General Weapon Refinery discussion/speculation/creation thread

[Fabulously Olivier]

11 minutes ago, Tenzen12 said:

That's why it has catch, plus those who gave him close counter can't run TA on him.

Well, given Robin is as cheap as dirt, there should be no problem just sacrifice one to recycle CC and build new one. 

TA is in itself a bit of a questionable skill. They basically destroyed his main build by introducing Cancel Affinity (a skill which quite frankly should not exist), which most of the colorless units Robin is designed to counter now take as part of their recommended build. When coupled with the new existence of colored bows, Raven tomes are simply not what they used to be anymore.

It seems to me that for a Raven Tome to be useful as the primary effect of his prf weapon, it either has to come with an upgrade that gives him a strong enough enemy phase alternative to TA (like Owl tome effect), effective damage against Bows, Dull Ranged, or a similar skill that allows him to reliably tank enemy phase.

[Ice Dragon]

52 minutes ago, Tenzen12 said:

That's why it has catch, plus those who gave him close counter can't run TA on him.

Well, given Robin is as cheap as dirt, there should be no problem just sacrifice one to recycle CC and build new one. 

My +10 Robin (M) [+Spd, -Res] (Blarraven+, Reposition, Bonfire, Close Counter, Quick Riposte 3, Spur Def 3) is most definitely not cheap as dirt to use as skill fodder.

[Tenzen12]

58 minutes ago, Etheus said:

TA is in itself a bit of a questionable skill. They basically destroyed his main build by introducing Cancel Affinity (a skill which quite frankly should not exist), which most of the colorless units Robin is designed to counter now take as part of their recommended build. When coupled with the new existence of colored bows, Raven tomes are simply not what they used to be anymore.

It seems to me that for a Raven Tome to be useful as the primary effect of his prf weapon, it either has to come with an upgrade that gives him a strong enough enemy phase alternative to TA (like Owl tome effect), effective damage against Bows, Dull Ranged, or a similar skill that allows him to reliably tank enemy phase.

I don't know about that, in arena you meet either Brave Lyn or Halloween Jakob neither of them is likely run CA. Skill that practically doesn't exist. Colorful bows just means they can be deals by conventional means instead. And if you don't want run TA3 that much there is plenty of other options, though one of them give such nice bonus to not Atk and Def regardless of phase.

@Ice Dragon Fair enough.

Edited May 15, 2018 by Tenzen12

[redlight]

3 hours ago, Etheus said:

TA is in itself a bit of a questionable skill. They basically destroyed his main build by introducing Cancel Affinity (a skill which quite frankly should not exist), which most of the colorless units Robin is designed to counter now take as part of their recommended build. When coupled with the new existence of colored bows, Raven tomes are simply not what they used to be anymore.

It seems to me that for a Raven Tome to be useful as the primary effect of his prf weapon, it either has to come with an upgrade that gives him a strong enough enemy phase alternative to TA (like Owl tome effect), effective damage against Bows, Dull Ranged, or a similar skill that allows him to reliably tank enemy phase.

In the upper tiers of arena, CA isn't that reliable as there are more expensive skills to use as well as better ones. You're more likely going to run into a CC bow user, who prioritizes higher SP cost skills, rather than cheaper SP brave bow users (Jakob is the only one who I think could safely run brave bow without any fear of scoring lower points). Also, raventomes are questionable in the upper tiers as you can't refine it resulting in a bit poorer point total for your unit. You're not going to be seeing a lot of colorless units in tier 20 anyways. You might encounter Jakob, but there are other and more efficient ways of countering him.

Edited May 15, 2018 by silveraura25

[Fabulously Olivier]

36 minutes ago, silveraura25 said:

In the upper tiers of arena, CA isn't that reliable as there are more expensive skills to use as well as better ones. You're more likely going to run into a CC bow user, who prioritizes higher SP cost skills, rather than cheaper SP brave bow users (Jakob is the only one who I think could safely run brave bow without any fear of scoring lower points). Also, raventomes are questionable in the upper tiers as you can't refine it resulting in a bit poorer point total for your unit. You're not going to be seeing a lot of colorless units in tier 20 anyways. You might encounter Jakob, but there are other and more efficient ways of countering him.

I see. In that case, perhaps the best approach to Robin is to equip him against the common threats at high tier in a similar way to Micaiah.

 

Robin - High Deliverer

Grima's Bane

Mt. 14

Effective against armored foes and dragons.

Refine - HP +3. Against armored or dragon foes negates foe's bonuses (from Fortify/Rally) during combat.

 

Edited May 15, 2018 by Etheus

[redlight]

9 minutes ago, Etheus said:

I see. In that case, perhaps the best approach to Robin is to equip him against the common threats at high tier in a similar way to Micaiah.

 

Robin - High Deliverer

Grima's Bane

Mt. 14

Effective against armored foes and dragons.

Refine - HP +3. Against armored or dragon foes negates foe's bonuses (from Fortify/Rally) during combat.

 

Hmmm. I dunno. It could be balanced. Maybe. I don't think I see anything necessarily wrong with this weapon so I'll give it a pass

Edited May 15, 2018 by silveraura25

[Hilda]

5 hours ago, Tenzen12 said:

I don't know about that, in arena you meet either Brave Lyn or Halloween Jakob neither of them is likely run CA. Skill that practically doesn't exist. Colorful bows just means they can be deals by conventional means instead. And if you don't want run TA3 that much there is plenty of other options, though one of them give such nice bonus to not Atk and Def regardless of phase.

@Ice Dragon Fair enough.

uh wut... half the Brave Lyns i meet run Firesweep and Cancel affinity...

I agree on Halloween Jakob, Halloween Jakob is broken with Brave Bow and Bold Fighter... Thank god for Urvans effect...

[JSND Alter Dragon Boner]

7 hours ago, Hilda said:

uh wut... half the Brave Lyns i meet run Firesweep and Cancel affinity...

I agree on Halloween Jakob, Halloween Jakob is broken with Brave Bow and Bold Fighter... Thank god for Urvans effect...

Huh did Urvan made BF Jakob go 10 ->00000?

[TheWill]

I seriously hope some of the dud 5★ are next, especially if they're not going to demote them.

• Gray and Saber can get some of Echoes many unused weapons (Shadow Sword, Zweihander, Astra, Ilwoon). 
• Ninian isn't a dud 5★, but could use a utility-based stone akin to Urõr.
• Young Tiki. Adult Tiki will probably get the same stone, but it should be preferred by Young Tiki (maybe res-based version of Myrrh). 
• Mist, make her test the waters with legendary staffs. 
• Katarina, maybe another 'Chill' like Soren/Lilina. 

[Corrobin]

Adult and Young Tiki are getting a new weapon called Breath of Fog!

Linde will get a refinement option for her Aura!

Merric will get an refinement option for his Excalibur!

[NSSKG151]

I know it won't happen any time soon but now that refines for Aura/Excalibur exist I'm starting to wonder when/if refines for Dark Aura/Dark Excalibur will happen only to see small buffs for the Valentian Mages. Delthea is still pretty good with just regular Dark Aura but Sonya could use a boost to her tome.

Celica's Ragnarok could also use a boost since she's kind of outclassed by Winter Tharja, Mage Eirika and Forblaze Lilina at this point. IDK, maybe add Renewal 2/3 or Sol as Ragnarok's refine effect.

[Corrobin]

Breath of Fog: Renewal 3 built into it, refined, gains "If unit is within 2 spaces of a sword or dragon ally, grants Atk/Def+5 during combat".

Excalibur: Still flier effective, gains Killer/Slaying effect. Refined, gains "If unit is within 2 spaces of a magic or staff ally, grants Atk/Spd+5 during combat".

Aura: Breath of Life is ditched, in exchange for a +6 Attack buff to all adjacent magic and staff allies at the start of turn. Refined, gains "If unit is within 2 spaces of a magic or staff ally, grants Atk/Spd+5 during combat".

[Troykv]

How many base game personal weapon left to change? (Because I only remember Hector, but isn't like he needs it, at least for now).

[Corrobin]

I think it's just DC weapons.

[Vince777]

Well there's the Askr trio and their weapons. 

Perhaps they could actually give weapons like Durandal and Tyrfing real upgrades rather than a new weapon. 

[Ice Dragon]

1 hour ago, Troykv said:

How many base game personal weapon left to change? (Because I only remember Hector, but isn't like he needs it, at least for now).

Gen 1 Launch

• Durandal (can evolve)
• Folkvangr
• Raijinto
• Siegfried
• Fensalir
• Gradivus
• Armads (can evolve)
• Noatun

Gen 1

• Alondite
• Ragnell
• Tyrfing (can evolve)
• Ragnarok
• Dark Aura
• Dire Thunder
• Dark Excalibur
• Naga (can evolve)

Gen 1.5

• Audhulma
• Cursed Lance
• Vidofnir
• Urdhr
• Nidhogg
• Grimoire

[Troykv]

12 minutes ago, Ice Dragon said:

Gen 1 Launch

• Durandal (can evolve)
• Folkvangr
• Raijinto
• Siegfried
• Fensalir
• Gradivus
• Armads (can evolve)
• Noatun

Gen 1

• Alondite
• Ragnell
• Tyrfing (can evolve)
• Ragnarok
• Dark Aura
• Dire Thunder
• Dark Excalibur
• Naga (can evolve)

Gen 1.5

• Audhulma
• Cursed Lance
• Vidofnir
• Urdhr
• Nidhogg
• Grimoire

Oh!... From the base I think the only things we lack are alternative refinements for Durandal and Armads (but the latter will take many mad units before it appears).

In post release... I'm now expecting Dark Excalibur's and Dark Aura's refinements after the other Excalibur/Aura  now have the upgrape...

Also, it's possible that Tyrfing get an alternative refinement just because of how different both Tyrfings work.... Maybe Naga gets an upgrape based in the fact Roy's Binding Blade is a similar weapon.

I'm not sure how IS will deal with Ragnarok's, Vidofnir's, Cursed Lance's (special this one, it's effect look like a 75% of a Secong Gen Weapon), Urdhr's and Audhulma's (this one too) potential refinements

I'm expecting Nidhogg to change after Soren's refinenemtn.

It's possible for Urdhr and Grimoire to get refinements? After all, this are seasonal units.... I guess this must be a way like how we get access to Candlelight+.

Edited June 8, 2018 by Troykv

[Hilda]

1 hour ago, Ice Dragon said:

Gen 1 Launch

• Durandal (can evolve)
• Folkvangr
• Raijinto
• Siegfried
• Fensalir
• Gradivus
• Armads (can evolve)
• Noatun

Gen 1

• Alondite
• Ragnell
• Tyrfing (can evolve)
• Ragnarok
• Dark Aura
• Dire Thunder
• Dark Excalibur
• Naga (can evolve)

Gen 1.5

• Audhulma
• Cursed Lance
• Vidofnir
• Urdhr
• Nidhogg
• Grimoire

Vidofnir is a joke after the latest new Sword that got released... like seriously lol

[Ice Dragon]

14 minutes ago, Hilda said:

Vidofnir is a joke after the latest new Sword that got released... like seriously lol

Which is irrelevant because Tana can't use Safeguard, and no one with access to Safeguard can use Vidofnir.

It's like saying Quick Riposte is a joke on non-armors because Vengeful Fighter exists. Vengeful Fighter is a great skill, but very few units actually have access to it.

Edited June 8, 2018 by Ice Dragon

[Fabulously Olivier]

16 minutes ago, Ice Dragon said:

Which is irrelevant because Tana can't use Safeguard, and no one with access to Safeguard can use Vidofnir.

It's like saying Quick Riposte is a joke on non-armors because Vengeful Fighter exists. Vengeful Fighter is a great skill, but very few units actually have access to it.

Is that really a justification for gross powercreep though. It's a fact that armored units have been getting a lot of favoritism which has pushed them far above the power curve.

Conversely, infantry units have consistently gotten the shaft to the point that only the very strongest of them are relevant. They don't even have unique team buffs yet outside of Infantry Pulse.

[Ice Dragon]

1 minute ago, Etheus said:

Is that really a justification for gross powercreep though. It's a fact that armored units have been getting a lot of favoritism which has pushed them far above the power curve.

I don't see how Safeguard favors armors at all. In fact, due to the existence of Bold Fighter and Vengeful Fighter, it's a better option to run Wo Dao (makes Specials stronger), Slaying Edge (allows the use of stronger Specials), Brave Sword (makes Specials activate faster and more often), or an uninheritable weapon instead.

I only see three uses for Safeguard:

1. Keeping non-combatants, namely dancers, from dying. Safeguard is strictly a side-grade of Ruby Sword for this purpose because it has better defensive capabilities, but does significantly less damage.
2. Making an annoying Arena defense team (like solo Arden) that screws over very specific team compositions.
3. PvE challenge content where you can spec your units to deal with very specific opponents.

[Troykv]

11 minutes ago, Ice Dragon said:

I don't see how Safeguard favors armors at all. In fact, due to the existence of Bold Fighter and Vengeful Fighter, it's a better option to run Wo Dao (makes Specials stronger), Slaying Edge (allows the use of stronger Specials), Brave Sword (makes Specials activate faster and more often), or an uninheritable weapon instead.

I only see three uses for Safeguard:

1. Keeping non-combatants, namely dancers, from dying. Safeguard is strictly a side-grade of Ruby Sword for this purpose because it has better defensive capabilities, but does significantly less damage.
2. Making an annoying Arena defense team (like solo Arden) that screws over very specific team compositions.
3. PvE challenge content where you can spec your units to deal with very specific opponents.

I think he should have divided his first sentence, it combines two arguments that don't should go together.

[Fabulously Olivier]

22 minutes ago, Ice Dragon said:

I don't see how Safeguard favors armors at all. In fact, due to the existence of Bold Fighter and Vengeful Fighter, it's a better option to run Wo Dao (makes Specials stronger), Slaying Edge (allows the use of stronger Specials), Brave Sword (makes Specials activate faster and more often), or an uninheritable weapon instead.

I only see three uses for Safeguard:

1. Keeping non-combatants, namely dancers, from dying. Safeguard is strictly a side-grade of Ruby Sword for this purpose because it has better defensive capabilities, but does significantly less damage.
2. Making an annoying Arena defense team (like solo Arden) that screws over very specific team compositions.
3. PvE challenge content where you can spec your units to deal with very specific opponents.

My mistake. I'm not actually talking about Safeguard in this case. Though Safeguard is a very small example of something that objectively should not be happening - new skills which are identical to and objectively better than existing ones without buffing the existing skills to match. It doesn't actually matter that the color of Vidofnir and Safeguard are different. Weapon stats are meant to be identical to their equivalents on other weapon types: we don't see different stats for Wo Dao and Harmonic Lance, for example, because that would be bad game design. The only acceptable exception to this is if we are talking about entirely different classes of characters: such as ranged weapons having lower stats than their melee equivalents.

 

Vengeful Fighter was the one I was really addressing here. It's one of the worst possible examples of power creep. It is an incredibly overpowered, enhanced version of an already strong skill (Quick Riposte), and it is exclusive to armor teams, which are already significantly stronger than they should be because of repeated power creep. Using it as a justification for power creep in another area of the game is not really a good argument.

Edited June 8, 2018 by Etheus

[Ice Dragon]

1 minute ago, Etheus said:

Using it as a justification for power creep in another area of the game is not really a good argument.

If you can point out where I used Vengeful Fighter as justification of power creep, I'd like to see it. Go read my post and the post I was responding to again.

The fact of the matter is that Vidofnir has not been encroached upon by Safeguard's existence. No user of Safeguard has access to Vidofnir, and no user of Vidofnir has access to Safeguard. You cannot say that "Safeguard makes Vidofnir into a joke" when no one has both as options.

Furthermore, even if Tana did have access to Safeguard, the only advantage Safeguard has over Vidofnir is that it has access to refinements. The weapon type restriction for Vidofnir's effectis irrelevant because of the low frequency of dagger opponents, the fact that Tana shouldn't be taking a hit from an enemy she cannot counterattack to begin with (especially considering daggers inflict an area-of-effect debuff on your team), and the fact that under no circumstance does Tana want to be taking a hit from a bow without Iote's Shield eating up her Sacred Seal slot.

The comment about Vengeful Fighter is intended to be an analogue to this case. In the same way that Tana has no business caring about how Safeguard could be a better weapon for her than Vidofnir, infantry units have no business caring about how Vengeful Fighter could be a better skill for them than Quick Riposte because Tana doesn't have access to Safeguard and infantry units don't have access to Vengeful Fighter.

You can create an uninheritable lance with the stats 40 Mt, +30 Spd, +20 Def, +20 Res, and innate Firesweep and give it to a unit with 1/1/1/1/1 stats, and it would be trash. Sure, Cordelia would be broken with it, but Cordelia can't use it in the first place, so how amazing it would be on Cordelia is irrelevant.

[Troykv]

13 minutes ago, Ice Dragon said:

If you can point out where I used Vengeful Fighter as justification of power creep, I'd like to see it. Go read my post and the post I was responding to again.

The fact of the matter is that Vidofnir has not been encroached upon by Safeguard's existence. No user of Safeguard has access to Vidofnir, and no user of Vidofnir has access to Safeguard. You cannot say that "Safeguard makes Vidofnir into a joke" when no one has both as options.

Furthermore, even if Tana did have access to Safeguard, the only advantage Safeguard has over Vidofnir is that it has access to refinements. The weapon type restriction for Vidofnir's effectis irrelevant because of the low frequency of dagger opponents, the fact that Tana shouldn't be taking a hit from an enemy she cannot counterattack to begin with (especially considering daggers inflict an area-of-effect debuff on your team), and the fact that under no circumstance does Tana want to be taking a hit from a bow without Iote's Shield eating up her Sacred Seal slot.

The comment about Vengeful Fighter is intended to be an analogue to this case. In the same way that Tana has no business caring about how Safeguard could be a better weapon for her than Vidofnir, infantry units have no business caring about how Vengeful Fighter could be a better skill for them than Quick Riposte because Tana doesn't have access to Safeguard and infantry units don't have access to Vengeful Fighter.

You can create an uninheritable lance with the stats 40 Mt, +30 Spd, +20 Def, +20 Res, and innate Firesweep and give it to a unit with 1/1/1/1/1 stats, and it would be trash. Sure, Cordelia would be broken with it, but Cordelia can't use it in the first place, so how amazing it would be on Cordelia is irrelevant.

I don't find it exactly unfair because Tana can't use Safeguard anyway...

But it feels... weird to me that an inheritable weapon has a similar effect (but better) to a personal weapon.

I guess it's just my obssesive mind wanting everything to be "proportionally perfect"....  But anyway... All this talk started because of Vidofnir.

Regardless of if Safeguard actually makes Vidofnir look bad or not; I think Vidofnir deserves a refinement.