General Weapon Refinery discussion/speculation/creation thread

[ILikeKirbys]

@colossus86 I quite like your Waterwheel. It'd be pretty neat on Oboro, letting her run Triple Close DEF for massive DEF/RES that melee foes may not overcome (plus she'd get a rather strong EP Bonfire/Ignis) or just run Distant Counter & Distant + Close DEF, and the built-in Guard would be neat too. I'd be happy if she got that. Probably wouldn't use her myself, I already have Fjorm and she's usually all that I require from Lances, but I'd give Oboro more consideration if she had a weapon like that one.
That upgrade for Leif is rather neat too.

...

So, it's about the end of the month, so here are some guesses/hopes for October's refinements, as well as a couple that I just want to see at some point:

Robin - High Deliverer & Robin - Mystery Tactician

Robin's Primer | MT 14 | Grants Weapon-Triangle Advantage vs. Colorless foes.
Skill-Refine: During combat, grants bonus ATK/SPD/DEF/RES equal to number of adjacent allies x2.

The Robins could really use a boost to become less not-great, so here they get a 14-MT Raven tome for maximum triangle advantage, which can also have an Owl-tome effect added to it to boost the Robins' stats. It's nothing too amazing, mostly it's just a tome the Robins probably like (Owl, for the +2~6 to all stats) with the one M!Robin already comes with (Raven, and with it WTA over two colors instead of just one like most Owl-users), but it could make the Robins decent.

Julia - Naga's Blood

Naga [Refine] | MT 14 | Effective vs. Dragons. When foe's range = 1, damage taken is calculated using higher of unit's DEF or RES.
Skill-Refine: When initiating combat against foe using Dragonstone with HP > 50%, this unit performs a guaranteed follow-up attack.

Julia's on a Voting Gauntlet now, and I'm choosing to hope that this means Naga will get a refinement soon. As such, this possible future Naga drops Bracing Stance 1 in favor of forcing 1-range foes to target her RES (unless you somehow get her DEF above her RES, in which case non-Dragons will target her DEF; Dragons' adaptive-damage effect would cancel out Naga's new effect, but this should work out in Julia's favor since Dragons naturally target her RES), making her more durable against melee foes, who must now target Julia's higher RES, and especially Dragons, who can no longer target Julia's lower DEF for massive damage. The skill-refine is basically Dragonbreaker 3, allowing Julia to kill more dragons by near-guaranteeing her a second shot at them if her first proves to not quite be enough. If nothing else, such a refinement should help Julia take on Dragons.

Bartre - Fearless Warrior

Devil Axe | MT 16 | Grants ATK/DEF +5 during combat. Inflicts 5 damage after combat.
Skill-Refine: When HP > 50% and initiating combat against a foe that can counter, this unit performs a guaranteed follow-up attack.

Being a Fearless Warrior, Bartre should have no problem with the idea of using a weapon that kills its wielders, so he's getting the Devil Axe, which gives a Ragnarok-style ATK/DEF boost that makes Bartre stronger (a +ATK Bartre reaches 60 base ATK with this weapon) and physically sturdier (that same +ATK Bartre hits 38 base DEF, and a +DEF Bartre would reach 41) in exchange for sapping his HP after every combat. The Skill-Refine gives Bartre Forseti-style Brash Assault, which combines nicely with the Brash Assault he has in his base kit (or the Sacred Seal, if you wanna run a different B Skill) to give him Brash Assault Always and allow him to double against foes that can counterattack him regardless of his HP, which is good because base-kit Bartre also comes with Fury, so that HP would be ticking away continuously after any and every combat, even ones where he wasn't able to do anything. This weapon may mandate running with a healer to keep Bartre's weapon and maybe Fury from bringing his HP too far down, or some other way of ensuring that Bartre doesn't take a hit once his HP gets too low to handle doing so, but with it Bartre could be a very strong axeman.

Niles - Cruel To Be Kind

Niles's Bow | MT 14 | Grants Special Cooldown -1.
Skill-Refine: After combat, if unit attacked, reduces movement to 1 space for target and foes adjacent to target through their next actions.

Since he's on a Voting Gauntlet banner and could probably use a prf, Niles pulls out his own personal Slaying Bow, essentially just giving him a better version of what he already has for no Refining Stones. The Skill-Refine references Niles's personal skill Capture from Fates, allowing him to restrain his foes' movement Gravity+-style. If nothing else, it's a stronger Slaying Bow+, and Niles could probably use the extra ATK.

Not hoping for all of these this month (I'm guessing Robins/Julia/Niles, personally, since the Robins and Niles don't have prfs and IMO Julia's default prf could use a buff), but I'm hoping for at least the Robins and Julia.

[Vajra]

Quan 

Gáe Bolg (Refined): 16 Mt. If unit's Def - foe's Def > 1, grants Special cooldown charge +1 per attack. (Only highest value applied. Does not stack.)

The original incarnation of this weapon gave stat bonuses to Attack, Defense, and Skill; the Heroes version referenced two of these boosts. The Skill stat often seemed to translate to faster Special activation in Heroes as we have seen this with both variants of Eldigan's Mystletainn, as well as Ishtar's Mjölnir. We currently have passives that rely on the Atk and Spd stats to quickly proc Specials via Heavy Blade and Flashing Blade, respectively, and given Quan's naturally solid Def stat, further enhanced by the Def boost in Gáe Bolg's original effect along with other Defense boosting passives, I think it could work quite well. Alternatively, simply giving it the accelerated Special cooldown effect like the aforementioned weapons would also do fine in referencing the Skill boost. 

Finn 

Meisterlanze: 11 Mt. Inflicts Spd -5. Unit attacks twice. (Even if foe initiates combat, unit attacks twice.)

The lance version of Reinhardt's Prf sword in Heroes. If Finn made his Heroes debut as a banner unit, I imagine he would have been given something like this for a weapon. 

[Jotari]

1 hour ago, ILikeKirbys said:

@colossus86 I quite like your Waterwheel. It'd be pretty neat on Oboro, letting her run Triple Close DEF for massive DEF/RES that melee foes may not overcome (plus she'd get a rather strong EP Bonfire/Ignis) or just run Distant Counter & Distant + Close DEF, and the built-in Guard would be neat too. I'd be happy if she got that. Probably wouldn't use her myself, I already have Fjorm and she's usually all that I require from Lances, but I'd give Oboro more consideration if she had a weapon like that one.
That upgrade for Leif is rather neat too.

...

So, it's about the end of the month, so here are some guesses/hopes for October's refinements, as well as a couple that I just want to see at some point:

Robin - High Deliverer & Robin - Mystery Tactician

Robin's Primer | MT 14 | Grants Weapon-Triangle Advantage vs. Colorless foes.
Skill-Refine: During combat, grants bonus ATK/SPD/DEF/RES equal to number of adjacent allies x2.

The Robins could really use a boost to become less not-great, so here they get a 14-MT Raven tome for maximum triangle advantage, which can also have an Owl-tome effect added to it to boost the Robins' stats. It's nothing too amazing, mostly it's just a tome the Robins probably like (Owl, for the +2~6 to all stats) with the one M!Robin already comes with (Raven, and with it WTA over two colors instead of just one like most Owl-users), but it could make the Robins decent.

Julia - Naga's Blood

Naga [Refine] | MT 14 | Effective vs. Dragons. When foe's range = 1, damage taken is calculated using higher of unit's DEF or RES.
Skill-Refine: When initiating combat against foe using Dragonstone with HP > 50%, this unit performs a guaranteed follow-up attack.

Julia's on a Voting Gauntlet now, and I'm choosing to hope that this means Naga will get a refinement soon. As such, this possible future Naga drops Bracing Stance 1 in favor of forcing 1-range foes to target her RES (unless you somehow get her DEF above her RES, in which case non-Dragons will target her DEF; Dragons' adaptive-damage effect would cancel out Naga's new effect, but this should work out in Julia's favor since Dragons naturally target her RES), making her more durable against melee foes, who must now target Julia's higher RES, and especially Dragons, who can no longer target Julia's lower DEF for massive damage. The skill-refine is basically Dragonbreaker 3, allowing Julia to kill more dragons by near-guaranteeing her a second shot at them if her first proves to not quite be enough. If nothing else, such a refinement should help Julia take on Dragons.

Bartre - Fearless Warrior

Devil Axe | MT 16 | Grants ATK/DEF +5 during combat. Inflicts 5 damage after combat.
Skill-Refine: When HP > 50% and initiating combat against a foe that can counter, this unit performs a guaranteed follow-up attack.

Being a Fearless Warrior, Bartre should have no problem with the idea of using a weapon that kills its wielders, so he's getting the Devil Axe, which gives a Ragnarok-style ATK/DEF boost that makes Bartre stronger (a +ATK Bartre reaches 60 base ATK with this weapon) and physically sturdier (that same +ATK Bartre hits 38 base DEF, and a +DEF Bartre would reach 41) in exchange for sapping his HP after every combat. The Skill-Refine gives Bartre Forseti-style Brash Assault, which combines nicely with the Brash Assault he has in his base kit (or the Sacred Seal, if you wanna run a different B Skill) to give him Brash Assault Always and allow him to double against foes that can counterattack him regardless of his HP, which is good because base-kit Bartre also comes with Fury, so that HP would be ticking away continuously after any and every combat, even ones where he wasn't able to do anything. This weapon may mandate running with a healer to keep Bartre's weapon and maybe Fury from bringing his HP too far down, or some other way of ensuring that Bartre doesn't take a hit once his HP gets too low to handle doing so, but with it Bartre could be a very strong axeman.

Niles - Cruel To Be Kind

Niles's Bow | MT 14 | Grants Special Cooldown -1.
Skill-Refine: After combat, if unit attacked, reduces movement to 1 space for target and foes adjacent to target through their next actions.

Since he's on a Voting Gauntlet banner and could probably use a prf, Niles pulls out his own personal Slaying Bow, essentially just giving him a better version of what he already has for no Refining Stones. The Skill-Refine references Niles's personal skill Capture from Fates, allowing him to restrain his foes' movement Gravity+-style. If nothing else, it's a stronger Slaying Bow+, and Niles could probably use the extra ATK.

Not hoping for all of these this month (I'm guessing Robins/Julia/Niles, personally, since the Robins and Niles don't have prfs and IMO Julia's default prf could use a buff), but I'm hoping for at least the Robins and Julia.

That would give a +Res Julia 35 defense against basically everything but bows and daggers (before skills, and bare in mind, something like Warding Stance will now affect almost any incoming attack). Which isn't completely broken, but it is a little extreme imo (Sigurd could still probably mixed tank better thanks to Tufting, but he's about the only unit that could). I'd probably just change it so she's immune to adaptive damage. Giving her the ability to tank physical melee units is going quite a bit beyond her niche.

Edited September 30, 2018 by Jotari

[Fabulously Olivier]

Innes - Regal Strategician

Niddhogg - 14 MT Owl tome effect & Attack/Res Bond 3. 

 

Robin - High Deliverer & Robin - Mystery Tactician

Robin's Primer - 14 MT Weapon advantage against colorless foes. Owl tome effect.

 

Lukas - Sharp Soldier & Clive - Idealistic Knight

Deliverance - 11 mt. Spd -5. When unit initiates combat, unit attacks twice. If Unit's Def > Foe's Def, increases damage by 1 for each point difference (max 7). 

 

Hawkeye - Desert Guardian

Guardian Axe - 16 MT. Effective Against Dragons. Quick Riposte EX. Strength of Stone (Spd - 5, Attack/Def/Res +3). 

 

Lyon - Shadow Prince

Naglfar - 14 MT. Grants weapon advantage against colorless foes. Quick Riposte 3.

 

Barst - The Hatchet

Barst's Hatchet - 16 MT. Accelerates special trigger (charge -1). +10 damage on Special Trigger.

 

Seth - Silver Knight 

Paragon Blade - 16 Might. Attack/Spd Bond 3. If unit is within 2 spaces of support partner, unit and ally gain attack/spd +3. 

Edited September 30, 2018 by Etheus

[Kaden]

On 9/29/2018 at 8:37 AM, Titamon said:

Ninian

Frost Breath: 16 MT. Unit can counterattack regardless of distance. If foe's range = 2, damage is calculated using lower of foes def or res.

Unique refine: If Sing or Dance is used, target and unit are also granted Def/Res+6.

So, a defensive version of Skuld and Udor which grants Atk/Spd/Def/Res+3. I'm not sure if going full defense would be well-liked by people. The other thing is that at this point, no weapon with built-in Distant Counter has an additional effect. This also includes Dragonstones since the developers pretty much solidified the fact that all Dragonstones will have adaptive damage against ranged units. Basically, if you give Ninian a Distant Counter Dragonstone, then you'll have to remove its unique refine effect and vice versa.

Off-topic: Nice Kurama avatar. That brings back memories.

4 hours ago, Etheus said:

Hawkeye - Desert Guardian

Guardian Axe - 16 MT. Effective Against Dragons. Quick Riposte 3. Strength of Stone (Spd - 5, Attack/Def/Res +3).

Lyon - Shadow Prince

Naglfar - 14 MT. Triangle Adept. Quick Riposte 3.

Roy's Binding Blade gains Quick Riposte EX with its unique refine and Maltet has it too as its base effect (because special cooldown count-1 and Vengeful Fighter 3 would be even more busted on a guy who comes with an exclusive Distant Counter skill because he won the men's division of CYL2 and Bold Fighter 3 as his default B passive). At this point, might as well give that to them as well for a hypothetical refine or new weapon. I would not be surprised if regular Armads gains Vengeful Fighter as its refined effect or unique refine whenever that happens. Specifically for Hawkeye, he'd gain his effects in the opposite order to Roy's Binding Blade, QR first then an additional effect to Roy's Bracing Stance 2 first then QR as its additional effect.

[Titamon]

52 minutes ago, Kaden said:

So, a defensive version of Skuld and Udor which grants Atk/Spd/Def/Res+3. I'm not sure if going full defense would be well-liked by people. The other thing is that at this point, no weapon with built-in Distant Counter has an additional effect. This also includes Dragonstones since the developers pretty much solidified the fact that all Dragonstones will have adaptive damage against ranged units. Basically, if you give Ninian a Distant Counter Dragonstone, then you'll have to remove its unique refine effect and vice versa.

Rules were made to be broken. Look at L!Tiki, she has a DC weapon with adaptive damage against ranged units and it's also effective against dragons.

[Fabulously Olivier]

58 minutes ago, Kaden said:

So, a defensive version of Skuld and Udor which grants Atk/Spd/Def/Res+3. I'm not sure if going full defense would be well-liked by people. The other thing is that at this point, no weapon with built-in Distant Counter has an additional effect. This also includes Dragonstones since the developers pretty much solidified the fact that all Dragonstones will have adaptive damage against ranged units. Basically, if you give Ninian a Distant Counter Dragonstone, then you'll have to remove its unique refine effect and vice versa.

Off-topic: Nice Kurama avatar. That brings back memories.

Roy's Binding Blade gains Quick Riposte EX with its unique refine and Maltet has it too as its base effect (because special cooldown count-1 and Vengeful Fighter 3 would be even more busted on a guy who comes with an exclusive Distant Counter skill because he won the men's division of CYL2 and Bold Fighter 3 as his default B passive). At this point, might as well give that to them as well for a hypothetical refine or new weapon. I would not be surprised if regular Armads gains Vengeful Fighter as its refined effect or unique refine whenever that happens. Specifically for Hawkeye, he'd gain his effects in the opposite order to Roy's Binding Blade, QR first then an additional effect to Roy's Bracing Stance 2 first then QR as its additional effect.

Point taken for Hawkeye. I'd be more hesitant to give that to Lyon on account of him being ranged. We don't have a precedent for a ranged character getting Quick Riposte EX.

[colossus86]

10 minutes ago, Titamon said:

Rules were made to be broken. Look at L!Tiki, she has a DC weapon with adaptive damage against ranged units and it's also effective against dragons.

Both adaptaive damage on breaths and single instance eff damage are considered "free effects" by IS so as far as they're concerned, Tikis weapon is on par with Expiration. Its the same reason Jaffar's deathly dagger isn't considered to have 3 effects. The def/res debuff is free for refined daggers. There's no way that Ninian weapon would fly until we hit gen 3 weapons. And i would imagine they'd introduce that with new heroes to sell a banner rather than refines.

I know the whole free effect thing can be a bit tough to justify but consider this: if the other team doesn't have dragons, Divine Mist is identical to Expiration. If god forbid, the other team doesn't have dragons or ranged units, tiki is litetally using an unrefined flametongue.

[bottlegnomes]

22 minutes ago, Titamon said:

Rules were made to be broken. Look at L!Tiki, she has a DC weapon with adaptive damage against ranged units and it's also effective against dragons.

Effective damage, or at least one instance of it on a weapon, seems to be considered a free effect as well, e.g. young Summer Tiki, all the Falchions, Divine Mist, etc. You could give it effective damage against a non-infantry movement type or dragons, and have it retain either DC or the dance effect, for example. I'm not saying that makes sense or is reasonable, but it's what IS seems to be doing (and doesn't make any less sense from a balance PoV than considering the two effects on Berserk Armads equivalent to the two effects on, say, Noatun).

Edited September 30, 2018 by bottlegnomes

[Kaden]

22 minutes ago, Titamon said:

Rules were made to be broken. Look at L!Tiki, she has a DC weapon with adaptive damage against ranged units and it's also effective against dragons.

This has been discussed before.

On 9/12/2018 at 12:32 PM, Ice Dragon said:

Effective damage is typically considered to be a free effect. For example, all of the refined Falchions, Exalted Falchion, refined Dauntless Lance, Thani, etc. all have two non-free effects on top of effective damage.

Adaptive damage on breath weapons is also considered to be a free effect, similar to debuffs on daggers.

Breath of Fog, for example, has dragon effectiveness, adaptive damage against ranged weapons, Renewal 3, and its refine effect. Cloud Maiougi has dragon effectiveness, dagger debuff, Hardy Bearing 3, and its refine effect.

The developers are treating adaptive damage against ranged units and effective damage as a free effect. Distant Counter is the one effect Divine Mist gets just as every other Distant Counter weapon. They just decided to add in effective damage against dragons which isn't a common effect for weapons in general and like all the other Dragonstones, it has adaptive damage against ranged units. Expiration wasn't given effective damage? Tough luck for Grima. Even tougher for the Black Knight, Camus, Dorcas, Fjorm, Hardin, Ike, Ryoma, and Xander who don't even have any other, free effect.

If you want rules to be broken, then Reinhardt's Dire Thunder should have adaptive damage against all units as its upgraded effect and Death Blow 4 as its unique refine, Odin's Grimoire should have been a personal -blade tome that ignored resistance, and the Black Knight and Zelgius's Alondite should gain Spectrum Breath as its unique effect.

Edited September 30, 2018 by Kaden

[Titamon]

3 hours ago, colossus86 said:

Both adaptaive damage on breaths and single instance eff damage are considered "free effects" by IS so as far as they're concerned, Tikis weapon is on par with Expiration. Its the same reason Jaffar's deathly dagger isn't considered to have 3 effects. The def/res debuff is free for refined daggers. There's no way that Ninian weapon would fly until we hit gen 3 weapons. And i would imagine they'd introduce that with new heroes to sell a banner rather than refines.

I know the whole free effect thing can be a bit tough to justify but consider this: if the other team doesn't have dragons, Divine Mist is identical to Expiration. If god forbid, the other team doesn't have dragons or ranged units, tiki is litetally using an unrefined flametongue.

Wow, effective damage is considered a free effect by IS? How on gods green earth can they even justify that? 

Now I am really side-eyeing them for not making Durandal effective against dragons.

[bottlegnomes]

10 minutes ago, Titamon said:

Wow, effective damage is considered a free effect by IS? How on gods green earth can they even justify that? 

Now I am really side-eyeing them for not making Durandal effective against dragons.

From what attention I've paid (not a ton), it seems like something they really started with gen 2, possibly to justify the Falchions getting a refinement effect. Gen 1 legendary weapons generally had a level 2 effect and then Falchion was the odd man out with 2 effects, probably because it's the flagship sword. With gen 2, all legendary weapons had two level 3 effects plus whatever innate effects their weapon type had and any "free" effects. Granted, that doesn't even exactly hold true, unless IS starts counting deflects as free effects since Urvan has a killer effect + deflect melee + deflect magic + deflect missile.

Edited September 30, 2018 by bottlegnomes

[MegaBlaziken721]

Hinata's Katana (Hinata: Wild Samurai) - 16 Mt

• If foe initiates combat, grants Atk+6 during combat.
• Hinata's Katana can be upgraded with the following effect: If unit's HP ≤ 50% and foe uses sword, lance, axe or dragonstone, boosts damage dealt by 50% of damage dealt to unit during combat.

Hana's Katana (Hana: Focused Samurai) - 16 Mt

• If unit initiates combat, grants Atk+6 during combat.
• Hana's Katana can be upgraded with the following effect: If unit initiates combat and target is defeated, all foes within 2 spaces of target take damage equal to (damage dealt to target - target's HP at start of combat + 7). (Minimum of 7 damage.)

Peri's Lance (Peri: Playful Slayer) - 16 Mt

• Accelerates Special trigger (cooldown count -1). Grants Atk/Spd+4 during combat. Deals 4 damage to unit after combat.
• Peri's Lance can be upgraded with the following effect: If unit initiates combat and target is defeated, grants Atk/Spd+6 for 1 turn and Special cooldown count-1 after combat.

Laslow's Blade (Laslow: Dancing Duelist) - 16 Mt

• Grants Spd+3. At the start of every second turn, restores 10 HP.
• Laslow's Blade can be upgraded with the following effect: At start of even-numbered turns, grants Atk/Spd+4 to unit and adjacent allies for 1 turn. (Bonus granted to unit even if no allies are adjacent.)

Selena's Blade (Selena: Cutting Wit) - 16 Mt

• If foe initiates combat, grants Spd+6 during combat.
• Selena's Blade can be upgraded with the following effect: If unit is adjacent to an ally and unit or ally's Special triggers before or during combat, grants Special cooldown count-1 to unit and ally after combat.

[Fabulously Olivier]

6 minutes ago, MegaBlaziken721 said:

Hinata's Katana (Hinata: Wild Samurai) - 16 Mt

• If foe initiates combat, grants Atk+6 during combat.
• Hinata's Katana can be upgraded with the following effect: If unit's HP ≤ 50% and foe uses sword, lance, axe or dragonstone, boosts damage dealt by 50% of damage dealt to unit during combat.

Hana's Katana (Hana: Focused Samurai) - 16 Mt

• If unit initiates combat, grants Atk+6 during combat.
• Hana's Katana can be upgraded with the following effect: If unit initiates combat and target is defeated, all foes within 2 spaces of target take damage equal to (damage dealt to target - target's HP at start of combat + 7). (Minimum of 7 damage.)

Peri's Lance (Peri: Playful Slayer) - 16 Mt

• Accelerates Special trigger (cooldown count -1). Grants Atk/Spd+4 during combat. Deals 4 damage to unit after combat.
• Peri's Lance can be upgraded with the following effect: If unit initiates combat and target is defeated, grants Atk/Spd+6 for 1 turn and Special cooldown count-1 after combat.

Laslow's Blade (Laslow: Dancing Duelist) - 16 Mt

• Grants Spd+3. At the start of every second turn, restores 10 HP.
• Laslow's Blade can be upgraded with the following effect: At start of even-numbered turns, grants Atk/Spd+4 to unit and adjacent allies for 1 turn. (Bonus granted to unit even if no allies are adjacent.)

Selena's Blade (Selena: Cutting Wit) - 16 Mt

• If foe initiates combat, grants Spd+6 during combat.
• Selena's Blade can be upgraded with the following effect: If unit is adjacent to an ally and unit or ally's Special triggers before or during combat, grants Special cooldown count-1 to unit and ally after combat.

Hinata - interesting idea, but probably impractical in implementation. A more effective/reliable implementation would be "add 25% of damage suffered by unit to damage dealt when Special triggers." That could go a long way with a Fierce Breath or Steady Breath build.

Hana - interesting and potentially useful. 

Peri - 3 effects with a special cooldown reduction? That's unreasonable when Nameless Blade, Basilikos, etc. only have special trigger acceleration as a base effect with one additional bonus on refine.

Lazlow - this isn't going to help him in any way, shape, or form. His speed is unsalvageable. Better to give him a stronger Brave Sword as the base effect with a bonus of choice on refine.

Selena - This is also not going to be of any use to her for the opposite reason of Lazlow. While her speed is good-ish, her attack stat is very poor and she needs a weapon that can patch that up or provide an alternative means of boosting damage. 

[Ice Dragon]

1 hour ago, Titamon said:

Wow, effective damage is considered a free effect by IS? How on gods green earth can they even justify that? 

Now I am really side-eyeing them for not making Durandal effective against dragons.

"Free effect" is a one-way relation. Effective damage (and other free effects) don't count towards a weapon's two effects, but that doesn't mean weapons just get free effects willy nilly.

In particular, Elibe's legendary weapons (the eight that don't include the Binding Blade) don't receive dragon effectiveness, which was likely a decision made before the game's launch to prevent dragon effectiveness from becoming too common, basically limiting it to the weapons more uniquely identified as designed to defeat dragons.

Edited September 30, 2018 by Ice Dragon

[MegaBlaziken721]

@Etheus How are these for reworks?

Hinata's Katana (Hinata: Wild Samurai) - 16 Mt

• If foe initiates combat, grants Atk+6 during combat.
• Hinata's Katana can be upgraded with the following effect: If unit's HP ≤ 50% and foe uses sword, lance, axe or dragonstone, grants bonus to damage dealt equal to 30% of damage suffered.when Special triggers. 

Hana's Katana (Hana: Focused Samurai) - 16 Mt

• If unit initiates combat, grants Atk+6 during combat.
• Hana's Katana can be upgraded with the following effect: If unit initiates combat and target is defeated, foes within 2 spaces of target take damage equal to (damage dealt to target - target's HP at start of combat + 7). (Minimum of 7 damage.)

Peri's Lance (Peri: Playful Slayer) - 16 Mt

• Grants Spd+2. Accelerates Special trigger (cooldown count -1). 
• Peri's Lance can be upgraded with the following effect: If unit initiates combat and target is defeated, grants Atk/Spd+5 for 1 turn and Special cooldown count-1 after combat.

Laslow's Blade (Laslow: Dancing Duelist) - 11 Mt

• Inflicts Spd-2. If unit initiates combat, unit attacks twice.
• Laslow's Blade can be upgraded with the following effect: At start of even-numbered turns, grants Atk/Def+4 to unit and adjacent allies for 1 turn. (Bonus granted to unit even if no allies are adjacent.)

Selena's Blade (Selena: Cutting Wit) - 16 Mt

• Grants Atk/Spd+2. If unit's Spd > foe's Spd, boosts damage dealt by 70% of difference between stats. (Maximum of 7 damage. Combos with Phantom Spd.)
• Selena's Blade can be upgraded with the following effect: If unit is adjacent to an ally and unit or ally's Special triggers before or during combat, grants Atk/Spd+3 and Special cooldown count-1 to unit and ally after combat. Deals +10 damage when Special triggers.

[Kaden]

Well, this is awkward. Apparently Bolt Axe has effective damage against dragons in Path of Radiance and is used by Gromell, a wyvern lord. Those two things alone are pretty awesome as we don't have an axe flier with effective damage against dragons nor do we have a physical damage unit who naturally comes with an anti-dragon weapon. Summer kid Tiki is currently the only flier with effective damage against dragons and you need to inherit Cloud Maiougi to ninjabbit Kagero to have a flier with effective damage against dragons.

Point being, I wanted to come up with an idea for Libra even though it's early since he was recently introduced, but I like him and similar to Cherche, he's commonly drawn with a particular weapon, the Bolt Axe in this case, in his artworks. Libra is shown with a Bolt Axe for his official Awakening artwork, his Cipher card artwork, and his Heroes artwork. They could change the name of the axe for either of them, probably for Libra since PoR introduced it, or they could give to both of them, but the problem with that is Bolt Axe in the main games is a 1-2 range axe on top of its other effects. In that case, it would sell better -- I know, cruel -- on a new unit and a regularly summonable axe flier to boot if Gromell's Bolt Axe were this: "16 Mt. Effective against dragon foes. Unit can counterattack regardless of foe's range." His resistance would likely be crap as a wyvern lord, but if he can take one hit from mage, that might be all he needs to counter-kill them. Now, had Libra had this Bolt Axe, he'd probably be considered really good due to his high attack and mixed bulk along with the fact that with his respectable resistance, fighting dragons wouldn't be that difficult for Libra. So, Libra's going to be put on hold.

Somebody already talked about Virion, but here's a simple and wacky idea for him.

Archest Arc*: 14 Mt. "Effective against flying foes. At start of turn, converts bonuses on foes in cardinal directions with HP < unit's HP into penalties through their next actions." Unique refinement: "At start of combat, if unit's HP ≥ foe's HP, grants Atk/Spd+6 during combat."

It's all about leveraging his high HP and kind of making fun of it. The Fire/Wind Boost thing was to try and make a Boost effect more practical than the Blow skills or any A skill for that matter. In this case, as long as Virion's HP is 1 point higher than his foe, then he gets a massive attack and speed boost. It's definitely not as good as having Death Blow, Swift Sparrow, or whatever, but it's just a weird idea for him.

Leo lost his gravity effect for Brynhildr in Heroes, so let's have someone else take up the mantle of being a non-healer with a gravity weapon.

Sweet Steal: 14 Mt. "After combat, if unit attacked, inflicts Def/Res-7 on target and foes within 2 spaces of target through their next actions and status on target and foes within 1 space of target restricting movement to 1 space through their next actions." Unique refinement: "If unit initiates combat, 7 HP to adjacent allies after combat."

You can probably guess whose dagger idea this is for. Yes, it's totally Saizo who hates sweets. No, it's for Gaius. I don't know, Gaius likes sweets and has a bunch of sweets on him. Sweets can be sticky, especially if you make a mess with them (Gravity effect), and most people like eating them (Breath of Life). The unique refinement isn't the greatest of ideas, but I couldn't think of much. I guess it could have the same effect as unique refined Deathly Dagger where mages can't counterattack as a reference to Gaius unwittingly being sent to help assassinate Emmeryn who is a sage. Also, maybe calling it Sugar Daddy could work too, but that could infringe on copyright.

*Arc means bow in French, hence, archer, and Virion seems vaguely French or they were trying to make or based him on a French, Spanish, whatever stereotypical European romantic. The other thing is Cherche is a French word that means "look" and they're both from Rosanne which if it's pronounced the way I think it is, then it sounds kind of Frenchy. I have no idea how "Archest" would be translated into any language.

[colossus86]

25 minutes ago, Kaden said:

Well, this is awkward. Apparently Bolt Axe has effective damage against dragons in Path of Radiance and is used by Gromell, a wyvern lord. Those two things alone are pretty awesome as we don't have an axe flier with effective damage against dragons nor do we have a physical damage unit who naturally comes with an anti-dragon weapon. Summer kid Tiki is currently the only flier with effective damage against dragons and you need to inherit Cloud Maiougi to ninjabbit Kagero to have a flier with effective damage against dragons.

Point being, I wanted to come up with an idea for Libra even though it's early since he was recently introduced, but I like him and similar to Cherche, he's commonly drawn with a particular weapon, the Bolt Axe in this case, in his artworks. Libra is shown with a Bolt Axe for his official Awakening artwork, his Cipher card artwork, and his Heroes artwork. They could change the name of the axe for either of them, probably for Libra since PoR introduced it, or they could give to both of them, but the problem with that is Bolt Axe in the main games is a 1-2 range axe on top of its other effects. In that case, it would sell better -- I know, cruel -- on a new unit and a regularly summonable axe flier to boot if Gromell's Bolt Axe were this: "16 Mt. Effective against dragon foes. Unit can counterattack regardless of foe's range." His resistance would likely be crap as a wyvern lord, but if he can take one hit from mage, that might be all he needs to counter-kill them. Now, had Libra had this Bolt Axe, he'd probably be considered really good due to his high attack and mixed bulk along with the fact that with his respectable resistance, fighting dragons wouldn't be that difficult for Libra. So, Libra's going to be put on hold.

Somebody already talked about Virion, but here's a simple and wacky idea for him.

Archest Arc*: 14 Mt. "Effective against flying foes. At start of turn, converts bonuses on foes in cardinal directions with HP < unit's HP into penalties through their next actions." Unique refinement: "At start of combat, if unit's HP ≥ foe's HP, grants Atk/Spd+6 during combat."

It's all about leveraging his high HP and kind of making fun of it. The Fire/Wind Boost thing was to try and make a Boost effect more practical than the Blow skills or any A skill for that matter. In this case, as long as Virion's HP is 1 point higher than his foe, then he gets a massive attack and speed boost. It's definitely not as good as having Death Blow, Swift Sparrow, or whatever, but it's just a weird idea for him.

Leo lost his gravity effect for Brynhildr in Heroes, so let's have someone else take up the mantle of being a non-healer with a gravity weapon.

Sweet Steal: 14 Mt. "After combat, if unit attacked, inflicts Def/Res-7 on target and foes within 2 spaces of target through their next actions and status on target and foes within 1 space of target restricting movement to 1 space through their next actions." Unique refinement: "If unit initiates combat, 7 HP to adjacent allies after combat."

You can probably guess whose dagger idea this is for. Yes, it's totally Saizo who hates sweets. No, it's for Gaius. I don't know, Gaius likes sweets and has a bunch of sweets on him. Sweets can be sticky, especially if you make a mess with them (Gravity effect), and most people like eating them (Breath of Life). The unique refinement isn't the greatest of ideas, but I couldn't think of much. I guess it could have the same effect as unique refined Deathly Dagger where mages can't counterattack as a reference to Gaius unwittingly being sent to help assassinate Emmeryn who is a sage. Also, maybe calling it Sugar Daddy could work too, but that could infringe on copyright.

*Arc means bow in French, hence, archer, and Virion seems vaguely French or they were trying to make or based him on a French, Spanish, whatever stereotypical European romantic. The other thing is Cherche is a French word that means "look" and they're both from Rosanne which if it's pronounced the way I think it is, then it sounds kind of Frenchy. I have no idea how "Archest" would be translated into any language.

The Bolt Axe in PoR was eff dragons only because everything that had anything to do with lightning in Tellius was eff against dragon laguz. It's Extremely unlikely that would carry over into heroes especially given the absence of laguz from the game. If anything, I'd just be the axe version of light brand

Edited October 1, 2018 by colossus86

[Fabulously Olivier]

1 hour ago, MegaBlaziken721 said:

@Etheus How are these for reworks?

Hinata's Katana (Hinata: Wild Samurai) - 16 Mt

• If foe initiates combat, grants Atk+6 during combat.
• Hinata's Katana can be upgraded with the following effect: If unit's HP ≤ 50% and foe uses sword, lance, axe or dragonstone, grants bonus to damage dealt equal to 30% of damage suffered.when Special triggers. 

Hana's Katana (Hana: Focused Samurai) - 16 Mt

• If unit initiates combat, grants Atk+6 during combat.
• Hana's Katana can be upgraded with the following effect: If unit initiates combat and target is defeated, foes within 2 spaces of target take damage equal to (damage dealt to target - target's HP at start of combat + 7). (Minimum of 7 damage.)

Peri's Lance (Peri: Playful Slayer) - 16 Mt

• Grants Spd+2. Accelerates Special trigger (cooldown count -1). 
• Peri's Lance can be upgraded with the following effect: If unit initiates combat and target is defeated, grants Atk/Spd+5 for 1 turn and Special cooldown count-1 after combat.

Laslow's Blade (Laslow: Dancing Duelist) - 11 Mt

• Inflicts Spd-2. If unit initiates combat, unit attacks twice.
• Laslow's Blade can be upgraded with the following effect: At start of even-numbered turns, grants Atk/Def+4 to unit and adjacent allies for 1 turn. (Bonus granted to unit even if no allies are adjacent.)

Selena's Blade (Selena: Cutting Wit) - 16 Mt

• Grants Atk/Spd+2. If unit's Spd > foe's Spd, boosts damage dealt by 70% of difference between stats. (Maximum of 7 damage. Combos with Phantom Spd.)
• Selena's Blade can be upgraded with the following effect: If unit is adjacent to an ally and unit or ally's Special triggers before or during combat, grants Atk/Spd+3 and Special cooldown count-1 to unit and ally after combat. Deals +10 damage when Special triggers.

I would suggest these:

Hinata's Katana (Hinata: Wild Samurai) - 16 Mt

• If foe initiates combat, grants Atk+6 during combat.
• Hinata's Katana can be upgraded with the following effect: Grants bonus to damage dealt equal to 30% of damage suffered.when Special triggers. 

I don't think that an hp threshold is necessary to balance this skill when it already draws strength on damage suffered. I also don't think an enemy weapon type requirement is necessary to balance this skill.

Selena's Blade (Selena: Cutting Wit) - 16 Mt

• If unit's Spd > foe's Spd, boosts damage dealt by 70% of difference between stats. (Maximum of 7 damage. Combos with Phantom Spd.)
• Selena's Blade can be upgraded with the following effect: Attack/Speed Bond 3.

Your suggestion gave Selena a whopping 4 effects on her weapon, making it one of the strongest weapons in the game. I just kept the core effect while changing the stat bonus to Atk/Spd Bond 3 in reference to her passive in Fates. 

 

[Ice Dragon]

1 hour ago, MegaBlaziken721 said:

Grants Spd+2. Accelerates Special trigger (cooldown count -1).

1 hour ago, MegaBlaziken721 said:

Grants Atk/Spd+2. If unit's Spd > foe's Spd, boosts damage dealt by 70% of difference between stats. (Maximum of 7 damage. Combos with Phantom Spd.)

Stat boosts count toward a weapon's two effects. If the weapon can be refined, it won't have a stat boost on top of another base skill.

 

1 hour ago, MegaBlaziken721 said:

Inflicts Spd-2. If unit initiates combat, unit attacks twice.

That's also a stat boost. Amiti has -2 Spd because it's a combination of the -5 Spd from the Brave effect and +3 Spd from Speed +3.

 

1 hour ago, MegaBlaziken721 said:

If unit initiates combat and target is defeated, grants Atk/Spd+5 for 1 turn and Special cooldown count-1 after combat.

Field buffs expire at the beginning of the next turn. Unless Peri has Galeforce or you are using a dancer, the +5 Atk and Spd are completely wasted because Peri is not good at fighting on enemy phase.

[Jotari]

6 hours ago, Titamon said:

Wow, effective damage is considered a free effect by IS? How on gods green earth can they even justify that? 

Now I am really side-eyeing them for not making Durandal effective against dragons.

I'm guessing its to make the Falchion's more interesting and varied from each other. As far as Durandal goes, it probably wasn't effective against dragons as it would mean making all the Elibe weapons effective against dragons which would result in far too many Effective Against Dragons weapons. The Sealed Sword definitely should have been effective against dragons without refine though (and should have had Distant Counter).

6 hours ago, bottlegnomes said:

From what attention I've paid (not a ton), it seems like something they really started with gen 2, possibly to justify the Falchions getting a refinement effect. Gen 1 legendary weapons generally had a level 2 effect and then Falchion was the odd man out with 2 effects, probably because it's the flagship sword. With gen 2, all legendary weapons had two level 3 effects plus whatever innate effects their weapon type had and any "free" effects. Granted, that doesn't even exactly hold true, unless IS starts counting deflects as free effects since Urvan has a killer effect + deflect melee + deflect magic + deflect missile.

Urvan just has a killer effect + deflect all. To paraphrase what someone else said, treating such effects as separate would be like saying Fury has four effects (Atk+3, Spd+3, Def+3, Res+3).

Edited October 1, 2018 by Jotari

[Diovani Bressan]

Lon’qu will receive a new weapon, the "Solitary Blade", while Tana and Innes will receive a refinement for their weapons...

I can see the Solitary Blade having a Solo skill, like Atk/Spd Solo.

[Garlyle]

23 minutes ago, Diovani Bressan said:

Lon’qu will receive a new weapon, the "Solitary Blade", while Tana and Innes will receive a refinement for their weapons...

I can see the Solitary Blade having a Solo skill, like Atk/Spd Solo.

It could be also Atk/Def Solo. Atk/Spd might be more appropriate, but I have a feeling Solo it still new to get Atk/Spd version, and Lon'qu is fast enough, so he might not need the Spd bonus.

[TheWill]

Lon'qu getting one gives me hope for Athena to get one...

I'd really like Athena to get something that distinguishes her from other swordies. I invested in her when she first came out and then she got powercrept pretty soon after by Mia.

[Diovani Bressan]

50 minutes ago, Garlyle said:

It could be also Atk/Def Solo. Atk/Spd might be more appropriate, but I have a feeling Solo it still new to get Atk/Spd version, and Lon'qu is fast enough, so he might not need the Spd bonus.

Yes, you're right. Lon'qu is pretty fast, but his Def is low. A +6 Def would help him. I believe the solo skill effect will be the weapon refinement, not the base effect.