Why do people hate the dragon bosses so much?

[NPR]

On 2/14/2018 at 10:12 AM, Modamy said:

Along with what the others have said I also feel that it would be more engaging to fight a final boss that was built up over the course of the game rather than a dragon who randomly swoops in and says "Rawr I'm the REAL bad guy."

This. I feel like the major problems with some dragon bosses is that they feel like a copout. In Binding Blade Idooun's battle felt more like cleaning up after Zephiel's mess, so it isn't very climactic. Shadow Dragon gets a small pass because it never really made Medeus a 'character' as much as just a stand in for evil. FE 3 made the mistake of distributing the precieved big bad spot across multiple characters with a 'it was me all along' issue. FE 7 suffers from the FE 6 afterthought/cleaning up after a mess thing. Grima is essentially fine, but they are far too underdeveloped due to the structure of awakening. Anankos is just... yikes. Some things can be too drawn out, confusing, bizarre, and unsatisfying.

The reason there seems to be a dragon or deity at the Endgame is because dragons are symbolic. Ashera is a symbol of order and judgement taken to the extreme. You stop her, an all powerful being, because it helps drive  a symbolic point of the game home. Specifically, that people are flawed, but that they can still strive to do good. Other bosses like the Demon King are symbols for all the evil in the world and the triggers for conflict. The same could be said about Loptyr and his bloodline.

I believe that the dragon/god troupe falls flat only when there are other villians that better symbolize the true ideology of evil or 'the enemy' overall. Essentially, having a dragon or a god allows the player to not just kill the person responsible for an evil act, but the idea of evil itself. That is why we will continue to see the dragon/god, even if it is overused at this point. Hopefully they just do it right.

[Bishop Rodan]

On 2/14/2018 at 10:41 AM, Armagon said:

Generic Fire Dragon in FE7 (the first instance where it was unneccesary)

I actually like this one more than any of the other dragon bosses (aside from Dheginsea, though he's not a final boss). Compared to the others, it actually felt like a threat, like a dragon should be. Compared to FE6, which had one of the worst final bosses in FE history, the FE7 dragon was actually a worthy final boss. Unless you cheesed it with Luna, of course. :P

[Armagon]

10 minutes ago, Bishop Rodan said:

I actually like this one more than any of the other dragon bosses (aside from Dheginsea, though he's not a final boss). Compared to the others, it actually felt like a threat, like a dragon should be. Compared to FE6, which had one of the worst final bosses in FE history, the FE7 dragon was actually a worthy final boss. Unless you cheesed it with Luna, of course. :P

Gameplay-wise, the Fire Dragon is one of the more threatening final bosses in the series but it still doesn't excuse it from being completely unnecessary. The Fire Dragon is just this faceless being with no real motives. It can't even be classified as a villain (at least i wouldn't), that's how little the Fire Dragon has. Compared to Idoun, who actually is the worst final boss but only from a gameplay standpoint. Lore-wise, she's pretty interesting in my opinion and it actually makes sense why she's so easy to beat.

I'll give the Fire Dragon this: it didn't invalidate the entire point of a game like Anankos did in Fates.

[Bishop Rodan]

Yeah I was mainly thinking from a gameplay perspective in my response. I agree that in the grand scheme of the story you didn't need to have the dragon be the final boss, but I feel that, while it may have been unnecessary, it wasn't detrimental, if you get what I mean? Like, yeah, it didn't have to be there, but by being there it didn't necessarily detract from the game or your experience playing it. Hell, in some respects it may have been a positive thing. From a gameplay perspective, Nergal would have been a lame final boss. :P

I do agree that Idoun is an interesting character. From a story perspective alone, she's probably a better final boss.

[Emperor Hardin]

1 hour ago, Bishop Rodan said:

Yeah I was mainly thinking from a gameplay perspective in my response. I agree that in the grand scheme of the story you didn't need to have the dragon be the final boss, but I feel that, while it may have been unnecessary, it wasn't detrimental, if you get what I mean? Like, yeah, it didn't have to be there, but by being there it didn't necessarily detract from the game or your experience playing it. Hell, in some respects it may have been a positive thing. From a gameplay perspective, Nergal would have been a lame final boss. :P

I do agree that Idoun is an interesting character. From a story perspective alone, she's probably a better final boss.

Idenn is kinda unique in that its Zephiel calling the shot, even though he is dead. She's less of a threat and more dangerous because she's producing an army.

[NekoKnight]

21 hours ago, Armagon said:

The Fire Dragon is just this faceless being with no real motives. It can't even be classified as a villain (at least i wouldn't), that's how little the Fire Dragon has.

That's because it's not the villain in the story, Nergal is. Summoning dragons was Nergal's ambition and putting down the dragon he summoned was the final push to ending that ambition. You act like a flying spaghetti monster showed up as the boss, not the thing that the player has been trying to prevent the entire second half of the game. "Unnecessary dragon boss" eh?

[Armagon]

54 minutes ago, NekoKnight said:

That's because it's not the villain in the story, Nergal is. Summoning dragons was Nergal's ambition and putting down the dragon he summoned was the final push to ending that ambition. You act like a flying spaghetti monster showed up as the boss, not the thing that the player has been trying to prevent the entire second half of the game. "Unnecessary dragon boss" eh?

Alright, i get where you're coming from but i still feel that the Fire Dragon was unnecessary. The entire point of the endgame was to kill Nergal before he summons the dragons but nah, he does it anyway. I think a better way of handling it would be that Nergal is the final boss and the Fire Dragons are reinforcements, similar to the battle with Idoun in FE6. Of course, that would require nerfing the Fire Dragons but it would be much better than not having to worry about the out-of-reach Morphs Bolting you and whatnot. That's another thing i didn't like. Why are the Morphs still there? Nergal is dead.

[Jotari]

7 minutes ago, Armagon said:

Alright, i get where you're coming from but i still feel that the Fire Dragon was unnecessary. The entire point of the endgame was to kill Nergal before he summons the dragons but nah, he does it anyway. I think a better way of handling it would be that Nergal is the final boss and the Fire Dragons are reinforcements, similar to the battle with Idoun in FE6. Of course, that would require nerfing the Fire Dragons but it would be much better than not having to worry about the out-of-reach Morphs Bolting you and whatnot. That's another thing i didn't like. Why are the Morphs still there? Nergal is dead.

Why are the morphs even there from a gameplay stand point? I mean, if I remember rightly, they;re so far away, they can't even reach the area where the Fire Dragon is, only the bridge you're on at the start. Which you're not going to hang around unless you just lazily don't move half your army because they're not needed.

[Ae†her]

Because realistically Dragons should be able to burn you to death before you can even reach them with your special metal sticks. (My take on it.)

However, as we learn dragon breath fire is magical, and you can thus be somehow resistant to fire. (Most people's take on it.)

Edit: Okay, on a side note I don't think it can't be cool for the final boss to be a dragon, but they need to make them much more threatening and dangerous relative to your army. Not as some evil world destroying dragon, but one that is a monster that'll terrorize cities and villages until it can finally be put to death. The dragons should move around in the final map from place to place, but only after you've managed to fixate your army such that dragon can not easily kill your units (that's where gameplay comes in).

Edited February 19, 2018 by Ae†her

[Jotari]

3 minutes ago, Ae†her said:

Because realistically Dragons should be able to burn you to death before you can even reach them with your special metal sticks. (My take on it.)

However, as we learn dragon breath fire is magical, and you can thus be somehow resistant to fire. (Most people's take on it.)

You also shouldn't be able to fight and live after being slashed open by a sword six times.

[Ae†her]

2 minutes ago, Jotari said:

You also shouldn't be able to fight and live after being slashed open by a sword six times.

You also shouldn't be able to lug around gigantic metal sticks with ease without being somewhat superhuman.

[Sentacotus]

Because they are done in just about every game.  In a game where tactics and one on one engagements are important it essentially devolves into 4 OP lord units gang up on dragon healer out of range and kill dragon.

[Jotari]

12 minutes ago, LordOTaco said:

Because they are done in just about every game.  In a game where tactics and one on one engagements are important it essentially devolves into 4 OP lord units gang up on dragon healer out of range and kill dragon.

Well that's a problem the series has regardless of how draconic the final boss is. Not like Fomortiis or Ashnard are any better in that regard.

Edited February 19, 2018 by Jotari

[DragonFlames]

9 hours ago, Jotari said:

Well that's a problem the series has regardless of how draconic the final boss is. Not like Fomortiis or Ashnard are any better in that regard.

From a story perspective, Ashnard, Ashera, Medeus and Duma are pretty much the only final bosses that make sense, since you can only kill them with their respective games' final weapons both gameplay and story-wise and in the case of Ashnard, Ashera and (possibly) Medeus, you can't even damage them without said weapons, which is, again, completely justified by the plot. If that were not the case, then why the hell would we even NEED the legendary weapons, if just about any dumb villager can just walk up to the big bad and nail his nose to the back of his skull?

Sure, it's cool that you can use just about anyone to one-round Anankos in Revelation, but if, for instance, Kana with a Brave Sword can do it, then why did I need to spend half the game recruiting my absolutely moronic siblings that were out to kill me for "betraying" them? I sure as hell didn't need Brynhildr, Siegfried, the Raijinto, the Fujin Yumi OR the Omega Yato to put that dragon out of his misery...

The one possible exception to this (that I know of) is Grima, whose death is in a cutscene regardless of who landed the final blow on him in gameplay, so it's JUSTIFIED that we needed Robin / the Awakening ritual to kill / seal him respectively.
Also Formotiis and Idoun, who, despite being possible to damage with normal means, without the legendary weapons, become pretty much impossible to kill without killing half your army in the process.

[The Roger The Paladin]

30 minutes ago, DragonFlames said:

From a story perspective, Ashnard, Ashera, Medeus and Duma are pretty much the only final bosses that make sense, since you can only kill them with their respective games' final weapons both gameplay and story-wise and in the case of Ashnard, Ashera and (possibly) Medeus, you can't even damage them without said weapons, which is, again, completely justified by the plot. If that were not the case, then why the hell would we even NEED the legendary weapons, if just about any dumb villager can just walk up to the big bad and nail his nose to the back of his skull?

Sure, it's cool that you can use just about anyone to one-round Anankos in Revelation, but if, for instance, Kana with a Brave Sword can do it, then why did I need to spend half the game recruiting my absolutely moronic siblings that were out to kill me for "betraying" them? I sure as hell didn't need Brynhildr, Siegfried, the Raijinto, the Fujin Yumi OR the Omega Yato to put that dragon out of his misery...

The one possible exception to this (that I know of) is Grima, whose death is in a cutscene regardless of who landed the final blow on him in gameplay, so it's JUSTIFIED that we needed Robin / the Awakening ritual to kill / seal him respectively.
Also Formotiis and Idoun, who, despite being possible to damage with normal means, without the legendary weapons, become pretty much impossible to kill without killing half your army in the process.

Not sure about the other games, but can confirm that Shadow Dragon Medeus can be beaten (albeit less easily, which isn't saying much) without Falchion. I do agree that it'd be nice if the Omega Yato was needed to land the final blow.

 

[Darros]

I think the word "hate" gets tossed around in fan communities a bit too much. I don't think anyone or certainly many people hate(s) many of the things where these threads of "why does everyone hate x?" show up. It's more so being tired of the same stuff over again, or complaining about things that aren't perceived to be good.

On 2/14/2018 at 11:41 AM, Armagon said:

It's not that they are hated, it's that people are tired of them. A dragon is almost always the final boss, even if there isn't a reason for it. List of dragon bosses

• Julius somewhat counts since he was being possesed by Lopytr in FE4

I think at least mechanically Julius is different enough to not count.

[Armagon]

6 minutes ago, Darros said:

I think at least mechanically Julius is different enough to not count.

I mean, gameplay-wise yeah. Same for Takumi. But lore-wise, they are both under the possession of dragons. 

[MisterIceTeaPeach]

I can't identify with the moral and intentions of dragons as well as of humans, so that's why I prefer human final bosses like Ashnard. 
Deghinsea is the only exception, honestly my favorite boss in the entire series.
 

[DragonFlames]

21 hours ago, Mad-manakete said:

Not sure about the other games, but can confirm that Shadow Dragon Medeus can be beaten (albeit less easily, which isn't saying much) without Falchion. I do agree that it'd be nice if the Omega Yato was needed to land the final blow.

 

I see, thank you! I haven't played Shadow Dragon often or intensively enough to know this. I attacked him with a combo of Tiki and Marth, whom I assumed were the only ones really able to damage him.

17 hours ago, 豊聡耳 神子 said:

I can't identify with the moral and intentions of dragons as well as of humans, so that's why I prefer human final bosses like Ashnard. 
Deghinsea is the only exception, honestly my favorite boss in the entire series.
 

Same here. He is imposing, has a great motive for standing against you (THIS is what the Camus archetype should be) and has one of the most beautiful battle themes in the franchise.

[The Roger The Paladin]

6 minutes ago, DragonFlames said:

I see, thank you! I haven't played Shadow Dragon often or intensively enough to know this. I attacked him with a combo of Tiki and Marth, whom I assumed were the only ones really able to damage him.

Same here. He is imposing, has a great motive for standing against you (THIS is what the Camus archetype should be) and has one of the most beautiful battle themes in the franchise.

It's alright. I wouldn't have known either if it weren't for a video where I saw Frey one round the guy. That said, I'm not 100% sure, but I think Medeus may require Falchion to land the final blow in New Mystery. Not sure. I know anyone can wear him down though, so I could be wrong. Seeing as I'm playing through the game now, I'll have to check.

[DragonFlames]

4 minutes ago, Mad-manakete said:

It's alright. I wouldn't have known either if it weren't for a video where I saw Frey one round the guy. That said, I'm not 100% sure, but I think Medeus may require Falchion to land the final blow in New Mystery. Not sure. I know anyone can wear him down though, so I could be wrong. Seeing as I'm playing through the game now, I'll have to check.

I think it just makes it easier again if they didn't pull a Duma. I don't really know, though, so don't quote me on that.
But what I do know is that Marth needs at least ~27 speed if he wants to survive a round of combat against him. 

[The Roger The Paladin]

3 minutes ago, DragonFlames said:

I think it just makes it easier again if they didn't pull a Duma. I don't really know, though, so don't quote me on that.
But what I do know is that Marth needs at least ~27 speed if he wants to survive a round of combat against him. 

Honestly though, I did love the Duma battle. Both in the original Gaiden and Shadows of Valentia. The special animation to end the fight. The fact it had to be Alm to kill him (albeit they let Amiibo characters do the job in SOV). The fact you couldn't just warp Alm in and cheese the battle by one rounding the boss like FE1 and it's remake. Also, the music in SOV's version was great. Still not sure about making Duma a dragon though. Second best final chapter after Path of Radiance in my opinion. But yeah, I think perhaps part of the reason they do make final bosses not require the lord most of the time is in case they get rng screwed and have insufficient stats. Imagine how pissed you'd be if you worked through the game and the only character who could beat the final boss got screwed in stats so bad that he/she couldn't win.

[DragonFlames]

40 minutes ago, Mad-manakete said:

Honestly though, I did love the Duma battle. Both in the original Gaiden and Shadows of Valentia. The special animation to end the fight. The fact it had to be Alm to kill him (albeit they let Amiibo characters do the job in SOV). The fact you couldn't just warp Alm in and cheese the battle by one rounding the boss like FE1 and it's remake. Also, the music in SOV's version was great. Still not sure about making Duma a dragon though. Second best final chapter after Path of Radiance in my opinion. But yeah, I think perhaps part of the reason they do make final bosses not require the lord most of the time is in case they get rng screwed and have insufficient stats. Imagine how pissed you'd be if you worked through the game and the only character who could beat the final boss got screwed in stats so bad that he/she couldn't win.

Oh yeah, I definitely agree. I LOVED Echoes' final map (haven't played OG Gaiden, so I can't judge).

Bolded: Yeah, I can see that. It's a good enough justification, at least as I WOULD be pretty pissed off if that happened, so I am glad that you have some kind of alternative. Though considering said alternative might make half of the game a moot point (case in point, Revelation), you may as well take the risk, have multiple people able to kill him, but make it so only legendary weapons can do so reliably, like in the GBA games, or at least make it clear that beating the final boss in gameplay was just to weaken him enough so that (insert name of character capable of killing final boss here) can kill him in the cutscene afterwards, like what Awakening did and what Fates, in my opinion, should have done.

EDIT: In conclusion, I think if you have an alternative to kill the final boss, it should at least be justified by the story. Else you have the hilarity of the great Dragon God Anankos losing his life to a little village girl with an inhumanly strong bow arm. Or the evil king of Nohr getting offed by the retainer of the enemy kingdom's youngest princess wielding a plain old Silver Katana.

Edited February 20, 2018 by DragonFlames

[The Roger The Paladin]

32 minutes ago, DragonFlames said:

Oh yeah, I definitely agree. I LOVED Echoes' final map (haven't played OG Gaiden, so I can't judge).

Bolded: Yeah, I can see that. It's a good enough justification, at least as I WOULD be pretty pissed off if that happened, so I am glad that you have some kind of alternative. Though considering said alternative might make half of the game a moot point (case in point, Revelation), you may as well take the risk, have multiple people able to kill him, but make it so only legendary weapons can do so reliably, like in the GBA games, or at least make it clear that beating the final boss in gameplay was just to weaken him enough so that (insert name of character capable of killing final boss here) can kill him in the cutscene afterwards, like what Awakening did and what Fates, in my opinion, should have done.

EDIT: In conclusion, I think if you have an alternative to kill the final boss, it should at least be justified by the story. Else you have the hilarity of the great Dragon God Anankos losing his life to a little village girl with an inhumanly strong bow arm. Or the evil king of Nohr getting offed by the retainer of the enemy kingdom's youngest princess wielding a plain old Silver Katana.

Pretty much a perfect summary of how to handle the matter. An alternative to outright locking you to the one character that makes sense in the context of the story that was built up would be ideal, and given these days cutscenes are part and parcel of the games, having the final blow go to the character it's supposed to makes sense. Or you could even go down a similar route to what they did to have Dheginsea in Radiant Dawn (having the weapons you're using blessed so they're capable of hurting the boss). That way you could at least justify "well, the silver sword had been a plain old silver sword, but it got enchanted/blessed so that it could do that". I guess the take-away is there were a few ways Revelations could have done that better.

[DragonFlames]

3 minutes ago, Mad-manakete said:

Pretty much a perfect summary of how to handle the matter. An alternative to outright locking you to the one character that makes sense in the context of the story that was built up would be ideal, and given these days cutscenes are part and parcel of the games, having the final blow go to the character it's supposed to makes sense. Or you could even go down a similar route to what they did to have Dheginsea in Radiant Dawn (having the weapons you're using blessed so they're capable of hurting the boss). That way you could at least justify "well, the silver sword had been a plain old silver sword, but it got enchanted/blessed so that it could do that". I guess the take-away is there were a few ways Revelations could have done that better.

And this is exactly why I loved Radiant Dawn's finale so much (even though Ike absolutely needed to land the final blow on Ashera).