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General "mass killings" thread

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On 3/15/2019 at 3:57 AM, Slumber said:

There's a manifesto(Of course there is).

Surprise surprise, turns out this was an attack inspired by Trump and fueled by far right echo chambers on the chans.

He was also inspired by Spyro the Dragon, as per the manifesto. While he was undoubtedly lurking in the darker corners of the internet and radicalized there, his "manifesto" is absolutely soaked in memery and should not really be taken at face value.

Not everything has to be about the election of Donald Trump, and indeed I tend to think that this is one of those things that very much isn't.

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he did write about his genuine feelings about pledging allegiance to white nationalism, nonsense about white genocide, and the desire for an ethnostate, though.

he just also put in ironic shitposting about things like how candace owens is too extreme - but granted, I think it's a bit of a stretch to call trump or anyone else blameful

i was hoping for a little more of a harsh response from trump, honestly, but it was really tepid what he said on the event. i would very much like shitstain to know that his heroes think he's a fucking dumbass. but that's what I get for expecting things from trump.

Edited by Tryhard

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1 hour ago, Duff Ostrich said:

He was also inspired by Spyro the Dragon, as per the manifesto. While he was undoubtedly lurking in the darker corners of the internet and radicalized there, his "manifesto" is absolutely soaked in memery and should not really be taken at face value.

Not everything has to be about the election of Donald Trump, and indeed I tend to think that this is one of those things that very much isn't.

In that case he was being sarcastic though,

75EG9dq.jpg

Now, others are arguing that he was being sarcastic when it came to Candace Owens to defend her but that defense falls flat when that idiot posts shit like this because the fact is, this idiot speaks to White Nationalists with that kind of language and when you have people out there "representing" something like conservatism spewing language from an extreme ideology, you're unwittingly welcoming extremists and making yourself susceptible to becoming a useful idiot to advance their cause

On the subject of Trump, the man has a senior adviser (Stephen Miller who may as well be a white nationalist) guiding his policy on immigration to treat non-whites as "invaders", has commented that he wants immigration from white countries (Norway for example) and has pushed for the Muslim ban. All of this speaks to the white nationalist ideology and it's why they see him as their guy and Trump does have a history of encouraging violence. This shooting is just a reminder that in his rallies, Trump has done and said things that fall under the term stochastic terrorism.

To White Nationalists, Donald Trump's election is a sign of hope for their ideology, that they have a chance to get people on their side and hope for a civil war against the Jews and non-whites.

Edited by Dr. Tarrasque

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2 hours ago, Dr. Tarrasque said:

In that case he was being sarcastic though,

75EG9dq.jpg

Now, others are arguing that he was being sarcastic when it came to Candace Owens to defend her but that defense falls flat when that idiot posts shit like this because the fact is, this idiot speaks to White Nationalists with that kind of language and when you have people out there "representing" something like conservatism spewing language from an extreme ideology, you're unwittingly welcoming extremists and making yourself susceptible to becoming a useful idiot to advance their cause

On the subject of Trump, the man has a senior adviser (Stephen Miller who may as well be a white nationalist) guiding his policy on immigration to treat non-whites as "invaders", has commented that he wants immigration from white countries (Norway for example) and has pushed for the Muslim ban. All of this speaks to the white nationalist ideology and it's why they see him as their guy and Trump does have a history of encouraging violence. This shooting is just a reminder that in his rallies, Trump has done and said things that fall under the term stochastic terrorism.

To White Nationalists, Donald Trump's election is a sign of hope for their ideology, that they have a chance to get people on their side and hope for a civil war against the Jews and non-whites.

It is not obvious to me that Candace Owens is speaking white nationalist code by referencing declining birth rates among native Frenchmen. More than just white nationalists have a vested interest in whether or not the place in which they live becomes a Muslim majority country. Now, I don't know where Ms. Owens gets her data, but The Guardian referenced a report over a year ago that suggested France would have somewhere between 12.7% to 18% Muslim population by 2050. Considering the stridently secular nature of French society, this would be a considerable change, to say the least. After all, there has already been a considerable change. This matters to people, and for perfectly rational reasons.

https://www.theguardian.com/world/2017/nov/29/muslim-population-in-europe-could-more-than-double

Donald Trump has never said that he "wants immigration from white countries" or that he is pursuing policies on immigration that "treat non-whites as invaders", and these things are certainly not apparent in his actions, with or without a hypothetical three month ban on immigration from seven Muslim majority countries. Considering how much the man talks, we have more than enough material to limit ourselves to things he actually says (and does, or tries to do) and not needlessly extrapolate allegedly coded language from his 50 word vocabulary. And if we're going to label the performance at his election rallies "stochastic terrorism", then I fear that we may lose all perspective. Part of our problem is we look at people with whom we disagree and assume the worst of intentions. When this happens it is easy to consider the possibility that they are bad actors and trying to hide their true intentions from you, when the reality is that most people on either the right or the left speak frankly about what it is that they want. Now I can't really guess as to what Donald Trump truly believes, though if I had to guess I'd go with money and sex, in that order. But he says what he professes to believe in very plain English, and it is for these reasons that he has political power.

There are two points that I think are worth making here. First, that Donald Trump does not exist outside the mainstream of American politics. He is a populist figure for sure, but not a white nationalist of any description. And neither, barring the smallest fraction of exceptions, are his supporters. Second, to the extent that white nationalism exists it acts independently of Donald Trump. This latest shooting, performed by an Australian in New Zealand, cites Donald Trump in mostly incoherent fashion, alongside the likes of Candace Owens and Spyro the Dragon. This was a man up to his elbows in internet culture, to the point that he shouted "Subscribe to PewDiePie" as he opened fire, and has since flashed an "okay" hand sign (a fake white nationalist gesture, meant as a joke) in front of cameras following his arrest. This tells us nothing about Felix Kjellberg, or any of the other things the shooter referenced. It does however reveal to us something of his intent, which is to "troll" an international audience in the most horrific way imaginable. I thought that The Atlantic made a good case for this, if you're interested: https://www.theatlantic.com/technology/archive/2019/03/the-shooters-manifesto-was-designed-to-troll/585058/

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1 hour ago, Duff Ostrich said:

This latest shooting, performed by an Australian in New Zealand, cites Donald Trump in mostly incoherent fashion, alongside the likes of Candace Owens and Spyro the Dragon. This was a man up to his elbows in internet culture, to the point that he shouted "Subscribe to PewDiePie" as he opened fire, and has since flashed an "okay" hand sign (a fake white nationalist gesture, meant as a joke) in front of cameras following his arrest. This tells us nothing about Felix Kjellberg, or any of the other things the shooter referenced. It does however reveal to us something of his intent, which is to "troll" an international audience in the most horrific way imaginable. I thought that The Atlantic made a good case for this, if you're interested: https://www.theatlantic.com/technology/archive/2019/03/the-shooters-manifesto-was-designed-to-troll/585058/

You don't kill 50 people just to meme or troll, especially if you are specifically targeting Muslims. The majority of his manifesto (as in 75% or more) details very real white nationalist talking points - they are also not original. His reference to Trump was matter-of-fact compared to those others. He wrote:

Were/are you a supporter of Donald Trump?
As a symbol of renewed white identity and common purpose? Sure. As a policy maker and leader? Dear god no.

 

I don't personally feel like going down the rabbit hole that Trump is any way responsible for this particular event, but I think that's fairly obvious that he saw him as a white identity figure that he supports.

The rest of it was either him thinking he was Nostradamus and that he would predict events that would happen (let me know when that european ethnostate is formed), or him just being a shit-stirrer. If you read it, you know that he is obviously a delusional moron in the same way the writings of Elliot Rodger or a jihadist would read. The media will of course eat this up, but it is not a genius move to write something to aggravate after you have just committed mass murder. Once again, the real reason is that he pledged allegiance to white nationalism.

So I'm not with The Atlantic's take on this.

Edited by Tryhard

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12 minutes ago, Duff Ostrich said:

It is not obvious to me that Candace Owens is speaking white nationalist code by referencing declining birth rates among native Frenchmen. More than just white nationalists have a vested interest in whether or not the place in which they live becomes a Muslim majority country.

It's probably not obvious to people unfamiliar with White Nationalist ideology but it pretty much is code language to them as the declining birth rates of white people is one of primary arguments they use to rally people to their side, even those that aren't as extreme as they are. In politics, they generally look to get in via the conservative side and Candace Owens is just some clown who got elevated to where she is because she's willing to be a token randomly spouting right-wing talking points so recklessly for the purpose of appealing to as many right-wing people as possible that even conservatives in the organization she's in have called for her to be removed due to her recent comments on Hitler

Whenever someone talks like that Owens tweet or make any allusion to diversity being the end of white people, they see vindication and someone they can bring to their extremes... unless that person is non-white, in which case they'll say things like "I like what he/she says but he/she's still a filthy x and can never be one of us". The other idea that's central to them is that the Jews are to blame for everything and they control all media.

43 minutes ago, Duff Ostrich said:

Now, I don't know where Ms. Owens gets her data,

Out of her ass. There are people that aren't interested in serious conversation and Owens is one of them. She's a prime example of tokenism and is just where she is to try to get more people to vote Republican. Her organization is literally meant to get younger people on the Republican side but the data shows that the majority of their audience (90%+) are just the same demographics that already vote Republican.

48 minutes ago, Duff Ostrich said:

Donald Trump has never said that he "wants immigration from white countries" or that he is pursuing policies on immigration that "treat non-whites as invaders", and these things are certainly not apparent in his actions, with or without a hypothetical three month ban on immigration from seven Muslim majority countries.

There was a time during immigration talks where he complained about immigrants from African "shithole" countries and specifically said "we should have more people from Norway". He's pushing policy that is specifically targeting non-whites such as the border wall and only there even when data has shown more illegal immigration cases from the north, the Muslim bans that all Muslim countries except for the ones he has business in. Yesterday not too long after commenting on the NZ shooting, he peddled back onto pushing for the wall referring to people coming in as an invasion.

1 hour ago, Duff Ostrich said:

And if we're going to label the performance at his election rallies "stochastic terrorism", then I fear that we may lose all perspective. Part of our problem is we look at people with whom we disagree and assume the worst of intentions. When this happens it is easy to consider the possibility that they are bad actors and trying to hide their true intentions from you, when the reality is that most people on either the right or the left speak frankly about what it is that they want. Now I can't really guess as to what Donald Trump truly believes, though if I had to guess I'd go with money and sex, in that order. But he says what he professes to believe in very plain English, and it is for these reasons that he has political power.

I'm not "labeling his performance at his rallies as stochastic terrorism". I said

Quote

Trump has done and said things that fall under the term stochastic terrorism.

and I'm saying it because he has and a prime example of this is when he's called the media "the enemy of the people" and coupled with his calls for violence at his rallies, yes the man's speech is reckless enough to be considered someone who has engaged in stochastic terrorism.

1 hour ago, Duff Ostrich said:

First, that Donald Trump does not exist outside the mainstream of American politics.

I think the people that have marched with the Trump baby balloon and all the protests, specially the ones in countries he's traveling to, would like a word with you. Tourism in the US has seen decline since Trump came into power. My colleagues from Germany, India, Canada and Czech Republic have all talked about how people in their countries can't believe that Donald Trump was elected. Trump's foreign policy and decisions have hurt us in trade and now China has approval better than the US. I don't see how you can say that "Trump does not exist outside of the mainstream of American politics" with all of that in place.

1 hour ago, Duff Ostrich said:

He is a populist figure for sure, but not a white nationalist of any description.

True enough. He's not a full blown white nationalist. Doesn't mean he can't inspire, encourage, enable, appeal to, etc to white nationalists. He's definitely racist though. Conservatives these days all spew shit that can encourage/inspire white nationalists, after all you have the useful idiot example from my previous post resulting in a WN motivating others like him to "infiltrate" the Republican party. Thing is that there IS a difference between Trump and other GOP leaders: Trump refuses to condemn them when one of their criminals is on the spotlight, he's even on record to have allegedly expressed regret over having to condemn them. You could argue that it's just an allegation but the person making it is quite credible due to his past work.

1 hour ago, Duff Ostrich said:

And neither, barring the smallest fraction of exceptions, are his supporters. 

No one has suggested they all are. Just that white nationalists are supporters of Trump.

1 hour ago, Duff Ostrich said:

Second, to the extent that white nationalism exists it acts independently of Donald Trump. This latest shooting, performed by an Australian in New Zealand, cites Donald Trump in mostly incoherent fashion, alongside the likes of Candace Owens and Spyro the Dragon. This was a man up to his elbows in internet culture, to the point that he shouted "Subscribe to PewDiePie" as he opened fire, and has since flashed an "okay" hand sign (a fake white nationalist gesture, meant as a joke) in front of cameras following his arrest. This tells us nothing about Felix Kjellberg, or any of the other things the shooter referenced. It does however reveal to us something of his intent, which is to "troll" an international audience in the most horrific way imaginable. I thought that The Atlantic made a good case for this, if you're interested: https://www.theatlantic.com/technology/archive/2019/03/the-shooters-manifesto-was-designed-to-troll/585058/

Two things:

1. As Tryhard said, it wasn't just to meme. He does have very real white nationalist talking points and references anecdotal evidence commonly used by white nationalists to justify their hate. The dude IS a white nationalist, even if WNs are trying to disown him and paint him as a leftist because he "misquoted the 14 words, no WN does that" or because he didn't say Pakistan is a shithole. This shooting has the WN stink and they're trying to disown it.

2. This line of discussion that involves Donald Trump was continued by you responding to 

Quote

Surprise surprise, turns out this was an attack inspired by Trump and fueled by far right echo chambers on the chans.

and arguing that it has nothing to do with Donald Trump even though there is specific mention of Donald Trump AND he's called for violence. Nobody is saying that Trump is directly responsible for the death of those people this shooting is accountable to people in leadership positions spreading anti-Muslim rhetoric specially when you call for violence.

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5 hours ago, Duff Ostrich said:

First, that Donald Trump does not exist outside the mainstream of American politics. 

Trump absolutely does exist outside of main stream American politics. Not because he's Trump but because he's the American president. For better or for worse, the American president will always influence the rest of the world because the presence of America is so vastly bigger than any other country. Most people have no idea who is in charge of China, but everyone knows who Trump is (and everyone knew Obama before him). What America does matters.

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Trumpo very much does exist to the point where Bolsonaro, our current leader, is doing whatever is in his power to appease USA, or more specially Trump himself and even Steve fucking Bannon. 

To say that [insert United States president] doesn't exist outside of the United States borders in impossible nowadays.

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On 3/16/2019 at 1:35 PM, Duff Ostrich said:

He was also inspired by Spyro the Dragon, as per the manifesto. While he was undoubtedly lurking in the darker corners of the internet and radicalized there, his "manifesto" is absolutely soaked in memery and should not really be taken at face value.

Not everything has to be about the election of Donald Trump, and indeed I tend to think that this is one of those things that very much isn't.

 

(1)  Lonely, insecure men are phenomenally vulnerable to toxic propaganda.  The internet makes it easier than its every been to access anything-and-everything--nazi race theory, 4chan "meninism," white nationalist manifestos, etc.--and so we see an increasingly large number of lonely, insecure men being radicalized through the internet.

(2)  Trump's rhetoric and policies have made him an icon to White Nationalists around the world. Trump being elected president of the United States has emboldened them to act out in ways we have not seem them act out in decades, because it makes them feel like their beliefs are sufficiently mainstream that they don't have to be coy about it anymore. 

(2) is not false because (1) is true.  (1) is not true because (2) is false.

Both statements are true, and neither negates the other. 

_______

Also--Teachable Moment. This is What Implicit Bias looks Like:

Image result for british tabloid cover new zealand shooting

Image result for british tabloid orlando shooting

Same Publication. Same Editors. Cover When White Supremacist shoots up a Mosque vs. Cover When Jihadist Shoots up a Night Club

See what they did there? 
  

Edited by Shoblongoo

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2 hours ago, Shoblongoo said:

Also--Teachable Moment. This is What Implicit Bias looks Like:

Image result for british tabloid cover new zealand shooting

Image result for british tabloid orlando shooting

Same Publication. Same Editors. Cover When White Supremacist shoots up a Mosque vs. Cover When Jihadist Shoots up a Night Club

See what they did there? 
  

Yes. Yes I do.

Can the journalism laws from before Reagan help with any of this (where you actually had to prove your info.)?

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8 minutes ago, Azure in a Roundabout said:

Can the journalism laws from before Reagan help with any of this (where you actually had to prove your info.)?

No. 

Just a thing for educated voters to be aware of.

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16 minutes ago, Shoblongoo said:

No. 

Just a thing for educated voters to be aware of.

Ok

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The saddest part about that is that the Daily Mirror is a generally centrist publication that is usually aligned with Labour.

Tabloids are going to tabloid no matter what.

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On 3/16/2019 at 5:08 PM, Jotari said:

Oh wow. Didn't know New Zealand was so liberal about it's gun laws. Wonder if they'll change that after this incident.

https://www.stuff.co.nz/national/christchurch-shooting/111455050/new-gun-laws-announced-by-pm-after-christchurch-mosque-shootings

https://www.theguardian.com/world/2019/mar/21/explainer-how-are-new-zealands-gun-laws-changing

Edited by Tetragrammaton

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