General Weapon Refinery discussion/speculation/creation thread

[colossus86]

6 minutes ago, MegaBlaziken721 said:

Extremely late response, but from what attention I've paid I've noticed the following:

Every weapon has a maximum of two effects (including any special refine effects for exclusive weapons), however there are some "free effects" that do not count towards this total, which include:

• Effective damage
• Detrimental effects (Brave weapons' Spd penalty, out-of-combat damage, Loptous granting dragon weakness, etc.)
• Effects specific to and/or typical of a certain weapon type (dagger debuffs, adaptive breath)

All other skill effects count towards the maximum of two. 

Is this at least somewhat correct?

Other than a couple of oddities like Thani and Gae Bolg, yes

[Ice Dragon]

26 minutes ago, MegaBlaziken721 said:

Extremely late response, but from what attention I've paid I've noticed the following:

Every weapon has a maximum of two effects (including any special refine effects for exclusive weapons), however there are some "free effects" that do not count towards this total, which include:

• Effective damage
• Detrimental effects (Brave weapons' Spd penalty, out-of-combat damage, Loptous granting dragon weakness, etc.)
• Effects specific to and/or typical of a certain weapon type (dagger debuffs, adaptive breath)

All other skill effects count towards the maximum of two. 

Is this at least somewhat correct?

Detrimental effects are considered part of the beneficial effect they are attached to. Fury is a single effect comprising of all five of its separate parts, for example. Wrath is also considered a single effect despite the two parts being entirely separate from each other (with only the HP threshold being shared).

Other than that, that's accurate.

 

19 minutes ago, colossus86 said:

Other than a couple of oddities like Thani and Gae Bolg, yes

Neither of them are oddities, though. Thani has two effects plus two instances of effective damage that don't count towards the maximum.

Gae Bolg has effectively one effect (Atk/Def Bond 3 with the positioning restriction swapped for an enemy movement type restriction), which is not more than two.

If anything, the odd one out is Cursed Lance, which is a Gen 1 weapon (therefore supposed to only have one effect) that has maybe one, maybe one and a half effects depending on how you count it.

[MegaBlaziken721]

@Ice Dragon Alright, I think I finally understand now (Took me long enough, I know). Thanks for clearing all of that up.

Note to self: Trying to translate Fates personal skills into Heroes does not end well.

[colossus86]

35 minutes ago, MegaBlaziken721 said:

@Ice Dragon Alright, I think I finally understand now (Took me long enough, I know). Thanks for clearing all of that up.

Note to self: Trying to translate Fates personal skills into Heroes does not end well.

Yeah due to pair up not existing and supports being fundamentally different alot of them really don't work out. Hopefully they'll do something for poor laslow since he might literally be the worst sword infantry in the game

[Ice Dragon]

24 minutes ago, colossus86 said:

Hopefully they'll do something for poor laslow since he might literally be the worst sword infantry in the game

That award goes to Tobin, who not only has stats that are way too balanced to excel at anything, but also has extremely limited merge potential at a current maximum of +2.

[Kaden]

4 hours ago, colossus86 said:

Hopefully they'll do something for poor laslow since he might literally be the worst sword infantry in the game

He has high attack, good physical bulk, comes with Axebreaker 3 as a 4*, and has Hone Spd 2 as 4* for support. Throw him an Armorslayer/smasher or Ruby Sword and you have a cheap anti-axe armor or anti-axe unit. Same goes with Tobin if you throw him Axebreaker 3 from Laslow.

Part of me feels like Navarre might be in a worse position than Laslow or Tobin where while he has a better offensive spread than the two and more merges than Tobin, he has to compete with a lot of speedy and sometimes high attack sword infantries who have access to boons and banes, more merges than him, and sometimes personal weapons of which Lon'qu's about to get one soon.

[JSND Alter Dragon Boner]

2 hours ago, Kaden said:

He has high attack, good physical bulk, comes with Axebreaker 3 as a 4*, and has Hone Spd 2 as 4* for support. Throw him an Armorslayer/smasher or Ruby Sword and you have a cheap anti-axe armor or anti-axe unit. Same goes with Tobin if you throw him Axebreaker 3 from Laslow.

Part of me feels like Navarre might be in a worse position than Laslow or Tobin where while he has a better offensive spread than the two and more merges than Tobin, he has to compete with a lot of speedy and sometimes high attack sword infantries who have access to boons and banes, more merges than him, and sometimes personal weapons of which Lon'qu's about to get one soon.

I kinda feel Navarre is underrated as a build ins simply because he's one of few lucky dudes who have Killer Sword as their weapon so they starts with the best weapon possible and contributes 100 sacred dew hue

 

 

But thats less him being good and more Killer Weapons are stupid

[Ice Dragon]

2 hours ago, Kaden said:

Part of me feels like Navarre might be in a worse position than Laslow or Tobin where while he has a better offensive spread than the two and more merges than Tobin, he has to compete with a lot of speedy and sometimes high attack sword infantries who have access to boons and banes, more merges than him, and sometimes personal weapons of which Lon'qu's about to get one soon.

And then you realize that Tobin has the same base Atk stat as Navarre.

[colossus86]

@Ice Dragon @Kaden

I meant to say "in the permanent pool" i just feel like theres so little point in using Laslow when Chrom and Ogma are sitting right there in 3-4 star

[Kaden]

14 hours ago, Ice Dragon said:

And then you realize that Tobin has the same base Atk stat as Navarre.

I didn't say Navarre was worse than either of them. I said that he's in a rougher spot than them because he has to compete with more units who do the same or similar things as him where when you have so many other options than Navarre, it might be harder to justify using him over the others.

Laslow and Tobin have less competition as slow, bulky sword infantries, but that doesn't mean they're better or worse than Navarre. It's just that in the even you needed to use more than Alfonse, Chrom, Hinata, and Seliph for some weird reason and couldn't use the other sword infantries, then Laslow and Tobin would be your remaining options compared to Navarre out of Athena, Ayra, CYL Celica, Karla, Lon'qu, Lyn, legendary Marth, Mia and slightly slower, Hana, Joshua, Karel, Lloyd, Lucina, Marisa, masked Marth, Ryoma, and Soleil, or much slower, Ogma, or with much lower base attack if =Atk, Fir and Selena. Most of them are 5*-only summons, but even if you exclude them, you'd still have plenty of more options than with your slow, bulky sword infantries.

I think I'm not good at what I'm trying to say with this.

[Ice Dragon]

3 minutes ago, Kaden said:

I didn't say Navarre was worse than either of them. I said that he's in a rougher spot than them because he has to compete with more units who do the same or similar things as him where when you have so many other options than Navarre, it might be harder to justify using him over the others.

I personally don't think needing to compete with more other characters is a worse situation. How well you perform your role doesn't change whether there are zero other characters that can take the same role or if there are a hundred other characters. If you removed every other fast sword infantry from the game (or more accurately, if you removed all of them from the player's side, but not the opponent's side), Navarre would be just as bad as he is right now despite having zero competition.

I could be wrong since I only have myself as a data point, but I think players looking to build characters typically think more along the lines of "I want a good red unit to add to my roster" and not "I want a good fast sword infantry unit to add to my roster". In other words, Navarre and Tobin's real competition is every other red unit in the game, not just sword users with similar stat distributions.

[Kaden]

11 minutes ago, Ice Dragon said:

I personally don't think needing to compete with more other characters is a worse situation. How well you perform your role doesn't change whether there are zero other characters that can take the same role or if there are a hundred other characters. If you removed every other fast sword infantry from the game (or more accurately, if you removed all of them from the player's side, but not the opponent's side), Navarre would be just as bad as he is right now despite having zero competition.

I could be wrong since I only have myself as a data point, but I think players looking to build characters typically think more along the lines of "I want a good red unit to add to my roster" and not "I want a good fast sword infantry unit to add to my roster". In other words, Navarre and Tobin's real competition is every other red unit in the game, not just sword users with similar stat distributions.

Yeah, it depends on the perspective. In this case, I just feel like Navarre has a harder time standing out. That doesn't mean he can't do well at his job regardless who else can do it and how well they do it. That's just me preferring to build upon the strengths of a unit or in a way to give them a niche regardless of how insignificant it ends up being.

[Fabulously Olivier]

Saizo

Flame Shuriken - 14 MT

Smoke dagger debuffs

Weapon color changes to red.

Accelerates special trigger (cooldown count -1).

Refine - Deal +10 damage on special trigger.

 

Kaze

Glacial Shuriken - 14 MT

Rogue Dagger buffs & debuffs

Weapon color changes to blue.

If unit's res > foe's res, gain +1 special charge per attack.

Refine - If unit is within 2 spaces of support partner, grants unit and support partner Atk/Spd/Def/Res +2 during combat.

 

Kagero

Typhoon Shuriken - 14 MT

Silver dagger debuffs

Weapon color changes to green.

Flashing Blade 3.

Refine - Swift Sparrow 2.

Edited October 4, 2018 by Etheus

[Hilda]

54 minutes ago, Etheus said:

Saizo

Flame Shuriken - 14 MT

Smoke dagger debuffs

Weapon color changes to red.

Accelerates special trigger (cooldown count -1).

Refine - Deal +10 damage on special trigger.

 

Kaze

Glacial Shuriken - 14 MT

Rogue Dagger buffs & debuffs

Weapon color changes to blue.

If unit's res > foe's res, gain +1 special charge per attack.

Refine - If unit is within 2 spaces of support partner, grants unit and support partner Atk/Spd/Def/Res +2 during combat.

 

Kagero

Typhoon Shuriken - 14 MT

Silver dagger debuffs

Weapon color changes to green.

Flashing Blade 3.

Refine - Swift Sparrow 2.

I'd like for those units to stay colorless... so nope

[Kruggov]

Actually let me try that...

Saizo: Flame Shuriken - 14 MT - After unit initiates combat, unit and all enemies within 2 spaces of unit take 10 damage.

Refine: Poison Strike 3.

Basically simulates Saizo's personal from Fates. Allows him to act as a huge out-of-combat damage dealer, similarly to Pain. Notably the weapon's effect is centered on Saizo himself, and not the enemy.

Possibly still not as good as Pain Razzle-Dazzle

[Kaden]

25 minutes ago, Kruggov said:

Actually let me try that...

Saizo: Flame Shuriken - 14 MT - After unit initiates combat, unit and all enemies within 2 spaces of unit take 10 damage.

Refine: Poison Strike 3.

Basically simulates Saizo's personal from Fates. Allows him to act as a huge out-of-combat damage dealer, similarly to Pain. Notably the weapon's effect is centered on Saizo himself, and not the enemy.

Possibly still not as good as Pain Razzle-Dazzle

You just gave him a variant of Jaffar's unrefined Deathly Dagger where its unique refinement is Poison Strike 3 instead of mages cannot counterattack. I say unrefined because when refined, Deathly Dagger only requires that Jaffar attacks to inflict 10 damage to his foe and foes within 2 spaces meaning he doesn't need to initiate combat to get its effect. Also, you left out every dagger being able to debuff Def/Res-7 if they don't debuff additional stats or buff them like Peshkatz, Rogue Dagger+, and Smoke Dagger+. Daggers have Def/Res-7 debuffing as a free effect like how bows have effective damage against fliers or how dragonstones have adaptive damage against ranged units.

The damage to himself is extreme when you consider Fury 3 inflicts 6 recoil damage, Celica's Ragnarok's Atk/Spd+5 only inflict 5 recoil damage, and Valter's Cursed Lance's partial Fury, Atk/Spd+2, inflicting 4 recoil damage. Saizo would be taking as much damage as Eldigan with double Fury 3 through unique refined Mystletainn and Celica with Fury 3 and refined Ragnarok; 12 and 11 recoil damage, respectively. The after combat damage range would also be kind of crappy since he's a ranged unit, so he's likely not going to be that close to enemies without Close Counter and at that point, he's going to be bleeding out hard without any stat boosts unlike to cover his defenses or even offenses.

The other thing is that Flame Shuriken is a magic damage weapon in Fates, so there's that. Giving him Saizo's Star would make more sense if you aren't going to give him "calculates damage using the lower of foe's Def or Res" like Felicia's Plate, Light Brand and Shining Bow's effect, or a dragonstone's adaptive damage against ranged units. Giving him Saizo's Star would also give him a variant of Peshkatz since it buffs strength in Fates: http://fireemblem.wikia.com/wiki/Saizo's_Star.

Edited October 4, 2018 by Kaden

[Kruggov]

1 minute ago, Kaden said:

You just gave him a variant of Jaffar's unrefined Deathly Dagger where its unique refinement is Poison Strike 3 instead of mages cannot counterattack. I say unrefined because when refined, Deathly Dagger only requires the Jaffar attacks to inflict 10 damage to his foe and foes within 2 spaces. Also, you left out every dagger being able to debuff Def/Res-7 if they don't debuff additional stats or buff them like Peshkatz, Rogue Dagger+, and Smoke Dagger+.

The damage to himself is extreme when you consider Fury 3 inflicts 6 recoil damage, Celica's Ragnarok's Atk/Spd+5 only inflict 5 recoil damage, and Valter's Cursed Lance's partial Fury, Atk/Spd+2, inflicting 4 recoil damage. Saizo would be taking as much damage as Eldigan with double Fury 3 through unique refined Mystletainn and Celica with Fury 3 and refined Ragnarok; 12 and 11 recoil damage, respectively. The after combat damage range would also be kind of crappy since he's a ranged unit, so he's likely not going to be that close to enemies without Close Counter and at that point, he's going to be bleeding out hard without any stat boosts unlike to cover his defenses or even offenses.

The other thing is that Flame Shuriken is a magic damage weapon in Fates, so there's that. Giving him Saizo's Star would make more sense if you aren't going to give him "calculates damage using the lower of foe's Def or Res" like Felicia's Plate, Light Brand and Shining Bow's effect, or a dragonstone's adaptive damage against ranged units. Giving him Saizo's Star would also give him a variant of Peshkatz since it buffs strength in Fates: http://fireemblem.wikia.com/wiki/Saizo's_Star.

Yeah I probably made it bad. To be honest, I didn't think much before writing. Mb that's why I forgot the debuffs. Let's try again:

Saizo's Star - 14 MT - After combat, inflicts Atk/Def/Res-7 of target and all enemies within 2 spaces of target. Grants unit and all allies within 2 spaces of unit Atk+7.

Bigger (de)buffs, compared to Peshkats, but no spd debuff, and only buffs are to Atk. Also, Atk +7 might be a bit high, since the the highest buffs yet are +6,

[Fabulously Olivier]

1 hour ago, Hilda said:

I'd like for those units to stay colorless... so nope

 

How about these modifications, which will keep them as colorless but essentially make them the reverse of Raven tomes for one color. As this is a strong effect, I'm taking out one of the other previous effects per weapon and making that the base effect for each. 

 

Saizo

Flame Shuriken - 14 MT - Colorless

Smoke dagger debuffs

Grants weapon triangle advantage against Green foes. (If Green foe has weapon triangle advantage against colorless foes, cancel advantages for unit and foe). 

Refine - Accelerates special trigger (cooldown count -1).

 

Kaze

Glacial Shuriken - 14 MT - Colorless

Rogue Dagger buffs & debuffs

Grants weapon triangle advantage against Red foes. (If Red foe has weapon triangle advantage against colorless foes, cancel advantages for unit and foe).

Refine - If unit is within 2 spaces of support partner, grants unit and support partner Atk/Spd/Def/Res +2 during combat.

 

Kagero

Typhoon Shuriken - 14 MT - Colorless

Silver dagger debuffs

Grants weapon triangle advantage against Blue foes. (If Blue foe has weapon triangle advantage against colorless foes, cancel advantages for unit and foe). 

Refine - Swift Sparrow 2.

Edited October 4, 2018 by Etheus

[Kaden]

2 hours ago, Kruggov said:

Yeah I probably made it bad. To be honest, I didn't think much before writing. Mb that's why I forgot the debuffs. Let's try again:

Saizo's Star - 14 MT - After combat, inflicts Atk/Def/Res-7 of target and all enemies within 2 spaces of target. Grants unit and all allies within 2 spaces of unit Atk+7.

Bigger (de)buffs, compared to Peshkats, but no spd debuff, and only buffs are to Atk. Also, Atk +7 might be a bit high, since the the highest buffs yet are +6,

You're missing the syntax that Heroes uses. In your case, Saizo's Star would be able to debuff regardless of if Saizo attacks or not which could be pretty powerful considering you could just have him be a wall against physical units. The attack buff isn't connected to anything. By that, where is it coming from like is it being granted at the start of a turn, in combat, or I would assume this is what you're going for, after combat. Descriptions of effects need to be specific while also being easy to understand. Since we already have those descriptions available to us, we can simply just copy them and adjust them if needed. For instance, your idea for Saizo's Star would look like this if I'm understanding your intentions for it correctly: "After combat, if unit attacked, inflicts Atk/Def/Res-7 on target and foes within 2 spaces of target through their next actions, and grants Atk+7 to unit and allies within 2 spaces for 1 turn."

3 hours ago, Kruggov said:

Bigger (de)buffs, compared to Peshkats, but no spd debuff, and only buffs are to Atk.

Your idea for Saizo's Star debuffs a total of -21 divided into three stats to Peshkatz's -16 divided into four. It has lower total buffs, only +7 to one stat compared to Peshkatz's +16 divided into four stats. The debuff totals are lower than refined Smoke Dagger+'s Atk/Spd/Def/Res-6, -24, but that's all Smoke Dagger+ does. It only debuffs, but for four different stats instead of debuffing and buffing two or more stats. Saizo's Star would have the Def/Res-7 debuff most daggers have as their base effect, but also Atk-7 and Atk+7. Peshkatz debuffs and buffs all four stats and Rogue Dagger+ debuffs and buffs two stats, defense and resistance by 6. The stats being debuffed or buffed are lower than the base effect of most daggers. What I'm saying is that you'd want to balance it. Atk/Def/Res-7 and Atk+7 might not be that powerful or it might be. That said, my suggestion is that considering debuffing speed can be huge as it prevents follow-ups and enables follow-ups, this might work better:  "After combat, if unit attacked, inflicts Def/Res-6 on target and foes within 2 spaces of target through their next actions, and grants Atk/Spd+6 to unit and allies within 2 spaces for 1 turn."

It's basically refined Rogue Dagger+'s effect, but with second effect buffing offensive stats rather than defensive ones. Refined Rogue Dagger+'s effects being this: "After combat, if unit attacked, inflicts Def/Res-6 on target and foes within 2 spaces of target through their next actions, and grants Def/Res+6 to unit and allies within 2 spaces for 1 turn."

That leaves one thing, however, and that is the unique refined effect. Most new personal weapons have two effects, ignoring free effects which you can search in this topic since it's been discussed several times, to which I'm not exactly sure if this would be considered two as Peshkatz debuffs and buffs and that's it. It doesn't have anything else like how Jaffar's Deathly Dagger has 10 after combat damage and a dagger's free Def/Res-7 debuff provided it doesn't debuff or buff anything else as its base effects and preventing mages from countering as its unique refinement effect. Or Felicia's Plate targeting the lower defensive stat and a dagger's free Def/Res-7 debuff as its base effects and +1 special against mages as its unique effect.

If it is considered one effect which would mean Peshkatz should be given the ability to be refined, especially since CYL Veronica's Hliðskjálf has the same buff and debuff effects as Peshkatz, but also Dazzling Staff meaning she can safely attack anyone to apply those effects unlike Sothe who has to give up the ability to follow-up with Watersweep or Windsweep if he's trying to tag someone who can counter back. Anyway, with Saizo's Star, you could give its unique refine anything, but within reason, of course. I don't think giving it after combat damage would be fair, though, since it'd have the ability to buff and debuff and after combat damage for the cost of not be able to prevent mages from countering compared to unique refined Deathly Dagger.

With Saizo's high defense, this might be a fun, if broken idea for its unique refine: "If unit initiates combat and foe uses sword, lance, or axe, grants Def+20 during combat." That's part of Flora's Hoarfrost Knife's effects where it's supposed to give her defense so she can safely attack units with Distant Counter. More defense against physical units and evened defenses against dragons who have adaptive damage against ranged units. This would specifically target physical units with Distant Counter letting Saizo have 53 defense against them because why not. I guess you could also go with Def/Res+10 to Def/Res+14 instead so he'd get a more reasonable defense boost and he could have a bit more bulk against dragons if you added that in. His resistance is still very low, though, so there's that.

2 hours ago, Kruggov said:

Also, Atk +7 might be a bit high, since the the highest buffs yet are +6,

It is. The only skills that grant +7 to a stat as a field buff are the Defiant skills which requires the user be at <= 50% HP. It's cool, but in practicality and even before Panic Ploy was introduced, it was hard to use since the unit needs to be able to survive with half their health remaining. They're more or less relics of the past now as the developers introduced the Brazen skills and had Alfonse's Folkvangr's effect go from Defiant Atk 2 as its unrefined effect to Brazen Atk/Def 3. The Brazen line of skills grant +7 to two stats when the unit is at <= 80% HP, but as in combat buffs. Arguably more powerful and more practical, but it does have one drawback and it's that it doesn't add to the bonus of weapons like -blade tomes. Which is probably a good thing since that's +21 damage to a -blade mage and they would only need to be at <= 80% HP rather than <= 50%.

[Diovani Bressan]

12 hours ago, Etheus said:

Kaze

Glacial Shuriken - 14 MT - Colorless

Rogue Dagger buffs & debuffs

Grants weapon triangle advantage against Red foes. (If Red foe has weapon triangle advantage against colorless foes, cancel advantages for unit and foe).

Refine - If unit is within 2 spaces of support partner, grants unit and support partner Atk/Spd/Def/Res +2 during combat.

I am not sure about Kaze losing the "Accelerates special trigger" effect from his Barb Shuriken, but the refine effect is interesting. +2 to all stats to both units is  good, because it's will become +3 or +4, depending of the placement of both units. If Kaze supports Male Corrin, and Corrin has the refined effect in his Yato, Kaze would have +8 in all stats when adjacent to Corrin. However, this effect would not work in defensive arena teams.

"Grants weapon triangle advantage against Red foes" is a interesting concept. We don't have a weapon effective against a color type. I don't see this happening, but it's a cool idea.

[RexBolt]

12 minutes ago, Diovani Bressan said:

 

"Grants weapon triangle advantage against Red foes" is a interesting concept. We don't have a weapon effective against a color type. I don't see this happening, but it's a cool idea.

Well we have the Raven Tomes.

[Diovani Bressan]

7 minutes ago, RexBolt said:

Well we have the Raven Tomes.

Oh, I forgot about them. Maybe because it's rare for me to use a Raven Tome.

[Fabulously Olivier]

1 hour ago, Diovani Bressan said:

I am not sure about Kaze losing the "Accelerates special trigger" effect from his Barb Shuriken, but the refine effect is interesting. +2 to all stats to both units is  good, because it's will become +3 or +4, depending of the placement of both units. If Kaze supports Male Corrin, and Corrin has the refined effect in his Yato, Kaze would have +8 in all stats when adjacent to Corrin. However, this effect would not work in defensive arena teams.

"Grants weapon triangle advantage against Red foes" is a interesting concept. We don't have a weapon effective against a color type. I don't see this happening, but it's a cool idea.

I chose the support effect specifically in reference to Kaze's story role and his support-oriented passive in Fates. Also to contrast him against his more offensively-oriented brother.

[Kaden]

For some reason, I thought giving Spectrum effects to Shiro and Siegbert as their unique refinements would be a good if unique idea.

Bright Naginata: 16 Mt. Base effect: "If foe initiates combat, grants Atk/Def+4 during combat" (Sturdy Stance 2). Unique refinement: "If foe initiates combat, grants Atk/Spd/Def/Res+4 during combat" (Spectrum Stance 2).

+4 to all stats on someone with fairly balanced stats and someone who'd likely be an enemy phase unit would be good. It's nothing compared to gaining a >= 50% HP Quick Riposte like Roy does with unique refined Binding Blade. Anyway, I could see people considering +Res, -HP Shiro with this since he'd be able to hit 29 Res with Spectrum Stance 2 and 33 Res with Warding Breath giving him a total of 55 Atk, 34 Spd, 39 Def, and 33 Res or with Swift Stance 2, he'd lose +1 special charge for +4 more speed giving him a total of 55 Atk, 38 Spd, 39 Def, and 33 Res. +Spd, -HP Shiro would be able to have 55 Atk, 37 Spd, 39 Def, and 30 Res with Warding Breath and 55 Atk, 41 Spd, 39 Def, and 30 Res with Swift Stance 2. In both cases, his superbane in HP, 41 to 37 would be patched up with the unique refine giving him +3 HP, putting him up to 40 HP.

Dark Greatsword: 16 Mt. Base effect: "If unit initiates combat, grants Atk/Spd+4 during combat" (Swift Sparrow 2). Unique refinement: "If unit initiates combat, grants Atk/Spd/Def/Res+4 during combat" (Spectrum Blow 2).

Arguably not as good as Spectrum Stance 2 for Shiro because Siegbert doesn't really care about anything, but attack and speed. Defense helps unless you want him to get into Desperation 3 or Brash Assault/Desperation range or something, but resistance isn't as useful considering his 16 neutral base which becomes 12 if you take a -Res bane on him. He'd probably prefer Flashing/Heavy Blade, Brash Assault 4 like on Lyn's unique refined Sol Katti, Desperation 3, Dull Close 3, Forseti's reverse Desperation, or anything else really.

So, why Shiro and Siegbert and the Spectrum effect? As noted by others, although they are gen 2 units with boosted BST, their weapons only have one effect, the dual blow or dual stance skills, which probably has to do with them being early gen 2 units as it wasn't until Sacred Memories that solidified the trend of new units with personal weapons having two effects usually in the form of a stat boost and an effect. Prior to that, it was inconsistent with World of Holy War giving Arvis who was a GHB introduced alongside the banner, Ayra who was introduced in the banner, but was made summonable in another one, and Sigurd two effects, but Deirdre only one as effective damage more or less became a free effect later, Farfetched Heroes was essentially a CYL banner giving two effects to all units except Dorcas because of his Distant Counter axe, Children of Fate only having one effect for Shiro and Siegbert, and World of Dawn giving Micaiah two, arguably three effects, but Sothe arguably one if you consider CYL Veronica's staff having Dazzling Staff and Peshkatz's +4 buffs and debuffs as two effects where personal staves are guaranteed either Dazzling or Wrathful Staff as their one out of two effects.

As for the Spectrum effect, I figured a simple answer to giving them an additional effect would be to extend their original effects of a dual blow or dual stance skill to two dual blow or stance skills which works for Shiro since he has good bulk except for resistance and doesn't work for Siegbert since he's more of a player phase unit and Dark Greatsword already does that by giving him Swift Sparrow 2. Now, if you want to consider the Spectrum effects as their one, upgraded effect, then that leaves their unique refinement up in the air.

Shiro with Spectrum Stance 2 and a >= 50% Quick Riposte on unique refined Bright Naginata would be pretty nasty.

Edited October 8, 2018 by Kaden

[Diovani Bressan]

I would like Shiro's Bright Naginata having Quick Riposte as a extra effect, while Siegbert's Dark Greatsword having Desperation as a extra effect. Both effect work pretty well with each weapon and character.