General Weapon Refinery discussion/speculation/creation thread

[Ice Dragon]

26 minutes ago, XRay said:

But the AI suck at using buffs after turn 1 unless they have GOW!Eirika since the defending player is no longer in control after the AI moves from its starting position. Damage output that is based on your own buffs is far more reliable than damage based on the foes' buff/debuffs since it is much harder to influence that.

Any team with Rally spam has zero trouble keeping buffs up, and if you're using a weapon that relies on enemy buffs to function (like Niu), then you're trying to keep the enemy together, which is easier than trying to split them.

[DehNutCase]

4 minutes ago, XRay said:

Yeah, but the problem is that you cannot always take advantage of the debuffs because you do not want to overstretch yourself. Blade mages can easily get Atk+20 with Hone Atk 4 and one of the Tactics Seal, and that Atk+20 is always there regardless of the enemies' buff/debuff status.

If you aren't over-stretching with -blade then you aren't overstretching with daggers.

 

Like, do you think I'm running fucking 0 move daggers with rally Atk or some shit? Cleaner users have everything -blade has and more. We even have fucking New Year Gunnthra if you want to be a giant noob about buffs and debuffs. That's one skill slot for +4 all stats and +16 damage, compared to your two skill slots. Note that she wouldn't be a performance choice---another copy of Cleaner would be better than her---but apparently you think the top players are so bad they'd need to use her just to get debuffs on people.

4 minutes ago, XRay said:

Player Phase Cleaners still need a Dancer/Singer for buffs and extraction. You cannot just not run them unless you are masochist and want to make do with Reposition and Draw Back.

I assure you, if I had 5 copies of Reinhardt who self-buffed for +6 all stats. (Which is worse than what 5 copies of cleaner can do.) I don't need dancers for jack. The reason it takes effort to run CC Reinhardt isn't because CC Reinhardt is bad, it's because the other 4 units on the team aren't (and can't be) CC Reinhardt, due to the support costs.

 

You don't need extraction if every single one of your units had perfect combat performance on both phases. Like, stop thinking these Cleaners are using firesweep bows or whatever you're used to using, they're fucking murder machines on both phases.

 

Like, my CC Reinhardt team has a savage blow pain staffer on the team, staves can't use reposition. Do you honestly think running away is my first priority when I'm using Reinhardt?

4 minutes ago, XRay said:

In terms of Counter-Vantage, Blades have a consistent Atk+30/35. Super Cleaner with Atk Smoke and Spd Smoke can have a higher ceiling with Atk+42 (7 from Def debuff; 28 from Super Cleaner; 7 from Hone Atk 4) or more if the enemies have buffs, but Super Cleaner can only get that high Atk number if the debuffs reach multiple enemies. This means that unlike Blades, Cleaners cannot sit at the edge of enemy range baiting only some units or else the debuffs will not reach enough enemies.

Do you even know how Smoke skills work? They work on both phases, with an AoE of 2. Same for dagger debuffs.

Enemies that aren't affected aren't in range to attack you unless you're bad.

Like, legitimately, auto-battle tier levels of bad. Just snipe the fucking dancer that's letting the AI do that crap. Cleaner units are indestructible on both phases as long as you don't play like a god damn chipmunk or are fighting other Cleaner teams.

4 minutes ago, XRay said:

We were talking about consistency in damage and whether or not a skill that affects that consistency matters. I am arguing the existence of such a skill does not matter.

Dull Range and Dull Close is hardly a factor in Blade mages' damage output because it is so rare to see it on enemy teams, and even when you do, the fact that they are running a Dull instead of a more relevant B skill means that the unit is probably a lot lower on the threat level, just as how the existence of Raven mages does not mean Firesweep Bows and Brave Bows are shut down completely because those archers have allies who can handle Raven mages for them.

Dude, you're not getting it.

Raven tomes don't counter Firesweep & Brave because they don't do anything to those weapons.

 

Firesweep leverages map control to exchange for chip damage (which is why Gravity is so strong as a Staff, it provides map control at the same time as it chips). This means that anything that doesn't pressure the map doesn't pressure fire sweepers, and most -raven tomes don't even ORKO firesweepers. That's not a counter, that's not even a fucking check. That's what's called being checked. Firesweeps beat raven tomes, not the fucking other way around.

The only -ravens that pressure Firesweepers are 2-range horses running ravens, and those are decidedly sub-optimal considering we have way better player phase weapons. This means that -ravens are more or less countered by Firesweeps, because teams running -ravens do worse against teams with firesweeps regardless of who's using the raven tome.

 

Brave Bows aren't countered because, again, 3 move raven tomers SUCK NADS. If you don't kill anyone on your unit turn then you're just a dead unit that doesn't know it yet, and -ravens don't kill units on their unit-turns. Their primarily EP specialists because their stat priorities rely on Atk, Def, and Res. (The stats that are amplified by triangle advantage.)

Nobody uses -ravens seriously on defense because they're not good enough to be consistent defensive threats (since if you have triangle advantage over them they're just useless), and they aren't built to be offensive threats.

 

The reason you use CC on -blade is to leverage your Atk to provide unfair levels of map control. If a unit can stand in range of every single enemy unit and end up the last one standing, the team that has that unit has perfect map-control. Conversely, if at least one unit on the enemy team can beat that unit, then you do not have that perfect map control.

That's why Dull Ranged counters -blade. CC -blade is expected to provide perfect map control because its support requirements means that it has to provide an equally large return---and my team uses 3 units to Support CC Rein: Legendary Azura, other dancer, Savage Blow Pain Staffer. If I'm using 4 unit slots on someone that 'someone' soloing the entire enemy team is the FUCKING EXPECTED OUTCOME. Which is why I don't rate CC Vantage Rein that highly despite the fact that he consistently gets 5 or 6 kills per AR map.

 

Cleaners use exactly 1 unit-slot, so their expected outcome is to do the job expected of 1 unit slot. But they do something expected from 2 unit slots. One single Cleaner does both -7 all stats (which is equivalent to Legendary Azura), and the ridiculous map control of a CC -blade user if you spec them for it. Even if you don't spec them for it, however, they still do the job of an 'ordinary' player phase unit in that they can very consistently provide one kill per unit-turn.

4 minutes ago, XRay said:

Yeah, and those teams fall like flies since players can Firesweep them to death, Ophelia them to death, or even use a Counter-Vantage themselves to give the AI a taste of its own medicine. If a unit is running Counter-Vantage, their Def/Res are already severely compromised compared to a regular Enemy Phase unit designed to withstand at least a single hit, so it is not exactly difficult to one round them and not give them a chance to enter Vantage range.

Dude, I run L&D on most of my player phase units. Fortress Def/Res is 6 def/res. Dropping an A-slot worth of stats does not suddenly turn a lineup into paper, especially when I don't need to run 6 identical units on a team.

 

Your counter-vantage guy is going to die in one hit due to cleaner bonus damage. And even if you triggered bolt trap or something to get into vantage range, there's nothing stopping me from putting a horse Cleaner with Hardy Bearing in the back of my lineup.

Further, unlike regular EP teams, the Cleaner team actually pressures fire sweep team because, guess what, their player phase is better than yours, meaning they're trying to run up and kill you rather than have you walk up and try to kill them. Similarly for Ophelia, how exactly are you killing enough of the lineup that they're not revenge killing most of yours on their phase?

This is ignoring the fact that infantry Cleaners can run Null C-Disrupt if they wanted to.

 

The most important thing, however, is that these 6 cleaner lineups not only run different sets on each individual unit, each cleaner team is also different, and require different resources to defeat.

The fact that you immediately imagined all Cleaner teams as only CC Vantage, on every fucking unit, (and, presumably, the same unit rather than leveraging different stat spreads), says a god damn lot.

4 minutes ago, XRay said:

Brave Bow is also a generic Weapon, and it is hardly game breaking nowadays. In my opinion, with the increase in bulk, Brave tomes are no more threatening than Brave Bows; what it gains in targeting Res is balanced out by being colored.

We only have 2 horse archers for a fucking reason. Brave Bow on cavalry is just as rare as Dire Thunder.

[XRay]

1 hour ago, DehNutCase said:

I assure you, if I had 5 copies of Reinhardt who self-buffed for +6 all stats. (Which is worse than what 5 copies of cleaner can do.) I don't need dancers for jack. The reason it takes effort to run CC Reinhardt isn't because CC Reinhardt is bad, it's because the other 4 units on the team aren't (and can't be) CC Reinhardt, due to the support costs.

You don't need extraction if every single one of your units had perfect combat performance on both phases. Like, stop thinking these Cleaners are using firesweep bows or whatever you're used to using, they're fucking murder machines on both phases.

Like, my CC Reinhardt team has a savage blow pain staffer on the team, staves can't use reposition. Do you honestly think running away is my first priority when I'm using Reinhardt?

1 hour ago, DehNutCase said:

Your counter-vantage guy is going to die in one hit due to cleaner bonus damage. And even if you triggered bolt trap or something to get into vantage range, there's nothing stopping me from putting a horse Cleaner with Hardy Bearing in the back of my lineup.

1 hour ago, DehNutCase said:

Do you even know how Smoke skills work? They work on both phases, with an AoE of 2. Same for dagger debuffs.

Enemies that aren't affected aren't in range to attack you unless you're bad.

But the problem is that Counter-Vantage units can still be killed with Ophelia and Firesweep units if you send them in to solo enemies. Counter-Vantage units can murder lots of units, but that does not mean they are invincible, and Cleaner-Counter-Vantage is not anymore invulnerable to that than Blade-Counter-Vantage.

1 hour ago, DehNutCase said:

The reason you use CC on -blade is to leverage your Atk to provide unfair levels of map control. If a unit can stand in range of every single enemy unit and end up the last one standing, the team that has that unit has perfect map-control. Conversely, if at least one unit on the enemy team can beat that unit, then you do not have that perfect map control.

That's why Dull Ranged counters -blade. CC -blade is expected to provide perfect map control because its support requirements means that it has to provide an equally large return---and my team uses 3 units to Support CC Rein: Legendary Azura, other dancer, Savage Blow Pain Staffer. If I'm using 4 unit slots on someone that 'someone' soloing the entire enemy team is the FUCKING EXPECTED OUTCOME. Which is why I don't rate CC Vantage Rein that highly despite the fact that he consistently gets 5 or 6 kills per AR map.

But the thing is that Dulls are not on defense teams, or at least I do not remember seeing any. It is like worrying about non-Ophelia units running Hardy Bearing, they probably exist, but the chances of encountering them are so low that it is not really worth worrying about them. The only reason I worry about Hardy Bearing at all is because Ophelia exist and she often uses it.

1 hour ago, DehNutCase said:

Dude, I run L&D on most of my player phase units. Fortress Def/Res is 6 def/res. Dropping an A-slot worth of stats does not suddenly turn a lineup into paper, especially when I don't need to run 6 identical units on a team.

It is not just the A stat. It is the whole skill kit that goes into Counter-Vantage units. Counter-Vantage units do not stand a chance against nukes when a tank needs their A and Sacred Seal slot, and sometimes B slot, to even stand a chance of surviving a hit against nukes. A Surtr that is missing either Wary Fighter or Steady Stance will be killed very quickly, and even if it has its default skill kit, it still dies in one hit against Laevatein who can be buffed to crazy levels.

1 hour ago, DehNutCase said:

Your counter-vantage guy is going to die in one hit due to cleaner bonus damage. And even if you triggered bolt trap or something to get into vantage range, there's nothing stopping me from putting a horse Cleaner with Hardy Bearing in the back of my lineup.

Further, unlike regular EP teams, the Cleaner team actually pressures fire sweep team because, guess what, their player phase is better than yours, meaning they're trying to run up and kill you rather than have you walk up and try to kill them. Similarly for Ophelia, how exactly are you killing enough of the lineup that they're not revenge killing most of yours on their phase?

This is ignoring the fact that infantry Cleaners can run Null C-Disrupt if they wanted to.

The most important thing, however, is that these 6 cleaner lineups not only run different sets on each individual unit, each cleaner team is also different, and require different resources to defeat.

My BH!Lyn is not my only nuke. I usually run Laevatein or NS!F!Corrin as my secondary nuke depending on the enemy team. A Super Cleaner cannot counter both Firesweep and Blade nukes at the same time.

1 hour ago, DehNutCase said:

We only have 2 horse archers for a fucking reason. Brave Bow on cavalry is just as rare as Dire Thunder.

And they are hardly a threat when there are plenty of options to tank them or simply hit them first before they hit you.

Edited February 16, 2019 by XRay

[Corrobin]

Guys. Chill.

[XRay]

14 minutes ago, Corrobin said:

Guys. Chill.

I think we are chill. We are not yelling or anything. I will PM @DehNutCase and move the discussion off of here if you want.

[Corrobin]

Yes, thank you, that would be perfect.

[Fabulously Olivier]

So here is my thoughts on upgrading pretty much every colorless dagger (arguably the weakest overall weapon category).

 

Sothe

Peshkatz

Refine - When unit is within 2 spaces of support partner, unit gains Atk/Spd/Def/Res +4 during combat.

 

Saizo

Flame Shuriken

Base debuffs - Atk/Spd/Def/Res -4 to target and foes within 2 spaces.

Base effect - Wrath 3

Refine - If unit's hp is < 80% at start of combat, unit can counter attack regardless of range and gains Atk/Spd/Def/Res +4 during combat.

 

Kaze

Glacial Shuriken

Base Buffs/Debuffs - Def/Res - 7 to target and foes within 2 spaces.

Base Effect - Accelerate Special Trigger (Cooldown Count -1).

Refine - Glacial Pulse 3 (At start of turn 1, slow special trigger for all foes with res < unit's res. Special cooldown +1 to affected foes.)

 

Kagero

Wind Shuriken

Base Debuffs - Def/Res -7 to target and foes within 2 spaces 

Base Effect - Effective against Flying foes.

Refine - Accelerate special trigger (cooldown count -1).

 

Gaius

Gaius's Dagger

Base Debuffs - Def/Res -7 to target and foes within 2 spaces.

Base Effect - Every 3 turns, unit consumes candy which recovers 10 health and reduces special cooldown by 1.

Refine - +10 Damage on Special Trigger

 

Jakob

Sable Servant

Base Debuffs - Atk/Spd/Def/Res -4 to foes within 2 spaces.

Base Effect - Atk/Spd/Def/Res +4 to allies within 2 spaces.

Refine - Underdog (If unit's atk/spd/def/res is lower than foe's atk/spd/def/res during combat, unit gains bonuses to each stat equivalent to 80% of difference for each stat of unit that is lower than that of foe. Bonuses are calculated individually for each stat and do not factor in field buffs or debuffs on unit or foe. Maximum of +7 to each stat.)

 

Legault

Storm's Eye

Base Debuff - Def/Res -7 to target and foes within 2 spaces.

Base Effect - The Cleaner 

Refine - Flashing Blade 3

 

Matthew 

Leila's Dagger 

Base Debuff - Atk/Spd/Def/Res -4 to target and foes within 2 spaces.

Base Effect - Accelerate Special Trigger (Cooldown Count -1)

Refine - If an ally within 2 spaces is below 75% health when unit enters combat, unit can counter-attack regardless of range and gains atk/spd/def/res +4 during combat.

[XRay]

5 hours ago, Etheus said:

Sothe

Peshkatz

Refine - When unit is within 2 spaces of support partner, unit gains Atk/Spd/Def/Res +4 during combat.

Player Phase units ideally do not want any positioning requirements. I think Swift Sparrow would be better, or if the buffs were +6 or something to make the positioning requirements more worth it. While 2-space-away-requirement is not as bad as adjacent-requirement, it is still a big enough hassle in my opinion that I think most players would just go with the Spd Refinement instead.

5 hours ago, Etheus said:

Saizo

Flame Shuriken

Base debuffs - Atk/Spd/Def/Res -4 to target and foes within 2 spaces.

Base effect - Wrath 3

Refine - If unit's hp is < 80% at start of combat, unit can counter attack regardless of range and gains Atk/Spd/Def/Res +4 during combat.

It feels a bit lacking as an Enemy Phase Weapon. Close Counter is nice, but requiring an HP maximum does not really mesh well with Enemy Phase combat since you want full HP to tank hits.

As a Player Phase Weapon, it is fine as is.

5 hours ago, Etheus said:

Kagero

Wind Shuriken

Base Debuffs - Def/Res -7 to target and foes within 2 spaces 

Base Effect - Effective against Flying foes.

Refine - Accelerate special trigger (cooldown count -1).

I think infantry effectiveness is better than flier effectiveness. Fliers are generally not that bulky compared to infantry, so dealing effective damage against them is generally unnecessary in my opinion.

[Fabulously Olivier]

13 minutes ago, XRay said:

Player Phase units ideally do not want any positioning requirements. I think Swift Sparrow would be better, or if the buffs were +6 or something to make the positioning requirements more worth it. While 2-space-away-requirement is not as bad as adjacent-requirement, it is still a big enough hassle in my opinion that I think most players would just go with the Spd Refinement instead.

It feels a bit lacking as an Enemy Phase Weapon. Close Counter is nice, but requiring an HP maximum does not really mesh well with Enemy Phase combat since you want full HP to tank hits.

As a Player Phase Weapon, it is fine as is.

I think infantry effectiveness is better than flier effectiveness. Fliers are generally not that bulky compared to infantry, so dealing effective damage against them is generally unnecessary in my opinion.

Just a note on Kagero. Infantry effectiveness is so strong that it is the reason that Poison Dagger+ is not only not refinable, but locked to a measly 5 Mt. There is absolutely no way in Hell that Kagero would get a refinable Prf weapon with infantry effectiveness, and if she did, it would be locked to a very low might, and likely carry a weak refine bonus.

Edited February 20, 2019 by Etheus

[XRay]

2 minutes ago, Etheus said:

Just a note on Kagero. Infantry effectiveness is so strong that it is the reason that Poison Dagger+ is not only not refinable, but locked to a measly 5 Mt. There is absolutely no way in Hell that Kagero would get a refinable Prf weapon with infantry effectiveness.

With the increase in bulk from Book III infantry, I think infantry effectiveness is perfectly fine.

[Fabulously Olivier]

3 minutes ago, XRay said:

With the increase in bulk from Book III infantry, I think infantry effectiveness is perfectly fine.

That's great and all, but it is a small comfort to the current majority of the game's roster who are pre-Book III infantry, and only get a measly additional +1 to all stats from Dragonflowers to show for it.

[XRay]

5 minutes ago, Etheus said:

That's great and all, but it is a small comfort to the current majority of the game's roster who are pre-Book III infantry, and only get a measly additional +1 to all stats from Dragonflowers to show for it.

Book I and Book II infantry can get +2 to all stats via Dragonflowers. Everyone else gets +1.

It is no different from armor effective Weapons in my opinion. Infantry units are also a lot less dominant in the Aether Raids meta, where it is mostly armor units or cavalry units. Arena's meta is a joke at this point due to its skewed scoring system, and the infantry units you see there are so underwhelming that having an effective damage against them is not going to make them any easier to face since they are already pulverized with Blade nukes or picked off with Firesweep nukes.

[Ice Dragon]

1 minute ago, XRay said:

Book I and Book II infantry can get +2 to all stats via Dragonflowers. Everyone else gets +1.

Relative to Gen 3 infantry, Gen 1 and Gen 2 infantry get only +1 to all stats from Dragonflowers.

Also, the "correct" terminology is "Gen 3" and not "Book 3". Nailah is a Gen 2 unit released during Book 3. Mia is a Gen 2 unit released during Book 1.

[FoxyGrandpa]

With Dragonbind being announced as Legendary Roy's prf, I think there is a possibility for regular Roy to get it down the line as well, although it still is a bit shaky given that they have not given Marth Exalted Falchion or Brave Lyn Swift Mulagirr.

Now, I think that if Roy did get dragonbind, then it would be a generally inferior weapon compared to Binding Blade, but it could see some pretty solid use on the character for PVE content. Unlike most other sword DC units, Roy's Res is actually pretty decent, so he can use that to combat mages a bit better. His def is on the ehhh side however, but a super boon and skills in the Seal-Slot can boost it up to pretty solid levels (A -hp +def Roy is on par with a neutral Fjorm statwise). Being easy to merge and having dragon effectiveness are also nice boons over his competition.

Potential build (just swap Binding Blade with Dragonbind)

Edited February 26, 2019 by FoxyGrandpa

[Zapp Branniglenn]

Whatever Sophia's getting, +Atk/-Spd better still be optimal, since I finally pulled that Boon/Bane the other day. Also hooray for Merric and Linde having even more personal weapon options?

[Sasori]

Thats odd. I was almost certain that Sophia would be getting the apocalypse. She was the most likely target with Niime not being likely to make it in and with her being more special then Raigh.

And I didn’t expect that i’d get the chance to refine Merric’s weapon a third time.

[Garlyle]

Curious about the weapons Klein and Sophia is going to get.

Sophia needs something to fix her abysmal speed, everything else should be fine. Ping me if you have any idea what her weapon's double effect will be, she only had a 13 Mt weapon without effect.

Klein's stats are nothing really outstanding, an 11 Mt Brave Bow would be cool with effect. Although not sure what path they are going to take, because he comes with PP and EP skills in his set - they should go with player phase build something.

[Diovani Bressan]

For Sophia, I was thinking something like Myrrh's Great Flame or Leo's Brynhildr, which prevents foe's counterattack if units's Def is higher that foe's Def, so we could fix her problem of being doubled, but then I checked Sophia's stats and they aren't good. I also checked the Dark Magic tomes in Binding Blade, and there aren't much options for her either. In Binding Blade, we have Nosferatu (Restores HP equal to damage done to enemy), Eclipse (Reduces enemy's HP to 1) and Apocalypse (Grants +5 Magic, Effective against Wyvern Riders, Wyvern Lords, and Manaketes). I don't have any other idea for her.

For Klein, maybe a dual phase Brave Bow? And for refinement a simple Death Blow 3? Or maybe IntSys change his weapon completly, like how they did with Tailtiu, which changed from a Blade Tome to a Tome with Wrath. His stats are not that great either. I mean, 31 Atk is quite low, and he has a decent 33 Spd, but 20 Def and 24 Res aren't that great.

Waiting for Gordin's exclusive weapon, which I want so much to be called "Five Points.

Edited March 1, 2019 by Diovani Bressan

[Jingle Jangle]

For this month refines I'm most interested in everyone except Klein.Hoping none of them get bond tier refines. I wish to have a better iv for Soyna other than +def -hp.

[Fabulously Olivier]

Only interested in Klein and maybe Merric this month.

 

Here's hoping Klein is treated as well as Niles was.

[redlight]

38 minutes ago, Etheus said:

Here's hoping Klein is treated as well as Niles was.

Niles' was rather... It's okay, but I honestly don't see non-fans being interested ever in using him. That Light Brand effect might as well not exist most of the time. As for Flashing Blade and CD-1, it's okay I guess. It's rather shitty that def debuffs are detrimental to his weapon, but they're better that Light Brand in general. Ice came up with CD-1, Wo Dao and Bold Fighter being in his weapon. It wouldn't make him the best archer, but it'd make him the only archer among the 3-4 star pool that doesn't use a brave bow worth using.

My guess is they'll either give Klein a brave bow or a firesweep bow.

[Fabulously Olivier]

Klein's stat line is so awkward. He has high enough speed and low enough attack to not want a brave bow. But on the flip side, he also has low to middling defenses, so doesn't exactly work excellently with a more traditional slaying bow.

 

A Firesweep Bow with L&D would be the best option to fix his stat line. But I also doubt they'd go that route.

[ILikeKirbys]

Hey, Sophia's finally getting a refinement! That +ATK/-SPD copy I have has been waiting for this... but she'll have to wait a little longer since my next 66,000 feathers or so are being reserved for Roy to +10 him, and also I don't think I have the Dew ready for any of these.

Also nice to see the Dark tomes get refines, since they could use extra effects these days. Makes me hopeful that Armads will get a refinement eventually.

So, guesses as to what the current batch'll wind up as:

Sonya - Dark Excalibur [Refine] | MT 14
Deals +10 damage when Special triggers.
Skill-Refine: At start of Turn 1, grants Special Cooldown count -2.

Starting with the 5-Star I've managed to pull, Sonya gets a refineable Wo Dao tome with optional Quickened Pulse 2. It's fairly good for both herself and Merric, though Sonya probably appreciates it more since she gets instant Moonbow on her first combat with her default skillset while Merric needs SI to do the same.

Delthea - Dark Aura [Refine] | MT 14
At start of turn, grants ATK +6 to Sword, Lance, Axe, Dragonstone, and Beast damage allies for 1 turn.
Skill-Refine: When HP > 50% at start of combat, if foe's attack would defeat unit, unit survives with 1 HP.

Moving on to the other Dark tome, Delthea's Dark Aura gains the Prayer Ring she comes with in Echoes, which allows the tome to have Tyrfing-style Miracle on it, allowing Delthea (or Linde, who can also use this weapon) to take a physical hit and live, which probably makes them better.

Sophia - Eternal Tome | MT 14
During combat, grants bonus DEF/RES equal to number of allies within 2 spaces x2. (Maximum bonus of +6.)
Skill-Refine: When Special is charged, grants ATK/SPD/DEF/RES +3 during combat, and unit can counterattack regardless of foe's distance.

Moving from Dark tomes to Dark mage, Sophia gets a Glittering Breath tome (presumably Fae taught her the secret of getting tankier when you're near your friends after she got back from Christmas Winter Seasonal Banner with the Renais twins) with the option to gain Golden Dagger's refinement effect except with Close Counter, allowing Sophia to use Close Counter without sacrificing her A Skill as long as she can keep her Special charged (which, well, Special Spiral, Infantry Pulse, Quickened Pulse and Velouria exist, so it shouldn't be too difficult to keep one stocked at all times). This one's pretty unlikely, I'll admit, but I think it would be good for her.

Klein - Argent Bow | MT 9
Effective against Flying foes. Inflicts SPD -5. Unit attacks twice when initiating combat.
Skill-Refine: Unit attacks twice when foe initiates combat.

Moving from an unlikely refine to the refine that took the longest to nail down, Klein gets a stronger Brave Bow with the option to have a dual-phase Brave Bow. I'm not sure if they'd go with Enemy Phase Brave as a refinement for any weapon that didn't start with it, but it'd make his weapon work well with both of his passives (gets an ATK buff from Death Blow on Player Phase, gets a guaranteed quad via Quick Riposte on Enemy Phase), so I'd be alright with it happening.

So, are any of these even somewhat likely to happen? Or be good, if they did?

[Stroud]

19 minutes ago, ILikeKirbys said:

Sonya - Dark Excalibur [Refine] | MT 14
Deals +10 damage when Special triggers.
Skill-Refine: At start of Turn 1, grants Special Cooldown count -2.

Starting with the 5-Star I've managed to pull, Sonya gets a refineable Wo Dao tome with optional Quickened Pulse 2. It's fairly good for both herself and Merric, though Sonya probably appreciates it more since she gets instant Moonbow on her first combat with her default skillset while Merric needs SI to do the same.

Would agree with this, not only for Moonbow, she is one of the better AoE mages. So with that she could be used more easily on AR defense teams.
The only downside for her would be, compared to Cooldown -1 overall she would need heavyblade to use it any turn, which is why she cannot use Hardy Bearings and She still needs her A slot a bit. I hope they surprise us a bit here, but I kind of expect her refine to be special cooldown related anyway.

[Fabulously Olivier]

A dual phase Brave Bow would be amazing on Gordin. On Klein, however, it just wouldn't solve his issues.