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What's the whole deal with hate for sword-wielding lords?


Corrobin
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2 hours ago, Jotari said:

What do you mean actually making them a good unit? Aside from Roy and Eliwood, what protagonist in the series isn't above average as a unit? Most of them can steamroll the game.

Marth gets no promotion; only getting the ability to level up to about level 30. Lyn is fast, but lacks power. Also, I meant it as a joke. Sorry if I wasn't clear in that regard.

2 hours ago, Emperor Hardin said:

Ike is more middle class as he leads a mercenary troop and

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Gawain

was a knight of Daein.

Ike is still a peasant. He has no land or titles to speak of, in a feudal setting. Even if being head of a mercenary troop, he is still a peasant. Also:

Spoiler

Yes; Gawain was a knight of Daein. But, I think Greil summed it up best: "That was my name, once. But I... threw it away." He lost all his titles when he fled Daein and became a fugitive, and any he may still have had simply by being Gawain, he gave up when he changed his name to Greil.

Also, my original point was just that Ike is different by not being another prince or noble's son. He's just a mercenary.

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2 hours ago, Emperor Hardin said:
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YHWC_Holmes_01.png

Though legally not a Fire Emblem, Tearring Saga has a Bow lord(pic above) and he is pretty cool.

Ike is more middle class as he leads a mercenary troop and

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Gawain

was a knight of Daein.

Corrin: Uses a sword mostly with the dragon stone being a sidearm.

Robin: Uses a sword and tomes, artwork shows him with a sword.

Kris: All artwork depicts him as an infantry sword unit.

Ephraim: I've only met one person who dislikes him.

Micaiah: Does indeed not wield a sword and I have seen some hate against her, though I like her myself.

Okay I haven't played Fates so I'll concede. Isn't reclassing an option for Corrin? The point is Robin isn't a generic sword wielding lord as he can wield both. Kris can be many different classes though. I've heard a lot of people bash Ephraim for being too perfect or not getting punished for his flaws, etc. 

3 hours ago, Interdimensional Observer said:

Corrin is a sword user. The Dragonstone is rather niche and has no bearing on Fates's plot, while the Yato is the blade of destiny, gets two upgrades per rout, and which makes Corrin more special than the Dstone does. Corrin is first and foremost a sword lord, the only reason the d-powers get emphasized at all is because IS has to find a way to make the reuse of sword for the umpteenth time unique.

Robin- yes the Tome is emphasized even in Awakening's video clips, likely thanks to Chrom and Lucina being swordies like most lords, and it being easier to depict magic combat from a first person perspective. However, Robin in Awakening starts gameplay-wise equally capable of using Swords and Magic.

Kris- Kris has no fixed class, however both pieces of official artwork show them with a sword.

Reclass? Not canonical. Otherwise Chrom could be considered not a sword lord if I made him a Sniper, or Lucina a Pegasus Knight/one of two million things. 

And it is worth noting none of these characters are disliked for their weapon choice. Ephraim has brash 99% of the time flawless perfectionism- he could use a sword and it'd make no difference on this. They could have made Corrin an Assassin Lord with the Dagger Ne Plus Ultra, and it wouldn't address most of the real issues with Corrin.

Robin is disliked? I'm not big on them myself, but I thought they were generally loved?

 

Didn't know lords like Chrom and Lucina can be reclassed. That sounds very messed up in the context of the plot and was avoided in Shadow Dragon by making it so that Marth doesn't reclass. I thought Robin was the third most disliked main character, right behind Corrin and Kris. 

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47 minutes ago, vanguard333 said:

Marth gets no promotion; only getting the ability to level up to about level 30. Lyn is fast, but lacks power. Also, I meant it as a joke. Sorry if I wasn't clear in that regard.

Ike is still a peasant. He has no land or titles to speak of, in a feudal setting. Even if being head of a mercenary troop, he is still a peasant. Also:

  Reveal hidden contents

Yes; Gawain was a knight of Daein. But, I think Greil summed it up best: "That was my name, once. But I... threw it away." He lost all his titles when he fled Daein and became a fugitive, and any he may still have had simply by being Gawain, he gave up when he changed his name to Greil.

Also, my original point was just that Ike is different by not being another prince or noble's son. He's just a mercenary.

Fair enough.

29 minutes ago, Icelerate said:

Okay I haven't played Fates so I'll concede. Isn't reclassing an option for Corrin? The point is Robin isn't a generic sword wielding lord as he can wield both. Kris can be many different classes though. I've heard a lot of people bash Ephraim for being too perfect or not getting punished for his flaws, etc. 

Yes, Corrin gets one other class tree, chosen by the player. You can indeed choose stuff like Fighter, Archer, or Armor Knight.

FESMN_Avatar_Male_02.png

While Kris can start off as many classes, Both of Kris's official artwork depict him as a mercenary with a sword, while female Kris is depicted as a Myrmidon in her lone artwork. This is ironic as Mercenary is easily Kris's worst option. 

Bs_fe11_playable_fighter_axe.pngBs_fe11_playable_knight_lance.png

Kris's best starting class is Fighter, and if the full reclass cast sets have been unlocked, Armor Knight. Fighter Kris is also very unique as Marth's starting has no axe users, the original Mystery had no axe users period, meanwhile both versions of Mystery have more then enough Mercenaries.

Ma_ds02_fighter_playable.gif

 I'm sure people would like Kris more if his official artwork depicted him as a fighter. I would anyhow.

Ma_ds02_pirate_playable.gif

Now if only we could get a second pirate.

Edited by Emperor Hardin
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9 hours ago, Corrobin said:

Lief

Leif's stats aren't amazing (unless you give him a few scrolls which is perfectly reasonable), but he has a tonne of other things that make him useful. First and formost being the fact that he doesn't suffer from fatigue and is immune to status effects. He also has a tonne of supports boosting him and has a useful prf weapon from the start. He can be a liability at the start, but put any amount of effort into building Lief and he can be just as much a power house as anyone else in Thracia.

7 hours ago, vanguard333 said:

Marth gets no promotion; only getting the ability to level up to about level 30. Lyn is fast, but lacks power. Also, I meant it as a joke. Sorry if I wasn't clear in that regard.

Ike is still a peasant. He has no land or titles to speak of, in a feudal setting. Even if being head of a mercenary troop, he is still a peasant. Also:

  Reveal hidden contents

Yes; Gawain was a knight of Daein. But, I think Greil summed it up best: "That was my name, once. But I... threw it away." He lost all his titles when he fled Daein and became a fugitive, and any he may still have had simply by being Gawain, he gave up when he changed his name to Greil.

Also, my original point was just that Ike is different by not being another prince or noble's son. He's just a mercenary.

Marth gets no promotion, but he still more than holds his own. Those lack of ten levels will only hold him back in the last few chapters. In New Mystery especially, he has really good growths and even gets psudeo promotion gains with the Shield of Seals (even though I'd still love it if he actually promoted at that moment). In fact, I hear he's outright broken in FE1, though I haven't played it myself. As for Lyn, she will crit everything, Even armoured units aren't safe from her given she can deal effective damage to them. I admit she falls off a bit in end game when the crits start to deal less damage (and the fact that her promotion can be really late doesn't help), but Lyn is still a good unit. Eliwood is average, Lyn is good, Hector is great.

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It's been said before by others, but my two cents is there's no problem with sword wielding lords. It's just that it would be nice to mix it up a bit.
Much like with final bosses. Otherwise the games become too formulaic. Also it's good to play with the archetypes. Look at how Fates threw a curveball by using ninjas instead of cavaliers for the Cain & Abel archetypes, or how Binding Blade's Gotoh archetype was a Swordmaster.
That kind of variety applied within reason (no need to throw the baby out with the bath-water) will allow the games to have a little more unique flavor.
 

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7 hours ago, Jotari said:

As for Lyn, she will crit everything, Even armoured units aren't safe from her given she can deal effective damage to them. I admit she falls off a bit in end game when the crits start to deal less damage (and the fact that her promotion can be really late doesn't help), but Lyn is still a good unit.

Assuming Lyn caps Skill unpromoted, which she falls 2 below on 20 average, and we add in the Mani Katti's 20 Crit, she'll have 30% chance of critting anything, 40 with a Killing Edge.

Problem- there is only 1 40 use MK, which you might want to save for Cavs and Knights, and anyone with C Swords can swing a KE around. Including Kent, who averages 15-16 skill unpromoted, for 2 less Crit than a capped Skl Lyn. Not a whole lot less, and Eliwood averages 14-15 Skill for a mere 3 Crit less.

On promotion, if Lyn caps Skl, which will take a minimum of 7 levels to achieve, she will have gained another 4 Crit, pretty insignificant. While Kent will if he caps Skl average 1-2 less crit.

In short, Lyn, not ever actually getting an actual +15 Crit class bonus, and factoring in how little excess Skill adds to Crit, Lyn is no more a Critical machine than pretty much anyone else not Hawkeye, Dart, Guy, Karel, or Karla (unless Lyn has A and B Crit boosting Supports and the other person doesn't have any, which would give her +20 Crit over them- except 5 out of 7 Affinities give Crit). Killers are buyable as early 19E/20H in a Secret Shop, and then buyable in 24E/26H, the Vaida chapter (and yes, without the Mine glitch is it still possible to shop on Hector Mode without anyone dying- just bait Vaida west with Hawkeye on a Mountain or the Gate).

You'd have a little better of a case if you were arguing Lyn the dodging machine, but that'd need buyable Lancereavers, which is 23E/24H. 

 

14 hours ago, Icelerate said:

Didn't know lords like Chrom and Lucina can be reclassed. That sounds very messed up in the context of the plot and was avoided in Shadow Dragon by making it so that Marth doesn't reclass.

It really isn't an issue with them. Sure if you make Chrom a Sniper the whole bit about awakening the Falchion later on is a little off, and so the Yato if you make Corrin a non-Sword using class, but it doesn't affect much. I think one of the characters most off put by reclass is Cherche, since she brings up her wyvern Minerva a lot in her supports and level up quotes, and if Cherche doesn't have her around due to being in Troubadour or Cleric, who is she talking to when she levels? 

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2 hours ago, Interdimensional Observer said:

It really isn't an issue with them. Sure if you make Chrom a Sniper the whole bit about awakening the Falchion later on is a little off, and so the Yato if you make Corrin a non-Sword using class, but it doesn't affect much. I think one of the characters most off put by reclass is Cherche, since she brings up her wyvern Minerva a lot in her supports and level up quotes, and if Cherche doesn't have her around due to being in Troubadour or Cleric, who is she talking to when she levels? 

Lucina will still out falchion in cutscenes even if she's a sniper for example.

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On February 16, 2018 at 3:58 PM, Jotari said:

Yeah, but that point becomes less relevant as the further you get into the game and strength becomes more important for dealing damage. Like, a loss of ten might isn't that big a deal when you have aproximately 40 strength. You'll still be dealing a tonne of damage on each hit. Not to mention they also have 1-2 range universally. The only thing really balancing hidden weapons is the units themselves tend to have low strength and are quite flimsy (which, I suppose, isn't really a bad idea, give the statistically worst class the statistically best weapon. The only thing that really upsets it is that you can make anyone a Dread Fighter. Of course debuffing in general is much more of a boon to enemy units than players since enemies tend to die pretty quickly. They would have worked much better in a game more like Gaiden where you have powerful, low density enemies).

Counterpoint: Dread Fighter is locked behind a paywall, and without DLC, you can only have two at most. And without effective damage, I wouldn't expect shurikens and daggers to be worldbeaters because, once again, they have pretty low might (the strongest hidden weapons are 11 might, but they have severe drawbacks, and one is limited to a class with a crap strength cap).

Edited by Levant Mir Celestia
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Really to me it's not about swords not being as strong as other weapons, bu it's more like how overused they are, and i don't think it's wrong to accept something different every now and then, like i would LOVE a mage lord looking at how little we have of those, or really even a staff wielding lord. 

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7 hours ago, Interdimensional Observer said:

Assuming Lyn caps Skill unpromoted, which she falls 2 below on 20 average, and we add in the Mani Katti's 20 Crit, she'll have 30% chance of critting anything, 40 with a Killing Edge.

Problem- there is only 1 40 use MK, which you might want to save for Cavs and Knights, and anyone with C Swords can swing a KE around. Including Kent, who averages 15-16 skill unpromoted, for 2 less Crit than a capped Skl Lyn. Not a whole lot less, and Eliwood averages 14-15 Skill for a mere 3 Crit less.

On promotion, if Lyn caps Skl, which will take a minimum of 7 levels to achieve, she will have gained another 4 Crit, pretty insignificant. While Kent will if he caps Skl average 1-2 less crit.

In short, Lyn, not ever actually getting an actual +15 Crit class bonus, and factoring in how little excess Skill adds to Crit, Lyn is no more a Critical machine than pretty much anyone else not Hawkeye, Dart, Guy, Karel, or Karla (unless Lyn has A and B Crit boosting Supports and the other person doesn't have any, which would give her +20 Crit over them- except 5 out of 7 Affinities give Crit). Killers are buyable as early 19E/20H in a Secret Shop, and then buyable in 24E/26H, the Vaida chapter (and yes, without the Mine glitch is it still possible to shop on Hector Mode without anyone dying- just bait Vaida west with Hawkeye on a Mountain or the Gate).

You'd have a little better of a case if you were arguing Lyn the dodging machine, but that'd need buyable Lancereavers, which is 23E/24H. 

 

It really isn't an issue with them. Sure if you make Chrom a Sniper the whole bit about awakening the Falchion later on is a little off, and so the Yato if you make Corrin a non-Sword using class, but it doesn't affect much. I think one of the characters most off put by reclass is Cherche, since she brings up her wyvern Minerva a lot in her supports and level up quotes, and if Cherche doesn't have her around due to being in Troubadour or Cleric, who is she talking to when she levels? 

Won't argue there. I remember Lyn critting a lot, but it may just be weapon favouritism on  my part. Regardless, I don't think many would class her as a particularly bad unit.

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7 minutes ago, Jotari said:

Won't argue there. I remember Lyn critting a lot, but it may just be weapon favouritism on  my part. Regardless, I don't think many would class her as a particularly bad unit.

Honestly speaking, no Lord ever is the worst in their game. Eliwood can proudly say he's better than Wil, and Rebecca, and Karla, and maybe Dorcas. (You know, I wonder how much better Eliwood would be as Cavalier Lord?)

Roy? Well aren't the Western Isles axe-heavy? He could contribute more than Bors the Chaste or Gwendolyn the former mascot of Elibe's fast food chain ever will. I don't think any lord is worse than lower mid on a hypothetical tier list. Although Sigurd would probably be in his own god tier on an FE4 one.

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6 minutes ago, Interdimensional Observer said:

Honestly speaking, no Lord ever is the worst in their game. Eliwood can proudly say he's better than Wil, and Rebecca, and Karla, and maybe Dorcas. (You know, I wonder how much better Eliwood would be as Cavalier Lord?)

Roy? Well aren't the Western Isles axe-heavy? He could contribute more than Bors the Chaste or Gwendolyn the former mascot of Elibe's fast food chain ever will. I don't think any lord is worse than lower mid on a hypothetical tier list. Although Sigurd would probably be in his own god tier on an FE4 one.

Yeah, and as much guff as Roy gets, the Sword of Seals makes him absolutely amazing in those last few chapters when he finally promotes. That's what I was saying from the start, someone (jokingly) said that Ike was different for actually being a decent unit. Most lords in the series range from slightly above average to absolutely amazing.

And Sigurd wouldn't be alone on that god Tier, Seliph would be right up there with him (weaker at Level 1 but slightly better than Sigurd in everything by level 30).

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12 hours ago, Jotari said:

And Sigurd wouldn't be alone on that god Tier, Seliph would be right up there with him (weaker at Level 1 but slightly better than Sigurd in everything by level 30).

I haven't played FE4 yet, but I find ranking Seliph to be a little uneasy for me. I mean if you breed a good 2nd Gen, say (LnxEr, AzxT, LxxA, BxL, MxEd, ChxB, ClxS) and then add in Ares and Shannan and Leif, it seems Seliph has much stronger competition. Who is Sigurd's? Lex and who else? Because Seliph has greater competition, does that mean he is inferior?

And as for his start, how much inheritance to assume? Just the 50k SS and one of the Knight or Leg Ring? Both rings, the 50SS, and a magic sword? All of those things plus the Paragon Ring and the other stat rings and the Brave Sword?

 

12 hours ago, Jotari said:

That's what I was saying from the start, someone (jokingly) said that Ike was different for actually being a decent unit

And if we want to talk PoR Ike, I present irony:

Spoiler

FE1 Marth:

Name Class Lv HP Str Skl Wlv Spd Lck Def Res Mov
Marth Lord 1 18 5 3 5 7 7 7 0

7

 

Roy:

Name Class Lv HP S/M Skl Spd Lck Def Res Con Mov Affin Weapon ranks
Roy Lord 1 18 5 5 7 7 5 0 6 5 Fire Sword D

 

Eliwood:

Name Class Lv HP S/M Skl Spd Lck Def Res Con Mov Affin Weapon ranks
Eliwood Lord 1 18 5 5 7 7 5 0 7 5 AffinAnima Sword C

 

PoR Ike:

Name Class Lv HP Str Mag Skl Spd Lck Def Res Mov Con Wt
Ike Ranger 1 19 5 1 6 7 6 5 0 6 9 9

To carry on the discussion from another topic, Ike is of common origins for sure.

Edited by Interdimensional Observer
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16 hours ago, Interdimensional Observer said:

Honestly speaking, no Lord ever is the worst in their game. Eliwood can proudly say he's better than Wil, and Rebecca, and Karla, and maybe Dorcas. (You know, I wonder how much better Eliwood would be as Cavalier Lord?)

Roy? Well aren't the Western Isles axe-heavy? He could contribute more than Bors the Chaste or Gwendolyn the former mascot of Elibe's fast food chain ever will. I don't think any lord is worse than lower mid on a hypothetical tier list. Although Sigurd would probably be in his own god tier on an FE4 one.

Lief and Micaiah.

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On 2/18/2018 at 7:56 PM, Corrobin said:

Lief and Micaiah.

Leif certainly isn't.

He's not an amazing unit but his actual potential isn't bad, he's got some pretty useful tools with all the crazy swords in this game (especially the light brand, though the Blaggi Sword is also good). No a great unit, but to say Leif's the worst is underestimating him imo.

I'd say something on Michiah if I'd ever played RD.

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On 2/18/2018 at 12:56 PM, Corrobin said:

Lief and Micaiah.

I dunno about Leif, but I wouldn't say Micaiah can be considered the worst when you have the likes of Meg, Lyre, and Lethe around...

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