General Weapon Refinery discussion/speculation/creation thread

[Fabulously Olivier]

While I'm disappointed that none of my big 3 for weapon refines (Robin, Hawkeye, and Lukas) are getting them this month, I'm excited to see Innes get his. He is my favorite FE archer and he does need it.

[Diovani Bressan]

About Tana's Vidofnir and Innes's Nidhogg, I don't know what IS will do with them. Vidofnir grants Tana +7 Def is attacked by a foe using a physical melee weapon, while Nidhogg has a Owl Effect. Maybe Vidofnir effect can evolve to +7 Def when a enemy starts the combat, for all weapons types. I believe Innes will keep the Owl effect. In Sacred Stones, Nidhogg grants +5 Luck. Maybe it can receive the "Accelerate Special trigger" effect, but I will say the legendary bow will keep the base effect without changes.

For the special refinement, maybe Nidhogg can have something to debuff enemy's Def, like Chill Def, or something to boost his stats in copmbat, like a Bond effect.

Edited October 1, 2018 by Diovani Bressan

[Fabulously Olivier]

21 minutes ago, Diovani Bressan said:

About Tana's Vidofnir and Innes's Nidhogg, I don't know what IS will do with them. Vidofnir grants Tana +7 Def is attacked by a foe using a physical melee weapon, while Nidhogg has a Owl Effect. Maybe Vidofnir effect can evolve to +7 Def when a enemy starts the combat, for all weapons types. I believe Innes will keep the Owl effect. In Sacred Stones, Nidhogg grants +5 Luck. Maybe it can receive the "Accelerate Special trigger" effect, but I will say the legendary bow will keep the base effect without changes.

For the special refinement, maybe Nidhogg can have something to debuff enemy's Def, like Chill Def, or something to boost his stats in copmbat, like a Bond effect.

Innes' role is that of a primarily enemy-phase anti-mage archer. His refinement is likely to add a tool to help increase his magical bulk on enemy phase. I would expect Distant Def, Dull Ranged, Mirror Stance, Warding Stance, Attack/Res Bond, Spd/Res Bond, or Warding Breath. 

Edited October 1, 2018 by Etheus

[Diovani Bressan]

3 minutes ago, Etheus said:

Innes' roll is that of a primarily enemy-phase anti-mage archer. His refinement is likely to add a tool to help increase his magical bulk on enemy phase. I would expect Distant Def, Dull Ranged, Mirror Stance, Warding Stance, Attack/Res Bond, Spd/Res Bond, or Warding Breath. 

I agree with you. Dull Ranged would help him against blade tome users, and a enemy phase Res boost skill is also a good pick. I would say a Bond skill, to work with his Owl Bow. Warding Breath would be amazing, but I don't see this happening.

I believe we will have the version 2.10 between October 8th, which is when starts the three heroes quests, and October 10th, which is when starts the next Special Heroes Banner.

[Fabulously Olivier]

8 minutes ago, Diovani Bressan said:

I agree with you. Dull Ranged would help him against blade tome users, and a enemy phase Res boost skill is also a good pick. I would say a Bond skill, to work with his Owl Bow. Warding Breath would be amazing, but I don't see this happening.

I believe we will have the version 2.10 between October 8th, which is when starts the three heroes quests, and October 10th, which is when starts the next Special Heroes Banner.

Dull Ranged would also be my choice. That way he won't have to choose between it and his innate Cancel Affinity. 

Warding Breath was highly optimistic on my part. It's a possibility, but I consider it to be unlikely to happen for the same reason that Distant Counter/Close Counter and Wrath haven't been given to refines yet.

[Diovani Bressan]

14 minutes ago, Etheus said:

Dull Ranged would also be my choice. That way he won't have to choose between it and his innate Cancel Affinity.

Dull skills are very useful. I hope we can get Dull Ranged/Close in seal form someday...

[bottlegnomes]

@Jotari I was referring to how it would appear to a new player (Fury has a detriment to offset the seemingly conglomerate effect while Urvan doesn't), not necessarily what the devs intended, since they may have decided to tone down deflects after Urvan was released. Probably should have clarified that.

@Diovani Bressan A built-in guard effect, maybe guard 5, would be a good homage to the luck and be a fairly good skill for him, making it harder for mages to break through his res. By itself it might be a bit underwhelming, but it'd be a nice nod.

@Etheus It seems like it might be a little more likely. Part of their DC aversion seems to be due to 1) existing DC weapons and the perceived strength of the skill and 2) that it isn't stackable, rendering any inheritance pointless. Stance and breath skills are at least stackable, sans cooldown boost, but Innes can't inherit breath skills, so that part is moot. Warding stance isn't anymore powerful than the Guard bow for all intents and purposes, since dragons will target def anyway, so that definitely seems within reason as a sole effect. Seems like it just comes down to whether they perceive the added cooldown boost to be powerful enough to not give a ranged unit since they feel that way about the skill itself.

[Diovani Bressan]

3 minutes ago, bottlegnomes said:

A built-in guard effect, maybe guard 5, would be a good homage to the luck and be a fairly good skill for him, making it harder for mages to break through his res. By itself it might be a bit underwhelming, but it'd be a nice nod.

"If unit's HP is ≥ 50% at start of combat, enemy is inflicted with Special cooldown charge-1. (If using similar skill, only highest value applied.)"

It's a interesting effect to have in a ranged weapon.

[Fabulously Olivier]

8 minutes ago, Diovani Bressan said:

"If unit's HP is ≥ 50% at start of combat, enemy is inflicted with Special cooldown charge-1. (If using similar skill, only highest value applied.)"

It's a interesting effect to have in a ranged weapon.

I hadn't even considered Guard. It could work. Problem is, Innes does tend to use Fury to round out his stats, and he has a low hp pool to begin with. Guard would help with first combat, but not so much against multi-mage teams.

[redlight]

Quite curious about Tana's refine. Will people actually use it? She's doing incredibly well with what people give. Firesweep, slaying, etc.

[Titamon]

16 hours ago, Ice Dragon said:

"Free effect" is a one-way relation. Effective damage (and other free effects) don't count towards a weapon's two effects, but that doesn't mean weapons just get free effects willy nilly.

In particular, Elibe's legendary weapons (the eight that don't include the Binding Blade) don't receive dragon effectiveness, which was likely a decision made before the game's launch to prevent dragon effectiveness from becoming too common, basically limiting it to the weapons more uniquely identified as designed to defeat dragons.

So what about characters like Caeda and Clair who only have effective damage on their weapons and the unique refine?

[JSND Alter Dragon Boner]

19 minutes ago, Titamon said:

So what about characters like Caeda and Clair who only have effective damage on their weapons and the unique refine?

You can kinda consider weakness effect to be 0.5 towards the 2 points a weapon can get as an effect with high upper cap of 2.5 provided the weapon had Weakness + Effect -> Effect 2 pattern

So for Caeda and Clair

 

Armor + Horse Effectiveness - a pair of 0.5 effects - 1 effect point

Flashing Blade - 1 effect point

total - 2

 

Whereas Nephenee - Killer effect 1 point. Effectiveness effect 0.5 point

Steady Posture - 1 point

Total - 2.5 point

 

 

Yeah its not a very consistent system the way they execute it but what can you expect from the same design team who literally made Killer Weapon effect - one of the single most overpowered effect in the entirety of FEH, worth the same as fucking Res+3

 

Honestly Caeda and Clair's weapon is stupidly overpowered with the way it stands - because what it entails to is it murders half the game, and interestingly their stats semi-adds Dragon on that list. What is a product of terrible scoring system ironically created one of the better working designs in the game

Edited October 1, 2018 by JSND Alter Dragon Boner

[Ice Dragon]

1 hour ago, Titamon said:

So what about characters like Caeda and Clair who only have effective damage on their weapons and the unique refine?

They simply have zero non-free effects on their base weapon and one after refine. That's less than two and therefore okay.

 

1 hour ago, JSND Alter Dragon Boner said:

You can kinda consider weakness effect to be 0.5 towards the 2 points a weapon can get as an effect with high upper cap of 2.5 provided the weapon had Weakness + Effect -> Effect 2 pattern

Not quite. Thani has armor effectiveness, cavalry effectiveness, Res +3, and 30% damage reduction from the first attack from a ranged armor or cavalry opponent.

[Titamon]

3 hours ago, Ice Dragon said:

They simply have zero non-free effects on their base weapon and one after refine. That's less than two and therefore okay.

This weapon ability system doesn't really seem fair at all.

[colossus86]

 

3 hours ago, Ice Dragon said:

They simply have zero non-free effects on their base weapon and one after refine. That's less than two and therefore okay.

 

Not quite. Thani has armor effectiveness, cavalry effectiveness, Res +3, and 30% damage reduction from the first attack from a ranged armor or cavalry opponent.

Thani is one of the most baffling weapons in the entire game. No matter how you look at it, it seems to have an extra effect. My only theory, and this is me reaching, is that Thani was released before wing sword, and after seeing Thani in live action they made the decision to only give one efdective damage for free.

And this just goes to show as much fun as speculating can be, ultimately IS can and will do whatever they want and they clearly don't feel the need to justify it to us.

[colossus86]

Speaking of baffling weapons, can we talk about Gae Bolg?

So it's pretty clear that the weapon only has one effect and not an absurd one at that. +5 Atk/Def in combat is an effect given by a bond skill on a unit we all got for free. The difference is that of "coverage".

By coverage i mean the vague% of situations where you can actually benefit from an effect. Take Atk +3 for example, it has perfect coverage in the sense that in any circumstance where your atk stat is used, you benefit from it's effect. This is in contrast with Death Blow 3, which provides double the effect but only in combat, and only on player phase. Fierce stance is the same thing but enemy phase. Fire boost works duel phase but requires an hp check at the start of combat. So for a stronger effect requires less coverage to remain balanced, that's why spurs give more stats than drives.

So the question with Gae Bolg is does it's immense coverage justify the lack of 2nd effect on the weapon. Keep in mind:

It works on every non flier which I'm guessing is like 75% of the cast

It works duel phase unlike blows/stances

It doesn't have an hp check or threshold like boosts or Guard

It doesn't require specific positioning like bonds or solo skills

It doesn't compare his stats to his opponents like heavy blade

It doesn't depend on his opponents statline like light brand

It doesn't depend on his opponents weapon type like close/distant def

So the question presented is: does all of that coverage for what's ultimately a solid but unspectacular effect worth the absence of any 2nd effect? I have no idea since i don't have a Quan nor have a fought many but im curious what people think.

 

 

 

[Ice Dragon]

48 minutes ago, Titamon said:

This weapon ability system doesn't really seem fair at all.

This isn't a competitive RTS or MOBA that needs to be made to be fair.

And Wing Sword and Rhomphaia have no claim to unfairness when they have three skill effects (free skill effects are still skill effects) compared to Fujin Yumi and Noatun, which only have two skill effects each with all of them being mobility skills.

[colossus86]

12 minutes ago, Ice Dragon said:

This isn't a competitive RTS or MOBA that needs to be made to be fair.

And Wing Sword and Rhomphaia have no claim to unfairness when they have three skill effects (free skill effects are still skill effects) compared to Fujin Yumi and Noatun, which only have two skill effects each with all of them being mobility skills.

You also have to remember that you can't separate a weapon from who's actually allowed to use it. Clair and Caeda have awful attack stats and in circumstances where they have no effective damage or special activation they really struggle to kill even squishy units.

Weapon refines are meant to bring some semblance of balance to unbalanced statlines so naturally they're not all going to be perfectly in line with one another.

Edited October 1, 2018 by colossus86

[Ice Dragon]

5 minutes ago, colossus86 said:

You also have to remember that you can't separate a weapon from who's actually allowed to use it. Clair and Caeda have awful attack stats and in circumstances where they have no effective damage or special activation they really struggle to kill even squishy units.

In other words, Wing Sword and Rhomphaia are very helpful to Caeda and Clair. Contrast to Fujin Yumi and Noatun doing pretty much nothing for Takumi and Anna.

As an additional reminder, Anna has an almost identical stat spread as Caeda and Clair, owing to the fact that she doesn't have a +Atk nature available to her, and has no access to merges.

[Kaden]

7 hours ago, silveraura25 said:

Quite curious about Tana's refine. Will people actually use it? She's doing incredibly well with what people give. Firesweep, slaying, etc.

It's another option in her toolbox. Depending on the situation, you might want it over Berkut's Lance, Firesweep Lance, Harmonic Lance, Slaying Lance, Slaying Spear, etc. I could see it being really helpful for someone trying to do Tana true solos since she can't always use it or another weapon for every map.

I'd laugh if Vidofnir's unique refine is "If foe uses axe, bow, dagger, lance, or sword, reduces foe's first attack by 50%." Imagine that combined with, say, Vidofnir's upgraded effect being Def+7 when attacked. Overkill defense, I guess.

[colossus86]

9 minutes ago, Ice Dragon said:

In other words, Wing Sword and Rhomphaia are very helpful to Caeda and Clair. Contrast to Fujin Yumi and Noatun doing pretty much nothing for Takumi and Anna.

As an additional reminder, Anna has an almost identical stat spread as Caeda and Clair, owing to the fact that she doesn't have a +Atk nature available to her, and has no access to merges.

Well in Takumi's case maybe you could argue that he was considered a good to decent unit back in the day so they didn't want to go crazy with his weapon, maybe?

As for Anna while i do like her weapon from a thematic/character standpoint, i do think it's absolutely awful what they did with her especially in the context that the only reason most players will ever use Anna is as an emergency arena bonus unit.

Edited October 1, 2018 by colossus86

[XRay]

Nóatún does feel quite lackluster. I wish they would have just removed the HP requirement completely so she can freely teleport anywhere. The special Refine can be super Guidance or something that can let any ally within 2 spaces to warp to her.

Edited October 1, 2018 by XRay

[bottlegnomes]

1 hour ago, colossus86 said:

Speaking of baffling weapons, can we talk about Gae Bolg?

So it's pretty clear that the weapon only has one effect and not an absurd one at that. +5 Atk/Def in combat is an effect given by a bond skill on a unit we all got for free. The difference is that of "coverage".

By coverage i mean the vague% of situations where you can actually benefit from an effect. Take Atk +3 for example, it has perfect coverage in the sense that in any circumstance where your atk stat is used, you benefit from it's effect. This is in contrast with Death Blow 3, which provides double the effect but only in combat, and only on player phase. Fierce stance is the same thing but enemy phase. Fire boost works duel phase but requires an hp check at the start of combat. So for a stronger effect requires less coverage to remain balanced, that's why spurs give more stats than drives.

So the question with Gae Bolg is does it's immense coverage justify the lack of 2nd effect on the weapon. Keep in mind:

It works on every non flier which I'm guessing is like 75% of the cast

It works duel phase unlike blows/stances

It doesn't have an hp check or threshold like boosts or Guard

It doesn't require specific positioning like bonds or solo skills

It doesn't compare his stats to his opponents like heavy blade

It doesn't depend on his opponents statline like light brand

It doesn't depend on his opponents weapon type like close/distant def

So the question presented is: does all of that coverage for what's ultimately a solid but unspectacular effect worth the absence of any 2nd effect? I have no idea since i don't have a Quan nor have a fought many but im curious what people think.

I'm going to go with a hard eh. Quan doesn't really have enough going for him to make it amazing. He doesn't have the speed to be a reliable PP unit, and he can hit fairly hard, but I'm not sure hard enough to really be a reliable OHKOer. He caps at an absolute max of 69 attack sans ally buffs with an attack boon, DB4, and Gae Bolg's effect active. For comparison, Ayra with just wrath and neutral attack hits 73 damage. On top of that, he's a cav, meaning he loses out on basically every cooldown speed-up skill. He can run HB in the seal slot, but that doesn't really do much to help him since he's not doubling anyway, so he gets the benefit basically every other round. 

On EP, he's a bit slow meaning he's in danger of doubles, and his bulk is good, but not so amazing that he can tank forever. For comparison, he has one more point of defense with Gae Bolg than Shiro has pre-Bright Naginata. And let's not even mention Lukas, Frederick, or Silas. I know both the lot of them and Ayra are probably top tier examples of those types of units, but they're examples of units that can run those types of sets effectively, and I guess my point is that Quan at best barely matches up against them with Gae Bolg in effect.

It's a good weapon, and I think their thinking behind it was attack +3 + defense +3 + atk/def +2 - flier coverage = 2 skills with the flier coverage negating one of the other effects. Quan feels a bit lacking and I'm not sure the coverage justifies it only having what effect it does. He's a fairly solid unit, but I honestly feel like he might just be better off running a Slaying Lance, Reprisal Lance, or Brave Lance depending on what build you end up going for. It might serve someone else, like Effie, Catria, weird as that may be, Lukas, or even Silas. Though all of them probably have other things they'd rather run. Effie, Berkut's Lance so she can shut down mages, Lukas and Silas Reprisal Lance since they'd probably still be EP-oriented, and Catria any of those, depending on how you want to build her.

Edited October 1, 2018 by bottlegnomes

[Ice Dragon]

I was thinking about Vidofnir for a bit, and right now I'm expecting the base effect to be upgraded to Steady Stance 3.5 (+7 Def on enemy phase) and its refine effect to either be Slaying weapon (or Wo Dao) or Iote's Shield (maybe even with the Fili Shield icon instead).

That said, enemy-phase flier builds feel rather awkward.

[MegaBlaziken721]

Extremely late response, but from what attention I've paid I've noticed the following:

Every weapon has a maximum of two effects (including any special refine effects for exclusive weapons), however there are some "free effects" that do not count towards this total, which include:

• Effective damage
• Detrimental effects (Brave weapons' Spd penalty, out-of-combat damage, Loptous granting dragon weakness, etc.)
• Effects specific to and/or typical of a certain weapon type (dagger debuffs, adaptive breath)

All other skill effects count towards the maximum of two. 

Is this at least somewhat correct?