking about attack, then you'd have to be reminded that strong bows don't arrive consistently until 2/3rds of the game is over. Early on it all iron/steel/short bows with maybe an occassional strong one that's used for bosskilling and the like. But in the case of hand axe/javelin users, they're generally stronger and many of them still hit the AS needed to double enemies. Hell, I'm pretty sure the early soldiers in HHM aren't ORKO'd by Rebecca, but they're easily ORKO'd by literally any non-sword locked unit with 4 AS. 
  • If you like Rebecca, that's fine, but there's no reason to continuously try to defend her to this point. Why try to pick a fight over your waifu? I like Nino and all, but I KNOW that she's incredibly bad in any context beyond casual runs. Karla's sexy as hell, but I don't think she's all that great ingame. 

-Tell that to Hector and his 60% hit rate with handaxes for much of the early game.

- 80% is good and all, but Rebecca's usual 90%-100% is preferable, also, still higher MT. Specially since there's plenty of terrain for enemies to hide in, and Rebecca's virtually flawless accuracy ensures they are either killed or drastically softened for others to kill.

- Chapter 24 Linus, since she can kill the Bolting Sage and get you a full 5/5 uses Bolting if you can kill him before he attacks, chapter 25 has balista users which block your fliers from attempting to take the northern strongholds, by removing them, it becomes much more simple to take those. That by itself already makes it worth it. Louise is inferior, Rebecca has better stats and growths than she has, Louise has less potential stats, not worth using. This is whitout mentioning the Longbow which is a great tool for striking enemies on the other side of the wall like in Ostia's defense chapter, and Lyn wants to be on the frontlines rather than use bows all the time, so that leaves Rebecca for doing that duty.

- Except that it doesn't require any more investment than any other unit, since all her kills and damage dealing are justified. The same could be said about most other units, there's not a single one that can reliably and consistently ORKO everything, even Marcus cannot double everyone, since some enemies have enough SPD to not be doubled by him, let alone everyone from the early party. By the time they can ORKO everything consistently, so can Rebecca. Geitz and Rath both join way late, Geitz also cannot use A rank bows like Rebecca does at that point, she's also faster than him.

- I already looked at them dozens of times by now and know that her stats are good. I don't need to use her, but the same can be said about using those prepromotes and virtually everyone else that isn't forced deployment. If Hawkeye is a monster, then Hector is a god, since he's usually faster and more durable than Hawkeye is. I too thought that Hawkeye was great when I first played the game, until I realized that Hector blows him and stopped using the crappy axe users like Dorcas and Barte.

- Steel Bows become a thing soon enough, so I don't understand how is that 2/3 game finished.

- Javelins and Handaxes aren't stronger, their MT is low and have lesser accuracy, the fact that an handaxe only has 1 point more of MT than a Iron Bow is pretty much all you need to know that bows are better in the physical ranged department, since almost every other bow will surpass it. Tomahawks and Spears are too rare to ever see much use for most of the game.

- I will defend her, because people are wrong about her as a unit, as long as it keeps being so, I will keep at it. I'm not trying to pick a fight, I'm just explaining why she is a good unit, also she's not my waifu, I defend any character that is good whetever they are male or female.

 

 

 

 

Edited by DiogoJorge

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18 hours ago, DiogoJorge said:

-Tell that to Hector and his 60% hit rate with handaxes for much of the early game.

- 80% is good and all, but Rebecca's usual 90%-100% is preferable, also, still higher MT. Specially since there's plenty of terrain for enemies to hide in, and Rebecca's virtually flawless accuracy ensures they are either killed or drastically softened for others to kill.

- Chapter 24 Linus, since she can kill the Bolting Sage and get you a full 5/5 uses Bolting if you can kill him before he attacks, chapter 25 has balista users which block your fliers from attempting to take the northern strongholds, by removing them, it becomes much more simple to take those. That by itself already makes it worth it. Louise is inferior, Rebecca has better stats and growths than she has, Louise has less potential stats, not worth using. This is whitout mentioning the Longbow which is a great tool for striking enemies on the other side of the wall like in Ostia's defense chapter, and Lyn wants to be on the frontlines rather than use bows all the time, so that leaves Rebecca for doing that duty.

- Except that it doesn't require any more investment than any other unit, since all her kills and damage dealing are justified. The same could be said about most other units, there's not a single one that can reliably and consistently ORKO everything, even Marcus cannot double everyone, since some enemies have enough SPD to not be doubled by him, let alone everyone from the early party. By the time they can ORKO everything consistently, so can Rebecca. Geitz and Rath both join way late, Geitz also cannot use A rank bows like Rebecca does at that point, she's also faster than him.

- I already looked at them dozens of times by now and know that her stats are good. I don't need to use her, but the same can be said about using those prepromotes and virtually everyone else that isn't forced deployment. If Hawkeye is a monster, then Hector is a god, since he's usually faster and more durable than Hawkeye is. I too thought that Hawkeye was great when I first played the game, until I realized that Hector blows him and stopped using the crappy axe users like Dorcas and Barte.

- Steel Bows become a thing soon enough, so I don't understand how is that 2/3 game finished.

- Javelins and Handaxes aren't stronger, their MT is low and have lesser accuracy, the fact that an handaxe only has 1 point more of MT than a Iron Bow is pretty much all you need to know that bows are better in the physical ranged department, since almost every other bow will surpass it. Tomahawks and Spears are too rare to ever see much use for most of the game.

- I will defend her, because people are wrong about her as a unit, as long as it keeps being so, I will keep at it. I'm not trying to pick a fight, I'm just explaining why she is a good unit, also she's not my waifu, I defend any character that is good whetever they are male or female.

 

 

 

 

-True.


-RNG blessed shown, also all that exp you used for Rebecca to gain such accuracy I used to make Sain kill anything with just an iron sword. 


-Oh I used Louise for that, look Rebecca ain't the best at reliably doubling enemies that others ain't, Sain and Kent do it just as well, or i would use guy, or how about i don't since FE7 enemies are so slow a fast unit like Rebecca would be mildly useful in FE6 because wolt sucks and enemies are more durable but FE7? that game has slow enemies everywhere.

_I hate this point so much, She takes a lot of investment to level up she can never kill anything to get 30 or so EXP because other units (except marcus) might require another one to take them down, so usually rebecca is doing unnecessary damage. Look, i gave her the strenght ring as soon as she joined and nope, still doing like 6 damage only gaining 10 EXP and by the end only one level per chapter with the average gains of!!!!!!111!: Skill, luck, res. oh but maybe next level... HP, SKILL, LUCK, and next one? HP, SPD, RES. Her growths dont really say anything, sure she is more likely to be faster than othewr units but that doesnt mean i will get SPD level ups all the time and themn again, whats the point of doubling if you do 1 damage, oh then give her a steel bow so she doesnt double anymore, this is the exact problem with Lyn.

-Yes, hector is so good because he knows how to fucking attack at close range and gain EXP on enemy phase, over here miss huntress cant fire at close range and is only gaining 10 exp per turn from attacking once, also he is good because his bases make him usable and I can use him on chapter 14 if i didnt use him the next chapter, so he lasts for some time, but rebecca? If you dont use her the first level she is near impossible on chapter 12, in fact you'll only use her because at the start you need to collect as much power as possible since you can't ORKO enemies like you will in around chapter 20. And finally Rebecca doesn't  have good enough growths to compensate for her bad bases whilst hector does. 

-Yay Steel bows lets do 15 DMG to the archers at the start of chapter 15/16 but not double!!!!!1!

-Yeah, True, but the problems of Javs and HAx are solved because the units that can use them (except hector at the start for 2 chapters i guess) have good attack, skill and dont get weighed down significantly by them with Sain and kent only by 2 and lowen only by 1, then Rebecca uses a Steel Bow and gets a con penalty of 3 or 4 cant remeber bringing her AS down and doing not much damage, also the Steel bow has shit hit for such a point in the game.

-Stop please.

Alright im going to use rebecca and give you a sense of what an average playrthorugh looks like with her all the way up to chapter 26 where she supossedly shines bevause of steel bows, numbers only tell me so much, we check averages by the number of levels and multiply by the growth percentage but 15% res on a unit is checked individually by level rather than as a colection, this is the main fallacy of averages, we group the stats as colective cause thats what we can do without testing, while the game gives you the chances when you get a level rather than randomly deciding how many level ups of a stat you will get... so.... yeah, pray I dont die from boredom. And no i wont give her my strength ring that goes to somebody useful.

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I will make a new thread of me playing FE7 with rebecca to actually experiment. And no arena abusing, i want to determine her "usefulness"

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5 hours ago, This boi uses Nino said:

-True.


-RNG blessed shown, also all that exp you used for Rebecca to gain such accuracy I used to make Sain kill anything with just an iron sword. 


-Oh I used Louise for that, look Rebecca ain't the best at reliably doubling enemies that others ain't, Sain and Kent do it just as well, or i would use guy, or how about i don't since FE7 enemies are so slow a fast unit like Rebecca would be mildly useful in FE6 because wolt sucks and enemies are more durable but FE7? that game has slow enemies everywhere.

_I hate this point so much, She takes a lot of investment to level up she can never kill anything to get 30 or so EXP because other units (except marcus) might require another one to take them down, so usually rebecca is doing unnecessary damage. Look, i gave her the strenght ring as soon as she joined and nope, still doing like 6 damage only gaining 10 EXP and by the end only one level per chapter with the average gains of!!!!!!111!: Skill, luck, res. oh but maybe next level... HP, SKILL, LUCK, and next one? HP, SPD, RES. Her growths dont really say anything, sure she is more likely to be faster than othewr units but that doesnt mean i will get SPD level ups all the time and themn again, whats the point of doubling if you do 1 damage, oh then give her a steel bow so she doesnt double anymore, this is the exact problem with Lyn.

-Yes, hector is so good because he knows how to fucking attack at close range and gain EXP on enemy phase, over here miss huntress cant fire at close range and is only gaining 10 exp per turn from attacking once, also he is good because his bases make him usable and I can use him on chapter 14 if i didnt use him the next chapter, so he lasts for some time, but rebecca? If you dont use her the first level she is near impossible on chapter 12, in fact you'll only use her because at the start you need to collect as much power as possible since you can't ORKO enemies like you will in around chapter 20. And finally Rebecca doesn't  have good enough growths to compensate for her bad bases whilst hector does. 


-Yay Steel bows lets do 15 DMG to the archers at the start of chapter 15/16 but not double!!!!!1!

-Yeah, True, but the problems of Javs and HAx are solved because the units that can use them (except hector at the start for 2 chapters i guess) have good attack, skill and dont get weighed down significantly by them with Sain and kent only by 2 and lowen only by 1, then Rebecca uses a Steel Bow and gets a con penalty of 3 or 4 cant remeber bringing her AS down and doing not much damage, also the Steel bow has shit hit for such a point in the game.

-Stop please.

Alright im going to use rebecca and give you a sense of what an average playrthorugh looks like with her all the way up to chapter 26 where she supossedly shines bevause of steel bows, numbers only tell me so much, we check averages by the number of levels and multiply by the growth percentage but 15% res on a unit is checked individually by level rather than as a colection, this is the main fallacy of averages, we group the stats as colective cause thats what we can do without testing, while the game gives you the chances when you get a level rather than randomly deciding how many level ups of a stat you will get... so.... yeah, pray I dont die from boredom. And no i wont give her my strength ring that goes to somebody useful.

 

-There was no RNG bless. Her averages fit with what I got many times

- Sain is slower and isn't doubling often, if you are going to use a cavalier, use Kent who is faster. Rebecca is faster than him and as a result doubles more often and causes more damage more often, at least until Sain gets some decent SPD, in the end Sain is slightly better than Rebecca, but Rebecca is the one doing more damage in half of the game.

- Louise is inferior, she has mediocre stats for her level and joins too late, Rebecca is simply stronger and faster, as well having more HP. All Louise is good for is to pass her Silver Bow to Rebecca who is more worthy of it.

-What investment? If you aren't using Rebecca at all, then hope you don't mind the enemies clogging you at the bridges and forcing you to waste turns with your more powerfull units who should be focusing on reaching villages and killing bigger fry. Rebecca helps units like Lowen and the others to soften enemies so they can kill them whitout suffering counter attacks, as well open a path for your best units like Hector to move foward and focus on more dangerous enemies like Nomads. Not to mention that Rebecca is ideal for finishing off Pegasus Knights, since Hector usually can't one shot them during his early levels unless he gets STR blessed. Her growths are great though and her bases are average, so that's good.

- If that's all he could do, then he wouldn't be better than her, his real strength lies in his amazing ability to tank most attacks due to good DEF and passable RES on top of having the best HP growth, he can move pretty much everywhere whitout fearing being killed, at least until the later chapters where he's still the best tank.  I don't need to attack at close range with Rebecca though, she's not meant to take attacks at 1 range just like many other good units with mediocre defenses, her priority should be to help clean house during player phase and bait enemy ranged units, specially fliers to her. Not to mention that longbows are very usefull for plenty of chapters as well, and Rebecca is the best user for it.

-Rebecca can double with those though, 60% SPD growth after all. So that would be 30 damage in a round, that's pretty good.

- Sain doesn't have good SKL. Kent and Raven are the only units with good SKL who can double and they are part of the best units in the game, so them surpassing Rebecca is to be expected. Anyone else is either Harken or another unit who joins late.

- I will stop when you stop saying she's anything but good. Because as long as you keep saying so, I will have to correct you.

Edited by DiogoJorge

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5 hours ago, This boi uses Nino said:

I will make a new thread of me playing FE7 with rebecca to actually experiment. And no arena abusing, i want to determine her "usefulness"

Good for you. At least you are willing to test it. Not that I expect much with this mentality that the community has nowdays  of rushing at all costs whitout a concern for effectiveness.

Edited by DiogoJorge

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1 hour ago, DiogoJorge said:

-Rebecca can double with those though, 60% SPD growth after all. So that would be 30 damage in a round, that's pretty good.

Bullshit. Those archers have 6 AS, so Rebecca needs 14 speed to double them (Steel Bow slows her down by 4). She reaches that benchmark around level 14-15 on average, which isn't reasonable for any unit at that point.

1 hour ago, DiogoJorge said:

-What investment? If you aren't using Rebecca at all, then hope you don't mind the enemies clogging you at the bridges and forcing you to waste turns with your more powerfull units who should be focusing on reaching villages and killing bigger fry. Rebecca helps units like Lowen and the others to soften enemies so they can kill them whitout suffering counter attacks, as well open a path for your best units like Hector to move foward and focus on more dangerous enemies like Nomads. Not to mention that Rebecca is ideal for finishing off Pegasus Knights, since Hector usually can't one shot them during his early levels unless he gets STR blessed. Her growths are great though and her bases are average, so that's good.

So how is it, then? Is Rebecca chipping for other units, netting her like 10 XP per turn, or is she taking kills which will require the melee unit to take a counter?

Also, literally every unit can finish off weakened pegasus knights. At base levels, Dorcas deals the same damage as Rebecca, Bartre deals +2 damage at identical accuracy, Oswin deals even more damage (20 Atk with an iron lance vs. Rebecca's 16 with an iron bow), Lowen only deals 2 less damage than Rebecca. Enemy pegasi are an absolute joke

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2 hours ago, ping said:

Bullshit. Those archers have 6 AS, so Rebecca needs 14 speed to double them (Steel Bow slows her down by 4). She reaches that benchmark around level 14-15 on average, which isn't reasonable for any unit at that point.

So how is it, then? Is Rebecca chipping for other units, netting her like 10 XP per turn, or is she taking kills which will require the melee unit to take a counter?

Also, literally every unit can finish off weakened pegasus knights. At base levels, Dorcas deals the same damage as Rebecca, Bartre deals +2 damage at identical accuracy, Oswin deals even more damage (20 Atk with an iron lance vs. Rebecca's 16 with an iron bow), Lowen only deals 2 less damage than Rebecca. Enemy pegasi are an absolute joke

By the time Steel Bows become common she should be close to that level. At chapter 17 she's lv 10, so that's only 4 levels to go.

She kills enemies however, Pegasus and the like, as well other enemies that Hector and Kent can't bother to waste turns on. She never lets a meele unit take a counter, unless the melee unit takes negligible damage, she is either softening an enemy or finishing an enemy so that the other unit may focus on another one.

My point exactly, if literally every unit can finish off weakened pegasus, why not use Rebecca to finish them off so that your units can attack other enemies? Dorcas has mediocre growths, he shouldn't be killing Pegasus unless Rebecca or Hector aren't anywhere close to him, Barte is usually not that great, better than Dorcas but not good enough, so the less kills he gets the better as well.

It doesn't matter if they are a "joke" or not, they must be killed and they provide with the perfect opportunities for Rebecca to gain levels. Specially since you can bait the javelin wielding ones with her.

 

 

Edited by DiogoJorge

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1 hour ago, DiogoJorge said:

By the time Steel Bows become common she should be close to that level. At chapter 17 she's lv 10, so that's only 4 levels to go.

She kills enemies however, Pegasus and the like, as well other enemies that Hector and Kent can't bother to waste turns on. She never lets a meele unit take a counter, unless the melee unit takes negligible damage, she is either softening an enemy or finishing an enemy so that the other unit may focus on another one.

My point exactly, if literally every unit can finish off weakened pegasus, why not use Rebecca to finish them off so that your units can attack other enemies? Dorcas has mediocre growths, he shouldn't be killing Pegasus unless Rebecca or Hector aren't anywhere close to him, Barte is usually not that great, better than Dorcas but not good enough, so the less kills he gets the better as well.

It doesn't matter if they are a "joke" or not, they must be killed and they provide with the perfect opportunities for Rebecca to gain levels. Specially since you can bait the javelin wielding ones with her.

 

 

I do agree that the community always cares too much about LTC hoever i dont ltc and always finish at like turn 6-8 in Chapter 11, with rebecca it took me 13 turns. Ill be honest i dont care much about rankings but if i were interested in rankings i would not use her since getting her to a usable point would slow me down. this is the link: 

 
Louise might be mediocre for her level and join time, but she comes with a silver bow and enought speed to double with it. And wit A rank, sure rebecca would have gotten that but why use her when at the start she would only be a nuisance.

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29 minutes ago, DiogoJorge said:

By the time Steel Bows become common she should be close to that level. At chapter 17 she's lv 10, so that's only 4 levels to go.

So...

9 hours ago, This boi uses Nino said:

-Yay Steel bows lets do 15 DMG to the archers at the start of chapter 15/16 but not double!!!!!1!

In chapter 17, Rebecca is merely four levels away from doubling the archers from 1-2 chapters prior? :D There's something almost poetic about that.

34 minutes ago, DiogoJorge said:

My point exactly, if literally every unit can finish off weakened pegasus, why not use Rebecca to finish them off so that your units can attack other enemies? Dorcas has mediocre growths, he shouldn't be killing Pegasus unless Rebecca or Hector aren't anywhere close to him, Barte is usually not that great, better than Dorcas but not good enough, so the less kills he gets the better as well.

It doesn't matter if they are a "joke" or not, they must be killed and they provide with the perfect opportunities for Rebecca to gain levels. Specially since you can bait the javelin wielding ones with her.

You're making a point that Rebecca is usable, which nobody in this thread is arguing against, and nothing beyond that. Thing is, every unit in FE7 is usable, every single one. But the question remains - what is the payoff? What does one gain from feeding Rebecca kills instead of literally any other unit? And the answer is "very little". I don't want to list it all again, but a trained Rebecca is a unit with mediocre stats and a horrible weaponlock. Ballistae are nice, but it's really not worth it to train a otherwise bad unit just for the five shots that you take - especially when half of those can also be taken by Louise who is almost as good as a trained Rebecca on her own without any investment and makes the 2nd best unit in the game even better. And anyway, none of the ballista shots are essential to beating the respective chapter, they're just... nice. A bit of chip damage that will probably not even one-shot the target.

Meanwhile, Dorcas and Bartre (and I keep bringing them up because they're pretty bad units, as well) can at least do some stuff like countering a bunch of enemies with a hand axe for some decent chip damage. So basically, do to multiple enemies what Rebecca can do to one enemy on player phase. Even if they miss once or twice, that's still more than Rebecca did on PP.

There is just very, very little that Rebecca can do that others can't. Accurate chip damage can be replicated by magic units, effective damage against flyers hardly matters because x2 multiplier, ballistae aren't common enough to justify training a unit just for those... And meanwhile, all those units that replicate her abilities are better than her in other areas - mages, while squishy, can engage multiple enemies on EP way more easily than Rebecca (even moreso because they can more freely use defensive terrain, not to mention that Pent in particular isn't that squishy with that Louise support backing him up).

And on the other side, Rebecca lacks one big skill - enemy phase. She will never be able to wield 1-2 ranged weapons, which will always mean that she can only counter one, maybe two enemies on EP. FE7 is one of the more EP-heavy games since relative enemy strength is pretty low compared to other games (dunno if you've played FE6 or the higher difficulties of the DS remakes, but uncounterable chip damage is much more important in those, especially the DS games). In particular, enemy stat progression isn't all that steep - so if there's any point in the game, where that accurate 2-range comes in handy, it's the earlygame in order to avoid counterattacks, or just secure a player phase kill on an otherwise threatening enemy. What you are suggesting is to hamper Rebecca's early-game value (she's deployed anyway, so might as well make use of her chipping) so that she's better at doing the same thing at a point where the same thing isn't as valuable anymore.

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19 hours ago, This boi uses Nino said:

I do agree that the community always cares too much about LTC hoever i dont ltc and always finish at like turn 6-8 in Chapter 11, with rebecca it took me 13 turns. Ill be honest i dont care much about rankings but if i were interested in rankings i would not use her since getting her to a usable point would slow me down. this is the link: 

 
Louise might be mediocre for her level and join time, but she comes with a silver bow and enought speed to double with it. And wit A rank, sure rebecca would have gotten that but why use her when at the start she would only be a nuisance.

How the heck did you take 13 turns in chapter 11 in Eliwood mode? Rebecca doesn't slow me down at all. Unless you tried to solo it or something.

Guess I will just show you how I do it and you will learn how to use her propely. 

 

This is how you do it.

Edited by DiogoJorge

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5 hours ago, DiogoJorge said:

How the heck did you take 13 turns in chapter 11 in Eliwood mode? Rebecca doesn't slow me down at all. Unless you tried to solo it or something.

Guess I will just show you how I do it and you will learn how to use her propely. 

 

This is how you do it.

I'm pretty sure they got a couple of unlucky misses 

of course the proper way to use her is to bench her but use whoever you want.

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8 hours ago, DiogoJorge said:

How the heck did you take 13 turns in chapter 11 in Eliwood mode? Rebecca doesn't slow me down at all. Unless you tried to solo it or something.

Guess I will just show you how I do it and you will learn how to use her propely. 

 

This is how you do it.

What I did was use Lowen to weaken enemies just enough that Rebecca could kill them, that's how I managed to get 2 levels in a chapter with few enemies.  EDIT: I gave lowen the strength ring and Rebecca... well... I got RNG-blessed with strength (But am currently being Speed screwed). Also, I've never thought of giving the steel sword to Eliwood. And, if I had played this map without rebecca, most units would have gotten 2 levels or 1.60 levels but with Rebecca you could only give a few only one level.  Also, Since most units take 2 or 3 hits to kill one of these enemies except Marcus, this means they can get 10 EXP + 10 EXP + 30 EXP so the one level Rebecca got doesn't translate exactly into EXP for others. I will admit, you are profficient with Rebecca, most likely because you have some experience with her.

Edited by This boi uses Nino

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16 hours ago, This boi uses Nino said:

What I did was use Lowen to weaken enemies just enough that Rebecca could kill them, that's how I managed to get 2 levels in a chapter with few enemies.  EDIT: I gave lowen the strength ring and Rebecca... well... I got RNG-blessed with strength (But am currently being Speed screwed). Also, I've never thought of giving the steel sword to Eliwood. And, if I had played this map without rebecca, most units would have gotten 2 levels or 1.60 levels but with Rebecca you could only give a few only one level.  Also, Since most units take 2 or 3 hits to kill one of these enemies except Marcus, this means they can get 10 EXP + 10 EXP + 30 EXP so the one level Rebecca got doesn't translate exactly into EXP for others. I will admit, you are profficient with Rebecca, most likely because you have some experience with her.

She doesn't need that many levels at once to begin with. If she's leveling 1 level per chapter, then she's progressing just fine.

Giving the Steel Sword to Eliwood is pretty much natural to me, since I want to have Marcus get as little kills as possible, so that means he doesn't need that sword, in fact, he should be given Lowen's iron sword to prevent him from killing bosses in a single round.

I know, I've been playing Blazing Sword for almost 2 decades now, so I know how to use most units propely.

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On 6/14/2018 at 5:31 AM, DiogoJorge said:

-Tell that to Hector and his 60% hit rate with handaxes for much of the early game.

- 80% is good and all, but Rebecca's usual 90%-100% is preferable, also, still higher MT. Specially since there's plenty of terrain for enemies to hide in, and Rebecca's virtually flawless accuracy ensures they are either killed or drastically softened for others to kill.

- Chapter 24 Linus, since she can kill the Bolting Sage and get you a full 5/5 uses Bolting if you can kill him before he attacks, chapter 25 has balista users which block your fliers from attempting to take the northern strongholds, by removing them, it becomes much more simple to take those. That by itself already makes it worth it. Louise is inferior, Rebecca has better stats and growths than she has, Louise has less potential stats, not worth using. This is whitout mentioning the Longbow which is a great tool for striking enemies on the other side of the wall like in Ostia's defense chapter, and Lyn wants to be on the frontlines rather than use bows all the time, so that leaves Rebecca for doing that duty.

- Except that it doesn't require any more investment than any other unit, since all her kills and damage dealing are justified. The same could be said about most other units, there's not a single one that can reliably and consistently ORKO everything, even Marcus cannot double everyone, since some enemies have enough SPD to not be doubled by him, let alone everyone from the early party. By the time they can ORKO everything consistently, so can Rebecca. Geitz and Rath both join way late, Geitz also cannot use A rank bows like Rebecca does at that point, she's also faster than him.

- I already looked at them dozens of times by now and know that her stats are good. I don't need to use her, but the same can be said about using those prepromotes and virtually everyone else that isn't forced deployment. If Hawkeye is a monster, then Hector is a god, since he's usually faster and more durable than Hawkeye is. I too thought that Hawkeye was great when I first played the game, until I realized that Hector blows him and stopped using the crappy axe users like Dorcas and Barte.

- Steel Bows become a thing soon enough, so I don't understand how is that 2/3 game finished.

- Javelins and Handaxes aren't stronger, their MT is low and have lesser accuracy, the fact that an handaxe only has 1 point more of MT than a Iron Bow is pretty much all you need to know that bows are better in the physical ranged department, since almost every other bow will surpass it. Tomahawks and Spears are too rare to ever see much use for most of the game.

- I will defend her, because people are wrong about her as a unit, as long as it keeps being so, I will keep at it. I'm not trying to pick a fight, I'm just explaining why she is a good unit, also she's not my waifu, I defend any character that is good whetever they are male or female.

 

 

 

 

Again, it's a double RNG engine which places the 60% hit closer to mid 70s. Furthermore, Hector is a forced deployment and doesn't eat a slot. Rebecca can't claim that fortune.

It almost seems like you're trying to fucking claim Rebecca contributes soooo much on the grounds of "Marcus/Hector/etc. might hit 60-70 hit"

thing is

it's fe7.

Rebecca's not a good unit. She's usable with resources, but she's not really neccesary due to the amount of resources and favoritism needed to get her to adequate combat. Tack on the fact that by the time she gets decent-ish, you're done with the dread isle. Guess who comes back really soon after the completion of the dread isle chapters? Hint: He has a horse and bows.

Archers are cute to have, but they take an immense amount of resources to train up for a pittance of a unit. Even if we discounted Dorcas/Bartre, there's still the fact that the orion bolt is worth plenty of cash that can be used for stuff like barriers or Pure Water. (Two things that make raising staff ranks easier and makes HHM a lot less frustrating.)

Multiple people have posted stuff about LTC, which can be used as a metric for a units value in the game. Even if we were to veer off pure LTC as the sole comparison to a measure of worth, there's still the fact that she's got worse bases than fucking Eliwood, has no EP, and won't have the AS to use steel bows when they're relevant. 

-Geitz has the stats and con to use any bow bar the silver bow/reinfleiche at base. Coupled with his 14 base speed, he's doubling everything bar Swordmasters/Sword Heroes.

-Louise is usable out of the box with A rank bows and an A rank support 

-Bartre/Dorcas contribute to early chapters, and get decent use of bows. Once they hit D bows, which isn't too difficult, they'll easily be able to get around to C rank for killer bows in the midgame.

-Rath has a horse with an immense amount of aid and if you train him up properly, he can have a B rank in bows from LHM. Oh yeah and he has an actual strength growth.

-fucking Wil can hit around level 7-8 if you're intent on using him straight out of LHM. 

 

Come to the SF discord and talk about units. The community isn't really LTC focused these days, and people will usually be willing to engage in a discussion about characters uses in their own games.

On 6/15/2018 at 10:30 AM, ping said:

You're making a point that Rebecca is usable, which nobody in this thread is arguing against, and nothing beyond that. Thing is, every unit in FE7 is usable, every single one. But the question remains - what is the payoff?

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The payoff is pretty simple, Rebecca is a good ranged unit since she has good STR, SKL, RES and SPD growths.

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41 minutes ago, DiogoJorge said:

The payoff is pretty simple, Rebecca is a good ranged unit since she has good STR, SKL, RES and SPD growths.

I think you've pretty much just made people loose any interest in discussing this further.

You need good bases to make use of growths. If the bases aren't there, then you'd better have access to decent EP. If you don't even fucking have that, then at the very least you should have 1-2 range and get to be parked on a forest/mountain. (Nino raising 101)

Rebecca has none of this going for her.

She fucking takes forever to kill anything, outright fails to OHKO peg knights in earlygame HHM, and gets outdamaged by even fucking Matthew and Eliwood.

 

 

On average, units with access to Melee Range combat can be expected to get around 1-3 levels per chapter. Eliwood beats rebecca in every stat at base bar 1 res. Bartre has hand axes and can easily 2HKO soldiers/peg knights and 2-3RKO lance cavs/knights until he hits 4 AS for the ORKO on soldiers/knights.

Rebecca might get lucky to get about a level per chapter if we're not slowing down to feed her kills. 

 


You should look up past reflections on unit performance according to a preferred metric if you're not going to look at average stats of the unit vs HHM/HNM/etc. enemies average stats.

Spoiler



 

 

 

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