Should Reclassing Return / Unit Identity

[NegativeExponents-]

Why is there so much hate for reclass options? It’s something that never has to be used if you don’t want to use it. You can get by just fine without having to reclass anyone in fates or awakening or grind for hours (something that can’t even be done in Conquest unless you use DLC). It’s completely optional and pleases those that do like it. No one wants cases like Marisa again who comes much later than Joshua and has nothing to offer. How could you even argue that being a good thing? Or how the soldier class in SoV is the worst class to be in outside of obtaining defense promotion bonuses before using a Fork to change them to something like Cavalier which is just a better soldier.

[Modamy]

6 minutes ago, NegativeExponents- said:

Why is there so much hate for reclass options? It’s something that never has to be used if you don’t want to use it. You can get by just fine without having to reclass anyone in fates or awakening or grind for hours (something that can’t even be done in Conquest unless you use DLC). It’s completely optional and pleases those that do like it. No one wants cases like Marisa again who comes much later than Joshua and has nothing to offer. How could you even argue that being a good thing? Or how the soldier class in SoV is the worst class to be in outside of obtaining defense promotion bonuses before using a Fork to change them to something like Cavalier which is just a better soldier.

For me the problem with reclassing isn't that it's mandatory (which it isn't) or that it makes you grind it's the fact that how it's handled in Fire Emblem just shows how badly balanced the different classes are. Fire emblem's always had trouble making all the classes relevant; in most of the games being a mounted unit automatically makes you good because there are so many benefits and so few downsides. With reclassing a lot classes feel like they only exist for the sake of getting a skill out of it and once you've gotten that skill you just reclass into something better because now there is no reason to stay in that class. My problem with reclassing as it exists now is that it homogenizes all the units and makes even having separate classes pointless. There are other factors in this that show certain classes are pointless like how there are typically no inherent abilities for any classes outside of mounts (who get canto) and fliers (who, well, can fly) that make some classes like armors laughably pointless. Map design not being in their favor doesn't help either, but at this point I'm starting to ramble. I just think IS needs to go back to basics with Fire Emblem and build a game that actually gives a reason for all the classes to actually exist before they start screwing around with reclassing as a mechanic.

[EdeaCreamer]

Well, with respect to the mounted/flight discussion, that's more a problem of 1) said mounts being parts of certain classes rather than an entirely separate mechanic, and 2) abstractions to the actual RL difficulty of raising/caring for animals like that, much less determining where and when you can bring them with you. It's like they keep the damn things inside Pokeballs in FE, and even then at least you shouldn't be able to ride around on them indoors (Cammy and Ellip-Sis are apparently allowed and able to ride around on their big-ass wyverns inside a goddamn OPERA HOUSE. WHAT.).

Another problem is Speed being WAY too important compared to the other stats, and it's always been that way in Fire Emblem, so I don't see it going away anytime soon. Like, being able to double-attack should require multiple stats (probably Speed and Skill both) be at the determined threshold, or simply nerf follow-up attacks directly. In any case, a class with low Speed's just going to have trouble, period, so it's little wonder Armor Knights get crapped on a lot (Wary Fighter is a BIG step in the right direction, probably the best new skill idea in all of Fates).

[Cysx]

8 hours ago, Modamy said:

I'm working my way through Thracia so I haven't finished, but I'm pretty sure he's referencing how some units of the same class promote into different things. For example, thieves in Thracia promote into thief fighters but one of those thieves can promote into a thief fighter or a dancer or thief fighter and then into dancer.

There's that, yes, and so much more, on top of the things you find in most of the series, as in their growth, base stats, join time, etc. Every unit also has their own pcc(pursuit critical coefficient, which is a number from 0 to 5 that always multiplies your crit rate on followup attacks),  pre-built one-way supports that you want to take advantage of, movement stars(a 0% to 25% chance to get a second action), quite a few have leadership stars(+3 accuracy and avoid per star to your entire team when fielded), it has the most personal weapons of any FE game by far(14 plus a couple that only a few units can use), skills are pretty much as rare as FE4 first gen... except with no second gen, making them probably the most meaningful they've ever been...

I took quick notes during my last Thracia playthrough, and out of 48(?) playable characters, there were maybe three or four that didn't stand out from everyone else in some way or another.

12 hours ago, Levant Mir Celestia said:

Counterpoint: Most units that can learn Armsthrift don't have the luck stats to make it work consistently (those being everyone but Donnel and a luck asset Robin). Also, two of the first gen are late joiners. As for Second Seals, they're limited until you either clear a hard paralogue (which entails marrying people off) or chapter 16. Until then, getting more than 3 means hoping to get lucky with a merchant.

On top of that, on higher difficulties exp gains quickly become so gimped due to how internal levels work that you will quickly get stuck in your second to third reclass unless you grind. Wanted galeforce on Brady in my last/only lunatic playthrough, for example, well getting Maribelle from dark flier lv1 to 15 while using her in every chapter and every child paralogue still pretty much took the entire game. Picked up Brady right before the second to last chapter, as the last remaining child.

I agree that it taking you back to level 1 is initially pretty busted though. As far as I'm concerned, I like the Fates system a lot more, but as you said, full use of MyCastle breaks it quite violently, and also, partner seals do technically allow almost anyone to become almost any given class, and I can sympathize with being bothered by that.

Edited February 18, 2018 by Cysx

[Slumber]

36 minutes ago, Cysx said:

I agree that it taking you back to level 1 is initially pretty busted though. As far as I'm concerned, I like the Fates system a lot more, but as you said, full use of MyCastle breaks it quite violently, and also, partner seals do technically allow almost anyone to become almost any given class, and I can sympathize with being bothered by that.

All fair points, but all in all, I'm not really a fan of how Awakening and Fates have handled reclassing. Trashing Awakening's system and saying Fates did it better is not me saying "Fates did it right". I just think the limitations inherently imposed within Fates, particularly Conquest where resources were at their most valuable and grinding was discouraged, complement the system a lot better than how Awakening handled it. I would still like stiffer limitations than even what Conquest gave.

Obviously I want the broken aspects of MyCastle gone, too. You can say  "Oh, just don't use MyCastle is you want strategy", but if a mechanic in a strategy game is so unbalanced that you have to ignore core gameplay functions(That the game CONSTANTLY tosses in your face) to get more "strategy" out of the game, then maybe those mechanics should be reworked. I have similar sentiments to reclassing, where I feel like have to limit myself like crazy to get what I'd actually want out of the game. It's levels above simply ignoring good units in favor of "bad" units for more challenge like it was in old games.

While I'm also not a fan of this system overall, maybe some kind of "class allowance" like SD and NM had would help a bit. But that might just make reclassing as a whole seem unnecessary, so it's probably not the route they'd go if they want it to continue being a core gameplay mechanic.

I've kind of got a grasp on how I'd prefer they handle skills, but I'm still not sure how I want them to handle reclassing.

Edited February 18, 2018 by Slumber

[Armagon]

It was funny seeing broken units but honestly, i think reclassing should go. It's much more fun figuring out your own strategy with what you have rather than just making everyone Superman. I think reclassing should only stay if it makes sense for the character. Like, Character A is an archer but mentions that he's also good with a sword. Therefore, he's got access to Mercenary/Myrmidon class lines as well.

[EdeaCreamer]

I liked the idea of -pre-established- class sets for each character, sets that can hopefully be verified by the unit's character background.  What I wasn't too keen on was the waifu simulator being used as an excuse to add an unpredictable/background-inappropriate number of additional options to those sets -in the middle of the game-, because...magic, I guess (Corn obviously being the biggest offender in this department, in Fates).

Spoiler

Maybe take Ryoma from Fates, as an example.  Ryoma being able to switch to Sky Knight is...fine.  He joins you that way, that's part of his kit.  Hoshidan education might just involve studying sojutsu by default, as all four of them have a secondary class specializing in naginata use.  It could be explained away.

But then you waifu, say, Felicia with Ryoma and...you can turn him into a Butler all of a sudden.  What?  The Crown Prince of Hoshido, in a Nohrian class, and a -Butler-, to boot.  You seen his goofy ass as a Butler?  It's glorious, but not in the 'good' way...

The he Buddy Seals with his retainer into Ninja, I mean he might as well since he's got the other Dagger class...does Ryoma seem the type to use poison?  Not that the whole "samurai vs. ninja" thing is historically accurate, by any means (in fact most ninja WERE samurai, so a Ninja primary/Samurai secondary class line for Kaze/Saizo makes perfect sense), but if we're going with the romanticized Edo-period notion of 'bushido' (and Ryoma definitely comes across this way in his characterization), I don't think he'd submit to using poison in combat like, ever.

And then there's Mechanist...how the hell is their capstone skill even duplicating a divine weapon?  If it's that easy to clone, Yukimura'd be able to figure out how to reproduce his electric fuckstick in bulk with the Prf removed.  Hell, I'd have him pull an Oprah: "You get a shocksword, he gets a shocksword, we're ALL getting shockswords!"

[Shadow Mir]

On February 17, 2018 at 10:59 PM, Modamy said:

For me the problem with reclassing isn't that it's mandatory (which it isn't) or that it makes you grind it's the fact that how it's handled in Fire Emblem just shows how badly balanced the different classes are. Fire emblem's always had trouble making all the classes relevant; in most of the games being a mounted unit automatically makes you good because there are so many benefits and so few downsides. With reclassing a lot classes feel like they only exist for the sake of getting a skill out of it and once you've gotten that skill you just reclass into something better because now there is no reason to stay in that class. My problem with reclassing as it exists now is that it homogenizes all the units and makes even having separate classes pointless. There are other factors in this that show certain classes are pointless like how there are typically no inherent abilities for any classes outside of mounts (who get canto) and fliers (who, well, can fly) that make some classes like armors laughably pointless. Map design not being in their favor doesn't help either, but at this point I'm starting to ramble. I just think IS needs to go back to basics with Fire Emblem and build a game that actually gives a reason for all the classes to actually exist before they start screwing around with reclassing as a mechanic.

Frankly, I could say the same for unique promotions (to an extent), on the grounds that giving someone a unique promotion does NOT mean they'll be good or useful. Case in point: make one Fighter a Berserker and another a Hero. It's pretty obvious which one will be better in most situations...

[X-Naut]

While I disagree that reclassing kills unit identity, it's moreso in the 3DS games because there's a cost associated with it and it's not a cookie cutter system. In the DS games it does kinda reduce characters to stats...

However I'd much rather they get rid of personal cap modifiers than reclassing.

[Interdimensional Observer]

7 hours ago, X-Naut said:

However I'd much rather they get rid of personal cap modifiers than reclassing.

I don't think they were a bad idea per se, they're just not really relevant at all to Fates, and only for maybe the hardest of DLC in Awakening. They also had them in SoV, but they are absolutely meaningless here, at most you're looking at +3/-3 on stats universally capping at 40, which requires a massive grind to get to in the first place.

Personal stat caps little more than produce breeding min-max nonsense and add a hint of gameplay flavor, but no substance, to characters.

Edited February 21, 2018 by Interdimensional Observer

[Cumatora]

Reclassing is one of the best reasons to replay a fire emblem game or to use a unit again. i love making weird reclasses like knight to a dark mage. I really hope they put it in fe switch

[edgelordweeaboo]

IMO it adds a lot to the replay value of the game, so I hope it returns

[TwiceTested]

Have each character have a set promotion, such as Myrmidon -> Swordmaster, but if you use a special item (Assasin's Dagger) you can instead promote Myrmidon -> Assassin.  Totally stole this idea from Shinning Force 2, but I loved that game!  You could always promote your mages into Sorcerer's, but the Mage does WAY better AOE damage while the Sorcerer does WAY better single target.  Little things like that.

Also, for Magic, I'd LOVE there to be a way to hit more than one person at a time.  SOMETHING to discourage the zerg tactics and make tactics important rather just "Run as close as you can and let them hit you!"

[Ivy Wife Supremacy]

On 3/10/2018 at 4:00 AM, edgelordweeaboo said:

IMO it adds a lot to the replay value of the game, so I hope it returns

Yeah same here the chances are extremely likely to me.

Edited April 6, 2018 by Blade Lord Lyn

[MyBoyHector]

On ‎10‎/‎03‎/‎2018 at 7:00 PM, edgelordweeaboo said:

IMO it adds a lot to the replay value of the game, so I hope it returns

Its odd because both sides of the coin offer replay ability. If you go with the reclassing side, you bring the character, not the class, in which case you can play over and over again with different classes, but you end up using the same characters again and again, then miss out on what the others bring or do. While if you go with no reclassing, If you want to do something a bit different, you bring other characters, but eventually you do run out of options.

Personally I'd prefer if reclassing goes or becomes very limited (like 3-4 times, or a little bit more depending on how huge a cast of characters we get, not so much for a game play view, but a reality view. It doesn't really make sense that someone who trained to be an Armor Knight all their lives, suddenly learns how to use magic, one would think that requires either aptitude or long period of training.

[Jotari]

I like the idea of reclassing, but I think it should be completely limited to just one other class line. Too many classes and the unit loses their identity, but just one or two other classes, gives the character more identity. Like Shura being an Adventurer and a Ninja.

[Shadow Mir]

On 4/8/2018 at 8:13 AM, Jotari said:

I like the idea of reclassing, but I think it should be completely limited to just one other class line. Too many classes and the unit loses their identity, but just one or two other classes, gives the character more identity. Like Shura being an Adventurer and a Ninja.

The whole loss of identity thing is only really a thing in the DS games, if you ask me. Reclassing in those reduced units to little more than stats.

Edited April 10, 2018 by Levant Mir Celestia

[Tolvir]

Why not both.

Keep characters in their base classes for the most part, maybe throw in a few "villager" types to give the player some choice over the characters and how they grow, and then toss a few pitchforks/seals in some free DLC for people to play around with if they want.

[Slumber]

On 4/9/2018 at 2:30 PM, Tolvir said:

Why not both.

Keep characters in their base classes for the most part, maybe throw in a few "villager" types to give the player some choice over the characters and how they grow, and then toss a few pitchforks/seals in some free DLC for people to play around with if they want.

Might be the better way to go about it. Make reclassing a DLC thing. 

And honestly, as much as I harp on the game, I think Sacred Stones did best with the villager/trainee concept*. Amelia, Ross and Ewan all still had some level of unit identity while still being flexible with their class choices. If they had a handful of villagers/trainees like that in the next FE, I wouldn't complain.

*except the part where Amelia and Ewan were dogshit, and Ross was at best just okay. Obviously giving villagers bases that allowed them to be used right off the bat, and growths that encouraged use would go a long way. 

If the next FE has a "villager" branch for every set of classes, then pitchforks that reclasses every character into their base villager class might be fun. AND it wouldn't completely destroy unit identity. 

Edited April 10, 2018 by Slumber

[Altrosa]

I don't find characters designed to suck entertaining, and the great advantage of the Awakening/Fates reclass systems is that you can put in the work and make a character useful. But, I totally understand the arguments posed against it. 

Personally, I'd go for class trees and avoid "trash" units altogether. Even go so far as to say we need 3rd tier classes. Second seals were too much, but I still want my units to feel like my own and I want my personal taste and effort reflected beyond "you used this guy." 

I really liked Echoes' method of class builds in that different units in the same class had access to different spells. While I don't think we need everyone to be a villager, it satisfies the desire to customize yet keeps unit identity intact. 

Edited April 11, 2018 by Altrosa

[Kammaru]

I don't see the reason for removing options. Options make for replay value, if you don't want to use those options, then think of them as "optional", because they are. I personally don't like playing the game as a linear story-line where everything is codified and rigid. It makes me feel like I have no say in what the characters are like and feels like watching an b-rated fantasy flick. Give me more class-trees, special characters with different growths in spells and skill in the same classes, anything at all that you can which allows me to tailor my units, otherwise I'm just going to hack it in anyway. So why not include it and save both of us the time? 

[Slumber]

39 minutes ago, Kammaru said:

I don't see the reason for removing options. Options make for replay value, if you don't want to use those options, then think of them as "optional", because they are. I personally don't like playing the game as a linear story-line where everything is codified and rigid. It makes me feel like I have no say in what the characters are like and feels like watching an b-rated fantasy flick. Give me more class-trees, special characters with different growths in spells and skill in the same classes, anything at all that you can which allows me to tailor my units, otherwise I'm just going to hack it in anyway. So why not include it and save both of us the time? 

See, I don't see reclassing options as adding replay value. I find Awakening less replayable than Fates even though Awakening has more reclassing, and I've only played through Fates twice(Or 4 times if you wanna count each version). 

Meanwhile, I've played 4-10 way more than either, and it's not just because they're older. I've probably played 5, 6 and 7 more times since Awakening came out than I have played Awakening. 

Somebody said this earlier, and I agree with it 100%. In Awakening and Fates, additions like reclassing doesn't add replayability. It just makes you want to never stop playing the same save file. Which is why I have a 100 hour+ Awakening playthrough and one file each in Rev/BR/CQ that I'll never delete, permanently eating up a slot. 

And I'm starting to understand why. Games without reclassing force you to change if something goes wrong. A unit you typically use gets RNG screwed and is borderline unusable or dies, and you have to pick an alternative. You have to adopt a different playstyle, which keeps things fresh from playthrough to playthrough. My most recent FE6 playthrough was much different than my first or second. 

Games with reclassing force you to change the game. And in these cases, chances are, your personal preferences don't change nearly as much if the game's not incentivizing you to do anything differently. These games give you the tools so that your experience always goes the way you want, which doesn't do much to change how the game is played from run to run. If a unit you typically use starts to suck, switching to a class with better bases and getting good skills will salvage them you're back on track with a little effort. These games don't take you out of your comfort zone, and it's way less interesting to play through the games again, IMO. Hence why my first and most recent Awakening playthroughs more or less ended the exact same ways. 

These games need structure and rigidity to some degree. If more options was inherently better, there'd be no reason anyone would play anything besides things like Minecraft, Roblox, Gary's Mod, and custom Doom WADs. Everyone would play RPG Maker instead of Final Fantasy or Dragon Quest. And Disgaea would be undisputedly the king of SRPGs. 

Edited April 11, 2018 by Slumber

[Kammaru]

19 minutes ago, Slumber said:

See, I don't see reclassing options as adding replay value. I find Awakening less replayable than Fates even though Awakening has more reclassing, and I've only played through Fates twice(Or 4 times if you wanna count each version). 

Meanwhile, I've played 4-10 way more than either, and it's not just because they're older. I've probably played 5, 6 and 7 more times since Awakening came out than I have played Awakening. 

Somebody said this earlier, and I agree with it 100%. In Awakening and Fates, additions like reclassing doesn't add replayability. It just makes you want to never stop playing the same save file. 

And I'm starting to understand why. Games without reclassing force you to change if something goes wrong. A unit you typically use gets RNG screwed and is borderline unusable or dies, and you have to pick an alternative. You have to adopt a different playstyle, which keeps things fresh from playthrough to playthrough. 

Games with reclassing force you to change the game. And in these cases, chances are, you're personal preferences don't change nearly as much if the game's not incentivizing you to do anything differently. These games give you the tools so that your experience always goes the way you want, which doesn't do much to change how the game is played from run to run. If a unit you typically use starts to suck, switching to a class with better bases and getting good skills will salvage them you're back on track with a little effort. These games don't take you out of your comfort zone, and it's way less interesting to play through the games again, IMO.

See, I don't think limiting choice makes for great game mechanics. I think it makes it what it is, limited and rigid. It doesn't make me think any more or develop new strategies, honestly the classes aren't different enough for that. The changing of character classes is mostly aesthetics and desire based on head-cannon or optimization. If the character isn't good or serves naught the purpose I intend, then I just don't use them. If I play it again, I'll just remember to not recruit them and waste the exp, but if I can change them, then maybe I would use the unit.  

The games with rigid structure do nothing to take me out of my comfort zone either. I can beat them with those limited units just as easily as I could without, but that isn't the point of playing the game, is it? This isn't a competition, it's about utility and in this case utility is based on enjoyment. What you enjoy and what I enjoy may be different, and in fact it seems that it most likely is, but why should how you derive your entertainment be a hindrance to mine and vice versa?

As for playing the same save over and over again, I don't agree with what you say. I've played dozens of different times through Fates and Awakening, and I am quite sure that since Fates is the best selling FE game to date, that others have as well. 

Edited April 11, 2018 by Kammaru
repetitive

[Slumber]

41 minutes ago, Kammaru said:

What you enjoy and what I enjoy may be different, and in fact it seems that it most likely is, but why should how you derive your entertainment be a hindrance to mine and vice versa? 

Because Fire Emblem's done what I've enjoyed before, and it did it for about 15 years before it changed how it handled core gameplay mechanics that I saw as key to the identity of the franchise and drove me away. 

And I'm not saying "RAW RAW FIRE EMBLEM SHOULD NEVER CHANGE YOU DAMN KIDS STOP PLAYING ON MY LAWN", but I am saying that I don't think IS thought through these changes all that well, hence why Fates was a lost stricter in regards to reclassing(To some degree. Yes, through Friend and Heart seals you do ultimately get more flexibility compared to Awakening, but there's a pretty strict compromise that goes with this) than Awakening was, which was reclass-city. Too much freedom with reclassing is a bad thing, and as goofy and whacky as it could be in Awakening, if you did it enough, or just found the OP classes and skills(Like, say Sorcerers or skills like Galeforce/Vengeance), the structure of the game completely snapped in half. At a certain point, a game where the selling point was the characters and how they could die, it suddenly didn't matter at all who these units were in gameplay. Your army would just become a blurry mix of whatever broken shit was in Awakening, and using whoever could access it. 

Fates scaled this back quite a bit, nerfing reclassing and nixing/nerfing the hilariously broken skills and classes, but your army would still just become an amorphous blob at some point. Didn't really matter who was doing what, or if your favorite units weren't performing as you expected. Even your worst performer likely had access to something that would fix them in a brisk period of time. 

Which is why I, and I'm assuming most of the people in this thread who think reclassing should be scaled back even more or just flat out removed, don't like how the newer games have handled this. Unit identity is largely gone and it really doesn't matter who you use anymore, as basically anyone can do anything. This is fundamentally just not Fire Emblem to me. Fire Emblem, to me, was a strategy game where you were given a bunch of tools and you weren't sure if the tools you were given would be the tools you expected to need at the end of the game. There was a certain appeal to the idea that things might not work out how you wanted, and there wasn't so much is a safety net. Obviously these games are far from impossible and you can generally use whoever, but if Rutger keeps getting strength screwed, you have to be REALLY stubborn to keep using him and relying on him. You only get so many promotion items in FE6, and even if you goes against your plans starting the game, at some point, whether it becomes obvious or not, it'll probably be smarter to use an alternative instead of keep trying with Rutger. Which is where a lot of variations in runs comes in. 

41 minutes ago, Kammaru said:

As for playing the same save over and over again, I don't agree with what you say. I've played dozens of different times through Fates and Awakening, and I am quite sure that since Fates is the best selling FE game to date, that others have as well. 

I'm not sure I'm seeing the correlation of "Fates sold better than every other Fire Emblem, meaning more people must be replaying it more than other Fire Emblems".

If anything, going by how generally gamers don't finish most games they buy, this just means that there are more people out there who haven't even finished Fates than any other Fire Emblem. 

Even if they did, more people buying it doesn't go against what you or I have said. It could just mean that there are a bunch of people going "Well, I don't want to lose all of my MyCastle progress", and just having a single 200 run like I said. Or it could mean that there are 1,999,999 people out there constantly replaying it and never getting tired of it, and I'M the outlier. Or people could have just beaten the game once(Or three times, again, depending on how you think about the 3 routes in Fates) at a reasonable pace and moved on. The only thing that we actually know is just that more people than ever before have given Nintendo money for a Fire Emblem game, and that's all the sales tell us about the game. 

Edited April 11, 2018 by Slumber

[Kammaru]

Quote

Because Fire Emblem's done what I've enjoyed before, and it did it for about 15 years before it changed how it handled core gameplay mechanics that I saw as key to the identity of the franchise and drove me away. 

And now it has changed. It had fifteen years to get better and it almost completely died as a franchise. If what it is evolving into, is not your cup of tea, then it's just not. That's unfortunately the way of adulting as we go. I think it's very evident that they don't want to lose the old fans, but frankly, the old fans aren't enough to push the franchise into the future. So if the features like re-classing  are being well received by the new fans, then it's most likely what is going to happen. 

What is Unit Identity? Why is their class seemingly all of their identity? I don't think class has anything to do with the identity of the character, it's just the job you ask them to do on the battlefield. This concept hearkens back to original red-box Dungeons and Dragons where there were no classes, there was just Elf, Dwarf, Wizard etc. I remember playing games like Shining Force where options were very limited and loving it, but I also remember wanting to change it up and have the respective roles change from time to time just because.

 

Quote

I'm not sure I'm seeing the correlation of "Fates sold better than every other Fire Emblem, meaning more people must be replaying it more than other Fire Emblems".

Fair enough.