Should Reclassing Return / Unit Identity

[Shadow Mir]

4 hours ago, Jotari said:

Thracia probably has the best unit balance in the series. There are some units with prf weapons that make them more valuable, and if you have a staff your inherently better, but on the whole, every last unit is worth deploying and can hold their own with a unique niche of some sort.

I call bullshit because it has that godawful Con system, for one. Second, mages get no buffer because why???

3 hours ago, MyBoyHector said:

Just do a FE4 and have all units deployable, fixes the issue.

I doubt it - FE4 only had 24 playable units, and the deploying everyone thing had its own problems. Also, the most units that could be deployed was 30, and that was in Awakening. Just how many people would bother trying to raise more than 20 units, much less more than 30??? I assure you that number would be very low...

[Jotari]

3 minutes ago, Levant Mir Celestia said:

I call bullshit because it has that godawful Con system, for one. Second, mages get no buffer because why???

I don't know what you mean by no buffer, but if you're suggesting mages aren't useful in Thracia, then that's just blatantly untrue. I can't think of a single mage in the game who isn't really good (though I haven't used Miranda or Ilios due to route splits).

[Shadow Mir]

1 hour ago, Jotari said:

I don't know what you mean by no buffer, but if you're suggesting mages aren't useful in Thracia, then that's just blatantly untrue. I can't think of a single mage in the game who isn't really good (though I haven't used Miranda or Ilios due to route splits).

I meant that mages are still subject to the AS = Speed - Weight formula that was used in the first 4 games. Which is hardly fair or balanced when everyone else is not subject to that. Also, another glaring balance problem is with Saias and Ced - you're practically shooting yourself in the foot if you don't take the latter. How can you claim Thracia has good unit balance in the face of this??? Anyway, I'm not trying to say mages are useless, but I find it awful when you have stuff like Dime Thunder, Resire, and Yotsmungand, all of which destroy their wielders' AS.

[Jotari]

6 minutes ago, Levant Mir Celestia said:

I meant that mages are still subject to the AS = Speed - Weight formula that was used in the first 4 games. Which is hardly fair or balanced when everyone else is not subject to that. Also, another glaring balance problem is with Saias and Ced - you're practically shooting yourself in the foot if you don't take the latter. How can you claim Thracia has good unit balance in the face of this??? Anyway, I'm not trying to say mages are useless, but I find it awful when you have stuff like Dime Thunder, Resire, and Yotsmungand, all of which destroy their wielders' AS.

Yeah, Ced is miles better than Sais, but you actively have to go out of your way to keep Sais and not recruit Ced. And even then, it's not like Sais is useless. He comes with A staff rank  and 18 magic, giving him tonnes of utility. It's stupid that you can't use both of them, but Ced being so much better than Sais isn't stupid. Ced and Galzus are meant to be better than everyone else. They're Gotoh archtypes. They don't destroy the balance of the game because the arrive in the last four chapters.

Name a single mage in the game that you have trouble killing things with. It doesn't matter if they lose attack speed, Mages are still great in Thracia. I didn't even know they worked along different lines than other units because they're just as capable in battle as anyone else. And the tomes you mentioned need something nerfing them. Dime Thunder is a magical brave weapon, Resire restores health and Yotsmungand poisons (okay, well it doesn't for the user to stop you cheesing bosses, but it does for the enemy and they work under the same rules, and you only have one character that can wield Yotsmungand and he's really, really good even if he couldn't use dark magic).

[Slumber]

1 hour ago, Jotari said:

Yeah, Ced is miles better than Sais, but you actively have to go out of your way to keep Sais and not recruit Ced. And even then, it's not like Sais is useless. He comes with A staff rank  and 18 magic, giving him tonnes of utility. It's stupid that you can't use both of them, but Ced being so much better than Sais isn't stupid. Ced and Galzus are meant to be better than everyone else. They're Gotoh archtypes. They don't destroy the balance of the game because the arrive in the last four chapters.

Name a single mage in the game that you have trouble killing things with. It doesn't matter if they lose attack speed, Mages are still great in Thracia. I didn't even know they worked along different lines than other units because they're just as capable in battle as anyone else. And the tomes you mentioned need something nerfing them. Dime Thunder is a magical brave weapon, Resire restores health and Yotsmungand poisons (okay, well it doesn't for the user to stop you cheesing bosses, but it does for the enemy and they work under the same rules, and you only have one character that can wield Yotsmungand and he's really, really good even if he couldn't use dark magic).

It's worth mentioning, again, that Levant hasn't actually played Thracia 776.

Every single Mage in the game has something going for them. Asvel with Grafcalibur, Salem with dark magic and early staff access, Olwen with Dime Thunder, Homer being a statistically better Asvel(AND Ced) and Elite but with no prf weapon, Linoan having Resire, Ilios being a statistically better Olwen but no prf weapon, Miranda having better stats and skills than either Olwen or Ilios, but needing more babying, Sara having good staff access and a great skill set, Saias having good bases, max staff rank and Warp, and Ced having Holsety. 

You can even do this breakdown for every class in the game. Damn near everyone offers something, with maybe Selfina's group being the biggest exception. Even the joke character is your best merchant and can save you tons of cash. Thracia's also the only game that got late, low leveled units right. Miranda and Sara will need some attention, but it really takes little effort to get them up to speed. Nobody else in the army will really suffer because you decided to give them attention. 

[Shadow Mir]

2 hours ago, Jotari said:

Yeah, Ced is miles better than Sais, but you actively have to go out of your way to keep Sais and not recruit Ced. And even then, it's not like Sais is useless. He comes with A staff rank  and 18 magic, giving him tonnes of utility. It's stupid that you can't use both of them, but Ced being so much better than Sais isn't stupid. Ced and Galzus are meant to be better than everyone else. They're Gotoh archtypes. They don't destroy the balance of the game because the arrive in the last four chapters.

Name a single mage in the game that you have trouble killing things with. It doesn't matter if they lose attack speed, Mages are still great in Thracia. I didn't even know they worked along different lines than other units because they're just as capable in battle as anyone else. And the tomes you mentioned need something nerfing them. Dime Thunder is a magical brave weapon, Resire restores health and Yotsmungand poisons (okay, well it doesn't for the user to stop you cheesing bosses, but it does for the enemy and they work under the same rules, and you only have one character that can wield Yotsmungand and he's really, really good even if he couldn't use dark magic).

Ced also comes with A staves, so that is not much of a point in Saias's favor. And aside from one point in Mag, Saias just loses across the board in terms of bases, except for Skill, where he ties. Growths wise? Also completely one-sided in Ced's favor. Which brings me back to the point... how the hell can you claim with a straight face that Thracia's balance isn't trash when you have bullshit on this scale???

There's a fine line between "nerfing" and "making almost useless". Resire has shaky accuracy (65); combined with its 12 weight, I'd consider that impractical to use. Dime Thunder is a brave weapon, but with that weight... I'd practically have to trade equip something else after using it. Which is inconvenient af, and might not even be an option.

35 minutes ago, Slumber said:

It's worth mentioning, again, that Levant hasn't actually played Thracia 776.

Every single Mage in the game has something going for them. Asvel with Grafcalibur, Salem with dark magic and early staff access, Olwen with Dime Thunder, Homer being a statistically better Asvel(AND Ced) and Elite but with no prf weapon, Linoan having Resire, Ilios being a statistically better Olwen but no prf weapon, Miranda having better stats and skills than either Olwen or Ilios, but needing more babying, Sara having good staff access and a great skill set, Saias having good bases, max staff rank and Warp, and Ced having Holsety. 

You can even do this breakdown for every class in the game. Damn near everyone offers something, with maybe Selfina's group being the biggest exception. Even the joke character is your best merchant and can save you tons of cash. Thracia's also the only game that got late, low leveled units right. Miranda and Sara will need some attention, but it really takes little effort to get them up to speed. Nobody else in the army will really suffer because you decided to give them attention. 

I don't give a fig that I haven't bothered to play - but I still think anyone trying to claim it has good balance is lying through their teeth.

See above for Saias stuff. There is practically no good reason to not take Ced over him when he beats Saias in pretty much every way. How can I take claims that Thracia is balanced even remotely seriously when you have crap on that grand a scale??? I don't really consider dark magic access that great of a selling point for Salem when the one dark spell that isn't the long range spell or enemy only is pretty heavy. Resire and Dime Thunder, I covered above. And there's still the con system that's a big middle finger to females in general...

[Jotari]

1 hour ago, Levant Mir Celestia said:

Ced also comes with A staves, so that is not much of a point in Saias's favor. And aside from one point in Mag, Saias just loses across the board in terms of bases, except for Skill, where he ties. Growths wise? Also completely one-sided in Ced's favor. Which brings me back to the point... how the hell can you claim with a straight face that Thracia's balance isn't trash when you have bullshit on this scale???

There's a fine line between "nerfing" and "making almost useless". Resire has shaky accuracy (65); combined with its 12 weight, I'd consider that impractical to use. Dime Thunder is a brave weapon, but with that weight... I'd practically have to trade equip something else after using it. Which is inconvenient af, and might not even be an option.

I don't give a fig that I haven't bothered to play - but I still think anyone trying to claim it has good balance is lying through their teeth.

See above for Saias stuff. There is practically no good reason to not take Ced over him when he beats Saias in pretty much every way. How can I take claims that Thracia is balanced even remotely seriously when you have crap on that grand a scale??? I don't really consider dark magic access that great of a selling point for Salem when the one dark spell that isn't the long range spell or enemy only is pretty heavy. Resire and Dime Thunder, I covered above. And there's still the con system that's a big middle finger to females in general...

You seriously don't have any ground to stand on until you've actually played the game. You can look at all these things and complain, but until you've actually played the game, you have no genuine knowledge as to how they work. Yes, Ced is better than Saias, that doesn't break the game's balance. Ced is meant to be over powered. That's his role. Saias is basically a guest character for one chapter. It's not like Samson and Arran, you actively have to prevent yourself from recruiting him. And even then, he can hold is own. If you were allowed to permanently keep him, he'd be just as worth fielding as Ced. Ced might be better, but Saias isn't useless, that's the point. He can do things. Olwen can do things. Leif can do things, Dalsin can do things even Marty of all people can do things. Every character in Thracia is worth fielding, there's honestly no other game in the series I can say that for. Some characters are better than others (anyone with a stave is instantly A tier), but the level in which they're better than others is not as extreme as every other game in the series. Thracia was intentionally designed to have a balanced cast, that's why there's actively a mechanic that forces you to train up more characters than you can deploy. Because they're all worth using.

Just play the game. You really don't know what you're talking about until you played it. Thracia is a completely different beast than the rest of the series.

Edited April 12, 2018 by Jotari

[Lewyn]

Wait, people actually criticize games in detail that they haven't played?  That makes no sense.  Whenever I criticize a mechanic or some aspect of a fire emblem game, well I've played all of them.  Doesn't mean my opinion is right, but at least I can offer an opinion since I've experienced the game.  

[Shadow Mir]

16 hours ago, Jotari said:

You seriously don't have any ground to stand on until you've actually played the game. You can look at all these things and complain, but until you've actually played the game, you have no genuine knowledge as to how they work. Yes, Ced is better than Saias, that doesn't break the game's balance. Ced is meant to be over powered. That's his role. Saias is basically a guest character for one chapter. It's not like Samson and Arran, you actively have to prevent yourself from recruiting him. And even then, he can hold is own. If you were allowed to permanently keep him, he'd be just as worth fielding as Ced. Ced might be better, but Saias isn't useless, that's the point. He can do things. Olwen can do things. Leif can do things, Dalsin can do things even Marty of all people can do things. Every character in Thracia is worth fielding, there's honestly no other game in the series I can say that for. Some characters are better than others (anyone with a stave is instantly A tier), but the level in which they're better than others is not as extreme as every other game in the series. Thracia was intentionally designed to have a balanced cast, that's why there's actively a mechanic that forces you to train up more characters than you can deploy. Because they're all worth using.

Just play the game. You really don't know what you're talking about until you played it. Thracia is a completely different beast than the rest of the series.

Being overpowered is one thing, but when you make an overpowered character (like Ced) mutually exclusive with one who isn't (like Saias), I expect the non-OP character to actually have something notable over the other one to compensate, which Saias cannot claim in any way, shape or form whatsoever (1 extra base mag ain't even close to enough to make it worth it). Thus I might as well be shooting myself in the foot if I don't get Ced. That's the complete antithesis of balance, far as I'm concerned. I would also bring up dismounting being completely awful in Thracia. Or that being an armor only serves to give another weakness to watch out for. Or the fact that not unlike in the GBA games, female units are radically more limited in terms of what weapons they can use without losing AS (and before you mention con growths, I'll state that most units have pretty low ones with the exception of Marty - and the highest ones all happen to be on male units). How the hell is any of these okay???

Absolutely not! I refuse to involve myself with Jugdral when I have nothing to gain but a massive headache. Especially with bullshit like the fact that healing staves are able to miss, as well as fatigue. Not to mention the fact that I know I'm not gonna be able to enjoy it. Let us never speak of this again.

Edited April 13, 2018 by Levant Mir Celestia

[Jotari]

31 minutes ago, Levant Mir Celestia said:

Being overpowered is one thing, but when you make an overpowered character (like Ced) mutually exclusive with one who isn't (like Saias), I expect the non-OP character to actually have something notable over the other one to compensate, which Saias cannot claim in any way, shape or form whatsoever (1 extra base mag ain't even close to enough to make it worth it). Thus I might as well be shooting myself in the foot if I don't get Ced. That's the complete antithesis of balance, far as I'm concerned. I would also bring up dismounting being completely awful in Thracia. Or that being an armor only serves to give another weakness to watch out for. Or the fact that not unlike in the GBA games, female units are radically more limited in terms of what weapons they can use without losing AS (and before you mention con growths, I'll state that most units have pretty low ones with the exception of Marty - and the highest ones all happen to be on male units). How the hell is any of these okay???

Absolutely not! I refuse to involve myself with Jugdral when I have nothing to gain but a massive headache. Especially with bullshit like the fact that healing staves are able to miss, as well as fatigue. Not to mention the fact that I know I'm not gonna be able to enjoy it. Let us never speak of this again.

There's no point in speak of it again because you obviously don't know what you're talking about.

[Shadow Mir]

2 hours ago, Jotari said:

There's no point in speak of it again because you obviously don't know what you're talking about.

And because I think Jugdral is the devil. Also, I have different standards for what it means to be balanced... which Thracia flunks miserably. So I don't feel the need to waste my time playing a game I hate when I know I'm not gonna budge. Anyway, the last thread about most balanced game I saw was one where Thracia did rather poorly (it only got two votes).

[Jotari]

2 minutes ago, Levant Mir Celestia said:

And because I think Jugdral is the devil. Also, I have different standards for what it means to be balanced... which Thracia flunks miserably. So I don't feel the need to waste my time playing a game I hate when I know I'm not gonna budge. Anyway, the last thread about most balanced game I saw was one where Thracia did rather poorly (it only got two votes).

You're saying you hate something that you haven't even tried. The only reason Thracia ever does low on those polls is because less people have played it. If you look at the comments, you will find people pointing out how balanced it is.

[Shadow Mir]

1 hour ago, Jotari said:

You're saying you hate something that you haven't even tried. The only reason Thracia ever does low on those polls is because less people have played it. If you look at the comments, you will find people pointing out how balanced it is.

Because the stuff that makes it unique (fatigue, healing staves missing, permanent status effects) also makes it hard to play; I'd go so far as to say all of those, especially healing staves being able to miss, which I consider inexcusably bad game design, are more than enough to convince me Thracia's not worth playing, aka instant dealbreakers. The lack of characters I care about doesn't help matters. Nor does it that there's no guaranteed hit or miss, as well as the fact that the game actively punishes players who go in blind (see: the escape chapters, which are themselves another case of bad game design). And once again, I fail to see the claims that Thracia is balanced as anything other than a load of bollocks when it has mechanics that favor one set of units (male non-mages) while slapping others with an unfair disadvantage (mages in general, female non-mages).

[Jotari]

58 minutes ago, Levant Mir Celestia said:

Because the stuff that makes it unique (fatigue, healing staves missing, permanent status effects) also makes it hard to play; I'd go so far as to say all of those, especially healing staves being able to miss, which I consider inexcusably bad game design, are more than enough to convince me Thracia's not worth playing, aka instant dealbreakers. The lack of characters I care about doesn't help matters. Nor does it that there's no guaranteed hit or miss, as well as the fact that the game actively punishes players who go in blind (see: the escape chapters, which are themselves another case of bad game design). And once again, I fail to see the claims that Thracia is balanced as anything other than a load of bollocks when it has mechanics that favor one set of units (male non-mages) while slapping others with an unfair disadvantage (mages in general, female non-mages).

I'm not claiming Thracia has any way fair or balanced game design as a whole. There's a bunch of stuff in it that's outright trollish in design. But it's cast balance is not one of those things.

[Shadow Mir]

28 minutes ago, Jotari said:

I'm not claiming Thracia has any way fair or balanced game design as a whole. There's a bunch of stuff in it that's outright trollish in design. But it's cast balance is not one of those things.

And I would vehemently disagree there - just look at Dean and Eda. The latter is pretty much always doomed to be inferior to the former because he gets a personal weapon, and she gets bupkis. And this is ignoring the joining situation being Beruka vs Camilla, or Eda's being underleveled.

Edited April 13, 2018 by Levant Mir Celestia

[Jotari]

13 minutes ago, Levant Mir Celestia said:

And I would vehemently disagree there - just look at Dean and Eda. The latter is pretty much always doomed to be inferior to the former because he gets a personal weapon, and she gets bupkis. And this is ignoring the joining situation being Beruka vs Camilla, or Eda's being underleveled.

Look, this has already gone way off topic and you've proven yourself unfit to even have the conversation. You're cherry picking examples without any of the context the actual game provides.

[Shadow Mir]

30 minutes ago, Jotari said:

Look, this has already gone way off topic and you've proven yourself unfit to even have the conversation. You're cherry picking examples without any of the context the actual game provides.

It's still something that makes my blood boil with anger, as it's one of my biggest pet peeves regarding this series:

On 3/28/2018 at 4:11 PM, Levant Mir Celestia said:

I'd say destructive faithfulness (Shadow Dragon was enough for me to get agitated with this, and I hope no other remakes repeat that mistake), status staves (they're almost never as useful for the player as they are for the enemy), units that are outclassed by units you got earlier (I'm sick of all the Marisas, Wendys, and Sophias of FE; Binding Blade was especially bad about this), and plot-based promotions (far too often they're too late for the MC to catch up level wise; it's especially awful since most games practically mandate use of the main character to defeat the final boss).

Granted, those two join at the same time, but it still applies. And I had mentioned earlier in this topic that stuff like this is more likely to happen if reclassing is gone.

Edited April 13, 2018 by Levant Mir Celestia

[MyBoyHector]

Thracia is an odd child in that its still one of the games never hit the world market, being a japan only game, now while yes, people have made a great effort to translate it to English, holy war too. And unless your familiar or comfortable being able to patch the game (Physical or Rom), there are going to be a great deal of people who haven't played it. I myself haven't played it personally, though I've seen it streamed. While I will agree people with unique weapons tend to get favoured more, that doesn't make then an instant choice.

Take Shanan and Larcei for an example, While Shanan might have his super op Balmung on his side, I've seen Larcei go beyond what I'd call to be "Beyond Broken" with standard weapons. Now in Holy War, parentage can make a difference, but even with Shannan's op weapon and his stats, This Larcei would still give him a run for his money.
I could say the same for Awakening as well, if you go by the Canon pairing, Chrom and Sumia, and take reclassing out the window, Lucina vs Cynthia becomes scary. In my run, the Sister Duo was unrivalled by anyone in my game, Aether and Galeforce on them both, even if Lucina has Parallel Falchion, Cynthia would of one, and if you want to make it fair and give them both a spear, would be a bloody battle of Aether procs for all eternity.

Most people will take the option that seems more powerful, but some people (like myself) use a character because you like them. Regardless if the other person has a shiny weapon, (That's right Xander and Ryoma, you can sit on that bench, and you can damn well glue yourself to it! Silas and Hana ftw).

[Tsak]

On 4/12/2018 at 3:54 AM, Kammaru said:

Why should I have to earn a feature? You want to incentivize going through tedium to get choice? This seems...problematic and honestly antagonistic, as it really only serves those that don't want it. I'd just ignore a game that did this.  

idk this sort of falls under the same category as casual vs classic
I don't care about the feature in particular, but it does bring more people. is what it is

[Altrosa]

It took about 8 months for me to swallow my silly Fates favoritism to give SoV a shot, precisely because I felt off trying to voice an opinion when I hadn't invested any real time to it.. and I still generally didn't care for most of it, but found plenty of aspects I did, which was the exact same view I had before playing it. The only thing that happened different was that I started seeing the flaws in Fates more.

On 4/13/2018 at 8:24 PM, MyBoyHector said:

Most people will take the option that seems more powerful, but some people (like myself) use a character because you like them. Regardless if the other person has a shiny weapon, (That's right Xander and Ryoma, you can sit on that bench, and you can damn well glue yourself to it! Silas and Hana ftw).

I feel like this sums up what gives the reclassing based combat it's advantage. It gives players more agency as you can erase those disadvantages you have from using certain units over others. 

[NobodiePichu]

i wouldnt mind reclassing sticking around so long as they remove class level based skill acquisition, and locked certain skills to certain classes. also, no level resets.

personally, it sounds like the best compromise to me.