Why do people hate the dragon bosses so much?

[Corrobin]

Medeus, Idunn, Grima, Anankos, etc.

[Slumber]

I think people are moreso tired of them.

Though most of them also end up being incredibly disappointing. Then there's Anankos, which by most accounts I think would say is an incredibly climactic final boss... but it's Anankos. The game builds up for three whole games that you're going to be fighting this dragon that nobody really likes that much.

[Armagon]

It's not that they are hated, it's that people are tired of them. A dragon is almost always the final boss, even if there isn't a reason for it. List of dragon bosses

• Medeus in FE1/11 and 3/12
• Duma in FE15 (he was a God in FE2 but they retconned it)
• Julius somewhat counts since he was being possesed by Lopytr in FE4
• Idoun in FE6
• Generic Fire Dragon in FE7 (the first instance where it was unneccesary)
• Grima in FE13
• Anankos in FE14 Revelation. But also Dragon!Garon in FE14 Birthright

That's 7 final bosses that are dragons

Compared to non-dragon bosses

• Veld in FE5
• Formortiis in FE8
• Ashnard in FE9
• Ashera in FE10
• Takumi in FE14 Conquest

That's 5 non-dragons.

[Hawkwing]

I don't think people hate having to fight a dragon as the final boss, per se. It's more people are tired of them being the final enemy you face. It gets predictable, and it doesn't help that over half the series has them as the final boss, so they have grown pretty stale at this point.

That, and most Fire Emblem bosses go down in two or more hits anyway, so it can ruin the epic feel that a final boss is supposed to have. This isn't a problem limited to just Fire Emblem, however. Many strategy games suffer from having lackluster final bosses/levels, mostly because of how the game mechanics in those games work.

[Modamy]

Along with what the others have said I also feel that it would be more engaging to fight a final boss that was built up over the course of the game rather than a dragon who randomly swoops in and says "Rawr I'm the REAL bad guy."

[JimmyBeans]

To add on I feel that dragons tend to be weaker character wise and battle doesn't feel nearly as meaningful, and most Human Final bosses tend to be more effective. 

Use Ashnard as an example, while he isn't the best villain ever written he is just effective at doing what he does, he is built up properly, and doesn't have some randomly stupid plan along with a somewhat believable reason for doing what he does. 

And While Nergal suffers from being afk so long and doing nothing, he still gets the job done. Dragons just have no depth to them I guess.

[Dragoncat]

Also dragons are awesome and dragon fans don't like killing their favorite mythical creature. At least that's me lol.

[Interdimensional Observer]

The dragon bosses are, besides being overdone as others have pointed out here, not so well integrated into the story. They less a villain and more a force of nature because of how little treatment they get before their one battle.

Anankos is degenerate, so is Duma. Medeus has no pre-final battle presence just because. Idunn is a heartless dragon making machine. Grima does have presence pre-final fight, but it amounts mostly to RAWR FELL DRAGON! The Fire Dragon was not needed in the least- why does it want to kill people? Ancient revenge is the motive Ninian suggest, but that is pretty dang thin and the FD might as well be mindless to us.

Formortiiis, even if being a generic demon king isn't the best, did manage to muster some pre-final battle presence on Eirika's route, more than most of the above. Takumi gets in three fights before the final battle, even if he ultimately just a tool of Anankos and is not exercising free will here.

Ashnard manages to have some story presence with all the scenes in "Nevassa"/Melior, even if the BK, Petrine and Ena hog the direct presence vs. Ike and Ashnard never meets him until the final battle. Ashnard also rode on the back of a dragon, but the dragon was a victim here, Ashy was the threat.

Ashera isn't too far removed from the problematic dragons I admit. But she casts her judgement at the start of Part 4, is acting of her own rational will even if Sephiran intentionally botched the 1000 Year Covenant, and the Tower finale gives us a few scenes of Ashera from long ago, so that helps weave her in a little more.

 

30 minutes ago, Hawkwing said:

That, and most Fire Emblem bosses go down in two or more hits anyway, so it can ruin the epic feel that a final boss is supposed to have. This isn't a problem limited to just Fire Emblem, however. Many strategy games suffer from having lackluster final bosses/levels, mostly because of how the game mechanics in those games work.

Fairly true, individual units can't be that strong in an SRPG/pure Strategy game, and FE has permadeath to work around. I haven't played many strategy games, but I did think that barring Dual Strike (what were they thinking here? Crystal Calamity is much more climatic), AW has had good final battles, Days of Ruin's Sunrise being nasty if you take too long. Codename S.T.E.A.M., well the final fight there was a little too simple.

The GBA era of FE is the worst, with HP sinks tossed alone onto a flat map (FE6 might have been taking FE3 inspiration here- except they combined FE1 Fane "Boss" Tiki/the FE3 Maidens with Medeus). Ashnard's final battle, barring the Ike Wrasolve cheese, is one of the better built since he is present and prominent with the ability to move at turn 9/when you get in his range on Hard/Maniac, but he isn't all the map is. Then you have Ashera and Anankos, fights roughly the same where the boss is the star of the show, but things worked out okay.

[Corrobin]

This actually reminds me of an idea I had a while back.

Essentially, the game's Hardin and/or Gharnef character always has their face covered (in the case of the former, a helmet, while the latter would be a hood). Then, at the endgame, it comes off.. and they're a draconic humanoid, like my avatar.

Would that be interesting or new? Would you like it?

[link16hit]

because it's became boring/repetitive...but it's most the : humans needs to die/I'm the most evil dragon so I kill.

If you play Echoes, you saw Duma crazy and Mila becoming crazy.

 

[Medeus]

Redundancy, questionable implementation into the story (especially with the last few games), and lack of innovation/deviation in their roles.

Having just one of these issues would be a problem, but having all of them together makes it worse as it feels like IS is using them as a clutch and is not doing anything to evolve the concept further so that it's more cohesive with the story. The fact that examples like Anankos exists also doesn't help as you can easily argue that he's a detriment to the story, and thus completely unneeded to make the plot around him work. 

[Icelerate]

The whole point of dragon bosses is to give the audience a sense of satisfaction that the heroes are strong enough to overcome an extremely powerful being. Also game play wise, a human boss will generally be too weak to stand up against a bunch of top tier playable units. Character wise, final bosses are seldom interesting at least in comparison to other major bosses. 

[Emperor Hardin]

Speaking of Veld, wasn't he supposed to reveal himself as a Manakete and transform into a dragon at one point in development?

[Interdimensional Observer]

1 hour ago, Emperor Hardin said:

Speaking of Veld, wasn't he supposed to reveal himself as a Manakete and transform into a dragon at one point in development?

I don't know about that exactly. We know there was supposed to be something, but what exactly is not known, for what we do have is:

In the Final Chapter it seems there was going to be another (final?) boss—perhaps a monster since its lines are in Katakana (like Mediuth and Loputousu).

 

Final Chapter

(Mystery final boss?)

(Fighting?)

Boss?:
“Intruders… Leave…at once…”

(Defeating?)

Boss?:
“Ugh…! Gaaaaahhhhh…”

(Releasing?)

Boss?:
“……”

[Maybe this unused final boss was supposed to be monster, considering its lines were in katakana.]

[Ronnie]

People hate the dragon bosses?

Shows how out of loop I am with the FE community lately.

[Emperor Hardin]

11 minutes ago, Interdimensional Observer said:

I don't know about that exactly. We know there was supposed to be something, but what exactly is not known, for what we do have is:

In the Final Chapter it seems there was going to be another (final?) boss—perhaps a monster since its lines are in Katakana (like Mediuth and Loputousu).

 

Final Chapter

(Mystery final boss?)

(Fighting?)

Boss?:
“Intruders… Leave…at once…”

(Defeating?)

Boss?:
“Ugh…! Gaaaaahhhhh…”

(Releasing?)

Boss?:
“……”

[Maybe this unused final boss was supposed to be monster, considering its lines were in katakana.]

I remember reading some interview where it was said there were plans for Veld to turn into a dragon that cut for time/effort. I'll look for it anyhow.

1 minute ago, Ronnie said:

People hate the dragon bosses?

Shows how out of loop I am with the FE community lately.

I don't think people hate the Dragon bosses, they just want a non dragon final boss.

Edited February 14, 2018 by Emperor Hardin

[The Roger The Paladin]

19 hours ago, Armagon said:

It's not that they are hated, it's that people are tired of them. A dragon is almost always the final boss, even if there isn't a reason for it. List of dragon bosses

• Medeus in FE1/11 and 3/12
• Duma in FE15 (he was a God in FE2 but they retconned it)
• Julius somewhat counts since he was being possesed by Lopytr in FE4
• Idoun in FE6
• Generic Fire Dragon in FE7 (the first instance where it was unneccesary)
• Grima in FE13
• Anankos in FE14 Revelation. But also Dragon!Garon in FE14 Birthright

That's 7 final bosses that are dragons

Compared to non-dragon bosses

• Veld in FE5
• Formortiis in FE8
• Ashnard in FE9
• Ashera in FE10
• Takumi in FE14 Conquest

That's 5 non-dragons.

And then technically, Takumi is possessed by Anankos and Ashnard is riding a dragon.
So you know. You may as well count them out if you're going to count out Julius. That leaves you with 3.
Also if you're counting spin-offs, Warriors uses a certain "Chaos Dragon" as a final boss.
As much as I love dragons, it would be nice to see the occasional game where they weren't thrown in as a last minute foe.
Even Radiant Dawn and Sacred Stones are guilty of late game bosses being dragons because they're a threat.

[Armagon]

29 minutes ago, Mad-manakete said:

And then technically, Takumi is possessed by Anankos and Ashnard is riding a dragon.

I forgot Takumi was possesed by Anankos but i wouldn't count Ashnard. Whereas with Julius and Takumi, it's actually Lopytr and Anankos controlling them respectively, Ashnard is acting completely by his own free will. He rides a dragon, yes, but that's as as far as it goes. There's no draconic influence with Ashnard.

[The Roger The Paladin]

18 minutes ago, Armagon said:

I forgot Takumi was possesed by Anankos but i wouldn't count Ashnard. Whereas with Julius and Takumi, it's actually Lopytr and Anankos controlling them respectively, Ashnard is acting completely by his own free will. He rides a dragon, yes, but that's as as far as it goes. There's no draconic influence with Ashnard.

Fair argument. Though, I still feel the Dragon does serve as a large part of Ashnard's presence personally. It's "if he can break and ride a dragon as a lesser man does a wyvern, what sort of man is he?" Not to forget it totally bolsters his range and in likelyhood his defence. Ashnard actually, in riding a dragon may be the biggest subversion of the "dragon as the final boss". He turns the dragon from the threat into a mere tool. Why he's one of the best villains in the series in my honest opinion.

[Thane]

Because the biggest problem with dragons or dragon corruption, apart from being beyond repetitive at this point, is that it offers a quick, get-out-of-jail-free-card in terms of plot and characterization. The evil dragon is killed, and all is well in the world. Rather than there actually being a conflict driven by clashing human ideologies or interests, there's an evil being that has to be put down for one reason or another which ties a nice little bow on everything.

Edited February 15, 2018 by Thane

[Interdimensional Observer]

4 hours ago, Mad-manakete said:

Even Radiant Dawn and Sacred Stones are guilty of late game bosses being dragons because they're a threat.

Dheginsea isn't RAWR! though, he is actually much different from any other dragon boss in FE, quite well written. Morva exists for two minutes, rather poorly worked into the plot, despite having been this Great Dragon that helped the five heroes of yore defeat the Demon King.

 

3 hours ago, Mad-manakete said:

Fair argument. Though, I still feel the Dragon does serve as a large part of Ashnard's presence personally. It's "if he can break and ride a dragon as a lesser man does a wyvern, what sort of man is he?" Not to forget it totally bolsters his range and in likelyhood his defence. Ashnard actually, in riding a dragon may be the biggest subversion of the "dragon as the final boss". He turns the dragon from the threat into a mere tool. Why he's one of the best villains in the series in my honest opinion.

If you happen to mean the heroes feel his presence on the grounds he broke a dragon, they thought Ashnard's mount was a common wyvern until he's dead. Although Rajaion looks not too much like a normal dragon, and it still says something about Ashnard's strength that he was able to tame a drugged feral Black Dragon. He literally sits atop them.

[DragonFlames]

On 14.2.2018 at 4:50 PM, Hawkwing said:

I don't think people hate having to fight a dragon as the final boss, per se. It's more people are tired of them being the final enemy you face. It gets predictable, and it doesn't help that over half the series has them as the final boss, so they have grown pretty stale at this point.

That, and most Fire Emblem bosses go down in two or more hits anyway, so it can ruin the epic feel that a final boss is supposed to have. This isn't a problem limited to just Fire Emblem, however. Many strategy games suffer from having lackluster final bosses/levels, mostly because of how the game mechanics in those games work.

The final boss of Stella Glow was pretty epic, I found.

On 14.2.2018 at 5:27 PM, Dragoncat said:

Also dragons are awesome and dragon fans don't like killing their favorite mythical creature. At least that's me lol.

Me too.

18 hours ago, Ronnie said:

People hate the dragon bosses?

Shows how out of loop I am with the FE community lately.

Eh, I like them well enough. But I can see why people would get bored of them.

[Jotari]

5 hours ago, Interdimensional Observer said:

Dheginsea isn't RAWR! though, he is actually much different from any other dragon boss in FE, quite well written. Morva exists for two minutes, rather poorly worked into the plot, despite having been this Great Dragon that helped the five heroes of yore defeat the Demon King.

 

If you happen to mean the heroes feel his presence on the grounds he broke a dragon, they thought Ashnard's mount was a common wyvern until he's dead. Although Rajaion looks not too much like a normal dragon, and it still says something about Ashnard's strength that he was able to tame a drugged feral Black Dragon. He literally sits atop them.

Actually, isn't it really weird they don't notice that beforehand? Canonically, in the sequel, black dragons are really freaking impressive and look much bigger than wyverns. I mean...the models show dragon lords as riding wyverns bigger than Kurth, but inuniverse people say black dragons laguz are much bigger.

I'm in the camp of not caring if the final boss is a dragon or not. Just implement them better than the Fire Dragon. Although, if Veld did randomly turn into a dragon, then I'd be all on for that, even if it makes no bloody sense. It would have made him that more interesting at least. Non dragon bosses can be super boring too.

Edited February 15, 2018 by Jotari

[Strullemia]

Dragon bosses are fine but there have been enough final dragon bosses and they've lost their shock factor. I would love to have a final boss fight against a "normal" human who's just really really strong.

[The Roger The Paladin]

13 hours ago, Interdimensional Observer said:

Dheginsea isn't RAWR! though, he is actually much different from any other dragon boss in FE, quite well written. Morva exists for two minutes, rather poorly worked into the plot, despite having been this Great Dragon that helped the five heroes of yore defeat the Demon King.

 

If you happen to mean the heroes feel his presence on the grounds he broke a dragon, they thought Ashnard's mount was a common wyvern until he's dead. Although Rajaion looks not too much like a normal dragon, and it still says something about Ashnard's strength that he was able to tame a drugged feral Black Dragon. He literally sits atop them.

Again true on Dheginsea. However in context my complaint about dragon bosses is that they seem a little like a mandatory thing at this point is all (being used whether they fit the plot or not), as opposed to your own complaint. The Fire Dragon in Fire Emblem 7 and Morva from Sacred Stones are the biggest offenders in my opinion. Were neither one used with a different formidable foe thrown in as a substitute, would anyone honestly notice? Except for Myrrh being orphaned, which is handled rather badly, neither one has an impact. On Ashnard, I meant more to the player. Though it might have just been my own experience because I played Radiant Dawn first and Path of Radiance years after when I found a copy, thus in retrospect I knew already. Between the dragon riding and his little trick with the Fire Emblem, not to forget his being a (very) mobile boss, the guy actually feels like a bigger threat than other final bosses I've fought.