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General Weapon Refinery discussion/speculation/creation thread


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14 minutes ago, Zeo said:

I'd love a comparison of Berkut's Lance+ to Slim Lance. After the update, Florina only needs one QR to double which is pretty massive. I'd love to know how Berkut's Lance+ is still superior (offensively at least.)

I'm not seeing why Florina only needs 1 Quick Riposte to perform a follow-up attack.

I assume you mean against Lancebreaker. Slim Lance's refined effect negates the half of Lancebreaker that guarantees the opponent a follow-up attack, but not the half of Lancebreaker than prevents her follow-up attack.

 

Berkut's Lance+ [Res] gives Florina 45 Res, and a -Spd nature gives her 24 Spd. Running Distant Counter, Distant Def 3, and Quick Riposte 3 lets her charge an Iceberg in one round of combat that deals 25 damage, 28 damage under Fortify Fliers. Her 46 Atk with a +Atk nature is not stellar, but is more than enough to deal with most mages.

+0 Florina [+Atk, -Spd] (Berkut's Lance+ [Res], Iceberg, Distant Counter, Quick Riposte 3, Distant Def 3) +0/0/6/6 against +5 red and blue tomes with Raudhrblade+/Blarblade+ override, Fury 3 override, and +4/4/4/4 buffs gives her 32 wins and 3 draws (Winter Tharja, Sophia, Valentine Lyn). Against +5 green tomes with Gronnblade+ override, Fury 3 override, and +3/3/3/3 buffs, she gets 6 wins, 5 losses, and 5 draws, which is impressive.

With Dull Ranged 3 and Quick Riposte 3 instead of Quick Riposte 3 and Distant Def 3, she lands 14:0:2 against red (failing Henry and Winter Tharja), 16:0:3 against blue (failing Oliver, Lyn, and Reinhardt), and 10:0:6 against green.

She's not exactly in desperate need for more Atk.

 

42 minutes ago, Zeo said:

The other option for Ronin's Blade would be to merely include Vantage in it's base effect and remove the boost to stats. But the entire design of the weapon is for him to take advantage of Vantage, his base skill. It's not as if the player doesn't have the option to pursue other (albeit inferior) builds if they choose.

I'd still go for Slaying Edge or Wo Dao. The +5 HP and +4 Def or +4 Res help keep him alive longer (because his Spd is already absurd), and the faster or more damaging special skill activation covers for his damage output. Ideally, both builds would use Wrath 3 in the B slot.

 

45 minutes ago, Zeo said:

Same counter for Regal Blade's effect. It's limited to depending on the opponent and it's on a unit with a strict ceiling to his stats.

Zero access to natures means the unit always has the optimal nature and is not the handicap that you claim it is.

In the simplest example, Zephiel having 55/35/16/38/24 and being neutral all the time is not functionally different to Zephiel being 55/32/19/38/24 and [+Atk, -Spd] all the time.

Being locked to a neutral nature isn't a detriment to the unit's optimal performance, but a detriment to the unit's variability in builds. If every Grima that was pulled were [+Atk, -Spd], he would equally be locked to a single nature, but be no less absurdly powerful as a unit. It just means he gives up the ability to run builds that stack Def or Res as well as other builds that use a different nature for optimization.

Masked Marth isn't worse than Lucina because of being locked to a neutral nature. It's because her optimal stat spread is worse than Lucina's. A unit isn't functionally a set of neutral stats and a nature. A unit is functionally the set of stats that it has.

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@Zeo, a lot of characters have weapons that "belong" to them like Barst has Barst's Axe in New Mystery. Some of them aren't special like Barst's Axe and Ogma's Sword while others like Beruka's Axe and Selena's Blade are. It might be boring to call their weapons as "X's Weapon", but it does make naming them easier since they already exist and you can just look them up on the wikis.

Speaking of boring, Beruka's Axe could just be another legendary/personal Killer Axe and have +5 Def/Res when attacked or something as its unique effect. Maybe even a hybrid Breath effect if you really hate people.

Anyway, with Odin and Odin's Grimoire, its unique refinement being a Brave effect doesn't sit right. The idea of a 14 Mt Brave tome without any penalties except being on a unit with 22 neutral attack just seems absurd when every other default Brave weapon has lower Mt and a speed penalty even if they're not so much like Elincia's Amiti having 4 less Mt and -3 Spd instead of -5 or in Alm's case, can only be used at full health. Yes, you have to refine it to get the effect like with Alm's Falchion, but the point still stands. Brave weapons or weapons that gain Brave effects have an inherent penalty of some sort to balance them out. The other thing is with a =Atk Odin, he would have 36/32 offenses to =Atk Olwen's 35/29 offenses and +Atk Odin would have 39/32 offenses to +Atk Olwen's 39/29 offenses. It's easier to get Odin than it is to get Olwen, but Olwen wins offensively when she has easier access to stronger offensive buffs and more movement. She would lack his ability to have +6 attack when attacked and has to deal with -5 speed with Dire Thunder let alone being able to refine Dire Thunder, but Brave weapons are generally focused on offense, player phase rather than defense, enemy phase. Also, I think Blarblade Odin and definitely Blarblade Olwen would outperform Odin's Grimoire Odin since he'd gain a massive attack boost because of Blarblade at the cost of not being able to attack twice when initiating. And I should not even need to discuss how Reinhardt would outperform Odin's Grimoire Odin.

The other reason it doesn't sit right with me is what Odin's Grimoire does in Fates and who Odin is. In Fates, Odin's Grimoire is a variant of Mjolnir and they're both essentially Killer tomes and Odin's a very dramatic person who tends to name and announce his attacks. By itself, Odin's Grimoire having -1 special cooldown doesn't do much for him compared to Ishtar and anyone given Mjolnir assuming it ends up being a legendary Killer tome, but refinements can address that by giving him something special and that works for him. The only issue now is Odin's stats and would you be willing to give up Blarblade, Divine Dew, and whatever else just to get Odin's Grimoire. I doubt people would want to get Odin's Grimoire if its normal effect is -1 special cooldown even if its unique effect was a -blade effect. Essentially, having the penalty of -blade tomes reversed and having +1 Mt, but specials don't really matter for -blade mages much and you'd have to spend 800 SP, 500 Arena Medals, 200 Dew, and around 20k to 22k feathers on Odin just for, hypothetically, a better Blarblade+.

If you want an actual example of something that could be interesting...

Odin's Grimoire: "14 Mt. Accelerates Special trigger (cooldown count-1)."
Regular refinement upgrade: "Accelerates Special trigger (cooldown count-2)."
Unique refinement: "Grants +10 to damage when Special triggers."

Unfortunately, Dark Excalibur can't be upgraded, but its users have higher base offenses than Odin as Merric has 26/32 offenses and Sonya has 33/31. The other thing is they're both green mages, so they're not really competing with Odin, a blue mage. I would need to check how much damage Odin could get from activating a 2 charge special, namely Moonbow because it's his default special, every attack and a 3 charge special every round of attack, but if it's not that crazy, it could work as a fun, in-character weapon for Odin even if Blarblade+ ends up being more practical and less expensive to use.
 

Spoiler

Neutral Odin would have 43/36/32/25/25 with Odin's Grimoire, a 14 Mt tome.

With Moonbow:
15 Res: 35 damage
20 Res: 32 damage
25 Res: 28 damage
30 Res: 25 damage
35 Res: 21 damage

Moonbow looks like he'd just do "normal mage" damage since he'd effectively have 46 attack and treat his foe's resistance as being 30% less with each hit.

With Luna:
15 Res: 38 damage
20 Res: 36 damage
25 Res: 33 damage
30 Res: 31 damage
35 Res: 28 damage

Hypothetical situation with Regnal Astra aka if AyraxLissa:
15 Res: 43 damage
20 Res: 38 damage
25 Res: 33 damage
30 Res: 28 damage
35 Res: 23 damage

 

Edited by Kaden
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15 minutes ago, Kaden said:

when every other Brave weapon has lower Mt and a speed penalty

Alm's Falchion is a 16-Mt melee weapon that deals effective damage to dragons, grants Renewal 3, has 5 HP recoil when at full health, and only works at full health.

More Mt. No Spd penalty. On a unit with 33 base Atk. Only drawback is that it's only usable every other turn unless you glue a healer to him.

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@Zeo I don't think I really have the know-how to comment on things like balance and how broken weapons are, but I really like what you did with Oboro's weapon! I think more weapons should have a Guard special effect or something similar, especially with skills like Bold Fighter running rampant right now.

For Hinata, seems a bit weird with an unrefined weapon giving a HP boost but that's a nitpick. Def+3 is probably more thematic, and goes will the Oboro parallel (in Heroes anyway) of being tanky retainers for Takumi. Totally should be Vengeful Katana because that's an actual weapon in Fates haha.

Also like the reference with Tailtiu's weapon.

 

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45 minutes ago, Ice Dragon said:

Alm's Falchion is a 16-Mt melee weapon that deals effective damage to dragons, grants Renewal 3, has 5 HP recoil when at full health, and only works at full health.

More Mt. No Spd penalty. On a unit with 33 base Atk. Only drawback is that it's only usable every other turn unless you glue a healer to him.

Forgot about it, but as you noted, it has a penalty with its Brave effect and you would need to refine it to get the effect. Alm's Falchion only has a Brave effect when he's at full health and when its used, it immediately drops him out of that range with its recoil. You could time it right so that Alm heals on the next turn with Renewal and it has effective damage against dragons, but there's still a catch of some sort built into the weapon's Brave effect in addition to Alm's capabilities grounding him.

Zeo's idea for Odin's Grimoire is Brave effect on offense and Fierce Stance on defense on a full, 14 Mt tome. With the exception of its effects not working together, so Death Blow instead of Fierce Stance, it has no drawback of any sort, specifically with its Brave effect. The only thing holding it back is its user's low attack even though Odin's targeting resistance. Odin's Grimoire having Death Blow 3 and a 100% HP requirement Brave effect would sit better with me because its Brave effect would have some sort of penalty.

Edit: It just dawned on me that Odin with Odin's Grimoire and its Brave effect would essentially be a resistance-targeting, blue archer with 29/32 offenses. +Atk Odin would be a 32/32 offenses archer, Jeorge. It's not great, especially when -blade tomes exist, Olwen has been doing it and with access to cavalry buffs and movement, but he could do the same thing as other Brave ranged units.

Edited by Kaden
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18 minutes ago, Kaden said:

Forgot about it, but as you noted, it has a penalty with its Brave effect and you would need to refine it to get the effect. Alm's Falchion only has a Brave effect when he's at full health and when its used, it immediately drops him out of that range with its recoil. You could time it right so that Alm heals on the next turn with Renewal and it has effective damage against dragons, but there's still a catch of some sort built into the weapon's Brave effect in addition to Alm's capabilities grounding him.

You're exaggerating the effect of Falchion's penalty. Unless you're using a dancer (my play style doesn't use one), you only get one attack per turn anyways, so limiting yourself to one attack every two turns is not that big of a deal, considering you generally have downtime between rounds of combat anyways

 

19 minutes ago, Kaden said:

Zeo's idea for Odin's Grimoire is Brave effect on offense and Fierce Stance on defense on a full, 14 Mt tome.

According to his response to my original assessment of the weapon, he meant it to be Death Blow, not Fierce Stance.

 

20 minutes ago, Kaden said:

Edit: It just dawned on me that Odin with Odin's Grimoire and its Brave effect would essentially be a resistance-targeting, blue archer with 29/32 offenses. +Atk Odin would be a 32/32 offenses archer, Jeorge. It's not great, especially when -blade tomes exist, Olwen has been doing it and with access to cavalry buffs and movement, but he could do the same thing as other Brave ranged units.

Already did that comparison, too:

 

On 3/14/2018 at 9:44 AM, Ice Dragon said:

With a 20-Mt weapon (I don't know when you want the +6 Atk to be active), he'd only pull slightly ahead of Olwen, having the same Atk and 1 less Spd than a buffed Olwen if both are +Atk.

Basically, Odin [+Atk] (Odin's Grimoire [unique]) +4/4/0/0 would have an advantage of +4/3/0/0 relative to Olwen [+Atk] (Dire Thunder) +6/6/0/0.

So he'd basically just be a slightly better Olwen if Olwen is for whatever reason not running Blarblade+.

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22 minutes ago, Ice Dragon said:

You're exaggerating the effect of Falchion's penalty. Unless you're using a dancer (my play style doesn't use one), you only get one attack per turn anyways, so limiting yourself to one attack every two turns is not that big of a deal, considering you generally have downtime between rounds of combat anyways

I'm not exaggerating its penalty. I'm just saying and pointing out that of the current weapons and developer decisions so far, Brave weapons and Brave effects have some sort of penalty of some kind. I don't care how you mitigate it nor do I care what sort of penalty it is. I just care about the existence of a penalty. Odin's Grimoire could be 14 Mt and double its Mt or, fuck it, double Odin's total attack stat when initiating, but have -1 speed as its penalty and I'd be fine with it.

22 minutes ago, Ice Dragon said:

According to his response to my original assessment of the weapon, he meant it to be Death Blow, not Fierce Stance.

Well, now I'm reading things wrong. The original seemed to be a self buff or something, it was supposed to be Death Blow, and I somehow read it as Fierce Stance.

22 minutes ago, Ice Dragon said:

Already did that comparison, too:

So did I in my other post. I'm saying I realized that Odin would be equivalent to an archer with 29/32 offenses and if they targeted resistance and were subject to blue's weapon triangle interaction. The Odin, Olwen thing was noted before.

Edited by Kaden
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2 minutes ago, Kaden said:

I'm not exaggerating its penalty. I'm just saying and pointing out that of the current weapons and developer decisions so far, Brave weapons and Brave effects have some sort of penalty of some kind. I don't care how you mitigate it nor do I care what sort of penalty it is. I just care about the existence of a penalty.

Odin's Grimoire's penalty is entirely the fact that it's locked to Odin. I think that's plenty enough of a penalty.

 

4 minutes ago, Kaden said:

Odin's Grimoire could be 14 Mt and double its Mt or, fuck it, double Odin's total attack stat when initiating, but have -1 speed as its penalty and I'd be fine with it.

Now you're just being dumb. Having a penalty for the sake of having a penalty is pointless and dumb.

Let's just have the weapon give you +1 base Spd and -1 Spd in combat as a penalty. Does fucking nothing but is a penalty. What the fuck was the fucking point? I'm done swearing now.

But, no, seriously, what's the point of having a penalty for the sake of having a penalty?

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40 minutes ago, Ice Dragon said:

Odin's Grimoire's penalty is entirely the fact that it's locked to Odin. I think that's plenty enough of a penalty.

I am only going off of what the developers are doing and looking at it from why they did it. Generic Brave weapons, Amiti, Dire Thunder, and Alm's Falchion have some sort of limitation to them because the Brave effect is a powerful one. Anyone can see that when you can hit twice per attack. The developer's ways of grounding them were reduced Mt and speed penalties for the generic Brave weapons, Amiti, and Dire Thunder and Alm's Falchion's health requirement which also makes it function like Double Lion or any combat art where you spend health to use them in SoV.

This does not mean what the developers do is absolute, correct, good, or whatever. It is simply that whenever I consider thinking up of something for any game, I take into consideration what has been done by the developers. I guess you could say I'm using them as a template as much as I want to analyze and understand their decisions and design and approach ideas from their point of view and reasoning. Where this comes from, why I do this, I don't know. Maybe it's just because of a traumatic experience of seeing terrible, questionable character design of a special blue bastard bird.

40 minutes ago, Ice Dragon said:

Now you're just being dumb. Having a penalty for the sake of having a penalty is pointless and dumb.

The point of that sentence was to be dumb.

Edited by Kaden
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15 hours ago, Zeo said:

Gen 2 *NEW*Icon Portrait Barst.pngIcon Portrait Selena.pngIcon Portrait Hinata.pngIcon Portrait Oboro.pngIcon Portrait Hector.pngIcon Portrait Serra.pngIcon Portrait Laslow.pngIcon Portrait Beruka.pngIcon Portrait Camilla.pngIcon Portrait Raigh.pngIcon Portrait Tailtiu.pngIcon Portrait Draug.png

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Barst Icon Portrait Barst.png

  • Hero's Axe: MT - 11 - SPD -3, Attack twice when initiating combat.
  • Refinement: HP +3, If unit's HP > 90% at start of turn, unit can move 1 extra space.

Selena Icon Portrait Selena.png

  • Loyalist Blade: MT - 16 - Spd+3, During combat, If foe's ATK > unit's ATK +5, unit is granted +5 ATK and foe suffers -5 ATK.
  • Refinement: During combat, for every ally within 2 spaces, unit is granted +3 Def/Res.

Hinata Icon Portrait Hinata.png

  • Vengeful Blade: MT - 16 - HP + 5, if, Unit automatically makes a follow-up attack if attacked at HP > 80%.
  • RefinementUnit automatically makes a follow-up attack if attacked at HP ≥ 70%. If unit's special triggers based on a Def/Res percentage reduction, an additional 20% reduction is added to the value.

Oboro Icon Portrait Oboro.png 

  • Oboro's Spear: MT -16 - Def+3, If foe uses sword, lance, axe, or dragonstone, neutralizes foe's bonuses (from skills like Fortify, Rally, etc.) during combat.
  • Refinement: If unit's HP is ≥ 50% at start of combat, enemy is inflicted with Special cooldown charge -1. (If using other similar skill, only highest value applied.)

Hector Icon Portrait Hector.png

  • Armads: MT - 16 - Unit makes a guaranteed follow-up attack when attacked at HP ≥ 80%.
  • Refinement: HP +3, If unit's HP ≥ 70% and foe initiates combat, unit makes a guaranteed follow-up attack.
    Grants Special cooldown charge +1 per attack. (Does not stack.)

Serra Icon Portrait Serra.png

  • Hammerine: MT - 14 - At start of each turn, Grants ATK/SPD +4 to unit and allies within 2 spaces for 1 turn. Grants Allies within 2 spaces ATK+3 During combat. 
  • Refinement: Wrathful/Dazzling

LaslowIcon Portrait Laslow.png

  • Dancing Blade: MT - 16 - If foe uses sword, lance or axe, damage calculated using the lower of foe's Def or Res.
  • Refinement: If unit kills an enemy, the nearest ally will be refreshed. (once per turn.)

Camilla Icon Portrait Camilla.png

  • Camilla's Axe: MT - 16 - If unit's HP > 50%, enables all allies to warp adjacent to unit. Every turn, foe with the highest HP suffers 7 damage.
  • Refinement: If unit initiates combat, foe cannot make a followup attack.

BerukaIcon Portrait Beruka.png 

  • Golem Axe: MT - 16 - Def +3Grants +6 Def if this unit is attacked.
  • Refinement: HP +3, Grants this unit protection from arrows.

RaighIcon Portrait Raigh.png 

  • Apocalypse: MT - 14 - Res +3If unit's special triggers based on unit's attack, special cooldown -2 at start of turn 1.
  • Refinement: At start of turn 3, if Unit's HP = 100%, all enemy units with 3 or lower Res than unit suffer -20 damage and -5 to all stats. 

TailtiuIcon Portrait Tailtiu.png

  • Mjolnir: MT - 14 - Atk +3Accelerates Special Trigger -1
  • Refinement: Grants +10 damage when special triggers.

DraugIcon Portrait Draug.png

  • Titan Blade: MT - 16 - During combat, if foe initiates, unit receives 50% less damage from the first attack.
  • Refinement: If unit's Special triggers based on a foe's attack, Special cooldown count-2 at start of turn 1.
    Unit takes 10 less damage when Special triggers.

Barst: I don't think that -3 speed instead of -2 makes up for the extra movement. If you want to keep the -3 spd then bump up the weapon's might by 1. You could make the weapon have a health threshold requirement for a brave effect like Alm's, but it doesn't have to be 100%. Instead of extra movement, you could go for a flier formation. With a hp threshold requirement of course.

Selena: How about instead of a spd +3 and sturdy blow 3.5, you make it swift sparrow? Make the refinement give 2, not 3, since you're bumping up the owltome range to 2 spaces. Not giving atk and spd makes up for the range, but not the extra points in def and res.

Hinata: The HP effect is odd. Save it for the refinement. QR 4 is the limit for the threshold which I would give (glad you didn't go further). The +20% effect is a bit too much. Tone it down to 10%

Oboro: Make the guard effect 80%

Hector: Vengeful Fighter effect is a bit too much. Have it be at 80% hp threshold

Serra: While I do like the buffing effect, I feel like it doesn't do the the kind of gimmicks that all the other staffs do. Otherwise it's pretty okay

Laslow: You already mentioned dancer's veil so it's okay for now

Camilla: The damage effect could be a at start of turn all foes within 2 spaces take 7 damage. WoM effect is too powerful. Since Camilla is a mixed tank, maybe you could do something that uses her mixed bulk. The whole weapon is just a bunch of abilities thrown together. I get that you're trying for a flier support effect, but I can't really tell why I would use her over my other axe fliers.

Beruka: Remove extra def effect, steady stance is enough. Iote shield is a nice touch

Raigh: You went and did something monstrous. While Apocalypse is indeed weird in it's original game, you went ahead and caused an apocalypse to happen on the map. It's refinement is too powerful. Try to nerf it somehow. Otherwise I can take as many Raighs as I want into BHB or GHB and cheese them (if I can gather the dew). Perhaps you should focus on the spell animation for inspiration, rather than the tome's name

Tailtiu: Lore... She can never use it unless she timetravels 6000 years into the future only to get a weaker version of it. Maybe give her a wrath tome with built-in fury. Then again, time and space doesn't matter in Heroes so she could use a weaker Mjolnir

Draugr: Make the primary effect that he takes 30% less damage from the first attack melee combat. Shield pulse effect should stay at -4 damage

 

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@Zeo Reviews on set 2.

General: As a minor nitpick, I think that weapons using existing mechanics should use the wording that skills with those mechanics use, unless that wording is unclear.

Barst: Movement is too big of a boost to give to anything but armors, imo.

Selena: I'd say the refined Def/Res bonus should be bumped down to +2.

Hinata: It seems fine, off the top of my head, though I admittedly don't use many defensive specials. Why didn't you name it Venge Katana?

Oboro: I see no reason that Oboro deserves to have the Guard threshold changed to 50%. Otherwise, I like it.

Hector: The Special cooldown charge bonus is when attacked only, right? If so, that seems fine to me.

Serra: That's too strong. Atk/Spd+4 to allies within 2 spaces is way too powerful to begin with, and Drive Atk on top of that? As a nitpick, it's also nothing like Hammerne.

Laslow: On your update, I'm not seeing how it's all that different from "nearest ally will be refreshed" - either effect can be forced by moving only one ally before Laslow. I get that you're trying to be innovative with these, but I don't think he should get a refreshing effect at all. I'm also not sure why he deserves a target-lower-defensive-stat effect.

Camilla: I don't think this makes her a better unit. The base effect is gimmicky, and I don't think preventing foes from following up is a particularly useful skill for Player Phase units.

Beruka: Fits her perfectly. See nitpick listed in "General" for the refinement.

Raigh: Looks ok to me.

Tailtiu: Why does she need a legendary weapon, again? She's plenty strong as it is. As for the weapon itself, it seems fine.

Draug: The first hit mitigation is way too high, given that it's universally applicable. As an Awakening analogy, you've given him Pavise+ and Aegis+ for the first enemy hit. There's also no problem with just using Shield Pulse as the refinement. You didn't have to jack it up a few hypothetical levels to make it viable (same situation as Oboro, really).

Edited by LordFrigid
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On 3/16/2018 at 8:33 AM, Zeo said:

Big update to my post. First off, the groups will be separated into Generations. With my first 12 (one newly added) characters as "Gen 1"

  1. Roy: Slight nerf to weapon's base skill.
  2. Fir: Overhaul on refinement.
  3. Rebecca: Overhaul on refinement.
  4. Florina: Buff on refinement.
  5. Lillina: nerf to base effect. Buff to refinement.
  6. Bartre: Complete overhaul
  7. Lon'Qu: Nerf to refinement.
  8. Arthur: Colossal buff to refinement.
  9. Lloyd: Slight nerf to base effect after refinement.
  10. Added Ursula.

Next, added Gen 2 with these units: Icon Portrait Barst.pngIcon Portrait Selena.pngIcon Portrait Hinata.pngIcon Portrait Oboro.pngIcon Portrait Hector.pngIcon Portrait Serra.pngIcon Portrait Laslow.pngIcon Portrait Beruka.pngIcon Portrait Camilla.pngIcon Portrait Raigh.pngIcon Portrait Tailtiu.pngIcon Portrait Draug.png

Unfortunately, I'm not allowed to edit my post for some reason. I don't know, I think this is a glitch with the forum or something but I haven't been able to edit even moderately sized posts recently for one reason or another. So I'm going to post again in spoilers.

Well. Guess I'll do this too.

Gen 1Icon Portrait Matthew.pngIcon Portrait Odin.pngIcon Portrait Roy.pngIcon Portrait Fir.png Icon Portrait Rebecca.png Icon Portrait Florina.pngIcon Portrait Lilina.pngIcon Portrait Bartre.pngIcon Portrait Lon'qu.pngIcon Portrait Arthur.pngIcon Portrait Lloyd.pngIcon Portrait Ursula.png

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MatthewIcon Portrait Matthew.png

  • Leila's Keepsake: MT - 14 - After combat, if unit attacked, inflicts Atk/Def-6 on foe and units within 2 spaces through their next actions. Grants unit and allies with in 2 spaces Atk/Def+6 for 1 turn.
  • Refinement: If unit's HP > 25% Foe's damage is calculated using the higher of unit's Def or Res.

OdinIcon Portrait Odin.png

  • Odin's Grimoire: MT - 14 - During combat, if unit attacked, unit is granted +6 ATK.
  • Refinement: If unit initiates attack, unit attacks consecutively. (Brave Weapon effect)

Roy Icon Portrait Roy.png

  • Blinding Blade: MT - 16 - Grants +4 Def/Res when this unit is attacked.
  • Refinement: +3 HP, Unit can counterattack regardless of distance to attacker.

FirIcon Portrait Fir.png

  • Fir's Katana: MT - 16 Grants Res+3, Accelerates Special Trigger -1
  • Refinement: If foe uses staff, magic or dragonstone , unit is granted +4 RES during combat. Also grants Special cooldown charge +1 per attack.

Rebecca Icon Portrait Rebecca.png

  • Reinfleche: MT - 14 - If foe's Def > unit's Def +3, unit is granted +7 ATK during combat.
  • Refinement: If foe's Def > unit's Def +3, unit is granted an additional attack during combat. (MAX of 3 attacks per combat).

Florina Icon Portrait Florina.png

  • Slim Lance: MT - 16 - Grants +3 Res, if unit's Res > foe's Res +1, grants special cooldown charge +1.
  • Refinement: Prevents follow-up attacks in combat from foes if unit's HP ≥ 50%.

Lillina Icon Portrait Lilina.png

  • Forblaze: MT - 14 - Effective damage vs Dragons and Fliers.
  • Refinement: If unit has AoE Special equipped, Grants +10 damage when special triggers. Unit is also granted +1 cooldown per attack.

Bartre Icon Portrait Bartre.png

  • Devil Axe: MT - 16 - If unit has HP based special equipped, damage is calculated using an additional 30% of damage suffered. Unit loses 6 HP after combat.
  • Refinement: If unit's HP ≥ 50% and unit initiates combat, unit makes a guaranteed follow-up attack. Grants Special cooldown charge +1 per attack. (Does not stack.)

Lon'QuIcon Portrait Lon'qu.png

  • Ronin's Blade: MT - 16 - If attacked, unit is granted +4 ATK/SPD during combat.
  • Refinement: During combat, if unit attacked first using Vantage, followup occurs immediately after unit's attack. 

Arthur Icon Portrait Arthur.png

  • Justice Axe: MT - 16 Gives Atk+20% if weapon-triangle advantage, Atk-20% if disadvantage.
  • Refinement: If affinity disadvantage exists, weapon triangle affinity granted by unit's weapon is reversed.

Lloyd Icon Portrait Lloyd.png

  • Regal Blade: MT - 16 - If foe's HP is 100% when combat starts, unit receives Atk/Spd+2 during combat.
  • Refinement: If foe's HP is 100% when combat starts, unit receives Atk/Spd/Def/Res+3 during combat. If foe uses sword, unit makes a guaranteed followup attack and foe cannot.

Ursula Icon Portrait Ursula.png

  • Bolting: MT - 16 - ATK +3, SPD -3
  • Refinement: Unit and foes cannot counterattack.

Gen 2 *NEW*Icon Portrait Barst.pngIcon Portrait Selena.pngIcon Portrait Hinata.pngIcon Portrait Oboro.pngIcon Portrait Hector.pngIcon Portrait Serra.pngIcon Portrait Laslow.pngIcon Portrait Beruka.pngIcon Portrait Camilla.pngIcon Portrait Raigh.pngIcon Portrait Tailtiu.pngIcon Portrait Draug.png

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Barst Icon Portrait Barst.png

  • Hero's Axe: MT - 11 - SPD -3, Attack twice when initiating combat.
  • Refinement: HP +3, If unit's HP > 90% at start of turn, unit can move 1 extra space.

Selena Icon Portrait Selena.png

  • Loyalist Blade: MT - 16 - Spd+3, During combat, If foe's ATK > unit's ATK +5, unit is granted +5 ATK and foe suffers -5 ATK.
  • Refinement: During combat, for every ally within 2 spaces, unit is granted +3 Def/Res.

Hinata Icon Portrait Hinata.png

  • Vengeful Blade: MT - 16 - HP + 5, if, Unit automatically makes a follow-up attack if attacked at HP > 80%.
  • RefinementUnit automatically makes a follow-up attack if attacked at HP ≥ 70%. If unit's special triggers based on a Def/Res percentage reduction, an additional 20% reduction is added to the value.

Oboro Icon Portrait Oboro.png 

  • Oboro's Spear: MT -16 - Def+3, If foe uses sword, lance, axe, or dragonstone, neutralizes foe's bonuses (from skills like Fortify, Rally, etc.) during combat.
  • Refinement: If unit's HP is ≥ 50% at start of combat, enemy is inflicted with Special cooldown charge -1. (If using other similar skill, only highest value applied.)

Hector Icon Portrait Hector.png

  • Armads: MT - 16 - Unit makes a guaranteed follow-up attack when attacked at HP ≥ 80%.
  • Refinement: HP +3, If unit's HP ≥ 70% and foe initiates combat, unit makes a guaranteed follow-up attack.
    Grants Special cooldown charge +1 per attack. (Does not stack.)

Serra Icon Portrait Serra.png

  • Hammerine: MT - 14 - At start of each turn, Grants ATK/SPD +4 to unit and allies within 2 spaces for 1 turn. Grants Allies within 2 spaces ATK+3 During combat. 
  • Refinement: Wrathful/Dazzling

LaslowIcon Portrait Laslow.png

  • Dancing Blade: MT - 16 - If foe uses sword, lance or axe, damage calculated using the lower of foe's Def or Res.
  • Refinement: If unit kills an enemy, the nearest ally will be refreshed. (once per turn.)

Camilla Icon Portrait Camilla.png

  • Camilla's Axe: MT - 16 - If unit's HP > 50%, enables all allies to warp adjacent to unit. Every turn, foe with the highest HP suffers 7 damage.
  • Refinement: If unit initiates combat, foe cannot make a followup attack.

BerukaIcon Portrait Beruka.png 

  • Golem Axe: MT - 16 - Def +3Grants +6 Def if this unit is attacked.
  • Refinement: HP +3, Grants this unit protection from arrows.

RaighIcon Portrait Raigh.png 

  • Apocalypse: MT - 14 - Res +3If unit's special triggers based on unit's attack, special cooldown -2 at start of turn 1.
  • Refinement: At start of turn 3, if Unit's HP = 100%, all enemy units with 3 or lower Res than unit suffer -20 damage and -5 to all stats. 

TailtiuIcon Portrait Tailtiu.png

  • Mjolnir: MT - 14 - Atk +3Accelerates Special Trigger -1
  • Refinement: Grants +10 damage when special triggers.

DraugIcon Portrait Draug.png

  • Titan Blade: MT - 16 - During combat, if foe initiates, unit receives 50% less damage from the first attack.
  • Refinement: If unit's Special triggers based on a foe's attack, Special cooldown count-2 at start of turn 1.
    Unit takes 10 less damage when Special triggers.

Gen 3 (Coming Soon) - Icon Portrait Henry.pngIcon Portrait Jagen.pngIcon Portrait Seth.pngIcon Portrait Stahl.pngIcon Portrait Sully.pngIcon Portrait Gaius.pngIcon Portrait Ogma.pngIcon Portrait Saizo.png ? ? ? ?

 @Ice Dragon @XRay @Astellius @LordFrigid @Hawk King @mcsilas @Poimagic @Rafiel's Aria @mampfoid @Johann @eclipse @Fei Mao

@silveraura25

Check em out again.

I think I will just stick with ranged units since that is what I have most experience with.

Matthew: Do you mean calculating using Matthew's Def/Res or the foes's Def/Res? If it is Matthew's stats, I do not think it makes sense to switch from his Atk to his Def since his Atk could still be comparable to his Def (with Weapon equipped, Refinement, etc.), so if his Atk is higher, then Matthew would be dealing less damage.

Odin: I love Brave tomes.

Rebecca: I agree with @LordFrigid that the original effect is better. I think one way to work around the awkward Def requirement is to give Rebecca more HP in her Refinement. Since HP is generally the worst boon in Heroes, creating a situation where +HP is preferred over +Def/Res and make that viable sounds cool. If that is not viable enough, then maybe just stick Triple Riposte on to the original effect too.

Lilina: Ooh! Dragons AND Fliers! Sounds fun.

Ursula: I am going to disagree with others on this one. I would rather have a 11 Mt Firesweep tome rather than a 14 Mt tome with Speed -5. I prefer to double things rather than one hit killing things, since one hit killing things is not as reliable in my opinion. Speed -5 is giving an easy pass to players running against your defense team as the vast majority of units have no trouble tanking one hit. Players should have no problem tanking a blue Firesweep weapon since it can be cock blocked by the color triangle and plenty of Def/Res stacking skills exist.

Serra: That would put Delthea, BH!Lucina, and Sanaki out of business! Eirika and Ephraim got combat related buffs so they are fine. I do not think nerfing Serra's effect is the right direction though, so I would rather just see Delthea and BH!Lucina get better effects later on. Sanaki already got an upgrade, but the upgrade is underwhelming since it forces her to run with a flier ally.

Raigh: That seems pretty reasonable, although I am a little bit iffy on enemies suffering -20 damage since that is a double edged sword as it can trigger Vantage enemies. I personally would not run it simply because it is too risky in my opinion, similar to FH!Takumi.

Tailtiu: Looks good, although I prefer the Weapon to be on another character instead because she already got an awesome Weapon called Blárblade. Or, you know, make Blárblade Refinable with those effects. That is totally not broken.

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I don't think the devs should give Roy a DC weapon, since he would still have trouble standing out in a metagame filled w/ DC sword units, especially since the player has to waste divine dew on him to even get distant counter.

I think it would be better if he got an effect that expanded on his weapons original effect, such as decreasing the damage of the enemies first attack by 50% during the enemy phase and granting him a Recover Ring passive effect. This would help Roy carve a niche as a decent enemy phase sword unit, with the recover ring effect helping him stand out. It would let him more frequently hit the necessary threshold to use skills like swordbreaker or Quick Riposte and making him  much easier character to use in in-game modes such as tempest trial.

Edited by FoxyGrandpa
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@Zeo Your idea for Selena seems like it'll help her out since her attack is pretty low.  Giving Barst +1 Mov seems like a pretty neat idea to separate other brave users, and giving Tailtu another weapon is pretty cool even though she's already good with Blade Tome like the others stated. Curious what you have in mind for Jagen

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  • 2 weeks later...

@Ice Dragon Need your criticism, please. Too weak? Overpowered? Or okay?

Mae

  • Seraphim (14 Mt)At the start of each turn, inflicts Res-7 on foe on the enemy team with the highest Res through its next action.
  • RefinementIf unit has 100% HP at the start of combat, unit receives Atk/Spd+4. If attacking, unit will receive 4 damage after combat.

Shanna

  • Maltet (16 Mt)Accelerates Special trigger (cooldown count-1).
  • RefinementAt start of turn, all foes in cardinal directions with Res 1 or more lower than the unit on your team with the highest Res suffer Spd/Def-3 until the end of foe's next action.

Titania

  • Labrys (16 Mt)- Effective against cavalry and armored foes.
  • RefinementFoe's damage calculated using the higher of unit's Def or Res.

Lachesis

  • Earth Staff (12 Mt)Restores HP = 50% of damage dealt. Damage from unit's staff will be calculated the same as other weapons.
  • Refinement- After combat, if unit attacked, grants Atk/Spd/Def/Res+4 to allies adjacent to unit for 1 turn.
Edited by silveraura25
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@silveraura25

Seraphim:
Looks fine, though it doesn't really tie in with the original weapon's effect. I think the biggest liberty currently taken with a weapon's effect is in the effects for Sol Katti, Armads, and Berserk Armads, though their effects either make perfect sense for the wielder (and not the weapon) or fit the weapon's lore (and not the weapon's stats).

Maltet:
A Ploy that works off of the highest Res on your entire team instead of your own Res feels like cheating.

Labrys:
The more I think about it, the less I'm sold on a skill effect that allows you to completely ignore the existence of one of your stats.

Earth Staff:
Underpowered. That's partly because Lachesis's direct competition is Genny, who has 3 more Atk and 4 more Res with the same Spd, and partly because Lachesis's stat distribution is poor for the skill effects you're proposing.

This is a problem for a lot of reasons:

  1. Genny with Gravity+ or Candlelight+ will hit harder than Lachesis with Earth Staff.
  2. Gravity+ and Candlelight+ have arguably better effects than Absorb and unrefined Light Breath.
  3. Genny can run the more available (and her default) Wrathful Staff because she has access to Dazzling Staff on her weapon, whereas Lachesis is forced to run the much less available Dazzling Staff.
  4. Lachesis is slow. Not running Dazzling Staff is not really an option because she'll die.
  5. Buffs gained on enemy phase do not carry over to the next player phase (because all buffs expire at the beginning of player phase), meaning Lachesis is forced to apply buffs on player phase where she will die to counterattacks if she doesn't run Dazzling Staff because her self-heal happens before both of the opponent's counterattacks.
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So what do you think Nameless Blade and Forblaze will do/have, and what refinements do you think are coming on the Binding Blade and Regal Blade?

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5 hours ago, Ice Dragon said:

@silveraura25

Seraphim:
Looks fine, though it doesn't really tie in with the original weapon's effect. I think the biggest liberty currently taken with a weapon's effect is in the effects for Sol Katti, Armads, and Berserk Armads, though their effects either make perfect sense for the wielder (and not the weapon) or fit the weapon's lore (and not the weapon's stats).

Maltet:
A Ploy that works off of the highest Res on your entire team instead of your own Res feels like cheating.

Labrys:
The more I think about it, the less I'm sold on a skill effect that allows you to completely ignore the existence of one of your stats.

Earth Staff:
Underpowered. That's partly because Lachesis's direct competition is Genny, who has 3 more Atk and 4 more Res with the same Spd, and partly because Lachesis's stat distribution is poor for the skill effects you're proposing.

This is a problem for a lot of reasons:

  1. Genny with Gravity+ or Candlelight+ will hit harder than Lachesis with Earth Staff.
  2. Gravity+ and Candlelight+ have arguably better effects than Absorb and unrefined Light Breath.
  3. Genny can run the more available (and her default) Wrathful Staff because she has access to Dazzling Staff on her weapon, whereas Lachesis is forced to run the much less available Dazzling Staff.
  4. Lachesis is slow. Not running Dazzling Staff is not really an option because she'll die.
  5. Buffs gained on enemy phase do not carry over to the next player phase (because all buffs expire at the beginning of player phase), meaning Lachesis is forced to apply buffs on player phase where she will die to counterattacks if she doesn't run Dazzling Staff because her self-heal happens before both of the opponent's counterattacks.

Thanks for the feedback

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1 hour ago, Diovani Bressan said:

I still waiting for a refinement for the Askr Trio and the Blessed Lance for Azura.
 

Dancers really don't need that much of a boost since already being a dancer makes you a top tier unit. New weapons are meant for those that are considered to have a bad statspread, powercrept the hell out of by newer units or just forgotten because they aren't that remarkable nor unremarkable.

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Hawkeye
Berserk Tomahawk

Effect - 16 Mt. Unit can initiate combat from 2 spaces away, but can only counter at melee range. 

Weapon Refinery - HP +3, Brash Assault 3

 

Anna

Noatun

Weapon Refinery - HP + 3, Escape Route 3 (From Escape Route 2)

Refinery Skill - Life and Death 3

 

Alphonse

Folkvangr

Weapon Refinery - HP +3, Brazen Attack/Def 3 (from Defiant Attack 2)

Refinery Skill - Victory or Defeat (Atk/Def +5, Spd/Res -5)

 

Shareena

Fensalir

Weapon Refinery - HP +3, Threaten Attack/Def 2 (from Threaten Attack 2)

Refinery Skill - Infantry Pulse 3

 

Virion

Longbow

Effect - 14 Mt. Unit can attack from 3 spaces away, but cannot counterattack or follow-up. 

Refinery - Accelerates special trigger (cooldown count -1.)

 

Titania

Urvan

Effect - 16 Mt. Accelerates Special trigger (cooldown count-1). 

Refinery - Mourning Glory (unit gains atk/spd/def/res +2 during combat for each ally below 75% HP, excluding unit). 

 

Robin

Grima's Bane

Effect - 14 Mt. Effective against Dragons.

Refinery Skill - Foe's bonuses from skills (fortify, rally, etc) are nullified during combat.

 

Jakob

Jakob's Dagger

Effect - 14 Mt. After combat, if unit attacked, inflicts Def/Res-7 on target and foes within 2 spaces of target through their next actions. Healing Pulse (at the start of every turn, unit and allies within 2 spaces are healed for 5 hp). 

Refinery - Fury 3

 

Corrin (Male)

Yato

Refinery - HP +3. Swift Sparrow 2 (From Darting Blow 2). 

Refinery Skill - Desperation 3

 

Niles

Niles' Bow

Effect - Mt 14. Accelerates Special Trigger (Cooldown Count -1). 

Refinery - HP +3. Enchanted Blade 3 (If unit's Res - Foe's Res is greater than or equal to 1, unit gains Special cooldown charge +1 per attack. If using other similar skill, only highest value applied). 

 

Innes

Nidhogg

Refinery Skill - Mirror Stance 2

 

Saizo

Flame Shuriken

Effect - Mt 14. After combat, if unit attacked, inflicts Def/Res-7 on target and foes within 2 spaces of target through their next actions. This weapon deals damage to foe's Resistance instead of Defense. Accelerates special trigger (Cooldown Count -1). 

Refinery Skill - Blood Moon (when special triggers, ignore 20% of target's def/res). 

 

Seth

Paragon Blade

Effect - Mt 16. At start of turn, allies below 50% (not including unit) within 2 spaces gain +3 to atk/spd/def/res through their next actions.

Refinery - HP +3. Aggressive Strategy (for allies within 2 spaces, if ally's movement type is different from unit's movement type, ally gains Spd/Atk +4 during combat). 

 

Edited by Etheus
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@Etheus I hope you don't mind if I give my opinion on your weapons.

Hawkeye: DC weapons as new weapons aren't something I can see them doing because it'll trigger those that sacrificed a Hector on him

Anna: Pretty okay. Double fury will allow her to drop into ER range. Though I don't know if they'll have different weapons share the same refinements. I somehow get the feeling Noatun will receive the Byrnhildr treatment

Alfonse: Defiant attack is so goddamn worthless. Brazen would much better. I'm unsure of BA. Perhaps bold fighter instead. Problem with Alfonse is that you have to allow him to take damage first, most likely in the enemy phase, assuming he doesn't die from getting doubled. So making him player phase would make him more useful

Sharena: Too weak. Make threaten atk evolve into a double threaten (both at tier 2). For the refinement option infantry pulse would be quite nice since her HP will receive a boost from the refinement.

Virion: too OP. Firesweep and 3 range for attacks is way too powerful. 3 range is way too broken already. You're also adding deathblow which makes this weapon beyond broken. Try to tone down the effects and make the weapon have much greater drawbacks.

Urvan: I can't remember who said it, but someone mentioned Titania has to have Urvan. Bad idea to just copy paste a weapon from a unit whose stat spread is very different from the other. But you could make a Urvan with the Siegmund(Flame)/Armads(Berserk) treatment. Keep the cooldown effect and add something else for refinement

Robin: Weapon triangle advantage against colorless is strong enough already. Adding dragon effectiveness makes this broken

Jakob: dunno how I feel about pulsing blow. I'll write about it later

Corrin: Fine

Niles: Pretty okay

Innes: Also okay

I'll write about the rest later.

 

 

 

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4 hours ago, silveraura25 said:

@Etheus I hope you don't mind if I give my opinion on your weapons.

Virion: too OP. Firesweep and 3 range for attacks is way too powerful. 3 range is way too broken already. You're also adding deathblow which makes this weapon beyond broken. Try to tone down the effects and make the weapon have much greater drawbacks.

Actually, Virion's longbow wouldn't come with Firesweep. It prevents him from counter-attacking, not the foe. So, as compared to a firesweep bow, it would have greater range at the tradeoff of being vulnerable to melee units with distant counter effects (which would be increased to 3 range to consistently allow this skill to "counter foes regardless of range"). The Death Blow modifier helps to make up for Virion's low Attack stat, though another refine could be chosen.

Edited by Etheus
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1 hour ago, Etheus said:

Actually, Virion's longbow wouldn't come with Firesweep. It prevents him from counter-attacking, not the foe. So, as compared to a firesweep bow, it would have greater range at the tradeoff of being vulnerable to melee units with distant counter effects (which would be increased to 3 range to consistently allow this skill to "counter foes regardless of range"). The Death Blow modifier helps to make up for Virion's low Attack stat, though another refine could be chosen.

It's still firesweep if he attacks from three spaces away which he would if given the chance since that's the desired outcome. Only CC and DC can counterattack. That range is insanely good against mages and other frail ranged units

Edited by silveraura25
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