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General Weapon Refinery discussion/speculation/creation thread


Corrobin
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Plenty of other ideas for Laslow, but hey, why not.

Laslow's Blade: "16 Mt. If foe initiates combat, grants Spd+6 during combat."

Unique refinement ideas

  • "If Sing or Dance is used on unit, grants another action to allies adjacent to unit. (Cannot target an ally with Sing or Dance.)"
  • "If a Rally Assist skill is used by unit or targets unit or if Sing or Dance is used on unit, grants Atk/Spd+5 to target ally and allies within 2 spaces of target (excluding unit) for 1 turn."
  • "If a Rally Assist skill is used by unit or targets unit or if Sing or Dance is used on unit, inflicts Atk/Spd-5 on foes in cardinal directions of unit through their next actions."

Darting Stance being its base effect just comes from Laslow's Blade in Fates granting him Spd+3 and him being a dancer, someone with good footwork. That is to say, in a pinch, when Laslow's on the defense, he would be able to move quickly and avoid attacks or just be faster since Heroes doesn't have evasion. Basically, Laslow dancing around his opponent on the defense. It's also to allow Laslow to be deceptively fast depending on how you build him. Neutral Laslow with Darting Stance from his blade and Darting Stance as his seal hits 38 speed; 26 neutral base + 12. +Spd Laslow would hit 42 speed due to him gaining a super boon from +Spd. I specifically mention Darting Stance as a seal since you could have run anything you want for his A passive like for instance, an eventual Darting Breath. +Spd Laslow would then hit 46 speed and be able to gain +1 special charge with every hit. Or slap any of the breaths, Steady Stance 3/4, or go with Fury, L&D, a bond, whatever.

The unique refinement ideas mainly come from his Fancy Footwork personal skill in Fates, but more of the idea that Laslow being able to extend a dance's or song's effect through his own dance complementing the dance or song. The first one is literally extending a dance and is the most extreme idea since through him, you could potentially refresh the turns of four units including himself. The second and third idea are closer to Fancy Footwork's effect in Fates: "All allies within a 2-tile radius of the user will have their Strength and Speed increased by 1 when Rally is used.". It's just one buffs acting if it were a Rally Up Atk/Spd extension while the other debuffs as if it were Atk/Spd Feint that also worked with Sing and Dance.

Although the first idea is pretty extreme, it might be okay if the base effects for his blade were (upgraded to) "If foe initiates combat, grants Def/Spd+6 during combat" (Steady Posture 3), "If foe initiates combat, grants Spd+8 during combat and inflicts Special cooldown charge -1 on foe per attack. (Only highest value applied. Does not stack.)" (Darting Stance 4), of if it also had effective damage against cavalry, fliers, or whatever to make up for the unique refinement being very situational. The second and third unique refinement ideas would probably be fine with his blade only having Darting Stance 3 as its base effect. Maybe effective damage against a movement type if you want to throw him another bone or a larger one through Steady Posture 3 and Darting Stance 4.

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On 2/8/2019 at 11:04 PM, ILikeKirbys said:

Heavy Blade would be my suggestion for Eliwood with his shiny new Durandal, since (spoilers for the next Tempest Trials+)

@Corrobin Heavy Blade is never worth running in the A slot until one of Death Blow, Swift Sparrow, Life and Death, Atk/Spd Solo, or Fury is added as a Sacred Seal because you can run Heavy Blade in the Sacred Seal slot and one of the aforementioned skills in the A slot, but not the other way around.

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10 hours ago, Ice Dragon said:

@Corrobin Heavy Blade is never worth running in the A slot until one of Death Blow, Swift Sparrow, Life and Death, Atk/Spd Solo, or Fury is added as a Sacred Seal because you can run Heavy Blade in the Sacred Seal slot and one of the aforementioned skills in the A slot, but not the other way around.

With better A skills as Sacred Seals, I am not sure if it is even worth running Heavy Blade/Flashing Blade on the Sacred Seal slot anymore unless it is for scoring. The only reason we run Heavy Blade and Flashing Blade now is because the only other offensive Sacred Seals we got are Atk/Spd, Speed +3, and Attack +3.

Assuming Desperation is active, Fury, Swift Sparrow, and Life and Death are a guaranteed extra 6/8/10 damage when doubling and make the unit more likely to double. Moonbow-Heavy Blade/Flashing Blade ranges anywhere from 9-18 damage assuming foes have between 30-60 Def. That seems like a massive improvement, but it still under performs when compared to Fury Sacred Seal against both the Hard List and Full List (Fury 3/4 overwrite) with or without buffs. Even Reinhardt does not want Heavy Blade anymore if Death Blow or Life and Death Sacred Seals are released. Blade mages who can get the most out of Heavy Blade still prefer Fury too.

Challenger List: (I simulated Fury Sacred Seals by giving units 3/3/3/3 in Spurs, or 6/0/0/0 Spurs and 5/5/-5/-5 Spurs/debuffs for Reinhardt with Death Blow and Life and Death Sacred Seal.)

Spoiler

CHALLENGER LIST  
Eliwood (5*+10 +atk)  
Weapon: Durandal  
Special: Moonbow  
A: Fury 3  
B: Desperation 3  
C: Ward Cavalry  
S: Heavy Blade 3  
Upgrade Path: 5  
 
Eliwood (5*+10 +atk)  
Weapon: Durandal  
Special: Moonbow  
A: Fury 3  
B: Desperation 3  
C: Ward Cavalry  
Upgrade Path: 5  

Eliwood (5*+10 +spd)  
Weapon: Durandal  
Special: Moonbow  
A: Fury 3  
B: Desperation 3  
C: Ward Cavalry  
S: Heavy Blade 3  
Upgrade Path: 5  
 
Eliwood (5*+10 +spd)  
Weapon: Durandal  
Special: Moonbow  
A: Fury 3  
B: Desperation 3  
C: Ward Cavalry  
Upgrade Path: 5 
 
Reinhardt (5*+10 +atk)  
Weapon: Dire Thunder  
Special: Moonbow  
A: Death Blow 3  
C: Goad Cavalry  
S: Heavy Blade 3  
 
Reinhardt (5*+10 +atk)  
Weapon: Dire Thunder  
Special: Moonbow  
A: Death Blow 3  
C: Goad Cavalry  
 
Karla (5*+10 +spd)  
Weapon: Vassal's Blade  
Special: Luna  
A: Fury 3  
B: Desperation 3  
S: Heavy Blade 3  
 
Karla (5*+10 +spd)  
Weapon: Vassal's Blade  
Special: Luna  
A: Fury 3  
B: Desperation 3  
 
Nino (5*+10 +spd)  
Weapon: Iris's Tome  
Special: Moonbow  
A: Fury 3  
B: Desperation 3  
S: Heavy Blade 3  
Upgrade Path: 2  
 
Nino (5*+10 +spd)  
Weapon: Iris's Tome  
Special: Moonbow  
A: Fury 3  
B: Desperation 3  
Upgrade Path: 2 

 

Edited by XRay
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3 minutes ago, XRay said:

With better A skills as Sacred Seals, I am not sure if it is even worth running Heavy Blade/Flashing Blade on the Sacred Seal slot anymore unless it is for scoring. The only reason we run Heavy Blade and Flashing Blade now is because the only offensive Sacred Seals we got are Atk/Spd, Speed +3, and Attack +3.

 

Eh, I think this overlooks how specials can flip matchups an extra A slot worth of stats just wont. Also Galeforce builds really don't have a choice when it comes to Special acceleration. We also have to remember how long it takes IS to come out with seals at times. We're still waiting on Atk Tactic and Def Smoke so this question might not be fully relevant for a mighty long time.

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1 minute ago, colossus86 said:

Eh, I think this overlooks how specials can flip matchups an extra A slot worth of stats just wont. Also Galeforce builds really don't have a choice when it comes to Special acceleration. We also have to remember how long it takes IS to come out with seals at times. We're still waiting on Atk Tactic and Def Smoke so this question might not be fully relevant for a mighty long time.

Which match ups would Heavy Blade/Flashing Blade flip that Fury cannot flip?

Outside of very specific builds like Slaying-Galeforce or Special spamming with Special Spiral, there is no point in running Heavy Blade if better options exist. Atk/Spd, Speed +3, and even Attack +3 can often outperform Heavy Blade.

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@XRay

@colossus86 hit the nail on the head (blame me for being sleepy and not elaborating). Galeforce builds are the most notable use case of running Heavy Blade as they require the use of the skill to get Galeforce to activate on the first round of combat, and that can't be replaced by doubling up on increased stats. However, running Heavy Blade in the A slot in those cases is sub-optimal because the skills that boost Atk the most on player phase aren't yet Sacred Seals to allow you to reverse the slots.

You'll also note that I ignored enemy phase entirely as we already have the better Fierce Stance for that slot (though I'm still using Heavy Blade on Eldigan because Fierce Stance is already taken).

 

7 minutes ago, XRay said:

Outside of very specific builds like Slaying-Galeforce or Special spamming with Special Spiral, there is no point in running Heavy Blade if better options exist. Atk/Spd, Speed +3, and even Attack +3 can often outperform Heavy Blade.

"Very specific builds" are still viable builds nonetheless, and those builds rely entirely on the existence of Heavy Blade and Flashing Blade to function.

 

And while we're at it, there's also Raven and Linus's offensive tank Pavise build.

Edited by Ice Dragon
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13 minutes ago, XRay said:

Which match ups would Heavy Blade/Flashing Blade flip that Fury cannot flip?

Outside of very specific builds like Slaying-Galeforce or Special spamming with Special Spiral, there is no point in running Heavy Blade if better options exist. Atk/Spd, Speed +3, and even Attack +3 can often outperform Heavy Blade.

Being able to run a 3-4 charge special like dragon fang or Iceberg and activate it on initiation might be way more valuable than just having a few more stats. Someone like Fir cares more about getting her special off than having +6 atk or something like that.

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8 minutes ago, colossus86 said:

Being able to run a 3-4 charge special like dragon fang or Iceberg and activate it on initiation might be way more valuable than just having a few more stats. Someone like Fir cares more about getting her special off than having +6 atk or something like that.

She is trashing her performance just to flip a few match ups. Against Hard List +10 at 1HP, the only match up she flipped was against A!Tiki. Giving up lots of kills and survivability for a single unit does not seem worth it. Switching from Iceberg-Flashing Blade to Moonbow-Fury gives her 23 more kills and 11 less deaths at the cost of being killed by A!Tiki.

Flashing Blade 1HP:
76:135:37
Fury 1HP:
99:124:25
Life and Death 1HP:
123:107:18

Flashing Blade 100%HP:
71:85:92
Fury 100%HP:
95:73:80
Life and Death 100%HP:
109:89:50

Challenger List: (I have tested 3/3/3/3 and 5/5/-5/-5 on ones without Flashing Blade, at 1 HP and full HP on Fir.)

Spoiler

CHALLENGER LIST  
Fir (5*+10 +atk)  
Weapon: Nameless Blade  
Special: Iceberg  
A: Fury 3  
B: Desperation 3  
S: Flashing Blade 3  
Upgrade Path: 5  
 
Fir (5*+10 +atk)  
Weapon: Nameless Blade  
Special: Moonbow  
A: Fury 3  
B: Desperation 3  
Upgrade Path: 5  
 
Fir (5*+10 +atk)  
Weapon: Nameless Blade  
Special: Moonbow  
A: Fury 3  
B: Desperation 3  
Upgrade Path: 5  
 
Fir (5*+10 +atk)  
Weapon: Nameless Blade  
Special: Iceberg  
A: Fury 3  
B: Desperation 3  
S: Flashing Blade 3  
Upgrade Path: 5  
 
Fir (5*+10 +atk)  
Weapon: Nameless Blade  
Special: Moonbow  
A: Fury 3  
B: Desperation 3  
Upgrade Path: 5  
 
Fir (5*+10 +atk)  
Weapon: Nameless Blade  
Special: Moonbow  
A: Fury 3  
B: Desperation 3  
Upgrade Path: 5 

 

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1 hour ago, Corrobin said:

You mentioned Heavy/Flashing Blade and Galeforce, but what about Aether?

If you want to use Aether your best bet is just using a breath skill. There's no way to 1 turn Aether without pulse shenanigans on the player phase, and from a pure combat effectiveness standpoint, Aether is rarely a unit's preferred special anyways.

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@XRay In case you or anyone else is interested, I tested Fir's melee matchups using Desperation, Wrath, and Null Follow up. I used Glacies instead of Iceberg for non desperation tests and always Fury in the A slot. Moonbow for the non FB builds. Curious as to how this might differ for a different weapon and stat spread but I gotta go eat before the AAF comes back on.

  fhttps://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1Xo4Y2KzWPKgjLVAN42o1nTOPsWxXBUofUKahjNOWEjE/edit?usp=sharing

 

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1 minute ago, colossus86 said:

@XRay In case you or anyone else is interested, I tested Fir's melee matchups using Desperation, Wrath, and Null Follow up. I used Glacies instead of Iceberg for non desperation tests and always Fury in the A slot. Moonbow for the non FB builds. Curious as to how this might differ for a different weapon and stat spread but I gotta go eat before the AAF comes back on.

  fhttps://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1Xo4Y2KzWPKgjLVAN42o1nTOPsWxXBUofUKahjNOWEjE/edit?usp=sharing

 

Can you tell me how you set up the enemies?

I ran the following against Hard List +10 enemies but Flashing Blade still sucks compared to Fury.

Glacies-Flashing Blade:
78:71:99
Moonbow-Fury:
84:70:84

At 1 HP fully charged Special:
Glacies-Flashing Blade:
212:36:0
Moonbow-Fury:
131:114:3
Moonbow-Fury does give lower numbers, but Fir requires 2 turns for Wrath to fully charge her Special.

Challenger List:

Spoiler

CHALLENGER LIST  
Fir (5*+10)  
Weapon: Nameless Blade  
Special: Glacies  
A: Fury 3  
B: Wrath 3  
S: Flashing Blade 3  
Upgrade Path: 5  
 
Fir (5*+10)  
Weapon: Nameless Blade  
Special: Moonbow  
A: Fury 3  
B: Wrath 3  
Upgrade Path: 5  
 
Fir (5*+10)  
Weapon: Nameless Blade  
Special: Glacies  
A: Fury 3  
B: Wrath 3  
S: Flashing Blade 3  
Upgrade Path: 5  
 
Fir (5*+10)  
Weapon: Nameless Blade  
Special: Moonbow  
A: Fury 3  
B: Wrath 3  
Upgrade Path: 5 

 

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Disappointed that Oboro didn't get Waterwheel, but a second potential Close Defense 9 user is never bad.

Will we ever see DC weapon refines? Ryoma and Xander need them the most. Or will we ever see DC added as a base effect on a new power personal weapon? I'd gladly build Peri if her refine is faithful to source:

Peri's Lance - Unit can counterattack regardless of foe's range. Accelerates Special trigger (cooldown count -1). If unit KOs foe, grants +6 Atk/Spd/Def/Res for one turn after combat.

Edited by Chrom-ulent
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7 hours ago, Chrom-ulent said:

If unit KOs foe, grants +6 Atk/Spd/Def/Res for one turn after combat.

I'm going to mention again that this effect is completely useless outside of Galeforce builds and dancer team compositions.

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7 hours ago, Chrom-ulent said:

If unit KOs foe, grants +6 Atk/Spd/Def/Res for one turn after combat.

12 minutes ago, Ice Dragon said:

I'm going to mention again that this effect is completely useless outside of Galeforce builds and dancer team compositions.

Yeah... I agree with @Ice Dragon. The only way to make such type of skill useful is:

"If unit KOs foe, grants a permanent increase of Atk/Spd/Def/Res+2 to unit until the end of the map (max of +6)"

But I don't see InsSys doing something like this.

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41 minutes ago, Ice Dragon said:

I'm going to mention again that this effect is completely useless outside of Galeforce builds and dancer team compositions.

It's not completely useless, as it would still be extra stats for enemy phase, though in that case it's effectively a conditional Stance that can be panic'd.

Edited by YotsuMaboroshi
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1 minute ago, YotsuMaboroshi said:

It's not completely useless, as it would still be extra stats for enemy phase, though it that case it's effectively a conditional Stance that can be panic'd.

  1. Why on earth are you using Peri on enemy phase?
  2. The effect does exactly nothing if she already has Hone Cavalry and Fortify Cavalry on her.
  3. Hone Cavalry and Fortify Cavalry work on all rounds of combat instead of being completely useless.
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3 minutes ago, Ice Dragon said:
  1. Why on earth are you using Peri on enemy phase?
  2. The effect does exactly nothing if she already has Hone Cavalry and Fortify Cavalry on her.
  3. Hone Cavalry and Fortify Cavalry work on all rounds of combat instead of being completely useless.

The effect being unsuited to the unit is different from the effect being useless. 

It's not a great effect (mostly because field buffs don't stack), but might be OK for a mixed phase unit (though it'd be better if the effect was just self-buff after combat instead of requiring a kill).  Not every team runs full field buffs.

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13 minutes ago, YotsuMaboroshi said:

The effect being unsuited to the unit is different from the effect being useless. 

The context is Peri, so we are talking about the effect being unsuited to the unit and therefore being useless.

 

And even if we aren't talking about Peri in particular, this is a skill effect that (1) is guaranteed to not help your first round of combat in a game where units are typically expected to fight 2-3 rounds of combat per map (unlike skills like Desperation that can be activated through means other than combat), (2) requires you to make a kill to activate, which means its activation requirement is a limited resource per map, and (3) is an effect that not only uses a limited resource to activate, but only lasts for half a turn after activation. It's dead useless.

EDIT: I'm here doing my best to pretend that the Robins' exclusive weapons don't exist, but I'd gladly take those over this effect because at least those weapons have an effect that can be made use of in more reasonable circumstances.

Edited by Ice Dragon
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29 minutes ago, Ice Dragon said:

EDIT: I'm here doing my best to pretend that the Robins' exclusive weapons don't exist, but I'd gladly take those over this effect because at least those weapons have an effect that can be made use of in more reasonable circumstances.

Everyone knows that Robin's Prf effect is just +3 Atk, +2 Hp, +3 Res.

 

For reals though when the generic +stats is more useful than your Prf refine something went wrong. (And I'd definitely take the +stat refine over the hypothetical Peri Prf.)

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Couldn't find anything on Setsuna, but I'm pretty sure people have probably thought of something for her.

So, Setsuna's Yumi or Setsuna's Slow Yumi if they can fit that in would probably be like a Silver Dagger bow if it had its effect in Fates: "Enemy's Skl/Def/Res -4 on each successful hit; recover by 1 each turn." In Heroes, it would probably be this:

Setsuna's Yumi: "14 Mt. Effective against flying foes. After combat, if unit attacked, inflicts Def/Res-7 on target and foes within 2 spaces of target through their next actions."

Or maybe the Def/Res part would be -5, but that might be a Clarisse's Bow kind of got shafted thing. Anyway, it would basically be a personal Silver Dagger bow, the opposite of Clarisse's Bow, or a bow version of Dark Breath+.

A simple and fitting unique refinement idea would be Dull Everything like what Divine Naga has: "Neutralizes foe's bonuses (from skills like Fortify, Rally, etc.) during combat." Setsuna is a special creature and having Dull Everything would be like if she were a Bidoof or Bibarel with the Unaware ability. It wouldn't matter for Setsuna much since her defenses only differ by 1 point, but it could be extended to have "and disables foe's skills that 'calculate damage using the lower of foe's Def or Res'" as well. Null C-Disrupt: "Neutralizes status effects and disables skills that prevent counterattacks during combat", might make more sense if they were to extend it because Setsuna reasons.

Combined, this might not help Setsuna that much. She gets to ignore all field buffs and status effects, but other than that, all she would have is a personal Silver Dagger with effective damage against fliers. On the bright side, that means you can field her as a both a bow and dagger unit.

A different base effect from Flashing Blade, Guard because she's so derpy to realize someone is trying to charge their special to try and kill her, Killer effect, Wo Dao effect, or the speed damage thing: "If unit's Spd > foe's Spd, deals damage = 70% of difference between stats. (Maximum bonus of +7 damage. Combos with Phantom Spd.)" would probably be more helpful.

Edited by Kaden
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8 hours ago, DehNutCase said:

Everyone knows that Robin's Prf effect is just +3 Atk, +2 Hp, +3 Res.

 

For reals though when the generic +stats is more useful than your Prf refine something went wrong. (And I'd definitely take the +stat refine over the hypothetical Peri Prf.)

Am I the only one who really likes Robin's refines?

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21 minutes ago, colossus86 said:

Am I the only one who really likes Robin's refines?

They're not bad, I'd rate them around 7/10 or 8/10, which is plenty usable.

 

The problem is that there are 10/10 supports out there (Legendary Azura, Eir, etc.), meaning you're never bringing Robin for their support, so you're just going to treat the Prf as a higher stat -raven tome.

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