General Weapon Refinery discussion/speculation/creation thread

[bottlegnomes]

5 hours ago, Jotari said:

Wasn't this thread meant to be about weapon refinery at some point, as interesting as it is to hear about people's opinion on the arena scoring.

Speaking of refinements, here's a couple I've got.

Tobin: Clueless Blade - Negate opponent's buffs from skills like rallies, hones, fortifies, etc.

Refinement: Negate in-combat effects of allied units' skills for both unit and opponent.

So basically PoR/RD's parity - terrain negation + dull everything. Though maybe terrain negation could be a free effect in the vein of effective damage...

Skills the unit itself has equipped would still work, like bonds, stanfes, and blows.

Technically, it could be considered more than two skills, since it's basically dull close + full ranged, but my thinking was parity becomes more or less a free effect by having a penalty, the unit also not getting combat buffs from allies.

Klein - Regal Bow: 9 Mt, if unit inititatew combat unit attacks consecutively (or whatever brave verbiage is), -5 speed.

Refinement: If unit initiates combat, grants spd+6 during combat.

Maybe introduce it on Louise and have the whole effect from jump.

So legendary brave + darting blow 3. I'm going to point to Olwen as evidence of ranged braves not being intrinsically broken. Klein's strength is okayish, his speed is decent, and his res and def aren't enough to let him do much more than survive a hit. So with this and L&D, he hits 45/40 at neutral with the ability to quad. Okay, maybe that's a bit much, but in my defense, Elincia hits 50/39 with the same setup I wanted to make it actually viable compared to brave and firesweep. The brave effect was to pay homage to his default kit. Darting blow is the same. Theory was to synergize with his native death blow 3. QR, I figured wasn't worth trying to tie in because his bulk is pretty minimal so there's a good chance he's not running it anyway.

Edited October 11, 2018 by bottlegnomes

[Sasori]

A lot of the day 1 characters could probably use a refine right about now. But there are still a lot of units to cover there, so i'm not going to get into that.

One not day 1 character that could use a refine is probably Mmorgan. Morgan himself is still fine, but Grima's truth keeps looking less impressive. First Sothe buffed/debuffed every stat and now Veronica has that alongside not being able get counterattacked.

Julia is another character whose weapon might need an upgrade. Naga's little buff is very outdated and the changes to dragon made both her and her mom a lot worse as dragon killers. Maybe her refine could draw inspiration from Flora's weapon and give them extra defense when attacking distant counter units.

[XRay]

I want to power creep Wo Weapons and "competently translate" Japanese like Treehouse give units a better way to deal with hard to kill Enemy Phase units.

Harmonic Sword, Wo Máo, Harmonic Axe: Mt 14; Deals effective damage when Special triggers.

[Ice Dragon]

3 minutes ago, XRay said:

Japanese

Chinese.

 

4 minutes ago, XRay said:

Máo

Mou.

[XRay]

14 minutes ago, Ice Dragon said:

Chinese.

 

Mou.

I am trying to be Treehouse. I was not sure which character to use since Japanese use 鉾 while traditional Chinese use 矛. Despite being Japanese weapons, they use Chinese pronunciation. Here is Harmonic Lance's wiki page.

Maybe Treehouse did their translation too. Ha!

Edited October 11, 2018 by XRay

[Ice Dragon]

8 minutes ago, XRay said:

I was not sure which character to use since Japanese use 鉾 while traditional Chinese use 矛. Despite being Japanese weapons, they use Chinese pronunciation.

Translating off of a translation is how you get Google Translate Sings.

[XRay]

5 minutes ago, Ice Dragon said:

Translating off of a translation is how you get Google Translate Sings.

I Googled translated both characters in both languages too. 鉾 did not give me any me translation results in Chinese for some reason, so maybe Treehouse thought it is not a word in Chinese?

[Ice Dragon]

5 minutes ago, XRay said:

I Googled translated both characters in both languages too. 鉾 did not give me any me translation results in Chinese for some reason, so maybe Treehouse thought it is not a word in Chinese?

https://www.mdbg.net/chinese/dictionary?page=worddict&wdrst=0&wdqb=鉾

[XRay]

10 minutes ago, Ice Dragon said:

https://www.mdbg.net/chinese/dictionary?page=worddict&wdrst=0&wdqb=鉾

I guess Treehouse or whoever did not do their homework.

[Ice Dragon]

3 minutes ago, XRay said:

I guess Treehouse or whoever did not do their homework.

Harmonic Lance and Windex appear to have been named with their default wielders in mind despite being inheritable weapons. I don't know why they decided to do that, but it looks like they've stopped, for now at least.

[Jotari]

1 minute ago, Ice Dragon said:

Harmonic Lance and Windex appear to have been named with their default wielders in mind despite being inheritable weapons. I don't know why they decided to do that, but it looks like they've stopped, for now at least.

Better than outright calling the weapon Berkut's Lance and making it inheritable.

[bottlegnomes]

15 minutes ago, Jotari said:

Better than outright calling the weapon Berkut's Lance and making it inheritable.

Literally anything is better than being called {Weilder}'s {Weapon} unless there's a well-justified story reason, but that's just my personal bias against what I perceive as the laziest possible naming convention.

Edited October 11, 2018 by bottlegnomes

[Fabulously Olivier]

2 minutes ago, bottlegnomes said:

Literally anything is better than being called {Weilder}'s {Weapon} unless there's a well-justified story reason, but that's just my personal bias against what I perceive as theblaziest possible naming convention.

I take the opposite approach. Yes, it's lazy, but it's also safe. Giving Camilla an axe named Camilla's Axe doesn't conflict with lore in the same way that giving her a uniquely named legendary axe would. If you give her something like Basilikos or Hauteclair, that brings up potential unintended lore connections between Fates and Archanea or Elibe that may not belong. If it's an entirely new named legendary, it has no relevance to existing weapons. Either way, one is left to wonder why Camilla doesn't have this weapon in the game proper (though I do think it is worth asking why all of the Fates princesses lack unique weapons when all of the princes have them, but I digress).

Conversely, this effect doesn't exist if we simply name it after the character. Their personal weapon is just their personal weapon. We can view it as simply being a Forged weapon and leave it at that.

[XRay]

4 minutes ago, bottlegnomes said:

Literally anything is better than being called {Weilder}'s {Weapon} unless there's a well-justified story reason, but that's just my personal bias against what I perceive as theblaziest possible naming convention.

I got a new idea.

Nowi's Toenails Naga's Fangs: Mt 12; Deals effective damage against flying foes. Deals effective damage against dragon foes. Effective damage stacks.

[bottlegnomes]

@Etheus I get where you're coming from, but how many characters in FE would be likely to follow that convention if the topic came up? It seems, at least to me, like they'd either name it or be like why would I do that, and then someone who cares enough (like Owainn) would probably give it a name. In the latter case, the wieder probably wouldn't care enough to argue the name. 

As for justifying personal weapons not being in games, I just chalk it up to them being from a slightly different universe than the one the game took place in.

@XRay Who would the wielder be? If it's not Naga, that's actually fine. Same as something like Marth welding Anri's Blade.  The name is paying respects/an acknowledgement of someone who is significant in some way to the actual wielder.

Edited October 11, 2018 by bottlegnomes

[XRay]

8 minutes ago, bottlegnomes said:

Who would the wielder be?

I guess Nowi alt or Naga.

[Diovani Bressan]

15 minutes ago, XRay said:

I got a new idea.

Nowi's Toenails Naga's Fangs: Mt 12; Deals effective damage against flying foes. Deals effective damage against dragon foes. Effective damage stacks.

Naga's Fangs: Mt 12; Effective against flying and dragon foes. Effective damage stacks.

Let's make the text as short as possible...

[XRay]

2 minutes ago, Diovani Bressan said:

Let's make the text as short as possible...

Blame the Treehouse in me.

[Ice Dragon]

8 minutes ago, XRay said:

Blame the Treehouse in me.

I feel sorry for the poor sap that had to build that treehouse in you.

[bottlegnomes]

44 minutes ago, XRay said:

I guess Nowi alt or Naga.

If it were Nowi, her having it might be a bit odd, but I wouldn't mind for the same reason. Naga would fall into my grope though.

 

32 minutes ago, Ice Dragon said:

I feel sorry for the poor sap that had to build that treehouse in you.

That certainly wood be a feat.

[XRay]

28 minutes ago, bottlegnomes said:

If it were Nowi, her having it might be a bit odd, but I wouldn't mind for the same reason.

She likes to collect her toenails.

[Corrobin]

Subaki: Perfection Naginata

When unit is at 100% HP, grants 8 Attack/Defense during combat.

Refine: Steady Blow

[Jotari]

2 hours ago, Etheus said:

I take the opposite approach. Yes, it's lazy, but it's also safe. Giving Camilla an axe named Camilla's Axe doesn't conflict with lore in the same way that giving her a uniquely named legendary axe would. If you give her something like Basilikos or Hauteclair, that brings up potential unintended lore connections between Fates and Archanea or Elibe that may not belong. If it's an entirely new named legendary, it has no relevance to existing weapons. Either way, one is left to wonder why Camilla doesn't have this weapon in the game proper (though I do think it is worth asking why all of the Fates princesses lack unique weapons when all of the princes have them, but I digress).

Conversely, this effect doesn't exist if we simply name it after the character. Their personal weapon is just their personal weapon. We can view it as simply being a Forged weapon and leave it at that.

They don't have to be legendary weapons though. It doesn't take all that much effort to make up a new weapon that ties to the character's personality while still not being so specific as to be seen as their prf. Example.

56 minutes ago, Corrobin said:

Subaki: Perfection Naginata

When unit is at 100% HP, grants 8 Attack/Defense during combat.

Refine: Steady Blow

Subaki talks about being perfect, give him the Perfect Naginata. Camilla's title is Bewitching Beauty, give her the Bewitching Axe. It ain't difficult, it takes like half a second longer to think about than literally using (character's name)'s (character's weapon) yet it works much better.

[colossus86]

3 hours ago, Sasori said:

One not day 1 character that could use a refine is probably Mmorgan. Morgan himself is still fine, but Grima's truth keeps looking less impressive. First Sothe buffed/debuffed every stat and now Veronica has that alongside not being able get counterattacked.
 

Male Morgan, (Along with several other heroes) are in a rough spot as far as weapons go. That's because based on what we've seen, their weapons already have 2 effects and aren't eligible to be refined.

Grima's Truth is what I've come to call a "Lopsided Weapon". These weapons generally have effects that IS feels are a bit overturned as a single effect, either in a general sense, or just in the context of who the weapon belongs to (i.e. Great Flame is a great weapon because it belongs to Myrrh, put a similar weapon on Clair and its garbage). So instead of granting these weapons a "full" 2nd effect, they just get a +3 to one stat in order to not be overbearing, or at least that's the idea. In some cases you can argue this approach is warranted.

Blizzard: While it may not be as easy to set up as a Bladetome, remember that Blizzard can give Gunnthra 35 additional damage on attack (-7 to all stats plus RES debuffs having double effectiveness, like how Bladetomes essentially double the effectiveness of ATK buffs)

Great Flame:Denies doubles duel phase and with no HP Threshold. Also worth noting that Myrrh has an easier time with defense checks than most units since she both has good base DEF and can increase her DEF in so many ways (Flier buffs, Dragon buffs, Tactics, etc.)

Flame Siegmund:Grants doubles duel phase with no HP Threshold, or any restrictions beyond positioning.

Now that's not to say there haven't been issues. My guess on Grima's Truth is that they felt the effect was a little strong for a tome and didn't want to give it a full second effect. It's also worth noting that while the above examples still hold strong imo, many other "Lopsided Weapons" (someone please make a better name) have fallen into disrepair due to their lone effects not aging well. Mulagir isn't considered a very good weapon by modern standard since it's effect isn't that crazy and doesn't have much coverage, though its important to remember its one of the first Dull effects in the game so IS prob didn't have a handle on how valuable those were/are. Additionally many feel B!Lucina's weapon has lost a lot of shine due to Marth's Falchion being far less restrictive and M!Corrin providing superior buffs for a single ally. But again it's important to remember B!Lucina's weapon was the first of its kind. THEN there's the absolute worst of the bunch, Leif's Light Brand. While it's understandable IS had some trepidation in Light Brand introducing a brand new effect to the game, they hilariously over estimated its potential, so much so that they added a generic weapon with an identical effect months later, and ignoring weapon type differences, a DEF refined Shining Bow is objectively better than Light Brand. (Sidebar: you really gotta feel bad for Leif, not only was he the last MC added to the game, he was overshadowed on his launch banner by an alt, got  a pfr skill that is situational at best, AND IS butchered his signature weapon).

With all that being said, I won't say "Lopsided Weapons" will never get refines, but it's hard to think IS won't focus on other areas first, and it might not happen until we get gen 3 weapons, or at least not until they're willing to give DC weapons refines

[Ice Dragon]

2 hours ago, Jotari said:

Subaki talks about being perfect, give him the Perfect Naginata. Camilla's title is Bewitching Beauty, give her the Bewitching Axe. It ain't difficult, it takes like half a second longer to think about than literally using (character's name)'s (character's weapon) yet it works much better.

Part of it is space limitations where longer weapon names simply won't fit in the space allotted on the screen. I believe this is why "Firesweep Sword+" and "Firesweep Lance+" were abbreviated to "Firesweep S+" and "Firesweep L+".

The original Japanese doesn't have this issue due to the writing system having more information density, thus allowing Camilla's Axe to be named カミラの艶斧, "Camilla's Bewitching Axe" without running into space limitations.