JimmyBeans

How important is abstinence?

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So I don't usually do these but this topic has been weighing on my mind lately, and I don't want to start something I just want to see some outside opinions on the subject.

One day I was talking with my friend who has a child outside of wedlock, and we were discussing morals for some reason and I was told that my opinion on abstinence didn't count because I'm just a church dude. So I thought to myself "am I really just abstinent because my religion says to be?" So I thought about it and this the answer I came up with for myself.

If I were wanting a child to be born into this world, I don't think it would be fair to have him/her be born into a family that is unstable, and not even committed permanently. Growing up is a race, and even risking having a child outside of marriage could make them start really behind in that race. Religions don't just make up rules just for rules (most of the time), there is a reason for every rule and guideline, we just have to see and not follow blindly and figure it out if we agree with it or not.

Anyway that's my personal thought on it, but my opinion is shot down a lot, and I'm not sure what I'm missing. So tell me what you think, and if you think it's fine outside of marriage please tell me why, because maybe I'm just ignorant.

Again I don't want to start any crap, I just honestly am not to informed about this, and I want to see if my reasoning is flawed or not.

 

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I don't believe in marriage. I think it's nothing more an archaic practice and a waste of money. You don't need government papers to say you're in love with a person. It's all about trust. If you can't trust your partner enough and feel the need to lock them down with vows to feel better about their loyalty, why bother? If things go sour and they still can't be worked out, you don't need to pay hundreds of dollars to "break up", you just do it.

A child doesn't need to be born under a married couple to live happily. It's not a competition for how to raise a child. Just do your job as a parent to raise the little one and be responsible regardless of whatever situation you have with the partner. You can have your religious beliefs but they are only beliefs. People have different ways of going about their lives. You don't need to be married to live permanently with someone and work together to raise a child. You can be committed with a person without marriage, just trust each other. How hard is that?

Edited by Ronnie

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I don't think that's inherently immoral; it's just impractical. A life isn't less valuable because they have a single parent even without the best home life, and giving birth isn't immoral.

Regardless, abstinence isn't necessarily moral. Pregnancy out of wedlock is often unintended and occurs because people do not practice safe sex with very few exceptions. Sex before marriage is an inevitability because human beings are naturally pretty horny, and abstinence-based sex education is harmful in lieu of sex education about safe sex.

 

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2 minutes ago, Ronnie said:

I don't believe in marriage. I think it's nothing more an archaic practice originating from financial gain. You don't need government papers to say you're in love with a person. It's all about trust. If you can't trust your partner enough and feel the need to lock them down with vows to feel better about their loyalty, why bother? If thing go sour and they still can't be worked out, you don't need to pay hundreds of dollars to "break up", you just do it.

A child doesn't need to be born under a married couple to live happily. It's not a competition for how to raise a child. Just do your job as a parent to raise the little one and be responsible regardless of whatever situation you have with the partner. You can have your religious beliefs but they are only beliefs. People have different ways of going about their lives. You don't need to be married to live permanently with someone and work together to raise a child. You can be committed with a person without marriage, just trust each other. How hard is that?

Trust eh? I like that, but I see one issue that I can't get out of my head about it... How do you know the other trusts you? Trust is something that is earned correct? Marriage is a bond of commitment between two people, so wouldn't the best way to establish that trust is to just get married? I mean divorce rates are way to high, but i'm sure the whole "guy leaves after child is born" deal is really high too, not to mention your average break up. I still see your point though, and if two people live together and are not married, but have a stable income and all that jazz marriage wouldn't really accomplish much. On the other hand I do agree that marriage is not required to have a happy child, but that trust brought by marriage can reduce the possibility of heartache, and can help determine better if the relationship will work out. I would want the best for my child, so I would want to prepare a life that a child could have the greatest chance of success in, and I think a married family could help me be sure the relationship is real.

1 minute ago, Lord Raven said:

I don't think that's inherently immoral; it's just impractical. A life isn't less valuable because they have a single parent even without the best home life, and giving birth isn't immoral.

Regardless, abstinence isn't necessarily moral. Pregnancy out of wedlock is often unintended and occurs because people do not practice safe sex with very few exceptions. Sex before marriage is an inevitability because human beings are naturally pretty horny, and abstinence-based sex education is harmful in lieu of sex education about safe sex.

 

I agree. A life isn't less valuable because of their circumstances, but is it fair to make life harder than it could of been for a kid because you were horny? But I guess that makes sense, I guess most people wouldn't go out of their way to get pregnant when they can't afford it, but that adds points to the abstinent side doesn't it. The risk brings more trouble than it might be worth, although i'm a virgin so I can't really say, i can only guess.

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I don't think it's important at all. It all depends on your own personal priorities.

If it's a personal priority, or it's something you do for religious reasons, then go for it, but I don't think there's inherently anything wrong with sex out of wedlock, or even having kids out of wedlock. Similarly, I don't think an unmarried couple that loves and supports each other and has a kid is less stable than a rocky marriage. It's all about the couple. It would probably be accurate to assume that married couples are generally more stable than unmarried ones, but that's not 100% the case.

Marriage is actually a social construct. If a couple doesn't believe in marriage(Somebody like @Ronnie for example), then I don't think it's really right to say that they're not responsible or capable of raising a child fairly. A wedding band isn't going to suddenly make two people who already loved each other love each other more, and it usually doesn't save relationships that were doomed from the start(A good reason so many marriages end in divorce. People either rush into it, or they think  it will salvage a crumbling relationship).

So yeah, if you're worried about being ignorant, then just assume that on issues like these that there are people out there who don't necessarily agree with you, and try to understand that they're also not necessarily wrong. I don't think you're wrong for believing in abstinence until you're married, it's just not what I believe.

Edited by Slumber

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3 minutes ago, Slumber said:

I don't think it's important at all. It all depends on your own personal priorities.

If it's a personal priority, or it's something you do for religious reasons, then go for it, but I don't think there's inherently anything wrong with sex out of wedlock, or even having kids out of wedlock. Similarly, I don't think an unmarried couple that loves each other and has a kid is less stable than a rocky marriage. It's all about the couple. It would probably be accurate to assume that married couples are generally more stable than unmarried ones, but that's not 100% the case.

Marriage is actually a social construct. If a couple doesn't believe in marriage(Somebody like @Ronnie for example), then I don't think it's really right to say that they're not responsible or capable of raising a child fairly.

I agree. I never thought about that actually, and I would hate to force marriage of everyone. But in my case, I think the best benefit to marriage  is that it shows commitment, if someone is willing to marry you than to me it proves that they really want to spend their life with you, it expresses more than words can I think. While I'm not saying that defines the the success of the family, it can be a great benefit. 

I also wasn't thinking about rocky marriages, which you are absolutely right on. A speaker at my church said one time their is no such things as soul mates, there is no perfect person out there that is destined to be your lover, but the perfect relationship is something you build with someone, someone that your willing to build it with and someone who is willing to do the same. Sure that sounds less romantic but I think it's probably true.

So again marriage could be that "proof" that the person is willing to build that relationship with you. Of course like you and others have said, if two people already trust and love each other, who needs marriage! But I think it should be seen as a possibility for most people when the time comes to settle down, especially with someone like me who is always skeptical

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As someone who wishes a lot of times that my mom had raised me by herself instead of staying with and marrying my dad because he is an emotional abuser, I don't think having both parents in a kid's life is always the best thing in the world.  I agree with what Lord Raven said as well, practicing safe sex is the best option.  I have health problems so I decided long ago not to have a kid because there is a risk I could give my problems to a kid.  I have never been in a relationship, since I have not met anyone who would date me, but if I did start dating I would go on the pill very quickly just to be safe.  It would take a very very special person for me to marry, after seeing my parents marriage it has made me not want to do it. 

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9 minutes ago, JimmyBeans said:

I agree. I never thought about that actually, and I would hate to force marriage of everyone. But in my case, I think the best benefit to marriage  is that it shows commitment, if someone is willing to marry you than to me it proves that they really want to spend their life with you, it expresses more than words can I think. While I'm not saying that defines the the success of the family, it can be a great benefit. 

I also wasn't thinking about rocky marriages, which you are absolutely right on. A speaker at my church said one time their is no such things as soul mates, there is no perfect person out there that is destined to be your lover, but the perfect relationship is something you build with someone, someone that your willing to build it with and someone who is willing to do the same. Sure that sounds less romantic but I think it's probably true.

So again marriage could be that "proof" that the person is willing to build that relationship with you. Of course like you and others have said, if two people already trust and love each other, who needs marriage! But I think it should be seen as a possibility for most people when the time comes to settle down, especially with someone like me who is always skeptical

You're right that marriage shows commitment, but I think that's also where the bit about "not believing in marriage" comes in. My sister and her boyfriend have been dating for going on 5 years now, but they have no real intentions of getting married, simply because they're not huge fans of the religious aspects, the costs, or the ceremony. However, they did apply for domestic partnership, which bypasses all of the stuff they don't want to deal with, while also cementing a commitment and getting similar benefits of a marriage. And I'm sure they'd make great parents if they decided to have kids.

Of course I think there are people who don't want to get married purely because they don't want to solidify their commitment to one another, and those people probably shouldn't have kids.

Edited by Slumber

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19 minutes ago, Slumber said:

You're right that marriage shows commitment, but I think that's also where the bit about "not believing in marriage" comes in. My sister and her boyfriend have been dating for going on 5 years now, but they have no real intentions of getting married, simply because they're not huge fans of the religious aspects, the costs, or the ceremony. However, they did apply for domestic partnership, which bypasses all of the stuff they don't want to deal with, while also cementing a commitment and getting similar benefits of a marriage. And I'm sure they'd make great parents if they decided to have kids.

Of course I think there are people who don't want to get married purely because they don't want to solidify their commitment to one another, and those people probably shouldn't have kids.

You make a great point. But it seems I have nothing to counter that with, I guess I just think you're correct. It's a really complicated thing, and we should all just make sure we are competent enough to make that kind of decision, or if you need to make that decision at all. So the couple should just understand each other, and I guess it just comes naturally. So in short.... I agree

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1 minute ago, JimmyBeans said:

You make a great point. But it seems I have nothing to counter that with, I guess I just think you're correct. It's a really complicated thing, and we should all just make sure we are competent enough to make that kind of decision, or if you need to make that decision at all. So the couple should just understand each other, and I guess it just comes naturally. So in short.... I agree

Again, I don't think you're wrong for having convictions about abstinence on moral grounds or religious grounds.

It's just that if you're worried about feeling ignorant on things like these, it helps to try to understand the other side. So I hope I helped with that a bit.

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11 minutes ago, Slumber said:

Again, I don't think you're wrong for having convictions about abstinence on moral grounds or religious grounds.

It's just that if you're worried about feeling ignorant on things like these, it helps to try to understand the other side. So I hope I helped with that a bit.

It did. I appreciate the insight

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I don't consider abstinence a big deal. Having sex out of wedlock is fairly common, but we shouldn't pressure those who want to wait til marriage. Saving til marriage is cool too- it all depends on the person. Losing your virginity should be done on your own time, and if you're not mentally ready, then don't do it.

Now for the child aspect- I would say get married, but mainly for economical reasons.You don't need to get married to know you and your significant other love each other, but getting married for tax reasons/financial support may help with child raising. If one partner dies on the job and they're not married, their significant other will not receive any form of monetary compensation. Regardless if both parents are in the picture or not, ensuring the child's happiness is the priority. As long as the child is happy and is encourage to try many things to become a well-rounded individual. Plus, it's more of a social norm. Although I don't consider marriage a requirement to making a child happy, it is very much the norm for a child to have both of their parents married, and if the child ever talked about this, they may get teased by other classmates (depends on the area they live in as well). Not to mention the child's extended family would probably raise their eyebrows.

Although I think it was rude of your friend to say your opinion was rude because you were religious. It sounds like a form of gatekeeping; you don't need to have sex to have an opinion on abstinence.

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Your friend was pretty rude.  That's hardly a reason to discount an opinion!

Much as I'd like to have safe sex, I can't do my part (birth control). That's why I'm going to wait until both parties are ready, whenever that may be.

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Hello.

So fellow abstinence... practicioner? Is that the word? Eh. Abstinence person here.

While I am religious for me it's never been as much about religion as it is a general feeling of ".... no" whenever it's brought up. To me it is a very valid way of thinking and your friend was very rude to say your opinion doesn't matter. There are very very few places where opinion doesn't matter and this is very much a matter of opinion. To be fair I absolutely do not want kids so that may play a part? I don't think so but I don't think in my case that they're mutually exclusive.

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I personally don't see the appeal; just use condoms if you're that worried about unplanned  pregnancy. But whatever floats your boat. It's one of those things where as long as you're doing what feels right to you and aren't forcing your choices or your judgements on anyone else--it's all good.

Edited by Shoblongoo

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There are several types of birth control out there. There's no reason to not have sex, unless you don't want to for whatever reason.

Just do what you want to do, as long as you don't hurt anyone with careless actions.

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I've personally always went by a rule of "if I wouldn't want her to be mother my child if something were to happen to me, it's not happening." So basically my argument is, if not marriage. I have a good friend who was raised by a single mother. I cannot describe how much it cost him in life. Not because she was a bad parent, but because of the instability.
It may have made him what he is, but still suffers from those decisions.

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I think this conversation is largely missing the fact that not all sex is had with the intent of reproduction (both in terms of LGBT+ relationships and in heterosexuals who want to have sex without having a baby). What happens between two enthusiastically consenting adults is really their own business and certainly isn't immortal. Abstinence is a personal decision and it is completely okay for an individual to be abstinent and to look for abstinence in a partner. What is not completely okay is for people to be rude and judgemental and start throwing out name callings and talk about "you're immoral!" (And this goes both ways. Abstinent people are often looked down as prudes who "can't get laid". This isn't a one way problem.)

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I'm most certainly focusing on the completely wrong thing here, but I find the question of the thread to be a bit of a misnomer (for want of a better word). How important abstincence is depends entirely on what metric you use to grade its importance. It's like asking how important is  yoga or juggling? It's as important or as irrelvant as anyone choses it to be in their lives (though I suppose you could attach a monetary importance to abstinence as you do certainly save money on like condoms and child support). The real question should be "What are people's opinion on abstinence?". But I gather most people are aware of that since that's precisely the thing people are talking about, so I'm sort of just wasting my own time with this comment.

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To the other question...I practiced family law for a bout 2 years. That's divorce, custody, child support, domestic violence, and removal of children from abusive and neglectful homes. I saw time and again how the lives of all parties involved were fucked up by people who were completely unprepared to be parents making and keeping babies. You don't need to be married--there's some married couples out there who also happen to be incredibly bad parents. But you need to be financially ready. You need to be at a level of maturity where you're ready to live for another person and make their needs your top priority--not dating, not partying, not sex and drugs. And you need a support system. If not your partner, then at the very least grandparents or aunts and uncles or extended family.

Edited by Shoblongoo

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7 hours ago, Shoblongoo said:

I personally don't see the appeal; just use condoms if you're that worried about unplanned  pregnancy. But whatever floats your boat. It's one of those things where as long as you're doing what feels right to you and aren't forcing your choices or your judgements on anyone else--it's all good.

So, imagine this (don't do it, please): You're cutting chili peppers. Suddenly, a drop of sweat gets into your eye.  You instinctively rub your eyes.

That burning sensation is akin to what petroleum jelly does to me.  It was one degree down from the sensation of bile in a place where bile doesn't belong.

7 hours ago, Raven said:

There are several types of birth control out there.

Last birth control I was on killed my emotions, to the point where suicide looked attractive.  No thank you.

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Because I am a Christian, I think the premarital sex is wrong, because the parents may not be ready to have a child before marriage, so if you want to have children, then people should wait when they are married and ready to have a child to avoid being a bad parent, in fact what I said has been told in my family for many generations, going back to the 1770s.

Edited by John Denver Fan

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35 minutes ago, eclipse said:

So, imagine this (don't do it, please): You're cutting chili peppers. Suddenly, a drop of sweat gets into your eye.  You instinctively rub your eyes.

That burning sensation is akin to what petroleum jelly does to me.  It was one degree down from the sensation of bile in a place where bile doesn't belong.

Last birth control I was on killed my emotions, to the point where suicide looked attractive.  No thank you.

Man, that's just shit bad luck on two counts. My sympathies go out to you.

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@SB. wasn't this one of your characters? did she do anything relevant?

this thread boutta be solved bois

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20 minutes ago, Terrador said:

(snip)

You sure you got the right thread?

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