Do you want, and how could FEH incorporate laguz

[jameslove001]

I am curious if any of you have thought much about the laguz entering the world of FEH. Some of my favorite characters in the series are from Radiant Dawn, and particularly a lot of the laguz. I was wondering if any of you even particularly want any of these characters to come into the game. Or maybe, they are too minor compared to some of the other characters people are waiting for.

Second, and one of the reasons I think they haven't and may not for a while is it would be difficult to incorporate that build up and wait time into the square. You can't really dodge combat for a few turns and then wait to recharge. In addition, most maps don't last more than three or four turns, so many would never really see any action if they kept traditional lore.

Thoughts?

[Shadow Mir]

I think they just wouldn't work, for reasons you yourself mentioned. Even I, who gave up on Heroes rather quickly, can see that there's going to be a lot of issues with implementing them...

Edited February 12, 2018 by Levant Mir Celestia

[Anacybele]

Laguz could work just like the dragons do, but with claw, fang, or talon weapons instead of breaths. I don't see how they'd be hard to implement. Also, they're the most wanted Tellius characters right now, so they're definitely going to get in sometime.

I also really want them myself, as Ranulf and Tibarn are awesome and Ranulf is one of my favorite Tellius characters.

Edited February 12, 2018 by Anacybele

[DarkLordIvy]

Almost all the characters I want in heroes that haven't been added with like three exceptions are Laguz.

What makes sense to me is for them to basically just use the dragon system that's already in place as a base and make them all physical attackers. Lets kill the idea of sticking them all in colorless.

[omegaxis1]

Just now, Anacybele said:

Laguz could work just like the dragons do, but with claw, fang, or talon weapons instead of breaths. I don't see how they'd be hard to implement. Also, they're the most wanted Tellius characters right now, so they're definitely going to get in sometime.

I also really want them myself, as Ranulf and Tibarn are awesome and Ranulf is one of my favorite Tellius characters.

But how though? Would they just be more colored units? Would a completely new thing be installed for them? If so, what makes them unique? Thing about Dragons is that they are close attackers that hits Res, though now the refinery makes them be able to hit Def or Res. 

Would laguz be the opposite of dragons? In that they are two range attackers but hit Def instead of Res? No, that would be archers. So what would be their gimmick? 

[Rezzy]

2 minutes ago, omegaxis1 said:

But how though? Would they just be more colored units? Would a completely new thing be installed for them? If so, what makes them unique? Thing about Dragons is that they are close attackers that hits Res, though now the refinery makes them be able to hit Def or Res. 

Would laguz be the opposite of dragons? In that they are two range attackers but hit Def instead of Res? No, that would be archers. So what would be their gimmick? 

 

3 minutes ago, DarkLordIvy said:

Almost all the characters I want in heroes that haven't been added with like three exceptions are Laguz.

What makes sense to me is for them to basically just use the dragon system that's already in place as a base and make them all physical attackers. Lets kill the idea of sticking them all in colorless.

 

6 minutes ago, Anacybele said:

Laguz could work just like the dragons do, but with claw, fang, or talon weapons instead of breaths. I don't see how they'd be hard to implement. Also, they're the most wanted Tellius characters right now, so they're definitely going to get in sometime.

I also really want them myself, as Ranulf and Tibarn are awesome and Ranulf is one of my favorite Tellius characters.

They can make all the Beast Laguz Green, so they're weak to Fire, like in Tellius.  Birds can all be Blue, so they're weak to Wind for the same reason.  Dragons can be a case-by-case basis, like they are now.  Nasir could be Blue, Ena could be Red, etc.

 

Radiant Laguz Banner: Ranulf and Lethe (Green Beast Stone), Reyson (Blue Slap, super effective against Oliver and also a Flying Dancer), Ena (Red Dragon Stone)

[Lushen]

I think the breakdown will be like

Fliers - Hawks/Crow/Heron Laguz
Armored - Dragon Laguz
Infantry - Beast Laguz

I think all hawks and crows will have 'talon' weapons and despite the pool consisting of multiple colors all colors will be able to inherit any talon similar to dragons.
Armored Dragon Laguz will have 'breath' skills.  
Beast Laguz will have 'claw' weapons.

This would be the best way to do it imo because this game is starting to lack diversity.  How many red swords do we have?  This way, all the laguz will feel incredibly unique.  We might only have 1-2 blue beast laguz and 1-2 green beast laguz and 1-2 blue hawk laguz, all of which would be very different from one another.

[NegativeExponents-]

33 minutes ago, DarkLordIvy said:

Almost all the characters I want in heroes that haven't been added with like three exceptions are Laguz.

What makes sense to me is for them to basically just use the dragon system that's already in place as a base and make them all physical attackers. Lets kill the idea of sticking them all in colorless.

 

32 minutes ago, omegaxis1 said:

But how though? Would they just be more colored units? Would a completely new thing be installed for them? If so, what makes them unique? Thing about Dragons is that they are close attackers that hits Res, though now the refinery makes them be able to hit Def or Res. 

Would laguz be the opposite of dragons? In that they are two range attackers but hit Def instead of Res? No, that would be archers. So what would be their gimmick? 

And that’s why I’m a big supporter of them being close-range colorless units. Every other color has close attackers except colorless and colorless is one of the best offensive colors so it’s not like it’s incredibly detrimental for them.

Edited February 12, 2018 by NegativeExponents-
Bolder some stuff for clarification

[Liliesgrace]

3 minutes ago, NegativeExponents- said:

 

And that’s why I’m a big supporter of them being close-range colorless units. Every other color has close attackers except colorless and colorless is one of the best offensive colors so it’s not like it’s incredibly detrimental for them.

If this were the case IS could always make units stand out by giving personal weapons perks such as effectiveness against Calvary, mages, etc.

[Rezzy]

37 minutes ago, Lushen said:

I think the breakdown will be like

Fliers - Hawks/Crow/Heron Laguz
Armored - Dragon Laguz
Infantry - Beast Laguz

I think all hawks and crows will have 'talon' weapons and despite the pool consisting of multiple colors all colors will be able to inherit any talon similar to dragons.
Armored Dragon Laguz will have 'breath' skills.  
Beast Laguz will have 'claw' weapons.

This would be the best way to do it imo because this game is starting to lack diversity.  How many red swords do we have?  This way, all the laguz will feel incredibly unique.  We might only have 1-2 blue beast laguz and 1-2 green beast laguz and 1-2 blue hawk laguz, all of which would be very different from one another.

To be honest, I don't think having all the Beast and Birds in one color will not be a huge deal.  If we go by my and other's suggestion, it keep both away from Red, the most bloated color, and there aren't really enough characters available to really flood their given type.  I'm not a huge fan of arbitrarily dividing up the Birds and Beasts for no apparent reason.

[Cornguy]

24 minutes ago, Lushen said:

I think the breakdown will be like

Fliers - Hawks/Crow/Heron Laguz
Armored - Dragon Laguz
Infantry - Beast Laguz

I think all hawks and crows will have 'talon' weapons and despite the pool consisting of multiple colors all colors will be able to inherit any talon similar to dragons.
Armored Dragon Laguz will have 'breath' skills.  
Beast Laguz will have 'claw' weapons.

This would be the best way to do it imo because this game is starting to lack diversity.  How many red swords do we have?  This way, all the laguz will feel incredibly unique.  We might only have 1-2 blue beast laguz and 1-2 green beast laguz and 1-2 blue hawk laguz, all of which would be very different from one another.

You don't think the beasts should be cavalry? I kinda think they should have the extra point of movement. 

I don't think there's a problem making them physical stone-users. With the argument of it being too similar to sword/axe/lance, you may as well stop adding characters at all if that's a problem. Even if you somehow added all of them, it wouldn't even be that many of them, but the likelihood is that we'll probably only see a few of each type, possibly no dragons.

You could also do a colorless or two, which would be unique in being the only neutral melee units. Hell, you could make them all colorless, make their refinery buff be CA3, like how the dragons can attack def/res. Just lock them out of DC if it seems too strong. "Cannot be inherited due to weapon type restrictions".

I dunno, I think there's no good reason not to add them, and everyone saying it'd be complicated just lack imagination. 

[Moblin Major General]

All of the non-dragon laguz can be gray so that we can introduce Panne at the same time, as well as maybe Xane. Nasir could be green, Gareth and Ena red, and Kurth probably blue.

Edit: Also Kaden and Keaton

Edited February 13, 2018 by Hylian Air Force

[Ice Dragon]

There's literally no reason not to implement them exactly like dragons. Dragons have changed their implementation in the main series enough times that it's not unreasonable to make Laguz fit into Heroes and not bend Heroes to fit Laguz.

Strikes could be implemented as simply another colored melee physical weapon type. Dividing color by tribe makes the most sense from a mechanics standpoint. Dragon Tribe as red to be weak to thunder, Bird Tribe as blue to be weak to wind, and Beast Tribe as green to be weak to fire. Herons could be colorless as an analogue to staves.

This also solves the biggest issue with weapon inheritance by having weapons for a given tribe naturally locked to members of that tribe without any finagling of the system. Dragon Tribe would have various breath weapons, though likely not the Red Breath, White Breath, and Black Breath weapons of the original games. Bird Tribe would have talons and beaks. Beast Tribe would have claws and fangs. Herons would have songs for both the weapon and assist slots similarly to staves.

To differentiate these weapons from swords, lances, and axes, and to differentiate between the different animal forms within each tribe, third- and fourth-tier strikes could be made to always have a special effect tailored towards the particular animal type. For further differentiation from Beorc weapons, Laguz could be made to have strike-exclusive passive skills, like Maelstrom or Howl.

Some examples (ignore any brokenness or imbalance; these are just ideas):

• Great Fang: (green strike, Caineghis and Giffca only) 16 Mt. If unit's Atk − foe's Atk ≥ 5, grants +10 to damage when special triggers and unit counterattacks first when attacked.
• Intimidating Fang+: (green strike) 12 Mt. If unit's Atk ≥ foe's Atk, damage increased by (unit's Atk − foe's Atk) × 2.
• Phantom Claw+: (green strike) 12 Mt. If unit's Spd − foe's Spd ≥ 3, any follow-up attack occurs immediately and unit counterattacks first when attacked.
• Great Talon: (blue strike, Tibarn only) 16 Mt. If unit's Def − foe's Def ≥ 5, damage from first attack received by unit during combat reduced by 30%.
• Great Beak: (blue strike, Naesala only) 16 Mt. If unit's Spd − foe's Spd ≥ 10, unit attacks twice consecutively and enemy is inflicted with special cooldown charge -1. (If using similar skill, only highest value applied.)
• Gale Beak+: (blue strike) 14 Mt. If unit's Spd − foe's Spd ≥ 5, enables counterattack regardless of distance and unit counterattacks first when attacked with damage using the lower of foe's Def or Res.
• Black Breath: (red strike, Dheginhansea only) 16 Mt. Enables counterattack regardless of distance if this unit is attacked. Neutralizes "effective against" bonuses. Greatly slows special trigger (cooldown count +2). Grants +10 to damage when special triggers.

[DarkLordIvy]

1 minute ago, NegativeExponents- said:

 

And that’s why I’m a big supporter of them being close-range colorless units. Every other color has close attackers except colorless and colorless is one of the best offensive colors so it’s not like it’s incredibly detrimental for them.

My number one issue with them all being colorless is that would add potentially up to 21 (counting non laguz) more individual characters just to that one pool. That would bring the colorless pool (as of today) up to 55 units which is about as much as the current red pool which everyone agrees is bloated as all get out. I am very aware that its unlikely that all the potential beast units will ever be added but even a small chunk if they were all one color we would end up with just more of a bloat problem. A problem that I don't think will be solved for the red pool any time soon, for the record. There are a lot more red units to add and there are already still a lot of bows, daggers and staffs to be added anyway.

Maybe I've got all this wrong, and if IS does eventually add beast units and make them all gray then I'll eat my words but until then I am firmly in the camp that adding them all to colorless would be a waste.

[r_n]

Dragon laguz just use dragon breaths, everyone else uses new interchangeable beast stone weapons alongside the awakening/fates beasts. 0 need to impliment claws/beaks/etc, acts as an acceptable break for game mechanic reasons, they can introduce new stones as needed.

For "uniqueness" I was thinking infantry units that ignore forest penalties (or maybe 3 move infantry who take standard penalties into forests) and whose weapons are always effective against other beasts and cavalry, alongside whatever extra effects they want. For simplicity's sake they'd be weak to anti-cav weapons rather than needing to implement an entirely different array of anti-beast weapons like the beast slayer; they've updated skills before they can do it again. Incidentally I still think we'll get wyrmslayers eventually...but alternatively they could just not be weak to anti-cav weapons and just have someone get al egendary weapon ala the Falchion. Be a bit weird though...

For the love of god don't throw them into the colorless pool, that'd be awful especially when dragons get to have full triangle advantage. Colorless has enough issues as is anyway.

[Kurrin]

I've been wondering about the yellow-ish and purple orbs that they used in the November FEH Channel and can't help but think they'd be used eventually somehow. I could see at least one of those colors being used for Laguz units, should we ever get them. I'm not sure how I'd feel about new colors getting added to the pool as it is now, but it makes some sense, to me at least. I can't imagine them being relegated to just one color, though.

[EricaofRenais]

Do them like the dragon units and have them different colors by type like stated above me.  Most of the units I want in game are Laguz, so yes I really want Laguz in Heroes especially Naesala.  

[Rezzy]

2 minutes ago, Kurrin said:

I've been wondering about the yellow-ish and purple orbs that they used in the November FEH Channel and can't help but think they'd be used eventually somehow. I could see at least one of those colors being used for Laguz units, should we ever get them. I'm not sure how I'd feel about new colors getting added to the pool as it is now, but it makes some sense, to me at least. I can't imagine them being relegated to just one color, though.

I'm not sure how they could really add more colors to the weapon triangle without doing something convoluted like Paper-Rock-Scissors-Lizard-Spock.

[Kurrin]

1 minute ago, Rezzy said:

I'm not sure how they could really add more colors to the weapon triangle without doing something convoluted like Paper-Rock-Scissors-Lizard-Spock.

Laguz aren't naturally in the weapon triangle, so I would imagine that they would function similarly to Colorless in regards to the triangle.

[Sproutling]

Quote

Do you want

Yes.

Quote

and how could FEH incorporate laguz

At this point, I don't even care anymore. I just want them in the game already.

[Rezzy]

12 minutes ago, Kurrin said:

Laguz aren't naturally in the weapon triangle, so I would imagine that they would function similarly to Colorless in regards to the triangle.

That's true, but neither are magic or manaketes in most games, and they were given colors to fit into the triangle.

[NegativeExponents-]

22 minutes ago, DarkLordIvy said:

My number one issue with them all being colorless is that would add potentially up to 21 (counting non laguz) more individual characters just to that one pool. That would bring the colorless pool (as of today) up to 55 units which is about as much as the current red pool which everyone agrees is bloated as all get out. I am very aware that its unlikely that all the potential beast units will ever be added but even a small chunk if they were all one color we would end up with just more of a bloat problem. A problem that I don't think will be solved for the red pool any time soon, for the record. There are a lot more red units to add and there are already still a lot of bows, daggers and staffs to be added anyway.

Maybe I've got all this wrong, and if IS does eventually add beast units and make them all gray then I'll eat my words but until then I am firmly in the camp that adding them all to colorless would be a waste.

Well, I agree with you. Colorless would definitely become bloated and ideally I would prefer if they were available in all colors, similar to dragons but also available as colorless, however that feels like I’m asking for too much.

6 minutes ago, Kurrin said:

Laguz aren't naturally in the weapon triangle, so I would imagine that they would function similarly to Colorless in regards to the triangle.

I’m not opposed to a new color but if it functions identically to an already existing color what’s the point? I guess if that does happen it at least means you’re guaranteed a Laguz unit every time you summon from this hypothetical new color.

[Kurrin]

2 minutes ago, Rezzy said:

That's true, but neither are magic or manaketes in most games, and they were given colors to fit into the triangle.

Maybe because Dragons are considered magic units, they decided to include them in the game's "magic triangle." idk. But your point still stands. My initial thought was just a theory, is all.

[Humanoid]

I've never played the Tellius games, but personally I'm not a fan of beast races in fantasy fiction in general. I mean, I don't find them offensive or anything like that, I just don't think humans with a few animal features makes for an interesting design. If you were going to base a fantasy race on a certain animal, then go all-in and make them truly seem alien. One of the things I like about the FE games is that they don't do the standard dwarves and elves and whatnot, but if anything it makes it a little more disappointing that they went in this direction

That said, they're a part of Fire Emblem and by that virtue alone have no reason to be excluded from the game. Not too fussed on the details of how they're implemented, if there are relatively few that end up in FEH (say up to a half dozen in total), then chucking them in grey is fine, if there are more than that, then they probably should be spread out.

I don't think adding a new orb colour would solve anything at all, because it's impractical to populate it without either reassigning the colour of existing units (extremely doubtful) or adding at least a few dozen new units into the new colour all in one go.

I think I proposed this before, my thinking at this point would be to remove the "staff" classification from the game. This frees up the third grey unit type for beast-people and eases colourless hell, and meanwhile all existing healers are converted into mages of various colours. The heal skills remain in game but equipping them would halve your damage, similar to how healers have the inherent penalty now.

[Ice Dragon]

1 minute ago, Kurrin said:

Maybe because Dragons are considered magic units, they decided to include them in the game's "magic triangle." idk. But your point still stands. My initial thought was just a theory, is all.

In no Fire Emblem game except Heroes does thunder magic have weapon triangle advantage against swords.

There's no reason not to use the weapon triangle for dragons and Laguz.

 

3 minutes ago, Humanoid said:

I've never played the Tellius games, but personally I'm not a fan of beast races in fantasy fiction in general. I mean, I don't find them offensive or anything like that, I just don't think humans with a few animal features makes for an interesting design. If you were going to base a fantasy race on a certain animal, then go all-in and make them truly seem alien. One of the things I like about the FE games is that they don't do the standard dwarves and elves and whatnot, but if anything it makes it a little more disappointing that they went in this direction

Fire Emblem's dragons are literally elves that transform into dragons. Tellius's non-dragon Laguz are literally less-long-lived elves that transform into animals.

Pointy ears and everything.