General Weapon Refinery discussion/speculation/creation thread

[XRay]

I think the Cleaner needs a special Refinement to make it more viable.

Refinement:
Grants bonus to unit's Atk = total penalties on foe during combat.

That way, as long as the foe has any sort of visible stat mod, the Cleaner will deal extra damage.

— — — — — — —

And for Legault himself, he needs something more flashy.

Spoiler

Damned If You Do, Damned If You Don't:
Adds total bonuses on foe to damage dealt during combat. Grants bonus to unit's Atk = total penalties on foe during combat.

Refinement:
Grants bonus to unit's Atk = 28 - total bonuses on foe during combat.

He basically has a permanent Atk+28, and more if the opponent has penalties.

— — — — — — —

Our fiery waifu Gunnthrá needs some love too.

Spoiler

Refinement:
Inflicts Res-7 on foes within 2 spaces during combat. Inflicts Res-7 on target and foes within 2 spaces of target through their next actions before combat.

Since her base Weapon comes with only one effect, I think it is fine to put two effects in the Refinement for a total of three effects. Gunnthrá will now have a guaranteed Atk+21 against anyone she fights.

 

[Baldrick]

9 hours ago, Ice Dragon said:

Which still falls under the category of "add a bunch of potentially big numbers together and then drop that all on your Atk stat".

You're pretty much arguing that I can't lump Fortify Res under "Hone-like skills" because it adds Res instead of Atk or Spd (fun fact: the differentiation between "Hone" and "Fortify" only exists in the localizations of the game).

IMO, it's more like saying Threaten skills aren't Hone-like. Since Threaten/Blizzard synergises in the same way Hone/Fortify/Blade does.

Edited February 14, 2019 by Baldrick

[DehNutCase]

11 hours ago, XRay said:

I think the Cleaner needs a special Refinement to make it more viable.

Refinement:
Grants bonus to unit's Atk = total penalties on foe during combat.

That way, as long as the foe has any sort of visible stat mod, the Cleaner will deal extra damage.

You sure you want to give that to a weapon class that gives -14 stat penalty in an AoE?

 

It's not like we can't run CC Vantage on Daggers. (And ho boy trying to fight 6 unit AR teams of that sounds 'fun.')

[XRay]

10 minutes ago, DehNutCase said:

You sure you want to give that to a weapon class that gives -14 stat penalty in an AoE?

 

It's not like we can't run CC Vantage on Daggers. (And ho boy trying to fight 6 unit AR teams of that sounds 'fun.')

Yeah. Daggers sorely need some love. They already decided to throw balance out the window with VS!Azura, so I might as well go ham with daggers.

The best counter to AI Counter-Vantage is another Counter-Vantage unit from the player. Since I got Laevatein as my premier Counter-Vantage unit, I do not mind seeing those dagger units in Aether Raids.

[DehNutCase]

7 minutes ago, XRay said:

Yeah. Daggers sorely need some love. They already decided to throw balance out the window with VS!Azura, so I might as well go ham with daggers.

The best counter to AI Counter-Vantage is another Counter-Vantage unit from the player. Since I got Laevatein as my premier Counter-Vantage unit, I do not mind seeing those dagger units in Aether Raids.

The thing about -blade CC is that the user doesn't have to run -blade CC.

 

The dagger is insanely broken in the same way Reinhardt is broken, it's good on way too many skill-sets. The Cleaner Prf doesn't have to run Vantage CC on all of them, a couple of them can run regular player phase sets. Like, say, Dull Melee/Dull Ranged + Sturdy Impact, or Hardy Bearing. Vantage DC\CC would only work as a counter if the defense team is built badly.

And the 6 dagger team comp even get to run dancers thanks to how many dancing daggers we get, so you can't debuff them reliably despite they fact that they threaten the player on both phases.

Edited February 14, 2019 by DehNutCase

[XRay]

1 hour ago, DehNutCase said:

The thing about -blade CC is that the user doesn't have to run -blade CC.

 

The dagger is insanely broken in the same way Reinhardt is broken, it's good on way too many skill-sets. The Cleaner Prf doesn't have to run Vantage CC on all of them, a couple of them can run regular player phase sets. Like, say, Dull Melee/Dull Ranged + Sturdy Impact, or Hardy Bearing. Vantage DC\CC would only work as a counter if the defense team is built badly.

And the 6 dagger team comp even get to run dancers thanks to how many dancing daggers we get, so you can't debuff them reliably despite they fact that they threaten the player on both phases.

It is no more broken than Blade tomes, with 30/6/6/6 being expected on even infantry mages nowadays, and with Hone Atk 4 being a thing 35/7/7/7 is not unheard of either.

[Chrom-ulent]

Maybe discussed before, but how broken would Frederick be if he was an armored cavalier proper like in his original game? Grants +4 Atk/Def, which counts towards unit's stat total in modes like Arena. Skills with "effective against armors" are effective against unit, and skills with both "effective against armors" and "effective against cavalry" are doubly effective.

But knowing his role, and knowing the underwhelming refines Seth and Titania got, I'm not holding my breath for this.

[Ice Dragon]

20 minutes ago, Chrom-ulent said:

Maybe discussed before, but how broken would Frederick be if he was an armored cavalier proper like in his original game? Grants +4 Atk/Def, which counts towards unit's stat total in modes like Arena. Skills with "effective against armors" are effective against unit, and skills with both "effective against armors" and "effective against cavalry" are doubly effective.

But knowing his role, and knowing the underwhelming refines Seth and Titania got, I'm not holding my breath for this.

8 points of stats in exchange for being weak to the most common effective weapons in the game (and most likely losing 1 movement range) sounds like a terrible deal.

Edited February 14, 2019 by Ice Dragon

[Chrom-ulent]

1 hour ago, Ice Dragon said:

8 points of stats in exchange for being weak to the most common effective weapons in the game (and most likely losing 1 movement range) sounds like a terrible deal.

He would not be losing movement range. He still had 7 move in Awakening, vs. 6 for a promoted infantry unit. Hmm, maybe I should also scrap the "doubly effective" bit, and make it +5 instead of +4. 

[Ice Dragon]

26 minutes ago, Chrom-ulent said:

He would not be losing movement range. He still had 7 move in Awakening, vs. 6 for a promoted infantry unit. Hmm, maybe I should also scrap the "doubly effective" bit, and make it +5 instead of +4. 

It still doesn't change the fact that armor-effective weapons are the most commonly used effective weapons in the game. Real armors have high raw stats to somewhat offset the damage, access to Bold Fighter and Wary Fighter that limit the number of times they are hit by the opponent, and access to Svalinn Shield to nullify the weakness entirely.

 

31 minutes ago, Chrom-ulent said:

He still had 7 move in Awakening, vs. 6 for a promoted infantry unit.

Versus 8 for all other promoted mounted classes.

[Baldrick]

30 minutes ago, Chrom-ulent said:

He would not be losing movement range. He still had 7 move in Awakening, vs. 6 for a promoted infantry unit. Hmm, maybe I should also scrap the "doubly effective" bit, and make it +5 instead of +4. 

To be honest, I'd still spend dew on Seth, since his refine at least gives him potential as a support unit. Just a stat boost won't fix his problems.

If it was something like Bold Fighter, that may be broken.

[ILikeKirbys]

@Baldrick Yeah, Seth at least has potential as a guy who's great for ripping Surtrs apart. Arguably Palla can be better at this if you can keep Flying allies near her since she gets Omni Blow 1.5 & Brave Triangle Adept Weapon in those circumstances and thus is guaranteed to hit at least twice, but yeah Seth's is not terrible... even if it isn't gonna make me use him.

Regarding Frederick, what if he got Sturdy Stance 2 + optional Armor-Weakness & Wary Fighter 3 for his weapon? I doubt Wary Fighter would make Frederick broken, but he'd certainly be better at tanking physical hits if he could avoid getting doubled as often.

Although, I would bet that the only unit gaining Armor-Weakness + Armor-Only-Skill would be Lukas, if anyone, since he promoted directly to the Knight classes in Gaiden/Echoes.

Edited February 15, 2019 by ILikeKirbys

[XRay]

29 minutes ago, ILikeKirbys said:

optional Armor-Weakness & Wary Fighter 3

That is more of a nerf in my opinion, as Wary Fighter disables his own doubles too. I think the armor weakness would be more acceptable if it only shuts down foes' doubles but not his own.

[ILikeKirbys]

12 minutes ago, XRay said:

That is more of a nerf in my opinion, as Wary Fighter disables his own doubles too. I think the armor weakness would be more acceptable if it only shuts down foes' doubles but not his own.

I thought that would be a bit too good, but yeah, that would work for Frederick since he'd probably need something like Quick Riposte to double anyway due to his SPD being low, and he winds up with two weaknesses afterward so it's probably okay to give him a better version of Wary Fighter to compensate for this (which makes me wonder what would happen if he got Wing Sworded/Rhomphaia'd/Thani'd/Dawn Suzu'd with this weapon refinement... Would Caeda's/Clair's/Micaiah's ATK be multiplied by 2.25x since her weapon is effective against Cavalry (which Frederick is) and Armored (which Frederick becomes with the refinement) and thus would be twice as effective against Frederick, or would it just be 1.5x like usual effective damage?).

Edited February 15, 2019 by ILikeKirbys

[XRay]

31 minutes ago, ILikeKirbys said:

I thought that would be a bit too good, but yeah, that would work for Frederick since he'd probably need something like Quick Riposte to double anyway due to his SPD being low, and he winds up with two weaknesses afterward so it's probably okay to give him a better version of Wary Fighter to compensate for this (which makes me wonder what would happen if he got Wing Sworded/Rhomphaia'd/Thani'd/Dawn Suzu'd with this weapon refinement... Would Caeda's/Clair's/Micaiah's ATK be multiplied by 2.25x since her weapon is effective against Cavalry (which Frederick is) and Armored (which Frederick becomes with the refinement) and thus would be twice as effective against Frederick, or would it just be 1.5x like usual effective damage?).

I prefer the 2.25 times damage, but I think capping it at 1.5 times damage is okay too if 2.25 is too strong.

[DehNutCase]

20 hours ago, XRay said:

It is no more broken than Blade tomes, with 30/6/6/6 being expected on even infantry mages nowadays, and with Hone Atk 4 being a thing 35/7/7/7 is not unheard of either.

Consistency matters. Being counterable matters. You have a weapon type that gives itself 21 extra damage guaranteed without any setup other than one single weapon slot that happens buff other users of that weapon slot and you think it's balanced.

 

You're not asking for a team with 1 blade tomer with 1 or 2 legendary Azura as support to give them a bunch of buffs, you're asking for the equivalent of a team of 6 -blade tomers that all get legendary Azura support even if they were the only unit on the team, that happen to be un-counterable. If -blade ever got truly dominant we do still have Dull Ranged effects. But we have no effects at the moment that negate penalties.

Like, I rate Legendary Azura 10/10, and she actually bumped down all other flying dancers to 9.5 in my opinion (as well as random stuff like Spring!Camilla), but your Cleaner Prf would actually bump Legendary Azura down to 9.5 or 9.

 

Stat Spread, Movement Type, Skill Access all matter from a balance perspective, and the Cleaner Prf you're asking for tosses all of that out the window just because. Like, you're doing the equivalent of giving Azura actual combat stats and an actual combat Prf and you don't see why that's a problem.

[XRay]

3 hours ago, DehNutCase said:

Consistency matters. Being counterable matters. You have a weapon type that gives itself 21 extra damage guaranteed without any setup other than one single weapon slot that happens buff other users of that weapon slot and you think it's balanced.

 

You're not asking for a team with 1 blade tomer with 1 or 2 legendary Azura as support to give them a bunch of buffs, you're asking for the equivalent of a team of 6 -blade tomers that all get legendary Azura support even if they were the only unit on the team, that happen to be un-counterable. If -blade ever got truly dominant we do still have Dull Ranged effects. But we have no effects at the moment that negate penalties.

Like, I rate Legendary Azura 10/10, and she actually bumped down all other flying dancers to 9.5 in my opinion (as well as random stuff like Spring!Camilla), but your Cleaner Prf would actually bump Legendary Azura down to 9.5 or 9.

 

Stat Spread, Movement Type, Skill Access all matter from a balance perspective, and the Cleaner Prf you're asking for tosses all of that out the window just because. Like, you're doing the equivalent of giving Azura actual combat stats and an actual combat Prf and you don't see why that's a problem.

But Super Cleaner still has consistency issues since Harsh Command and Restore exists, and it requires enemies to be bunched up together for the debuff to reach them.

+21 damage is only guaranteed in the Counter-Vantage build, and +21 damage is peanuts compared to Blade tomes' 30 or 35 damage that also targets the defensive stat that is weaker for most units.

Even with Dancer/Singer support, Super Cleaner is not going to take advantage of +21 damage on Player Phase consistently since you do not want to be stranded in enemy range.

Edited February 15, 2019 by XRay

[DehNutCase]

11 minutes ago, XRay said:

But Super Cleaner still has consistency issues since Harsh Command and Restore exists, and it requires enemies to be bunched up together for the debuff to reach them.

+21 damage is only guaranteed in the Counter-Vantage build, and +21 damage is peanuts compared to Blade tomes' 30 or 35 damage that also targets the defensive stat that is weaker for most units.

Even with Dancer/Singer support, Super Cleaner is not going to take advantage of +21 damage on Player Phase consistently since you do not want to be stranded in enemy range.

You're giving the -blade tomer a bunch of free shit for no reason here. Every skill slot the -blade tomer is using the Cleaner can also be using, just with different skills. The Cleaner also has dancer access, has C-slot buff access, etc. You're giving the -blade tomer a unit-turn, 2 weapon slots, a C-slot, and comparing it to the Prf Cleaner using up just one weapon slot.

 

The direct comparision is -blade being +1 cd and the Prf Cleaner being +21 damage after the first combat. This is the result if neither gets any support, including selfish ones.

This is not a difference that decreases as you give them both more skill slots. We have chills, we have smokes, we have even janky stuff like ploys. The Cleaner Prf uses support just as well as the -blade tomer, and it starts better.

 

You're basically saying that, because a -blade tomer using up a unit-turn from someone else, a weapon slot from someone else, and a C-slot from someone else is comparable to the Prf Cleaner using only their own weapon slot, there's nothing wrong with the Prf Cleaner.

[XRay]

1 hour ago, DehNutCase said:

You're giving the -blade tomer a bunch of free shit for no reason here. Every skill slot the -blade tomer is using the Cleaner can also be using, just with different skills. The Cleaner also has dancer access, has C-slot buff access, etc. You're giving the -blade tomer a unit-turn, 2 weapon slots, a C-slot, and comparing it to the Prf Cleaner using up just one weapon slot.

 

The direct comparision is -blade being +1 cd and the Prf Cleaner being +21 damage after the first combat. This is the result if neither gets any support, including selfish ones.

This is not a difference that decreases as you give them both more skill slots. We have chills, we have smokes, we have even janky stuff like ploys. The Cleaner Prf uses support just as well as the -blade tomer, and it starts better.

 

You're basically saying that, because a -blade tomer using up a unit-turn from someone else, a weapon slot from someone else, and a C-slot from someone else is comparable to the Prf Cleaner using only their own weapon slot, there's nothing wrong with the Prf Cleaner.

Blade tomes have very little consistency issues because the player is in complete control of how much Atk the Blade mage gets. And getting buffs on your units is much easier than getting debuffs on enemies.

Super Cleaner on the other hand is entirely dependent on the opponent having buffs and debuffs. Chills are not always going to land on the unit you want and you cannot always give up positioning to land a Ploy. Smokes have the same problem as daggers in that it requires enemies to be bunched up for the debuff to reach other enemies, and Smokes do nothing for the first unit initiating on a turn.

Super Cleaner at best is going to rival Blade tomes, not surpass it.

[Chrom-ulent]

12 hours ago, ILikeKirbys said:

Yeah, Seth at least has potential as a guy who's great for ripping Surtrs apart. Arguably Palla can be better at this if you can keep Flying allies near her since she gets Omni Blow 1.5 & Brave Triangle Adept Weapon in those circumstances and thus is guaranteed to hit at least twice, but yeah Seth's is not terrible... even if it isn't gonna make me use him.

Regarding Frederick, what if he got Sturdy Stance 2 + optional Armor-Weakness & Wary Fighter 3 for his weapon? I doubt Wary Fighter would make Frederick broken, but he'd certainly be better at tanking physical hits if he could avoid getting doubled as often.

Although, I would bet that the only unit gaining Armor-Weakness + Armor-Only-Skill would be Lukas, if anyone, since he promoted directly to the Knight classes in Gaiden/Echoes.

I built Seth and Palla as anti-Surtr units. Ironically, Hinata's new personal weapon ditches the gem effect and I'll probably use Triangle Adept to keep him among my Anti-Surtr units.

As for Frederick, maybe Sturdy Impact would be a good refine effect (combined with Sturdy Stance 2 as the base effect) for his personal weapon. Caeda and Clair got Flashing Blade as their refine effect despite restrictions. I'd still make it inflict armor weaknesses, and then make it a duel skill too.

Edited February 15, 2019 by Chrom-ulent

[DehNutCase]

9 hours ago, XRay said:

Blade tomes have very little consistency issues because the player is in complete control of how much Atk the Blade mage gets. And getting buffs on your units is much easier than getting debuffs on enemies.

Super Cleaner on the other hand is entirely dependent on the opponent having buffs and debuffs. Chills are not always going to land on the unit you want and you cannot always give up positioning to land a Ploy. Smokes have the same problem as daggers in that it requires enemies to be bunched up for the debuff to reach other enemies, and Smokes do nothing for the first unit initiating on a turn.

Super Cleaner at best is going to rival Blade tomes, not surpass it.

Dude, I use Savage Blow on CC Rein, and Savage Blow has far stricter requirements than smoke.

 

First: Teams that are spread out are trivial. If you can manage to lose to those teams, you deserve to lose.

 

Second: Debuffing enemies is trivial. The sheer fact that Galeforce Cordelia is a set should tell you that taking a combat without dying is pretty damn easy, and that's all a dagger user needs to debuff enemies. Take one combat without getting ORKOd back. Further, if you're willing to spend a unit turn doing literally nothing except buffing your -blade tomer (what, did they take a combat with only +Atk buffs, the same thing you think can't be done for a Prf Cleaner? Note that the Prf Cleaner also has access to buffs), then you're willing to spend a turn for Feint skills.

 

Third: Prf Cleaner is better for the AI than for the player. The AI does not mind losing units, killing the entire offensive team with 6 units left and 1 unit left is identical in terms of how well the defense team did. The defense team would not mind suicide one unit into your team in order to give everyone else on that team +21 damage.

 

Fourth: The fact that Dull Ranged and Dull Melee exists should tell you that -blade tomes are not more consistent than Prf Cleaner. (You're running into some really polite teams that let you Harsh Command before the team takes their next combat, if you think Harsh Command or Restore works.)

 

Fifth: It's trivial to take the same number of combats as you have units in a given player phase. Which is why if AR was 6v6 I'd still be running my Galeforce team as my main team right now. This means that fighting vs. non Prf-Cleaner teams is a simple matter of killing them all, leaving only the unit that doesn't matter alive for you to break pots.

Prf Cleaner Vs. Prf Cleaner would be 'fair' in the sense that the defense team would have an actual chance to win, thanks to the sheer depth of the kinds of skill sets you can slap on the Prf Cleaner units. It's a lot easier to cover sets that can only be scissors than sets that can be rock, scissors, and paper, all in the same team, and sometimes all in the same unit. AR would devolve into everybody running multiple Prf-Cleaner teams to cover the possible Prf-Cleaner team variants and you see nothing wrong with that.

 

You're asking to break daggers as a weapon class while simultaneously making PvP even more annoying and you think that's a good change for the game.

 

 

Like, you're thinking that the easiest possible set to build on a Prf-Cleaner, CC, Vantage, Atk Smoke, Spd Smoke, is also the strongest set, and that's just flat out not true. This set is trivial to build and on par with a two unit -blade Legendary Azura pair, and it's not even that good relative to the shit you can actually do with that dagger.

[XRay]

3 minutes ago, DehNutCase said:

Second: Debuffing enemies is trivial. The sheer fact that Galeforce Cordelia is a set should tell you that taking a combat without dying is pretty damn easy, and that's all a dagger user needs to debuff enemies. Take one combat without getting ORKOd back. Further, if you're willing to spend a unit turn doing literally nothing except buffing your -blade tomer (what, did they take a combat with only +Atk buffs, the same thing you think can't be done for a Prf Cleaner? Note that the Prf Cleaner also has access to buffs), then you're willing to spend a turn for Feint skills.

Debuffing enemies is not trivial. Buffs are far easier to utilize and manage than debuffs.

Super Cleaner cannot utilize buffs the same way Blade tomes can. Super Cleaner gets a massive amount of damage ONLY if the foe has lots of buffs and debuffs, and getting debuffs on enemies is no where as easy and consistent as simply getting buffs on your own units.

Blade mages can get a flat Atk+12/14 minimum damage increase right from the start, assuming VS!Azura with Atk Tactic/Hone Atk support, and that is not counting additional buffs she can equip on her Sacred Seal slot. Super Cleaner cannot get that crazy amount of power right from the start.

15 minutes ago, DehNutCase said:

Third: Prf Cleaner is better for the AI than for the player. The AI does not mind losing units, killing the entire offensive team with 6 units left and 1 unit left is identical in terms of how well the defense team did. The defense team would not mind suicide one unit into your team in order to give everyone else on that team +21 damage.

It is no different from a Blade mage defense team with GOW!Eirika, and with little tweaking, you can have +22 damage for all the nukes on a team.

And the AI is not the only one who does not mind losing a unit. It is not ideal to lose units, but I do not mind sending a unit in to die occasionally if it means it will mess up the AI and make the battle easier to win. Perfect play only matters if lots of other players also get perfect play consistently.

19 minutes ago, DehNutCase said:

Fourth: The fact that Dull Ranged and Dull Melee exists should tell you that -blade tomes are not more consistent than Prf Cleaner. (You're running into some really polite teams that let you Harsh Command before the team takes their next combat, if you think Harsh Command or Restore works.)

That is like saying Firesweep Bow and Brave Bow are inconsistent because Raven mages are thing. Raven mages are a thing, but they are so pathetic in the AIs hands that you simply do not see them often on defense teams, and if you do see them, they are not even that threatening. By the same token, Dull Ranged and Dull Melee are not so good that they consistently show up on defense teams either.

33 minutes ago, DehNutCase said:

Fifth: It's trivial to take the same number of combats as you have units in a given player phase. Which is why if AR was 6v6 I'd still be running my Galeforce team as my main team right now. This means that fighting vs. non Prf-Cleaner teams is a simple matter of killing them all, leaving only the unit that doesn't matter alive for you to break pots.

Prf Cleaner Vs. Prf Cleaner would be 'fair' in the sense that the defense team would have an actual chance to win, thanks to the sheer depth of the kinds of skill sets you can slap on the Prf Cleaner units. It's a lot easier to cover sets that can only be scissors than sets that can be rock, scissors, and paper, all in the same team, and sometimes all in the same unit. AR would devolve into everybody running multiple Prf-Cleaner teams to cover the possible Prf-Cleaner team variants and you see nothing wrong with that.

But multi Super Cleaner defense teams are not un-counterable. They are no more threatening than any other Player Phase teams where being hit is not ideal, so you just hit them first before they hit you.

22 minutes ago, DehNutCase said:

You're asking to break daggers as a weapon class while simultaneously making PvP even more annoying and you think that's a good change for the game.

Gunnthrá, Chills, Smokes, etc. are all already in the game, and Gunnthrá is far from being considered broken. Sure, Gunnthrá does not have Def/Res Smoke built into her Weapon, but even if it is, while I agree that she would be better, I would not consider her to be broken.

[DehNutCase]

2 minutes ago, XRay said:

Debuffing enemies is not trivial. Buffs are far easier to utilize and manage than debuffs.

??? Hitting things without dying is literally how player phase units work. That's all it takes to debuff units.

 

And ease of use has nothing to do with power level. Just because there are people who can't beat armors with Reinhardt because 'Reinhardt doesn't have enough stats' doesn't mean Reinhardt isn't a broken mess of a unit.

2 minutes ago, XRay said:

Super Cleaner cannot utilize buffs the same way Blade tomes can. Super Cleaner gets a massive amount of damage ONLY if the foe has lots of buffs and debuffs, and getting debuffs on enemies is no where as easy and consistent as simply getting buffs on your own units.

How is using 2 units to get the same amount of damage easier than using 1 unit to get the same amount of damage? For equal investment, the Cleaner has more damage, even in the very first round because they have 2cd special access if they tank a counter.

2 minutes ago, XRay said:

Blade mages can get a flat Atk+12/14 minimum damage increase right from the start, assuming VS!Azura with Atk Tactic/Hone Atk support, and that is not counting additional buffs she can equip on her Sacred Seal slot. Super Cleaner cannot get that crazy amount of power right from the start.

Relative to cleaner, -blade gets +6 or +7, if we manage to double that's 12 or 14 damage, which is easily covered by Cleaner's access to Moonbow for that same combat. And if the Cleaner isn't getting countered, i.e. Moonbow doesn't trigger, then hey, we just found a fucking trivial way to debuff the entire enemy team.

 

Further, Legendary Azura can't run -blade tomes and still use her Prf. Cleaner units can run Cleaner. Legendary Azura + Blade > Cleaner, but 2 Cleaner > Legendary Azura + Blade.

And 6 Cleaner > basically every other team comp. (There are small exceptions like the ones where you'd bring in Legendary Azura for an effective +14 all stats, but that's for being lazy rather than performance most of the time.)

 

Even in the weird ass case where you're running double Tactics on Azura it's still only +10 or +9 damage per hit relative to Cleaner, because Drive Atk could've been in that S-slot. Cleaner is also better with Chill Def than -blade is with Chill Res, so first combat damage difference is completely nullified anyway*, even if we ignore the possibility of using Pulse Skills for first combat performance. (Since the 2+ combats are basically trivial.)

*If neither the Chill'd person nor anyone else on the enemy team get ORKO'd by your team of 6 min-maxed Cleaner units, you need to stop bringing level 1 units to serious modes.

2 minutes ago, XRay said:

And the AI is not the only one who does not mind losing a unit. It is not ideal to lose units, but I do not mind sending a unit in to die occasionally if it means it will mess up the AI and make the battle easier to win. Perfect play only matters if lots of other players also get perfect play consistently.

Lots of other players do play perfectly consistently. The game should not be balanced around people who play half assed, because that's how broken units end up being designed.

 

Further, the Cleaner teams are resource checks as well as skill checks, they ask 'do you have X set?' and if the answer is no then you lose a unit. Yes, it's good for the gacha to force players to pull for more resources, but that's not how you should design a game.

 

I think that's the biggest problem, honestly. For some reason your vision of a 'good game' is a game that's as unfun to play as possible. Most people, me included, DO NOT THINK THAT WAY.

2 minutes ago, XRay said:

That is like saying Firesweep Bow and Brave Bow are inconsistent because Raven mages are thing. Raven mages are a thing, but they are so pathetic in the AIs hands that you simply do not see them often on defense teams, and if you do see them, they are not even that threatening. By the same token, Dull Ranged and Dull Melee are not so good that they consistently show up on defense teams either.

Raven mages don't counter Firesweep, the fuck are you talking about? In what universe does a unit type that doesn't even hit the firesweeper counter firesweeps? Firesweeps are favored against Raven Tomers that don't use Null C-Disrupt. Triangle advantage is just a bunch of +Atk and +Bulk, you're basically saying armors counter firesweep. Armor units have more Atk from more BST, and more Def/Res from more BST. Like, why would you even say that.

 

Firesweep is inconsistent because dangerous Null C-Disrupt users and teams that can apply pressure exist. Firesweep trades map control for chip damage, so to counter it you either have some way to negate chip damage (Null C-Disrupt users usually do this by healing from smacking you to death) or some way to apply tremendous amounts of map pressure (enemy ranged horses tend to do this well).

Brave Bows are not inconsistent because units with enough def to completely wall them are so unwieldy putting them on a team actually decreases your win rate even against Brave Bows. Kind of like how G-Tomebreaker does all of jack all versus Lewyn because, as nice as the skill looks against Lewyn himself, it's complete garbage against the team Lewyn is on.

 

-blade does not get a pass the way Brave Bows do because you fucking devoted 2 unit slots to that set. Brave Bow sets only cost you one unit slot, but you keep pretending giving the -blade unit 2 unit slots is somehow just as cheap as using 1 unit slot.

2 minutes ago, XRay said:

But multi Super Cleaner defense teams are not un-counterable. They are no more threatening than any other Player Phase teams where being hit is not ideal, so you just hit them first before they hit you.

You do remember how Cleaner teams can run CC Vantage, right?

 

They're not player phase teams, they're optimized mix-phase teams. Just because you can't build good mix-phase teams that are nightmarish to play against using Cleaner doesn't mean other people can't.

1 minute ago, XRay said:

Gunnthrá, Chills, Smokes, etc. are all already in the game, and Gunnthrá is far from being considered broken. Sure, Gunnthrá does not have Def/Res Smoke built into her Weapon, but even if it is, while I agree that she would be better, I would not consider her to be broken.

Olwen is in the game. That's not a good reason to give every single tome unit Dire Thunder. Cleaner is a generic weapon.

Blizzard is an excellent tome, Gunnthra is not an excellent unit to leverage it.

 

Olwen has been in the game for years, how is it NOT OBVIOUS that stat spread matters when it comes to leveraging effects?

[Ice Dragon]

33 minutes ago, XRay said:

Gunnthrá, Chills, Smokes, etc. are all already in the game, and Gunnthrá is far from being considered broken. Sure, Gunnthrá does not have Def/Res Smoke built into her Weapon, but even if it is, while I agree that she would be better, I would not consider her to be broken.

I'm also going to add that the difference between Super Clorox and Blizzard is not Def/Res Smoke. It's Seal Spectrum, Spectrum Smoke, and Atk boosts for enemy bonuses.

In the higher levels of the game's current competitive modes, enemy bonuses are pretty much ubiquitous, meaning Blizzard is losing out on ~12 damage at least compared to Ultimate Windex even before you consider the fact that Blizzard is missing out on Seal Spectrum and Spectrum Smoke (since Chilling Seal costs you your B slot and typically only affects 1 enemy per turn).

[XRay]

1 hour ago, DehNutCase said:

??? Hitting things without dying is literally how player phase units work. That's all it takes to debuff units.

Yeah, but the problem is that you cannot always take advantage of the debuffs because you do not want to overstretch yourself. Blade mages can easily get Atk+20 with Hone Atk 4 and one of the Tactics Seal, and that Atk+20 is always there regardless of the enemies' buff/debuff status.

1 hour ago, DehNutCase said:

How is using 2 units to get the same amount of damage easier than using 1 unit to get the same amount of damage? For equal investment, the Cleaner has more damage, even in the very first round because they have 2cd special access if they tank a counter.

Player Phase Cleaners still need a Dancer/Singer for buffs and extraction. You cannot just not run them unless you are masochist and want to make do with Reposition and Draw Back.

In terms of Counter-Vantage, Blades have a consistent Atk+30/35. Super Cleaner with Atk Smoke and Spd Smoke can have a higher ceiling with Atk+42 (7 from Def debuff; 28 from Super Cleaner; 7 from Hone Atk 4) or more if the enemies have buffs, but Super Cleaner can only get that high Atk number if the debuffs reach multiple enemies. This means that unlike Blades, Cleaners cannot sit at the edge of enemy range baiting only some units or else the debuffs will not reach enough enemies.

1 hour ago, DehNutCase said:

Raven mages don't counter Firesweep, the fuck are you talking about?

We were talking about consistency in damage and whether or not a skill that affects that consistency matters. I am arguing the existence of such a skill does not matter.

Dull Range and Dull Close is hardly a factor in Blade mages' damage output because it is so rare to see it on enemy teams, and even when you do, the fact that they are running a Dull instead of a more relevant B skill means that the unit is probably a lot lower on the threat level, just as how the existence of Raven mages does not mean Firesweep Bows and Brave Bows are shut down completely because those archers have allies who can handle Raven mages for them.

1 hour ago, DehNutCase said:

You do remember how Cleaner teams can run CC Vantage, right?

Yeah, and those teams fall like flies since players can Firesweep them to death, Ophelia them to death, or even use a Counter-Vantage themselves to give the AI a taste of its own medicine. If a unit is running Counter-Vantage, their Def/Res are already severely compromised compared to a regular Enemy Phase unit designed to withstand at least a single hit, so it is not exactly difficult to one round them and not give them a chance to enter Vantage range.

A team full of Counter-Vantage Cleaners is no more threatening than a team full of Surtrs.

1 hour ago, DehNutCase said:

That's not a good reason to give every single tome unit Dire Thunder. Cleaner is a generic weapon.

Brave Bow is also a generic Weapon, and it is hardly game breaking nowadays. In my opinion, with the increase in bulk, Brave tomes are no more threatening than Brave Bows; what it gains in targeting Res is balanced out by being colored.

1 hour ago, Ice Dragon said:

In the higher levels of the game's current competitive modes, enemy bonuses are pretty much ubiquitous

But the AI suck at using buffs after turn 1 unless they have GOW!Eirika since the defending player is no longer in control after the AI moves from its starting position. Damage output that is based on your own buffs is far more reliable than damage based on the foes' buff/debuffs since it is much harder to influence that.

Given the choice between Blade Dagger and Super Cleaner Dagger, I think Blade Dagger would be considered far more usable.

Edited February 16, 2019 by XRay