Raven Posted February 15, 2018 Author Share Posted February 15, 2018 (edited) 13 minutes ago, Anacybele said: What do you mean I quoted you out of context? Do you mean I should've quoted your entire post instead of just parts of it? If so, I didn't need to do that to convey my point. It didn't mean I was ignoring some things you said. Anyway, let me point you to an episode of Law & Order. Yes, this show is fake, not real life. But some things in it would make sense in real life too. In this particular episode, the detectives discovered evidence that someone was planning to shoot up a school and kill literally hundreds. Very strong evidence, including threats, the would-be attacker's blog, photos of weapons this guy posted, and more. The guy tried to carry out this attack, but he was apprehended before anyone could get seriously hurt. By Captain America's logic there, the cops should've waited until after people died to arrest and lock the guy up. How does that make sense? The detectives even pointed this out to people who wouldn't believe their warnings. "Would you rather wait until after this guy kills a lot of people?" About this: You should realise it's simply a TV show. If every upcoming mass shooting were to have such obvious trails left behind, you can bet they would be tracked and apprehended in real life. There are more than likely thousands of incidents every year where people are apprehended and stopped from carrying out such crimes before they happen, but they never make it into the news because, well, who cares if nobody dies? You can bet that the vast majority of successful mass killings were well calculated and thought out, leaving little to no trail for anyone to suspect a thing. And this is because such heavy firearms are so easy to get a hold of. It's moronic. Edited February 15, 2018 by Raven Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Anacybele Posted February 15, 2018 Share Posted February 15, 2018 1 minute ago, Raven said: About this: You should realise it's simply a TV show. If every upcoming mass shooting were to have such obvious trails left behind, you can bet they would be tracked and apprehended in real life. There are more than likely thousands of incidents every year where people are apprehended and stopped from carrying out such crimes before they happen, but they never make it into the news because, well, who cares if nobody dies? You can bet that the vast majority of successful mass killings were well calculated and thought out, leaving little to no trail for anyone to suspect a thing. And this is because such heavy firearms are so easy to get a hold of. It's moronic. Someone just pointed out though, that the FBI got a tip about someone and did nothing about it. That's just not right. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Raven Posted February 15, 2018 Author Share Posted February 15, 2018 Just now, Anacybele said: Someone just pointed out though, that the FBI got a tip about someone and did nothing about it. That's just not right. Yes, they were tipped off about the guy months ago, apparently. But hey, he probably didn't have any mental illnesses (that anybody knew of) so he definitely wouldn't have shot up a school with this rifle he'd so easily obtained. Definitely not. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Anacybele Posted February 15, 2018 Share Posted February 15, 2018 3 minutes ago, Raven said: Yes, they were tipped off about the guy months ago, apparently. But hey, he probably didn't have any mental illnesses (that anybody knew of) so he definitely wouldn't have shot up a school with this rifle he'd so easily obtained. Definitely not. They still should've investigated at least. But it doesn't seem like they did even that. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Raven Posted February 15, 2018 Author Share Posted February 15, 2018 1 minute ago, Anacybele said: They still should've investigated at least. But it doesn't seem like they did even that. I agree. It's nice to know that US law enforcement has such blind faith in its well-armed population. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Darros Posted February 16, 2018 Share Posted February 16, 2018 While we're on the subject of mental illness, it's probably a bad idea to just tag everyone with mental illness as dangerous and wild and unpredictable. That is a huge stigma boosting device which represents an extremely small subset of people. Society and governments already address this issue poorly and just flagging mentally ill people as dangerous is more than likely to be done very poorly and would case more harm than good. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NPR Posted February 16, 2018 Share Posted February 16, 2018 5 minutes ago, Darros said: While we're on the subject of mental illness, it's probably a bad idea to just tag everyone with mental illness as dangerous and wild and unpredictable. That is a huge stigma boosting device which represents an extremely small subset of people. Society and governments already address this issue poorly and just flagging mentally ill people as dangerous is more than likely to be done very poorly and would case more harm than good. Agreed. The stigma about mental illness and probably the fear of being diagnosed is hurting a lot of efforts to improve mental health in the country. Also, with what I was talking about a bit ago, we should probably also note that when it comes to suicide and depression nobody is really 'at fault' in those situations. People with mental illnesses need help and support. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Anacybele Posted February 16, 2018 Share Posted February 16, 2018 29 minutes ago, NPR said: Agreed. The stigma about mental illness and probably the fear of being diagnosed is hurting a lot of efforts to improve mental health in the country. Also, with what I was talking about a bit ago, we should probably also note that when it comes to suicide and depression nobody is really 'at fault' in those situations. People with mental illnesses need help and support. No. I would say people who bullied someone to the point of suicide are at fault. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SuperIb Posted February 16, 2018 Share Posted February 16, 2018 (edited) You know what's really fun to think about? How I plan on getting a teaching license to teach English in high schools in the coming few years, and then keeping track of all the school shooting we've had in the US just this year~! I honestly don't understand how nothing has really been done or changed to stop this. I keep looking at the gun-related homicide rates of other developed countries and compare them to the US and just, wow. It's almost feels as if... you know, other countries have done something right with their gun control... but who knows, maybe I'm just imagining things. Obviously there are other ways to commit crimes, but those other ways are either less effective, easier to get caught or both. Seriously though, I am mildly scared about actually getting into teaching when more and more shootings have been cropping up at schools lately. It's just... not great to feel like you won't even be safe at an education facility, which applies to both teachers and students. Also I resent the very idea that some people propose arming teachers and staff with guns. That's even more terrifying and sad to think that the "solution" to school shootings is to expect more by preparing adults to fire back. Honestly disgusting. I would never work at a school that armed teachers. No way in hell. There's no way I could ever feel safe or teach without the fear that something bad could happen. Edited February 16, 2018 by SuperIb Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gebby Posted February 16, 2018 Share Posted February 16, 2018 Personally, I think we should arm teachers. Annual background checks, monthly appointments with therapists to ensure mental well-being, the gun must be concealed. Stuff like that, to keep it out of mind, but there in case of emergency. 10 hours ago, TheGoodHoms said: My plan would be to ban civilians from carrying automatic weapons while other less lethal weapons would be unaffected, you could still own hunting rifles or a handgun, but we get rid of assault weapons that are all too often used in these mass shootings. We can't carry automatic weapons around. Ownership of them is already tightly regulated. In fact, I don't believe it's legal to carry around a semi-auto rifle in most places. What we're capable of owning are civilized variants of weapons, such as the PS90, a civilian P90. (Not trying to start a fight, just informing) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SuperIb Posted February 16, 2018 Share Posted February 16, 2018 (edited) 20 minutes ago, Gebby said: Personally, I think we should arm teachers. Annual background checks, monthly appointments with therapists to ensure mental well-being, the gun must be concealed. Stuff like that, to keep it out of mind, but there in case of emergency. Who would even pay for that? Most budgets for public schools aren't even that great in the first place, and that could lead to salary or staff cuts if the school is expected to pay. And if the idea is that the teachers and staff would have to pay for that, then yeah, no thanks. Not to mention the fact that the very idea of teachers being armed means that there's now another way for students to get access to a weapon. Sure, it'd be secured, but if the teacher can access it, that means the student can as well, even if they'd have to over-power the teacher to reach it. No offense but, there's no way I'd ever be okay with that idea. I'd honestly rather move to another country than have to work/attend a school where the staff are armed. Also, I'd like to point out that it's not even a solution to the overarching problem. A solution would be finding a way to prevent further shootings from occurring, not to prepare for and to expect more. I'm sorry if I sound like an ass towards you, I truly apologize for that, but this kind of idea is extremely unsettling for me. Edited February 16, 2018 by SuperIb Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sorenwind Posted February 16, 2018 Share Posted February 16, 2018 2 minutes ago, SuperIb said: Who would even pay for that? Most budgets for public schools aren't even that great in the first place, and that could lead to salary or staff cuts if the school is expected to pay. And if the idea is that the teachers and staff would have to pay for that, then yeah, no thanks. Not to mention the fact that the very idea of teachers being armed means that there's now another way for students to get access to a weapon. Sure, it'd be secured, but if the teacher can access it, that means the student can as well, even if they'd have to over-power the teacher to reach it. No offense but, there's no way I'd ever be okay with that idea. I'd honestly rather move to another country than have to work/attend a school where the staff are armed. Also, I'd like to point out that it's not even a solution to the overarching problem. A solution would be finding a way to prevent further shootings from occurring, not to prepare for and to expect more. Sorry if I sound like an ass towards you, I apologize for that, but this kind of idea is extremely unsettling for me. I agree with Superlb here. Plus you have all this evidence of literally any other modern 1st world country that, instead of arming everyone with guns, has taken them away from everyone and this basically eliminates mass shootings in the country. Why would you even try something as hair brained as allowing more guns into people's hands when there is already a tried and true method out there. Not to mention the fact that someone in this thread talked about how kids could easily pick up these guns and without understanding it, kill someone or themselves. No absolutely not. This would be an accident waiting to happen. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sorenwind Posted February 16, 2018 Share Posted February 16, 2018 3 hours ago, Anacybele said: And you can say "the numbers are not on my side" about other things I've said, but I still don't agree with you. And I just realized, no one acknowledged that I pointed out Chicago as proof. They still have some of the strictest gun laws, but one of the highest gun crime rates in this country. And this I can source you, if you want. I don't see your argument here. Are you saying that just because of strict gun laws in Chicago not resulting in any fewer gun related incidents that the whole idea of having strict gun laws won't work? That makes no sense. It doesn't matter if one state has strict laws if someone can very easily travel out of state and get a gun. It also makes no sense if there are strict gun laws but there are as many guns in the US after those strict laws are put in place as before because as you said it won't stop someone from getting a gun if they want to in spite of those laws. No the solution here is to have strict laws, licensing and also to remove military grade weapons from civilian hands and destroying them. If they don't exist, no one can use them and 500 fewer people will die each year. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NPR Posted February 16, 2018 Share Posted February 16, 2018 @Anacybele Please read this. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Anacybele Posted February 16, 2018 Share Posted February 16, 2018 (edited) 34 minutes ago, NPR said: @Anacybele Please read this. I don't really agree with what that says, and I don't care anyway, I will always blame the bitch that mentally abused my brother for his death. Edited February 16, 2018 by Anacybele Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Johann Posted February 16, 2018 Share Posted February 16, 2018 7 hours ago, Anacybele said: Those are fine, but I thought we already had those laws in place. If not, then they should be, I will admit that. But I don't think we need anymore than that. They're not, sadly. The John Oliver video I posted gets into why, I highly recommend it if you can spare a good 13 minutes or so. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
eclipse Posted February 16, 2018 Share Posted February 16, 2018 (edited) . . .not this shit again. . . .even if it's relevant, again! Off to Serious Discussion with you. EDIT: And if there's enough of these shootings, I pin this topic. May that never happen. Edited February 16, 2018 by eclipse Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Michelaar Posted February 16, 2018 Share Posted February 16, 2018 I would also like to say that more than 80% of the guns in mass shootings are obtained legally. http://www.msnbc.com/msnbc/most-guns-mass-shootings-obtained-legally Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Excellen Browning Posted February 16, 2018 Share Posted February 16, 2018 (edited) Edited February 16, 2018 by Excellen Browning Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Shoblongoo Posted February 16, 2018 Share Posted February 16, 2018 (edited) 3 hours ago, Excellen Browning said: Oh just rename "Guns" to "Assault Reefer." They'll throw you in jail for mere possession + tack on an extra two years for intent to sell; god-have-mercy-on-your-soul if you bring one into a school. Edited February 16, 2018 by Shoblongoo Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Raven Posted February 16, 2018 Author Share Posted February 16, 2018 If it's one thing I've noticed, it's that this forum and its memberbase are not nearly as pro-gun as when gun control came up in a topic many years ago. I'd like to think that this is also a reflection of how the general US populace is reacting. It's just sad that it's taken years and hundreds of deaths to get to this point where more people are thinking, "we should probably try to do something about this." Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Excellen Browning Posted February 16, 2018 Share Posted February 16, 2018 1 hour ago, Raven said: If it's one thing I've noticed, it's that this forum and its memberbase are not nearly as pro-gun as when gun control came up in a topic many years ago. I'd like to think that this is also a reflection of how the general US populace is reacting. It's just sad that it's taken years and hundreds of deaths to get to this point where more people are thinking, "we should probably try to do something about this." Meh. In all seriousness, I doubt something is going to happen. Sure there's some more folks saying "maybe we should put some limits on gun ownership etc.", but republicans gonna republican and after Sandy Hook, the chance to actually do something has passed. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Johann Posted February 16, 2018 Share Posted February 16, 2018 19 hours ago, Anacybele said: Anyway, let me point you to an episode of Law & Order. Yes, this show is fake, not real life. But some things in it would make sense in real life too. In this particular episode, the detectives discovered evidence that someone was planning to shoot up a school and kill literally hundreds. Very strong evidence, including threats, the would-be attacker's blog, photos of weapons this guy posted, and more. The guy tried to carry out this attack, but he was apprehended before anyone could get seriously hurt. By Captain America's logic there, the cops should've waited until after people died to arrest and lock the guy up. How does that make sense? The detectives even pointed this out to people who wouldn't believe their warnings. "Would you rather wait until after this guy kills a lot of people?" Just to be clear, a person who prepares to the point of owning weapons and making public threats (including internet posts/comments) can be tried for attempted murder. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Anacybele Posted February 16, 2018 Share Posted February 16, 2018 4 minutes ago, Johann said: Just to be clear, a person who prepares to the point of owning weapons and making public threats (including internet posts/comments) can be tried for attempted murder. Alright, that's good then. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Shoblongoo Posted February 16, 2018 Share Posted February 16, 2018 (edited) 28 minutes ago, Johann said: Just to be clear, a person who prepares to the point of owning weapons and making public threats (including internet posts/comments) can be tried for attempted murder. They could be charged with making terroristic threats and with possession of a deadly weapon for an unlawful purpose. But no; to be charged with attempted murder, you must actually attempt to perform the overt act (and do so incompletely or unsuccessfully). Mere issuance of threats and possession of a weapon will not suffice. So in the scenario Ana outlined. The reason they would be able to charge the suspect with attempted murder is because they DIDN'T immediately arrest him, just based on threats and ownership of the weapon. They caught him as he was actually attempting to carry out the attack. (and even then: I think a good defense attorney would be able to argue that it isn't attempted murder, if they got him before he actually showed up in the school with the gun in his hands. Plead it down to a lesser weapons offense.) 24 minutes ago, Anacybele said: Anyway, let me point you to an episode of Law & Order. Yes, this show is fake, not real life. But some things in it would make sense in real life too. In this particular episode, the detectives discovered evidence that someone was planning to shoot up a school and kill literally hundreds. Very strong evidence, including threats, the would-be attacker's blog, photos of weapons this guy posted, and more. The guy tried to carry out this attack, but he was apprehended before anyone could get seriously hurt. By Captain America's logic there, the cops should've waited until after people died to arrest and lock the guy up. How does that make sense? The detectives even pointed this out to people who wouldn't believe their warnings. "Would you rather wait until after this guy kills a lot of people?" Please do not hesitate to ask me if you have any questions about criminal procedure. I promise--you will get better answers then from watching Law & Order. [PRO-TIP]: almost none of what you see on that show makes sense in real life. Its murder-mystery fantasy and made-for-TV drama. Law & Order portrays the criminal justice system about as truly and accurately as Fire Emblem portrays medieval warfare. Edited February 16, 2018 by Shoblongoo Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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