General Weapon Refinery discussion/speculation/creation thread

[Corrobin]

ASKR TRIO GET REFINES!

Alfonse: Brazen Attack/Defense as new base effect, Triangle Adept 3 as unique refine effect

Sharena: Dull Close/Ranged combo as new base effect, Speed/Defense Bond as unique refine effect

Anna: It's a little hard to explain, but, refined with her unique effect, it works like this:

If Anna is above 50% HP, she can warp to a space adjacent to any ally within 2 spaces. If she drops to below 50%, the "within two spaces" restriction is lifted and she can warp to ANY space adjacent to any ally.

[ILikeKirbys]

So, on the new refines that I'm sure many of us have been askring for for a while. I have opinions:

Alfonse: Brazen ATK/DEF 3 is a big yes, great upgrade over just Defiant ATK 2, Triangle Adept 3... I don't like so much, but fortunately it's optional for him. If I give him this (which I most likely will), he's getting the DEF refinement and Brazen ATK/DEF off my spAres for maximum ATK/DEF.

Sharena: My next 20k feathers are going to you. And my next 200 Divine Dew. Because I like Dull Everything & SPD/DEF Bond here, beats Threaten ATK 2 handily. Not sure how I should build her, but I want to now.

Anna: Welp, she's getting a generic weapon. Sorry, but Newatun's effects don't do it for me like Folkvangr's (Brazen ATK/DEF only) and Fensalir's (both) do. I can appreciate Escape Route and Warp Powder are useful, but I don't feel like Anna improves especially much from them.

So the Askrsiblings are getting their refinements with my next 400 Divine Dew (just gotta decide which one to do first... probably Alfonse, since I can more easily build him), and Anna... I'll let her keep Noatun until we get some new generic axes, then she's getting a replacement.

[Hilda]

1 hour ago, ILikeKirbys said:

So, on the new refines that I'm sure many of us have been askring for for a while. I have opinions:

Alfonse: Brazen ATK/DEF 3 is a big yes, great upgrade over just Defiant ATK 2, Triangle Adept 3... I don't like so much, but fortunately it's optional for him. If I give him this (which I most likely will), he's getting the DEF refinement and Brazen ATK/DEF off my spAres for maximum ATK/DEF.

Sharena: My next 20k feathers are going to you. And my next 200 Divine Dew. Because I like Dull Everything & SPD/DEF Bond here, beats Threaten ATK 2 handily. Not sure how I should build her, but I want to now.

Anna: Welp, she's getting a generic weapon. Sorry, but Newatun's effects don't do it for me like Folkvangr's (Brazen ATK/DEF only) and Fensalir's (both) do. I can appreciate Escape Route and Warp Powder are useful, but I don't feel like Anna improves especially much from them.

So the Askrsiblings are getting their refinements with my next 400 Divine Dew (just gotta decide which one to do first... probably Alfonse, since I can more easily build him), and Anna... I'll let her keep Noatun until we get some new generic axes, then she's getting a replacement.

For someone like myself that has done all the Infernal GHB and BHB maps with the askr trio those special refines make very much sense imho and are perfect for those maps if you run all 3 askr units to clear them.

Alfonse: Triangle adept, there were some GHB and BHB maps where i had to run Triangle adept because he failed to kill Green Axe Armored units or had to inherit an Armorsmasher sword on him. Brazen Atk/def has become a staple on the A slot for him. This frees the slot up

Anna: Her Refine is perfect because it makes the starting of the map much more flexible especially when she has a bond with Sharena. Sometimes you just couldnt meat the threshold fo blow 40% on her first encounter to force the escape route out of her. This makes it much more easier and gives her a way better starting point!

Sharena: With her refine finally a Askr unit not affraid of buffed up enemys and Litrblade mages on GHB maps

[Corrobin]

I find it kind of funny how the original versions of Alfonse and Seliph's weapons were considered inferior versions of the Defiant skills, but once Brazens were introduced now they're slightly worse versions of those, and yet Brazens are really good.

[Ice Dragon]

2 hours ago, Corrobin said:

I find it kind of funny how the original versions of Alfonse and Seliph's weapons were considered inferior versions of the Defiant skills, but once Brazens were introduced now they're slightly worse versions of those, and yet Brazens are really good.

Folkvangr's effect isn't an inferior version of a Defiant skill. It literally is Defiant Atk 2.

Tyrfing was a weaker version of a single-stat Brazen with a worse HP threshold and a smaller stat boost. Tyrfing has 50% HP threshold and boosts one stat by 4 points. Brazen skills have an 80% HP threshold and boost two stats by 7 points each.

[Corrobin]

36 minutes ago, Ice Dragon said:

Folkvangr's effect isn't an inferior version of a Defiant skill. It literally is Defiant Atk 2.

Tyrfing was a weaker version of a single-stat Brazen with a worse HP threshold and a smaller stat boost. Tyrfing has 50% HP threshold and boosts one stat by 4 points. Brazen skills have an 80% HP threshold and boost two stats by 7 points each.

You have a point, I guess I just worded it wrong.

Also, good on you for guessing the correct name of the Wo Dao axe!

Care to share your thoughts on the new refines?

[Usana]

I might actually finally 5* one of them. Kinda tough to say who got the best deal out of this between Alfonse and Sharena if you ask me. That's not to say that Anna's wouldn't be useful, just that it would be really low on my priority lists.

[Ice Dragon]

59 minutes ago, Corrobin said:

Also, good on you for guessing the correct name of the Wo Dao axe!

That was actually a miss. They went with "Wo Gun", where "gun" is a staff or club (a stick-shaped one like the ones police have, not the chicken-leg-shaped ones), which is kind of an odd choice.

 

42 minutes ago, Corrobin said:

Care to share your thoughts on the new refines?

Folkvangr

Brazen was exactly what I was expecting for a base effect. While I'm not too much of a fan of Brazen skills due to the fact that they don't mesh well with things like Quick Riposte and aren't active on the first round of combat, but with Triangle Adept as the unique refine, Alfonse can run something like Brazen Atk/Def (that's a second stack) + Axebreaker + Brash Assault for a mean anti-axe build with serious bulk after taking damage (46 Def) even at neutral weapon triangle.

Fensalir

Dull All is an interesting, but situational skill. Spd/Def Bond is the more interesting one because that can be stacked with a second copy of Spd/Def Bond or with another bond skill for additional stats. I can see Atk/Def Bond or Atk/Res Bond working pretty well for her on an enemy-phase build. Player-phase builds are a bit more difficult to pull off with Bond skills, but they're still possible, and Atk/Spd Bond gives her a total of +5/10/5/0, which helps with her borderline Spd and Def stats.

Noatun

She teleports. It's a bit lackluster for combat, but it's still a ton of free mobility.

[Corrobin]

IceDragon, what would the name for a Wo Dao bow or dagger be?

[redlight]

1 hour ago, Corrobin said:

IceDragon, what would the name for a Wo Dao bow or dagger be?

Google translate says Wo Gong is the bow and Wo Bi the dagger

[Zapp Branniglenn]

I'm happy they showed us what the refines actually are besides leaving us in suspense like they usually do. Also I'm happy with all of them and will gladly dump my saved 600 Dew.

[Snahp]

Athena seems like the character most in need of a refine considering she was straight up powercrept in every stat by Mia, very surprised she hasn't got one yet.

[bottlegnomes]

41 minutes ago, Leifthrasir said:

Athena seems like the character most in need of a refine considering she was straight up powercrept in every stat by Mia, very surprised she hasn't got one yet.

Athena is 3-4* exclusive though, and still makes a decent discount PP swordie. With +atk, a speed refine, and L&D, she can hit 53/46, which means she could feasibly run the flashing blade seal to net her every-turn Wo Dao-Desperation Moonbows. I'm not saying she couldn't use one, but saying she got powercrept by basically Ayra-lite, who was also intended as whale-bait, doesn't really mean she's scraping the bottom of the barrel. She could definitely use some help, but there are other infantry swordies that seem like they could use more help.

Anyway, was looking through some characters, and I know I'm a little biased because Palla is my waifu for laifu, but Palla has basically nothing to make her stand out against the other sword fliers. Yeah, there's only one other non-5*-exclusive, but Caeda has a pretty sweet prf weapon.

Also, looking through the cavs, all of the non-exclusive weapon ones are pretty pathetic at this point. Lance cavalry as a whole is a pretty lacking lot as well. A lot of solid units, but virtually no standouts.

Lastly, I think what bugs me about Titania's prf is that it does basically nothing to really change her role. I haven't looked into it, but I don't know how much it'd really improve her matchups against blues over an Emerald Axe, and res tactic seems like a pretty undesired skill from everything I've seen. Against other greens, it seems like she'd still probably prefer a slaying axe. Forgeable Emerald Axe is nice, but it doesn't seem like it really changes things for her. Then again, like I said, I haven't tried it, and I haven't really looked into it so maybe I'm missing something.

Edited July 22, 2018 by bottlegnomes

[Ice Dragon]

7 hours ago, Corrobin said:

IceDragon, what would the name for a Wo Dao bow or dagger be?

"Gong" is the most standard word for a bow in Chinese.

Chinese doesn't have a differentiation between swords and daggers (besides using the modifiers "long" and "short"), only a differentiation between single-bladed (dao) and double-bladed (jian). "Feidao" is a possibility meaning "throwing knife" (literally "flying knife"). "Duandao" or "duanjian" are possibilities meaning "short sword". "Shoulijian" would be an interesting, but very unlikely, choice as it's a loan word from Japanese itself, meaning "shuriken" (literally "dagger [hidden] within the hand"), and "wo shoulijian" would literally just mean "Japanese shuriken", which is grossly redundant.

 

2 hours ago, bottlegnomes said:

Also, looking through the cavs, all of the non-exclusive weapon ones are pretty pathetic at this point. Lance cavalry as a whole is a pretty lacking lot as well. A lot of solid units, but virtually no standouts.

It's hard to stand out when all of them are pretty good and virtually identical. Peri, Oscar, Abel, and Finn are pretty much on as even terms with each other as Cordelia, Tana, and Shigure are in the flying division (ignoring the fact that Tana has a unique weapon) with the one exception that Peri can actually land Ploys with some amount of reliability.

 

2 hours ago, bottlegnomes said:

Lastly, I think what bugs me about Titania's prf is that it does basically nothing to really change her role. I haven't looked into it, but I don't know how much it'd really improve her matchups against blues over an Emerald Axe, and res tactic seems like a pretty undesired skill from everything I've seen. Against other greens, it seems like she'd still probably prefer a slaying axe. Forgeable Emerald Axe is nice, but it doesn't seem like it really changes things for her. Then again, like I said, I haven't tried it, and I haven't really looked into it so maybe I'm missing something.

There's no need for a new weapon to change a unit's role. If a unit's role isn't irrelevant and hasn't been seriously infringed upon by other newer characters, I don't see a need to change it.

A refinable Emerald Axe with +4 Atk at base is already nothing to sneeze at.

[bottlegnomes]

9 minutes ago, Ice Dragon said:

It's hard to stand out when all of them are pretty good and virtually identical. Peri, Oscar, Abel, and Finn are pretty much on as even terms with each other as Cordelia, Tana, and Shigure are in the flying division (ignoring the fact that Tana has a unique weapon) with the one exception that Peri can actually land Ploys with some amount of reliability.

Fair point.

 

9 minutes ago, Ice Dragon said:

There's no need for a new weapon to change a unit's role. If a unit's role isn't irrelevant and hasn't been seriously infringed upon by other newer characters, I don't see a need to change it.

A refinable Emerald Axe with +4 Atk at base is already nothing to sneeze at.

It's not that it has to change her niche. It's more that, as I said, I'm not sure how much it would really improve her compared to a normal EA or her niche of DC res tank which I think often uses a Slaying Axe as well. Although, I was thinking EA was 14 mt, not 12, which is a bit bigger of a jump. Though, I mean, I guess my point is more why not just make gem weapons refinable instead of introducing a prf weapon that's basically all that would be? I doubt anyone's itching for res tactic, and refinable gem weapons don't seem like the end of the world. It'd make the units somewhat more competent at fighting their own color while maintaining their domination of their WTA color.

[Ice Dragon]

6 minutes ago, bottlegnomes said:

Though, I mean, I guess my point is more why not just make gem weapons refinable instead of introducing a prf weapon that's basically all that would be? I doubt anyone's itching for res tactic, and refinable gem weapons don't seem like the end of the world.

Triangle Adept is good enough to make literally any non-colorless unit competent at a relevant role, so I think they're being cautious with handing out unique weapons with the skill. They've so far given it only to Titania, who has low Atk and Def, and soon Alfonse, who is deathly slow and has no access to merges or non-neutral natures.

Res Tactic as the unique refine really shouldn't be treated any differently than Yato's Supportive skill. It's not universally useful, but it gives you unique options for certain team compositions.

 

17 minutes ago, bottlegnomes said:

It'd make the units somewhat more competent at fighting their own color while maintaining their domination of their WTA color.

Their domination of one color is precisely why they shouldn't be given too many tools that make them more competent in general.

Triangle Adept is currently the single most powerful offensive and defensive skill in the game simultaneously, at the small cost of only being active against the one color that the unit seriously needs to actually be able to beat to be considered viable. Against that one color, the unit has the rough equivalent of Death Blow 4, Armored Blow 4, Warding Blow 4, Fierce Stance 4, Steady Stance 4, and Warding Stance 4 all at the same time.

[bottlegnomes]

46 minutes ago, Ice Dragon said:

Triangle Adept is good enough to make literally any non-colorless unit competent at a relevant role, so I think they're being cautious with handing out unique weapons with the skill. They've so far given it only to Titania, who has low Atk and Def, and soon Alfonse, who is deathly slow and has no access to merges or non-neutral natures.

Res Tactic as the unique refine really shouldn't be treated any differently than Yato's Supportive skill. It's not universally useful, but it gives you unique options for certain team compositions.

 

Their domination of one color is precisely why they shouldn't be given too many tools that make them more competent in general.

Triangle Adept is currently the single most powerful offensive and defensive skill in the game simultaneously, at the small cost of only being active against the one color that the unit seriously needs to actually be able to beat to be considered viable. Against that one color, the unit has the rough equivalent of Death Blow 4, Armored Blow 4, Warding Blow 4, Fierce Stance 4, Steady Stance 4, and Warding Stance 4 all at the same time.

I'm not arguing that it's great; there's a reason the gem/TA/breaker build has become an AA meme. It's more that it doesn't strike me as meta-shifting to make them refinable. Generally, from my experience, the units who tend to want to run gem weapons/TA are units who are meant to dominate a specific color largely because they're okay, but can't really find any other niche. I can't possibly fathom someone seriously putting a Ruby Sword or TA on Ayra for example, and it seems like most top tier units would still prefer to run other weapons for the additional effects rather than dominate a color they already dominate even harder. So the units who'd most likely be seeing the most benefit are the characters who struggle to do much than be specialists against their WTA color, i.e. the ones that perform terribly against their WTD color anyway and mediocrely at best against their same color from my experience.

I suppose there is the argument that it makes TA a bit pointless for melee because it doesn't seem like there'd be much advantage to running, say, a refined Slaying Edge+ and TA over a refined Ruby Sword+ and say Fury. Maybe Wo weapons, but if you're already doubling with +40% attack, you're probably killing the enemy anyway, regardless of the +10 damage. Actually, effective weapons...

To be fair, re Corrin's refine, it's quite easy to swap supports around pretty quickly and give a sweeper massive buffs, but true. Both aren't necessarily generally applicable, but can be useful in certain support situations. It lets you give an infantry blade tome mage full buffs if nothing else. *shrug*

I was going to say something about Titania getting the worst refine of her group despite also being the worst unit, but then I remembered she's also the only one not a 5*-exclusive, which kinda moots that point. Of course she's going to get something less fancy. They need to justify the other unit's rarity to get people pulling for them.

Edited July 22, 2018 by bottlegnomes

[Ice Dragon]

23 minutes ago, bottlegnomes said:

I can't possibly fathom someone seriously putting a Ruby Sword or TA on Ayra for example, and it seems like most top tier units would still prefer to run other weapons for the additional effects rather than dominate a color they already dominate even harder. So the units who'd most likely be seeing the most benefit are the characters who struggle to do much than be specialists against their WTA color, i.e. the ones that perform terribly against their WTD color anyway and mediocrely at best against their same color from my experience.

And you know what? Titania happens to be one of those units that struggles against the color she has weapon triangle advantage against. As I already mentioned, Titania has low Atk and low Def, which is not a good combination of stats in the increasingly bulky state of the meta. Even with her Slaying Axe + Iceberg build, she doesn't have the power to muscle past bulkier blue units, especially considering the number of lance armors and bulky lance infantry there currently are. Despite getting more favorable match-ups in general with a Slaying Axe build, she's doing so by sacrificing match-ups against blue opponents.

It doesn't make sense for Ayra to give up Ayra's Blade or Slaying Edge for Ruby Sword or Distant Counter or Swift Sparrow for Triangle Adept because she already has superlative performance against green units. Unlike Titania, Ayra can afford to branch out and improve her match-ups against red and colorless because she doesn't need to sacrifice her performance against green to do so.

[bottlegnomes]

49 minutes ago, Ice Dragon said:

It doesn't make sense for Ayra to give up Ayra's Blade or Slaying Edge for Ruby Sword or Distant Counter or Swift Sparrow for Triangle Adept because she already has superlative performance against green units. Unlike Titania, Ayra can afford to branch out and improve her match-ups against red and colorless because she doesn't need to sacrifice her performance against green to do so.

This is exactly what I said.

1 hour ago, bottlegnomes said:

and it seems like most top tier units would still prefer to run other weapons for the additional effects rather than dominate a color they already dominate even harder.

 

49 minutes ago, Ice Dragon said:

And you know what? Titania happens to be one of those units that struggles against the color she has weapon triangle advantage against. As I already mentioned, Titania has low Atk and low Def, which is not a good combination of stats in the increasingly bulky state of the meta. Even with her Slaying Axe + Iceberg build, she doesn't have the power to muscle past bulkier blue units, especially considering the number of lance armors and bulky lance infantry there currently are. Despite getting more favorable match-ups in general with a Slaying Axe build, she's doing so by sacrificing match-ups against blue opponents.

My points were:

A) Does it really improve her performance that much? A legitimate question, and from doing a bit of crunching, it does a decent bit.
B) If so, why not just make gem weapons refinable? The good units don't particularly want them since they already have no issue with their WTA color, and the units who want them aren't exactly going to snap meta by being mildly better against their same color. +2 mt and refinement makes virtually no difference against their WTA color far as I can tell. But like you said, they're probably just being cautious. Maybe even testing the waters. If Titania skyrockets in power, then maybe don't make gem weapons refinable. If she stays largely the same, they hey, maybe worth testing it on a better unit to see if it makes them really snap things. If people still prefer more generally applicable weapons, then probably safe to let them be refinable.

Edited July 22, 2018 by bottlegnomes

[Ice Dragon]

8 minutes ago, bottlegnomes said:

B) If so, why not just make gem weapons refinable? The good units don't particularly want them since they already have no issue their WTA color, and the units who want them aren't exactly going to snap meta by being mildly better against their same color. +2 mt and refinement makes virtually no difference against their WTA color far as I can tell.

Do you know what +5 HP, +2 Atk, and +3 Spd does do, though? It makes a unit significantly better against their own color, especially with the Weaponbreaker for the melee weapon of their color.

Assuming Sapphire Lance+ [Spd] gives 5 HP, 14 Atk, and 3 Spd, Sully outperforms Peri's Firesweep Lance build and is only slightly worse than Peri's Brave Lance build against red and blue. That shouldn't happen with a skill designed to specialize against one color and only one color. Even with only 12 Atk, these comparisons hold up (though Sully is now squarely halfway between the two Peri builds now).

Removing the 3 Spd (which was the most important part) substantially weakens Sully's position relative to Peri, dropping the build down below Peri's Firesweep Lance build, and removing the 5 HP widens the gap just a bit more.

There is a very good reason Triangle Adept forces a unit to give up their refine slot or their passive A slot. It's a damned powerful skill.

 

Builds used:

Spoiler

Enemies are Arcticsilverfox's Hard List with +10 merge and +3/3/3/3 buffs. Challenger attacks once only.

+10 Sully [+Spd, -Def] (Sapphire Lance+ [Spd], Moonbow, Swift Sparrow 2, Lancebreaker 3, Def Ploy 3) +6/6

+10 Peri [+Spd, -Def] (Firesweep Lance+, Life and Death 3, Lancebreaker 3, Def Ploy 3) +6/6

+10 Peri [+Atk, -Def] (Brave Lance+, Luna, Swift Sparrow 2, Lancebreaker 3, Def Ploy 3) +6/6

 

[bottlegnomes]

@Ice Dragon Sully is the exact kind of unit who could use a significant boost, and FS Peri while solid, isn't exactly the gold standard for a PP unit. For comparison, using the same enemy setup you have, Elincia gets:
+atk/-res Amiti, DB, CA, attack +3:                   174, 22,   1
+atk/-res FS+, L&D, SB, attack +3:                    166,   0, 31
+atk/-res RS+ spd refine, Fury, SB, attack +3: 145, 40, 12

Went with the ones that got the highest counts for each weapon. Elinicia, a high tier unit, would still rather run FS or Amiti, which was basically my point.

Re your Peri:
+atk/-res SL+ spd refine, moonbow, Fury, LB, Def Ploy, attack +3:                                                  142, 43, 12
+10 Peri [+Spd, -Def] (Firesweep Lance+, Life and Death 3, Lancebreaker 3, Def Ploy 3) +6/6: 159,   0, 38
+10 Peri [+Atk, -Def] (Brave Lance+, Luna, Swift Sparrow 2, Lancebreaker 3, Def Ploy 3) +6/6: 165, 32,  0

Same on the kit I added. So there too, Peri would still probably run Firesweep to ensure her survival on initiation or Brave Lance to optimize her offense. Saphire Lance does give her the potential for EP, but still not very strong EP.

So like I said, it doesn't seem like it'd be all that much of a shakeup. It'd make terrible units perform on-par with good units, and great units would still rather run other options. I do get why they might be hesitant though, since as you said it is a very good skill. And again, maybe they're testing the waters with some bad units, and then maybe even will with some better units to see if people would still rather run other weapons. If they start only picking the gem variants, then yeah, maybe don't make them refinable on the whole. If they still prefer other weapons on better units, maybe safe to make them refinable.

EDIT: Ah damn, I forgot the +5 HP. That's what I get for doing this right after waking up. I'll recalc things when  back at home.

EDIT 2: Think I got that factored in right. Still seems like both would prefer to go full offense with Braves or rely on the guaranteed safety of firesweep.

Edited July 22, 2018 by bottlegnomes

[Ice Dragon]

1 hour ago, bottlegnomes said:

and FS Peri while solid, isn't exactly the gold standard for a PP unit.

She is literally the best player-phase lance cavalry in the game if you don't include Legendary Ephraim, and was chosen to have a direct comparison with Sully that removes confounding factors like differing colors.

 

1 hour ago, bottlegnomes said:

Elincia gets:
+atk/-res Amiti, DB, CA, attack +3:                   174, 22,   1
+atk/-res FS+, L&D, SB, attack +3:                    166,   0, 31
+atk/-res RS+ spd refine, Fury, SB, attack +3: 142, 45, 10

Actually, if you check the actual match-up list to see where you're getting losses from, you'll notice that most of the red losses incurred with any weapon that isn't Brave or Firesweep are due to the fact that there is a massive number of sword units (at least 30 from a quick glance) built for one-hit kill counterattacks, and that puts a very heavy bias towards Brave and Firesweep weapons.

 

1 hour ago, bottlegnomes said:

Re your Peri:
+atk/-res SL+ spd refine, moonbow, Fury, LB, Def Ploy, attack +3:                                                  140, 48, 10
+10 Peri [+Spd, -Def] (Firesweep Lance+, Life and Death 3, Lancebreaker 3, Def Ploy 3) +6/6: 159,   0, 38
+10 Peri [+Atk, -Def] (Brave Lance+, Luna, Swift Sparrow 2, Lancebreaker 3, Def Ploy 3) +6/6: 165, 32,  0

I have no idea where you're getting those numbers. Did you forget to set all enemies with +10 merge and +3/3/3/3 buffs (because I get similar, but not identical, numbers with that setup)?

+10 Peri [+Atk, -Def] (Sapphire Lance+ [Spd], Moonbow, Fury 3, Lancebreaker 3, Def Ploy 3) +6/6 gets me 125-54-18.
+10 Peri [+Spd, -Def] (Firesweep Lance+, Life and Death 3, Lancebreaker 3, Def Ploy 3) +6/6 gets me 97-0-100.
+10 Peri [+Atk, -Def] (Brave Lance+, Luna, Swift Sparrow 2, Lancebreaker 3, Def Ploy 3) +6/6 gets me 120-68-9.

+10 Peri [+Atk, -Def] (Sapphire Lance+, Moonbow, Fury 3, Lancebreaker 3, Def Ploy 3) +6/6 gets me 114-60-23.

The numbers when you remove green are even more lopsided with 125-11-4, 95-0-45, and 115-24-1, respectively.

Gem weapons become pretty much the best inheritable weapons in the game when given a refinement.

Also note that you can't run Attack +3 with Def Ploy 3 on the Sapphire Lance build because both take up the Sacred Seal slot. I'm assuming a standard buff skill in the passive C slot, like Hone Cavalry.

 

Also, if you don't like the fact that I'm using Peri, here is Cordelia:

+10 Cordelia [+Atk, -Res] (Sapphire Lance+ [Atk], Moonbow, Life and Death 3, Lancebreaker 3, Attack +3) +6/6 gets 129-56-12.
+10 Cordelia [+Atk, -Res] (Firesweep Lance+, Life and Death 3, Lancebreaker 3, Attack +3) +6/6 gets 131-0-66.
+10 Cordelia [+Atk, -Res] (Brave Lance+, Luna, Swift Sparrow 2, Lancebreaker 3, Attack +3) +6/6 gets 128-64-5.

+10 Cordelia [+Atk, -Res] (Sapphire Lance+, Moonbow, Life and Death 3, Lancebreaker 3, Attack +3) +6/6 gets 125-58-14. The four lost wins are from match-ups where the additional 4 Atk would have secured a kill or where the additional 5 HP would have survived a counterattack.

Not as big of a difference because Cordelia is pretty much solid with every build, but it's still notable just how good Sapphire Lance already can be and how much better it is if it receives a refine.

 

It's also worth noting that both Peri and Cordelia can survive all of the one-hit-kill builds that are rampant among sword units in this list when using Sapphire Lance, so that's not a confounding factor like with Elincia.

 

It's also worth noting on top of that that Triangle Adept's effectiveness scales far better as enemies become stronger or bulkier because all weapons fall off relatively equally at neutral weapon triangle, but Triangle Adept falls off much more slowly when at weapon triangle advantage. If I set all enemies to be running full Tactic buffs instead of full dual Rallies, refined Sapphire Lance+ becomes the clear dominant weapon for both Peri and Cordelia.

[bottlegnomes]

1 hour ago, Ice Dragon said:

She is literally the best player-phase lance cavalry in the game if you don't include Legendary Ephraim, and was chosen to have a direct comparison with Sully that removes confounding factors like differing colors.

Like I said, Peri is good, but she's still sitting at tier 5 on the Gamepress list and A on the Gampedia one. She's not exactly a metadefining unit, and a setup that makes Sully mid-tier seems perfectly reasonable. Elinica was just the first higher tier unit that came to mind that it wouldn't be beyond idiotic to run a gem weapon on, e.g. Ayra.

 

1 hour ago, Ice Dragon said:

I have no idea where you're getting those numbers. Did you forget to set all enemies with +10 merge and +3/3/3/3 buffs (because I get similar, but not identical, numbers with that setup)?

+10 Peri [+Atk, -Def] (Sapphire Lance+ [Spd], Moonbow, Fury 3, Lancebreaker 3, Def Ploy 3) +6/6 gets me 125-54-18.
+10 Peri [+Spd, -Def] (Firesweep Lance+, Life and Death 3, Lancebreaker 3, Def Ploy 3) +6/6 gets me 97-0-100.
+10 Peri [+Atk, -Def] (Brave Lance+, Luna, Swift Sparrow 2, Lancebreaker 3, Def Ploy 3) +6/6 gets me 120-68-9.

+10 Peri [+Atk, -Def] (Sapphire Lance+, Moonbow, Fury 3, Lancebreaker 3, Def Ploy 3) +6/6 gets me 114-60-23.

EDIT: I was adjusting buffs the wrong place. Now I've got your numbers. Working on others.

Edited July 22, 2018 by bottlegnomes

[Ice Dragon]

5 minutes ago, bottlegnomes said:

I actually get the exact same numbers with the enemy buffs set to +6 across the board.

Are you using "Enable Mass Enemy Adjustment" in the "Duel Rules" panel to enable the "Mass Enemy Adjustment (Custom List)" panel or are you accidentally only changing Ryoma's stats?

[bottlegnomes]

25 minutes ago, Ice Dragon said:

Are you using "Enable Mass Enemy Adjustment" in the "Duel Rules" panel to enable the "Mass Enemy Adjustment (Custom List)" panel or are you accidentally only changing Ryoma's stats?

Yeah, just realized I was.

Using that, you can get firesweep up to 107, 0, 90 and BL up to 123, 68, 6 if you attack stack. So then, yeah, SL+ is the best with a refine, but there is a bit of a tradeoff in the firesweep lance for more definite safety and ability to contribute against greens versus better combat and an enemy phase.

Now that I'm actually doing things right, decided to check Effie (+attack/-speed) since she's probably the best lance unit that doesn't have a unique weapon.

Def refined SL+, Luna, DB3, Bold Fighter, attack +3 seal:       138, 39, 20
Def refined BL+, Luna, DB3, Bold Fighter, attack +3 seal:       169, 19,   9
Brave Lance+, Moonbow, DB3, Bold Fighter, attack +3 seal: 167,  30,  0

So I mean, sure, Effie is amazing anyway, but she still prefers Berkut's Lance, apparently, or even a Brave Lance. Peri is mid-tier, and Cordelia is upper-mid/lower-top, and she performs similarly between all builds. So the higher up the tier list you go, the less the gem weapons help, which seems like exactly what would be ideal for that type of weapon and refinements in general, raise the floor not the ceiling. Low tier jumps to mid (a full tier boost), mid jumps to upper-mid/lower-top (0.5-0.75 tier jump), and top gets no major benefit.

From everything I've seen, both your calcs and my actually correct ones, refinable gem weapons raise the floor by making that the dominant weapon type for lower tier characters, and even possibly mid tier characters, but remain at best a side-grade for top tier characters if not an outright downgrade. Also true, it's not real great to make other weapons superfluous, but they seem to be intent on addressing the "forgotten" characters so to speak. I know you've expressed concerns about the number of unique weapons in the game anymore, and this seems like it'd address that while also being a more blanket fix for the truly awful characters and even a bump for the mid tier characters. But like I said, I get them testing the waters. Another Reinhardt-level meta shakeup, except even more widespread and accessible, isn't good for anything. It's just given that Titania is one of the characters more in need of an improvement, and it's a bit disappointing that, were gem weapons to ever become refinable, she'd basically have the equivalent of what Eldigan had versus slaying edges pre-refinement or Lyon has versus raven tomes.

Edited July 22, 2018 by bottlegnomes