How is using only 3 units in Lyn's Story "optimal"?

[DiogoJorge]

6 hours ago, Czarpy said:

this doesn't mean jack shit if you can't back up anything with conclusive proof via stat averages, definition of the metric of comparison, or even the value of focusing on her as opposed to other units of the same jointime/ability (ranged combat).

As the previous post said, dondond151 has had a metric shitload of guides and methodically outlined 0% growths runs as well as LTC runs. He's pretty much the most well-known expert on the game that's around in the FE community. (except for finangling with the rom stuff at a high level)

 

SF has years of people running LTC runs in many combinations, draft runs, efficiency, ranked, 0% growths, etc. If rebecca is consistantly placed as a bad unit in all of these parameters, then she's pretty much conclusively bad.

 

this isn't about being a stickler for LTC (I'm not an LTC player and haven't done a draft in like 5-6 years)or anything like that. Rather, in the face of the hardest difficulty in the game, she doesn't contribute anything worthwhile for the trouble investing in her.

What about her stat averages? 

22.4

7.6

9.5

11.4

8.5

4.35

3.7

HP, STR, SKL, SPD, LUK, DEF, RES

This is good for lv 10. Don't see what's the issue. Most units with ranged combat cannot double as often as she does, so that alone makes her worth using.

And? how does that change anything? 0% growth runs only exist, because otherwise it would be very difficult to justify using Marcus to the end as well quite a few other characters, if they were really that great, there would be no need for 0% growth runs. LTC runs are usually very poor measures for a unit's value, since it sacrifices a lot of effectiveness for the sake of a turn number. That's like claiming using Dan Hibiki is good because it takes more effort to master. I have no doubts they are good players if they handicap themselves that much and pull it off, but handicapping yourself isn't the most effective way to play the game.

LTCs should never be taken as a measurement of a unit's worth. Effectiveness is more important than efficiency, since it requires less effort and provides with a more sure fire approach to the game. If you are going to be eficient, you must do so reasonably, rather than rush it like a maniac.

She does contribute however, more than whatever pittance I invested on her. She's one of the better ranged attackers, has some dodgetanking ability (and doesn't suffer from WTD), has some RES, so she makes good bait for mages, is usually superior to pretty much any other potential archer, except Lyn, can erase pretty much any flier once she gains leveling momentum and is one of the earlier characters to double, easily worth deploying.

Edited June 18, 2018 by DiogoJorge

[Just call me AL]

3 hours ago, DiogoJorge said:

What about her stat averages? 

22.4

7.6

9.5

11.4

8.5

4.35

3.7

HP, STR, SKL, SPD, LUK, DEF, RES

This is good for lv 10. Don't see what's the issue. Most units with ranged combat cannot double as often as she does, so that alone makes her worth using.

What chapter is she getting these averages in? That's a question that you are never bothering to answer. Answer this question, and we'll see if it's a reasonable level for that specific chapter. Like, if those were her stats during when Rath joins, then, obviously, it would be safe to conclude that she should be dropped in favor of him.

Quote

And? how does that change anything? 0% growth runs only exist, because otherwise it would be very difficult to justify using Marcus to the end as well quite a few other characters, if they were really that great, there would be no need for 0% growth runs. LTC runs are usually very poor measures for a unit's value, since it sacrifices a lot of effectiveness for the sake of a turn number. 

LTCs should never be taken as a measurement of a unit's worth. Effectiveness is more important than efficiency, since it requires less effort and provides with a more sure fire approach to the game. If you are going to be eficient, you must do so reasonably, rather than rush it like a maniac.

Except no one that does an LTC run "rushes through chapters" carelessly. They've studied enemy patterns and enemy stats for such a long time, that they've developed strategies to effectively get through chapters without casualties, and even in an amount of time significantly smaller than the maximum amount of turns the game allows for a 5 star Tactics ranking. That's impressive if you think about it.

And arguing how effective a strategy is without arguing how quick or efficient it is not only doesn't work, but it's also contradictory. You just simply cannot consider one without considering the other. Attempting to do so would be like concluding that a 20 mpg (or kmpg, if you want to get metric) vehicle is effective at conserving gasoline because of how fast it can go, with no consideration given to how much gasoline is being used. (Might not be the best example, but I'm trying to get across a point that isn't responded to with putting fingers in one's ears. I.E., what you've been doing ever since this whole Rebecca debate started.)

Also, do you even realize just how ridiculous that saying "there'd be no need for 0% growths runs if guys like Marcus were truly great" sounds?

Edited June 18, 2018 by Just call me AL

[ping]

3 hours ago, DiogoJorge said:

What about her stat averages? 

22.4

7.6

9.5

11.4

8.5

4.35

3.7

HP, STR, SKL, SPD, LUK, DEF, RES

This is good for lv 10. Don't see what's the issue. Most units with ranged combat cannot double as often as she does, so that alone makes her worth using.

"good"

(I've picked units that are "speed-focused" in their stats and join relatively early in the game)
(Guy and Raven's HM stats are probably a bit inaccurate because I only used whole numbers for their base stats)

Otherwise, I'm out of the discussion :) I've made all my arguments at least twice and don't see the point in making them thrice.

[DiogoJorge]

25 minutes ago, ping said:

"good"

(I've picked units that are "speed-focused" in their stats and join relatively early in the game)
(Guy and Raven's HM stats are probably a bit inaccurate because I only used whole numbers for their base stats)

Otherwise, I'm out of the discussion :) I've made all my arguments at least twice and don't see the point in making them thrice.

I don't see any problem, all those units are good, so it goes whitout saying that Rebecca would be somewhere close to them and inferior to some of those. 

Edited June 18, 2018 by DiogoJorge

[ping]

5 minutes ago, DiogoJorge said:

inferior to some of those. 

*all of those

[MacLovin]

3 hours ago, DiogoJorge said:

What about her stat averages? 

22.4

7.6

9.5

11.4

8.5

4.35

3.7

HP, STR, SKL, SPD, LUK, DEF, RES

This is good for lv 10. Don't see what's the issue. Most units with ranged combat cannot double as often as she does, so that alone makes her worth using.

And? how does that change anything? 0% growth runs only exist, because otherwise it would be very difficult to justify using Marcus to the end as well quite a few other characters, if they were really that great, there would be no need for 0% growth runs. LTC runs are usually very poor measures for a unit's value, since it sacrifices a lot of effectiveness for the sake of a turn number. That's like claiming using Dan Hibiki is good because it takes more effort to master. I have no doubts they are good players if they handicap themselves that much and pull it off, but handicapping yourself isn't the most effective way to play the game.

LTCs should never be taken as a measurement of a unit's worth. Effectiveness is more important than efficiency, since it requires less effort and provides with a more sure fire approach to the game. If you are going to be eficient, you must do so reasonably, rather than rush it like a maniac.

She does contribute however, more than whatever pittance I invested on her. She's one of the better ranged attackers, has some dodgetanking ability (and doesn't suffer from WTD), has some RES, so she makes good bait for mages, is usually superior to pretty much any other potential archer, except Lyn, can erase pretty much any flier once she gains leveling momentum and is one of the earlier characters to double, easily worth deploying.

What chapter are we talking about here?

Ok at this point everyone's pretty much beaten you over the head with actual constructed points and proper arguments while you refuse to actually construct a proper argument and resort to shit like

7 hours ago, Czarpy said:

  On 6/17/2018 at 5:21 AM, DiogoJorge said:

I know, I've been playing Blazing Sword for almost 2 decades now, so I know how to use most units propely.

 

Go take an actual fucking look at literally any of the resources I linked. If you can't fucking do anything but make vague and generalized claims about the game while repeatedly talking about how good you are at it, nobody's going to take you seriously. dondon's guides and runs are handy since they pretty much outline a units value in a vacuum. Marcus is usable at base stats all the way to endgame. Rebecca is not, and takes some serious babying to become competent. She's not the worst, but there's not much that she actually contributes outside of earlygame chip and ranked run exp rank stuff.

At this point, I'm fucking done here. It's just not worth talking about anything if the discussion goes absolutely nowhere into LaLaland. There's a limit as to how much people can beat a dead horse, but you've been shown repeatedly resources, links, averages, and metrics on a unit and its contribution in regards to the resources needed. 

There's a reason "Personal Experience Means Nothing" has been a relevant mantra in discussions here. You don't just fucking walk into a discussion and completely base everything on personal experiences and vaguely defined metrics while refusing to actually do anything worthwhile in progressing the argument, refutation of opposing points, and utilization of community resources. 

[DiogoJorge]

On 6/18/2018 at 6:50 AM, Just call me AL said:

What chapter is she getting these averages in? That's a question that you are never bothering to answer. Answer this question, and we'll see if it's a reasonable level for that specific chapter. Like, if those were her stats during when Rath joins, then, obviously, it would be safe to conclude that she should be dropped in favor of him.

Except no one that does an LTC run "rushes through chapters" carelessly. They've studied enemy patterns and enemy stats for such a long time, that they've developed strategies to effectively get through chapters without casualties, and even in an amount of time significantly smaller than the maximum amount of turns the game allows for a 5 star Tactics ranking. That's impressive if you think about it.

And arguing how effective a strategy is without arguing how quick or efficient it is not only doesn't work, but it's also contradictory. You just simply cannot consider one without considering the other. Attempting to do so would be like concluding that a 20 mpg (or kmpg, if you want to get metric) vehicle is effective at conserving gasoline because of how fast it can go, with no consideration given to how much gasoline is being used. (Might not be the best example, but I'm trying to get across a point that isn't responded to with putting fingers in one's ears. I.E., what you've been doing ever since this whole Rebecca debate started.)

Also, do you even realize just how ridiculous that saying "there'd be no need for 0% growths runs if guys like Marcus were truly great" sounds?

I think I already stated before that it was at chapter 17, don't see why must I keep repeating myself. She's level 10 then. It is a reasonable level, unless you don't propely use her. Considering that Rath joins 5 chapters later, by that time Rebecca is already lv 15, don't forget that sidechapters exist.

If it takes that few turns and giving most experience to a inferior unit like Marcus, then yes, it is careless, since Marcus is more likely to be screwed with his growths than any other more valuable Cavalier. Would you rather have 1 good unit that falls off in the half game, or a group of average units that grow into good units in short time? The answer is obvious.

Yes, it's impressive that despite all those handicaps, they still managed to do so. Still not very effective play, if you feel like handicapping yourself, that's fine, but it's not the best way to play from a effectiveness point, which is more important.

There's nothing contradictory, the best strategy is the one that ensures effectiveness, less effort and reasonable efficiency. Using units like Marcus takes more effort in the long run due to not being able to keep up with the real Paladins like Kent or Sain.

There's nothing ridiculous about it, think about it, why would you even need to enforce 0% growths? Because units that grow would eventually surpass Marcus, thus making him virtually obsolette. The same point applies here, would you rather have one good unit that falls off? Or a group of average units that grow into good units and keep that way?

 

 

On 6/18/2018 at 7:34 AM, ping said:

*all of those

Erk says otherwise, he's not reaching lv 10 as soon as Rebecca does, not by a longshot. Same for Florina. They are usually lv 3-5 by the time they rejoin.

 

On 6/18/2018 at 7:35 AM, Czarpy said:

What chapter are we talking about here?

Ok at this point everyone's pretty much beaten you over the head with actual constructed points and proper arguments while you refuse to actually construct a proper argument and resort to shit like

 

Go take an actual fucking look at literally any of the resources I linked. If you can't fucking do anything but make vague and generalized claims about the game while repeatedly talking about how good you are at it, nobody's going to take you seriously. dondon's guides and runs are handy since they pretty much outline a units value in a vacuum. Marcus is usable at base stats all the way to endgame. Rebecca is not, and takes some serious babying to become competent. She's not the worst, but there's not much that she actually contributes outside of earlygame chip and ranked run exp rank stuff.

At this point, I'm fucking done here. It's just not worth talking about anything if the discussion goes absolutely nowhere into LaLaland. There's a limit as to how much people can beat a dead horse, but you've been shown repeatedly resources, links, averages, and metrics on a unit and its contribution in regards to the resources needed. 

There's a reason "Personal Experience Means Nothing" has been a relevant mantra in discussions here. You don't just fucking walk into a discussion and completely base everything on personal experiences and vaguely defined metrics while refusing to actually do anything worthwhile in progressing the argument, refutation of opposing points, and utilization of community resources. 

I already said it before. Chapter 17.

I already took a look at it many times over, stop pretending that I didn't. Those constructed points haven't given me any reason to reconsider my stance on Rebecca, since by averages, she has good stats and growths, not to mention having early availability.

I'm good at it, that's a fact, and I don't care if they take me seriously or not, you either believe or don't, I stated the truth, whatever one believes it or not it's up to them.

If he really did value units in a vacuum, then he would realize that Rebecca is good, since she has good stats, is one of the better physical ranged units and can double earlier than a good deal of units.

You said it correctly, "usable", Marcus is usable, not good in the long-run. Anyone is usable in Blazing Sword, even Karla.

Considering that I'm not using just personal experience on this, PEMN is the last thing you should bother mentioning, since I've already show you her averages at lv 10, if that's not enough for you, then that's your problem, not mine.

Also, keep hostility to a minimum, I'm only stating what I must state, I don't remember insulting you, so please keep words like the f word out of equation.

Since this isn't going anywhere, just agree to disagree and let's get this done with.

[Paper Jam]

Using Eliwood and Lowen to wound and Rebecca to kill is the strategy I use, and while she doesn't get to such high levels in my experience as in DiogoJorge's, I find it easier to use her than not to use her in the chapters in which her deployment is forced.

The alternative, of course, is to let Eliwood, Lowen, Hector, Bartre, or Dorcas get those kills instead. Those are the only other characters available at the time who get reasonable amounts of experience for the kills. And if they level up too much faster than the enemies, that amount of experience doesn't stay reasonable.

Edited June 18, 2018 by Paper Jam

[DiogoJorge]

4 minutes ago, Paper Jam said:

Using Eliwood and Lowen to wound and Rebecca to kill is the strategy I use, and while she doesn't get to such high levels in my experience as in DiogoJorge's, I find it easier to use her than not to use her in the chapters in which her deployment is forced.

The alternative, of course, is to let Eliwood, Lowen, Hector, Bartre, or Dorcas get those kills instead. Those are the only other characters available at the time who get reasonable amounts of experience for the kills. And if they level up too much faster than the enemies, that amount of experience doesn't stay reasonable.

Exactly, this person gets it. Athough it's usually Rebecca softening, since Eliwood needs to level up more in order to skip Loyd's fog chapter. If both Eliwood and Lowen's levels are too high somehow, then one is free to give kills to Rebecca.

 

[ping]

48 minutes ago, DiogoJorge said:

Erk says otherwise, he's not reaching lv 10 as soon as Rebecca does, not by a longshot. Same for Florina. They are usually lv 3-5 by the time they rejoin.

It's almost funny how inconcistent you are with your numbers
Erk rejoins in chapter 14, so if Rebecca gains about one level per chapter, she's level 3, at most 4, at that point, i.e. at a lower level than Erk if he's gotten a little love during Lyn mode. If you didn't do Lyn mode, base Erk is still better than the slightly-trained Rebecca because he has 1-2 range that targets Res.

[MacLovin]

9 minutes ago, ping said:

It's almost funny how inconcistent you are with your numbers
Erk rejoins in chapter 14, so if Rebecca gains about one level per chapter, she's level 3, at most 4, at that point, i.e. at a lower level than Erk if he's gotten a little love during Lyn mode. If you didn't do Lyn mode, base Erk is still better than the slightly-trained Rebecca because he has 1-2 range that targets Res.

don't forget that Erk's totally a dodgetank as well! 

 

Let's not forget that Erk's likely the best non-mount candidate for the lyn mode energy ring/robe. (I mean Lucius is there, but his magic growth is high and he doesn't need the robe all that much since he's not going to even be in the midst of a mob unless it's like CoD on a mountain tile)

-Kent/Sain/Florina all appreciate the robe/ring (well sain doesn't need the ring, but still.)

-Dorcas/Rath have little need of it.

-Lyn can use it, and it's likely recommended that she take it if we're aiming to get Geitz.

-Matthew could use it, but why? It's kind of a waste on him and is a thorough waste on Wil. Serra doesn't really have need of them either, unless we're planning on getting her to promotion asap in the middle of the dread isle to work up that light weapon rank. (Not really something to go for unless you want her magic to be safe for warp strats and don't want to rely on getting Canas/Erk/Lucius to A staves.)

 

Generally, let's say Erk returns at level 8 with 

8

21.55

7.8

8.8

10.5

5.1

3.4

6.8

 

Now add on the robe and ring for

8

28.55

9.8

8.8

10.5

5.1

3.4

6.8

 

Now, we could try putting him on the nearby forest tile to let him have around 40-ish avoid, In lower difficulties, he's got a good shot to survive the gangbang. In HHM, we can just have him snipe the knight and move on to the east to join the rest of the party in the middle of the map.

Now what does Erk offer that Rebecca doesn't? 1-2 range combat that hits res. Staves and the possibility of hitting higher ranks (it's not that difficult), and he's got anima tomes. You know, accurate 1-2 range that hits earlygame enemies and 2-3HKOs most of them. 

Even if we were to round his level down to 6 or 7, he's still doing more damage than Rebecca, and has more contributions throughout the game if we were to field him.

[DiogoJorge]

On 6/18/2018 at 8:38 AM, ping said:

It's almost funny how inconcistent you are with your numbers
Erk rejoins in chapter 14, so if Rebecca gains about one level per chapter, she's level 3, at most 4, at that point, i.e. at a lower level than Erk if he's gotten a little love during Lyn mode. If you didn't do Lyn mode, base Erk is still better than the slightly-trained Rebecca because he has 1-2 range that targets Res.

How is it inconsitent? That's usually what happens.

Considering the Pegasus Knights on chapter 12-13 and the bridge chokepoint on chapter 13x, she actually gains more in those, so it's perfectly consistent. Rebecca is usually higher level than Erk by the time he joins.

Just watch if you don't believe me. 

 

This is a chapter list, just check chapter 14 and see for yourself. It's simple enough considering that she has 3 chapters worth of experience before then.

 

On 6/18/2018 at 9:03 AM, Czarpy said:

don't forget that Erk's totally a dodgetank as well! 

 

Let's not forget that Erk's likely the best non-mount candidate for the lyn mode energy ring/robe. (I mean Lucius is there, but his magic growth is high and he doesn't need the robe all that much since he's not going to even be in the midst of a mob unless it's like CoD on a mountain tile)

-Kent/Sain/Florina all appreciate the robe/ring (well sain doesn't need the ring, but still.)

-Dorcas/Rath have little need of it.

-Lyn can use it, and it's likely recommended that she take it if we're aiming to get Geitz.

-Matthew could use it, but why? It's kind of a waste on him and is a thorough waste on Wil. Serra doesn't really have need of them either, unless we're planning on getting her to promotion asap in the middle of the dread isle to work up that light weapon rank. (Not really something to go for unless you want her magic to be safe for warp strats and don't want to rely on getting Canas/Erk/Lucius to A staves.)

 

Generally, let's say Erk returns at level 8 with 

8

21.55

7.8

8.8

10.5

5.1

3.4

6.8

 

Now add on the robe and ring for

8

28.55

9.8

8.8

10.5

5.1

3.4

6.8

 

Now, we could try putting him on the nearby forest tile to let him have around 40-ish avoid, In lower difficulties, he's got a good shot to survive the gangbang. In HHM, we can just have him snipe the knight and move on to the east to join the rest of the party in the middle of the map.

Now what does Erk offer that Rebecca doesn't? 1-2 range combat that hits res. Staves and the possibility of hitting higher ranks (it's not that difficult), and he's got anima tomes. You know, accurate 1-2 range that hits earlygame enemies and 2-3HKOs most of them. 

Even if we were to round his level down to 6 or 7, he's still doing more damage than Rebecca, and has more contributions throughout the game if we were to field him.

Erk can't cause physical damage and his tomes weight more, Rebecca is also faster and uses lighter weapons. Erk is Rebecca's equal, not better. And before you say 1-2 range, reminder that he's frail and he should rarely if ever be at 1 range.

His contributions are about the same as Rebecca's, since he does pretty much the same thing as she does for the most part, and unlike her, he can't use Balistas nor use Longbows or the Brave Bow. If he didn't have acess to staves, he would be inferior to Rebecca.

Also, Lyn is the one who deserves the Seraph robe more. Matthew or Florina are the ones who should get the energy ring. If we go by stat boosters, one could do the same to Rebecca for the same effect, in the end however, both Erk and Rebecca don't need those, so it's pointless.

Just agree to disagree, there's no other way around it.

Edited June 18, 2018 by DiogoJorge

[Ironthunder]

7 minutes ago, DiogoJorge said:

Erk can't cause physical damage and his tome weight more, Rebecca is also faster. Erk is Rebecca's equal, hardly better. And before you say 1-2 range, reminder that he's frail and he should rarely if ever be at 1 range.

Also, Lyn is the one who deserves the Seraph robe more. Matthew or Florina are the ones who should get the energy ring.

Quite frankly you're entirely missing the point of Erk. Erk can't cause physical damage? Why would he need to? Basically every other unit you have will do physical damage. Rebecca has range, but quite frankly she has Spd and barely anything else, so she's in a similar boat to units like Guy and Lyn. Fast, but 1x2 isn't benefitting anyone. Especially on HHM. Rebecca's got glaring issues that frankly never resolve, such as very low damage and typically requiring Cleric treatment when it comes to combat, seeing as she's about as durable as damp paper in a wind tunnel. Frankly, there's often much better units to bother with than a weak, frail archer. She's barely worth bothering with in ENM.

[MacLovin]

10 minutes ago, DiogoJorge said:

Erk can't cause physical damage and his tomes weight more, Rebecca is also faster and uses lighter weapons. Erk is Rebecca's equal, not better. And before you say 1-2 range, reminder that he's frail and he should rarely if ever be at 1 range.

His contributions are about the same as Rebecca's, since he does pretty much the same thing as she does for the most part, and unlike her, he can't use Balistas nor use Longbows or the Brave Bow. If he didn't have acess to staves, he would be inferior to Rebecca.

Also, Lyn is the one who deserves the Seraph robe more. Matthew or Florina are the ones who should get the energy ring. If we go by stat boosters, one could do the same to Rebecca for the same effect, in the end however, both Erk and Rebecca don't need those, so it's pointless.

Just agree to disagree, there's no other way around it.

Erk lvl 20 unpromoted averages

20

29.35

12.6

13.6

16.5

8.7

5.8

11.6

Rebecca lvl 20 unpromoted averages

20

28.4

11.6

14.5

17.4

13.5

5.85

6.7

 

literally all she gets is a +1 advantage in speed/skl/luck.

 

Erk can use thunder tomes without AS loss at promotion, and only with a -1 AS loss unpromoted. Hit for hit, he does more damage on literally anything except maybe Slim Lance Pegs. They have the same avoid and durability on top of that. 

 

a 20/1 Rebecca is really close to the base stats of Louise, just beating her in hp/str/spd by a few points. . A 20/1 Erk on the other hand, gets punked by Pent. 

 

Well fe7 is an enemy phase meatgrinder of a game, which really fucks Rebecca/Wil over big time.

[ping]

3 hours ago, DiogoJorge said:

How is it inconsitent? That's usually what happens.

Considering the Pegasus Knights on chapter 12-13 and the bridge chokepoint on chapter 13x, she actually gains more in those, so it's perfectly consistent. Rebecca is usually higher level than Erk by the time he joins.

On 17.6.2018 at 11:21 AM, DiogoJorge said:

She doesn't need that many levels at once to begin with. If she's leveling 1 level per chapter, then she's progressing just fine.

On 15.6.2018 at 1:09 PM, ping said:

So how is it, then? Is Rebecca chipping for other units, netting her like 10 XP per turn, or is she taking kills which will require the melee unit to take a counter?

3 hours ago, ping said:

It's almost funny how inconcistent you are with your numbers

:]

3 hours ago, DiogoJorge said:

Erk can't cause physical damage and his tomes weight more, Rebecca is also faster and uses lighter weapons. Erk is Rebecca's equal, not better. And before you say 1-2 range, reminder that he's frail and he should rarely if ever be at 1 range.

Magic damage almost always better. Against magic enemies, 1-2 range almost always better than bows. Against pegasi -

On 11.6.2018 at 8:27 PM, ping said:

Bartre does more damage to an pegasus knight than Rebecca at base level:

Thunder: 8 Might, 6 Weight
Steel Bow: 9 Might, 9 Weight

3 hours ago, ping said:

It's almost funny how inconcistent you are with your numbers

[Paper Jam]

Magic damage almost always better. Against magic enemies, 1-2 range almost always better than bows.

And how much magic damage can you do in chapters 12 to 13x?

[DiogoJorge]

3 hours ago, Ironthunder said:

Quite frankly you're entirely missing the point of Erk. Erk can't cause physical damage? Why would he need to? Basically every other unit you have will do physical damage. Rebecca has range, but quite frankly she has Spd and barely anything else, so she's in a similar boat to units like Guy and Lyn. Fast, but 1x2 isn't benefitting anyone. Especially on HHM. Rebecca's got glaring issues that frankly never resolve, such as very low damage and typically requiring Cleric treatment when it comes to combat, seeing as she's about as durable as damp paper in a wind tunnel. Frankly, there's often much better units to bother with than a weak, frail archer. She's barely worth bothering with in ENM.

Because physical damage is more effective against different kinds of enemies? pegasus, mages, myrmidons etc...? Also, tomes have lower MT than bows and tomes like Fimbulvetr are incredibly heavy. Silver Bow has the same MT but only weights 6, that means Rebecca can use it whitout losing a single point of SPD as a Sniper.

The thing is, Rebecca does physical damage from a distance and has higher MT weapons than javelins or handaxes to rely on, not to mention Brave Bow and Longbow being powerfull tools, since there's not a single other weapon that can attack 4x at a distance or a weapon that can attack at 3 range while not weighting as much as a siege tome nor having limited uses.

[ping]

7 minutes ago, Paper Jam said:

And how much magic damage can you do in chapters 12 to 13x?

...which is relevant because...?

I don't deny that Rebecca has her uses while she's deployed anyway and that one should let her do her minor chip when it's helpful.

If you're referring to the screenshot from 13x, I just don't have a more advanced HHM save file at hand right now.

4 minutes ago, DiogoJorge said:

Because physical damage is more effective against different kinds of enemies? pegasus, mages, myrmidons etc...? Also, tomes have lower MT than bows and tomes like Fimbulvetr are incredibly heavy. Silver Bow has the same MT but only weights 6, that means Rebecca can use it whitout losing a single point of SPD as a Sniper.

Myrmidons have higher Defense than Resistance.It's almost funny how inconcistent you are with your numbers

[DiogoJorge]

8 minutes ago, ping said:

...which is relevant because...?

I don't deny that Rebecca has her uses while she's deployed anyway and that one should let her do her minor chip when it's helpful.

If you're referring to the screenshot from 13x, I just don't have a more advanced HHM save file at hand right now.

Myrmidons have higher Defense than Resistance.It's almost funny how inconcistent you are with your numbers

If you honestly don't know the answer to that question... Tell me, how many enemies can Erk actually double early on and how much more damage he causes when the difference between DEF and RES in the enemies is almost negligible? Rebecca can double, since bows don't weight her down, unlike tomes. Add to the fact that Erk's SPD growth is 50% and Rebecca's is 60% and you pretty much get the idea. 

Minor chip? 7 damage in early parts is moderate damage and once she doubles, it becomes good damage for the most part.

Please, have you seen how low their DEF is? You are better off using bows, since they are lighter. You are the one who is being inconcistent, you speak of not giving favouritism to anyone, and now one is supposed to have a lv 7 Erk at this point? Yeah, right, Rebecca levels due to being usefull, it comes off naturally, Erk isn't going to level that much in Lyn mode, since he's not as usefull there. My numbers on the other hand are consistent, since that's what's supposed to happen if you are using Rebecca correctly.

Edited June 18, 2018 by DiogoJorge

[MacLovin]

a lvl 7 erk is actually easy enough to get from LHM if we go with the intention of raising him.

 

In his joining chapter, Erk 2-3HKOs the majority of the enemies, missing out on Erik and the peg knights. 20-25 HP and 0-2 res means he's pretty much doing a large amount of damage. If he took the ring from LHM he's hitting about 9 magic at level 7 on average. This lets him ORKO the knights and pratically 2HKO every non peg knight/Erik on the field with thunder. 

Rebecca 2HKO's the peg knights since thy've got 9 AS. Let's not kid ourselves since there's absolutely no fucking way we're getting Rebecca to 15 AS . She reaches that at level 16, or 15/1. There's absolutely no fucking way that she's doubling them.

Let's say she's level 5 by ch 14. That places her stats at

5

19.4

5.6

7

8.4

6

3.6

2.2

 

So she's running off 10 mt, 8 AS. That's essentially what Eliwood's running off of after a single level in spd. Unlike him, she doesn't get WTA on common axe dudes. 

The only dude's she's 2RKOing are the myrmidons with their 2-3 def/22 hp and the peg knights. Everything else  she does chip damage to. 

 

Furthermore, killing more dudes on EP means more exp, which means more levels. Erk on a forest or mountain tile vs javelins/axes/etc. means he's not nearly as fucked as Rebecca doing the same since he's hitting 1-2 range on the lower res stat.

 

 

Edited June 18, 2018 by Czarpy

[ping]

44 minutes ago, DiogoJorge said:

If you honestly don't know the answer to that question... Tell me, how many enemies can Erk actually double early on and how much more damage he causes when the difference between DEF and RES in the enemies is almost negligible? Rebecca can double, since bows don't weight her down, unlike tomes. Add to the fact that Erk's SPD growth is 50% and Rebecca's is 60% and you pretty much get the idea. 

Erk's average speed is higher than Rebecca's before level 11. Fire tomes don't slow him down.(*)
Level 7 Erk (which I never specified) after Lyn Mode is at least as reasonable as Level 7 Rebecca in chapter 14 (**) - both are obviously possible, but subtract resources from othet units and/or enforce a slower playstyle.
The more threatening enemy classes have higher Def than Res quite consistently (before CoD happens, that is). Cavs in chapter 14 have 6-8 Def, but only 0-1 Res.

(*)also:

1 hour ago, ping said:

Thunder: 8 Might, 6 Weight
Steel Bow: 9 Might, 9 Weight

Note that Erk and rebecca have the same Con.

(**)also:

On 15.6.2018 at 1:09 PM, ping said:

So how is it, then? Is Rebecca chipping for other units, netting her like 10 XP per turn, or is she taking kills which will require the melee unit to take a counter?

 

Edited June 18, 2018 by ping

[Ironthunder]

30 minutes ago, DiogoJorge said:

Because physical damage is more effective against different kinds of enemies? pegasus, mages, myrmidons etc...? Also, tomes have lower MT than bows and tomes like Fimbulvetr are incredibly heavy. Silver Bow has the same MT but only weights 6, that means Rebecca can use it whitout losing a single point of SPD as a Sniper.

The thing is, Rebecca does physical damage from a distance and has higher MT weapons than javelins or handaxes to rely on, not to mention Brave Bow and Longbow being powerfull tools, since there's not a single other weapon that can attack 4x at a distance or a weapon that can attack at 3 range while not weighting as much as a siege tome nor having limited uses.

Against Myrmidons, either physical or magical works, they rarely have either Def or Res in any noteworthy degree. Mages can be handled by mages fairly well, and the only properly threatening thing listed there are pegasi. If your mage is engaging a pegasus, something went very wrong somewhere.

 

You quote Silvers, and yet you forget that neither Silvers nor Fimbulvetr are a thing for a solid chunk of the game. For the most part, she'll be chugging along on Iron or Steel. Also most mages tend to have a higher Con than a female Sniper, meaning the Spd penalty is less notable, and the mages will likely still outdamage her anyway by the time you hit Silvers.

 

The extra range of the Longbow and quadding with a Brave Bow is cool and all, but the strength of javelins, hand axes and the like isn't in the range, it's that they allow melee units to be able to counter at range, allowing them to do more in enemy phase. All Rebecca can do in enemy phase is try not to die and occasionally counterhit archers and terrain-blocked mages, because everything else slips in and smacks her in 1-range where she can't do a thing.

20 minutes ago, DiogoJorge said:

If you honestly don't know the answer to that question... Tell me, how many enemies can Erk actually double early on and how much more damage he causes when the difference between DEF and RES in the enemies is almost negligible? Rebecca can double, since bows don't weight her down, unlike tomes. Add to the fact that Erk's SPD growth is 50% and Rebecca's is 60% and you pretty much get the idea. 

Minor chip? 7 damage in early parts is moderate damage and once she doubles, it becomes good damage for the most part.

Please, have you seen how low their DEF is? You are better off using bows, since they are lighter. You are the one who is being inconcistent, you speak of not giving favouritism to anyone, and now one is supposed to have a lv 7 Erk at this point? Yeah, right, Rebecca levels due to being usefull, it comes off naturally, Erk isn't going to level that much in Lyn mode, since he's not as usefull there. My numbers on the other hand are consistent, since that's what's supposed to happen if you are using Rebecca correctly.

 

Erk can level a good bit in Lyn mode, he's the first mage and can hit relatively hard against the enemies there, who have little enough Res as is unless they're a pegasus or a mage. Bows hit those lower-Def units harder, but equally those units are the vast minority of the units in the game, and most of the actually troubling enemies will have more Def than Res because most units are physical. This isn't new, this is just how the game works. 

 

Earlier in the thread, someone stated that one level per map was about right for average unit level growth, so I'll run with that for a baseline. Erk comes in at level 1 in chapter 5. Therefore, by the end of Lyn Mode, he should be at least level 6, likely slightly higher because magic ensures his damage output stays high by Lyn Mode standards. So him coming back in at chapter 14 at level 7 is really not a stretch in the slightest, it just requires you to use Erk. By comparison, for Hector Mode Rebecca comes at level 1 in chapter 12, meaning she's likely level 3 by the time you get Erk.

[MacLovin]

5 minutes ago, Ironthunder said:

Against Myrmidons, either physical or magical works, they rarely have either Def or Res in any noteworthy degree. Mages can be handled by mages fairly well, and the only properly threatening thing listed there are pegasi. If your mage is engaging a pegasus, something went very wrong somewhere.

 

You quote Silvers, and yet you forget that neither Silvers nor Fimbulvetr are a thing for a solid chunk of the game. For the most part, she'll be chugging along on Iron or Steel. Also most mages tend to have a higher Con than a female Sniper, meaning the Spd penalty is less notable, and the mages will likely still outdamage her anyway by the time you hit Silvers.

 

The extra range of the Longbow and quadding with a Brave Bow is cool and all, but the strength of javelins, hand axes and the like isn't in the range, it's that they allow melee units to be able to counter at range, allowing them to do more in enemy phase. All Rebecca can do in enemy phase is try not to die and occasionally counterhit archers and terrain-blocked mages, because everything else slips in and smacks her in 1-range where she can't do a thing.

 

Erk can level a good bit in Lyn mode, he's the first mage and can hit relatively hard against the enemies there, who have little enough Res as is unless they're a pegasus or a mage. Bows hit those lower-Def units harder, but equally those units are the vast minority of the units in the game, and most of the actually troubling enemies will have more Def than Res because most units are physical. This isn't new, this is just how the game works. 

 

Earlier in the thread, someone stated that one level per map was about right for average unit level growth, so I'll run with that for a baseline. Erk comes in at level 1 in chapter 5. Therefore, by the end of Lyn Mode, he should be at least level 6, likely slightly higher because magic ensures his damage output stays high by Lyn Mode standards. So him coming back in at chapter 14 at level 7 is really not a stretch in the slightest, it just requires you to use Erk. By comparison, for Hector Mode Rebecca comes at level 1 in chapter 12, meaning she's likely level 3 by the time you get Erk.

iirc, the dude defending rebecca said that one level a map for her is about right.

 

lol lvl 3 rebecca being compared to lvl 6 erk. that's just not going to cut it at all.

Erk takes all of about jack shit to get to ORKOing in lyn mode and has similar durability to lyn herself without the robe being given to either of them.

Edited June 18, 2018 by Czarpy

[Hanes]

Nino is best shut up. 

Who is better? I would say Nino is just as hard to train as Rebecca, And one joins way later so who is it? Now before you say "Rebecca joins earlier" If she isn't used for 2 chapters since her recruitment then she is unusable. Nino is the same, if she isn't used for the next 2 chapters then she is unusable, so Nino > Rebecca. Also, why does 1-2 Range mater? Well although we all wish to be perfect minds who error on nothing, the truth is that we are not, we often make mistakes and do shitty maneuvers so even if Erk should never be put to fight at close range we sometimes accidentally do and it would be good to at least get damage done to the enemy so that next turn or near-death Erk Can be safe after killing the enemy, good luck with that for Rebecca, she isn' just super frail but also can't attack at close range so she can easily die.'

EDIT: I'm fucking joking, but this is how Diogo seems to be, just saying bullshit reasoning.

Edited June 19, 2018 by This boi uses Nino

[DiogoJorge]

19 hours ago, Czarpy said:

a lvl 7 erk is actually easy enough to get from LHM if we go with the intention of raising him.

 

In his joining chapter, Erk 2-3HKOs the majority of the enemies, missing out on Erik and the peg knights. 20-25 HP and 0-2 res means he's pretty much doing a large amount of damage. If he took the ring from LHM he's hitting about 9 magic at level 7 on average. This lets him ORKO the knights and pratically 2HKO every non peg knight/Erik on the field with thunder. 

Rebecca 2HKO's the peg knights since thy've got 9 AS. Let's not kid ourselves since there's absolutely no fucking way we're getting Rebecca to 15 AS . She reaches that at level 16, or 15/1. There's absolutely no fucking way that she's doubling them.

Let's say she's level 5 by ch 14. That places her stats at

5

19.4

5.6

7

8.4

6

3.6

2.2

 

So she's running off 10 mt, 8 AS. That's essentially what Eliwood's running off of after a single level in spd. Unlike him, she doesn't get WTA on common axe dudes. 

The only dude's she's 2RKOing are the myrmidons with their 2-3 def/22 hp and the peg knights. Everything else  she does chip damage to. 

 

Furthermore, killing more dudes on EP means more exp, which means more levels. Erk on a forest or mountain tile vs javelins/axes/etc. means he's not nearly as fucked as Rebecca doing the same since he's hitting 1-2 range on the lower res stat.

 

 

So does Rebecca by the time Erk joins? 

He's not lv 7 when he joins, he's usually lv 3 or so.

She is not doubling the early ones, since they have Slim lances and Iron Lances, but the later ones with javelins she can double no problem. And let's not kid ourselves, the only ones that will be dealing with those pegasus will be Rebecca, Dorcas and Barte, since in chapter 14, they are meant to guard Merlinus tent from the Pegasus reinforcements, neither can one shot whitout a Steel weapon. And since Barte and Dorcas are inferior to Rebecca, that means she has dibs on them.

Eliwood can't attack at range and he's still decent, so that's a point in Rebecca's favor. Unless the enemy are knights, she's not doing chip damage, she's doing average to good damage.

No it doesn't, since there's only so much one can kill in EP, Erk will be lucky if he can kill more than one per EP, Erk isn't meant to be in the frontlines. He wasn't f-word to begin with, since he's good, but he still has to rely on heavier weapons, have a lower SPD growth and the one thing he has over Rebecca is staves, otherwise they pretty much function the same way, with Rebecca having acess to Longbows and Brave Bows while Erk gets his own tool in the form of healing. The difference between the DEF and RES stat is usually negligible, with the exception of enemy Wyverns and Knights who have low RES no matter how much high level they are, considering that Wyverns are weak against arrows and that Rebecca can attack them 4x in a row with  a Brave Bow or at longer range, she has the advantage over Erk on that particular enemy, since the only wind tome is only obtainable in the final chapter.

 

15 hours ago, This boi uses Nino said:

Nino is best shut up. 

Who is better? I would say Nino is just as hard to train as Rebecca, And one joins way later so who is it? Now before you say "Rebecca joins earlier" If she isn't used for 2 chapters since her recruitment then she is unusable. Nino is the same, if she isn't used for the next 2 chapters then she is unusable, so Nino > Rebecca. Also, why does 1-2 Range mater? Well although we all wish to be perfect minds who error on nothing, the truth is that we are not, we often make mistakes and do shitty maneuvers so even if Erk should never be put to fight at close range we sometimes accidentally do and it would be good to at least get damage done to the enemy so that next turn or near-death Erk Can be safe after killing the enemy, good luck with that for Rebecca, she isn' just super frail but also can't attack at close range so she can easily die.'

EDIT: I'm fucking joking, but this is how Diogo seems to be, just saying bullshit reasoning.

Not really. Nino has poor availability and is much more difficult to train, since she doesn't start on the earlier chapters. She's even more difficult to train than Rath, that's pretty much why one shouldn't bother using her other than her sidechapter.

Rebecca doesn't need to attack at close range to begin with.

Sure, it's BS because you don't know how to use her propely. Erk gets one measly attack in EP, big whoop, while forgetting that Rebecca has higher SPD and thus being able to dominate during Player Phase and still be able to be put in enemies 2 range for the same effect.

I also didn't insult you before, so keep the hostilities to yourself.

 

19 hours ago, ping said:

Erk's average speed is higher than Rebecca's before level 11. Fire tomes don't slow him down.(*)
Level 7 Erk (which I never specified) after Lyn Mode is at least as reasonable as Level 7 Rebecca in chapter 14 (**) - both are obviously possible, but subtract resources from othet units and/or enforce a slower playstyle.
The more threatening enemy classes have higher Def than Res quite consistently (before CoD happens, that is). Cavs in chapter 14 have 6-8 Def, but only 0-1 Res.

(*)also:

Note that Erk and rebecca have the same Con.

(**)also:

 

Good luck with that, Erk is usually lv 3 when he rejoins, meaning 9 SPD at best, when Rebecca has that same value or higher at level 7 by the time he joins.

No it's not reasonable, since Lyn, Florina, Matthew, Kent and Sain are leading the charge. He gets some kills, but not enough to jump from 1 to 7, at best he achieves lv 4 or so. I mean even Lucius only gets one or two levels, someone like Florina gets 4, let alone Erk who is inferior to both.

They don't subtract resources from other units though nor is it slower as I've shown with that video on chapter 11.

Knights aren't that threatening and wyverns are more easily destroyed with an archer than with a mage, since they have acess to more powerfull and lighter weapons.

I'm aware of that, I did told you that Rebecca has 6 CON as a Sniper or have you forgotten already? Also, have you forgotten that a Silver Bow is lighter than most tomes and that a Steel Bow is still lighter than a Elfire tome? I thought as much. Thunder and Fire toms are the only tomes that actually allows for Erk to double often enough and even then, Rebecca will still double more than he does.

I already answered that question before, she softens enemies or kills them as it fits the situation, as it should be. Stop asking the same question when I already answered it before.