Alice in Brexitland Mafia - Game Over

[WeaponsofMassConstruction]

5 minutes ago, BBM said:

weapons what do you think of prims's vote against you?

your vote is good imo. tbh though more than any of Refa's specific posts or votes what kind of bothers me is just that his play/tone feels a bit lazy.

thanks! I think Prims's vote was reasonable cause it was definitely in my scum meta to avoid discussion especially day 1.

[Eurykins]

I am... attempting to utilize Makaze's ISO reader thing, and while it's working fine, I'm hoping the quoting/linking thing will work as well as I remember being able to do when I actually played Mafia. 

Propeller Knight

6 hours ago, Propeller Knight said:

considering this game was advertised as rolemad I'm not surprised at weird ass roles like BBM's but if scum has an extra kill would that mean there likely isn't a ITP? also EVERY townie having a role means that scum needs some kind of advantage so it makes sense. 

I think the bolded statement is something that isn't necessarily true, in a sense. Since it's not uncommon for both scum and town roles to be Goons/Vanillas, having them as actual roles in a rolemad mafia would inadvertently assist in counter-balancing a game without requiring a strong-arming of the scum side to give them a higher advantage. 

This is especially true if BBM's role is legit- in that it's completely garbage due to the lack of solid information actually given. One could say that a simple Numbers role would've offered more insight than his claimed role, since we'd actually have something to know for facts. 

6 hours ago, Propeller Knight said:

FUCK

##unvote
##vote: arcanite

my mom put me in a really bad mood i have to go

The prior post noted that you vote swapped due to Refa's post/vote against Arcanite. However, this feels extremely easy- does the fact that Refa misread part of the what Arcanite actually said still warrant support on the Arcanite vote? Would like to hear more thoughts on the vote above.

Refa

6 hours ago, Refa said:

What bothers me more is that nothing BBM said confirmed that three townies would die upon a D1 mislynch.  It's either a bad assumption or scum.

##Unvote

##Vote: Arcanite

It makes sense if it was BBM's fakeclaim.  I don't think he'd make up being informed, especially 20 minutes into the day phase.  I didn't really think of how BBM would react poorly honestly, but I can see Scum!BBM being more self conscious.

Shinori has already covered the fact that the italicized was bad/poor in terms of misrep and such.

Also, what is the actual risk of someone faking being informed early in a day phase, when he basically gave out zero real information with his fakeclaim? All that was stated from BBM was the plausibility of a kill occurring at the end of the day phase, but nothing to validate or actually confirm said information, even from/by the mods themselves. What risk is there of being CC'd when there's no way anyone could?

6 hours ago, Refa said:

Voting someone purely for an ED1 claim is dumb; it just leads to a read that can't progress.  BBM himself needs to be scummy for me to vote him.  However, if you think my case is bad in a scummy way, why aren't you voting me?

What? Is pressure voting for responses no longer a thing in Mafia games? I don't recall voting having to be purely utilized for purely scum reads- seems pretty odd coming from you, Refa.

5 hours ago, Refa said:

Arcanite has never played scum before, so it reads as a botched attempt at blending in (especially considering the post doesn't contribute otherwise).  I thought she was sure that three townies would die, which read as scummy because how would Town!Arcanite be confident in that?  I did misread how confident Arcanite was, so I don't think the "three townies might die" thing is scummy anymore.  I still think the post reads as a botched attempt at blending in, and nothing else has bothered me so far.

While I think the "interesting twist" comment in Arcanite's post did seem odd, I do not see it as "blending in". For one, would scum!Arcanite, new or not, really waffle or risk commenting on potential townie fatalities just for the sake of conversation? Seems moreso a generic of a comment post, much like your #60 "lol" post, Refa, so if anything- pot meet kettle with this notion. 

@Refa: What do you think of Shinori, Prims, and the rest of the players who've already posted a fair amount so far? For as many posts are in your ISO, there's a great deal of tunneling on Arcanite and very little else outside of fluffy comments regarding BBM's claim.

Prims

6 hours ago, Prims said:

Via I am glad you like my observation but it is unnerving to me that you're using it as a vote pivot without really factoring it into your general reads despite apparently agreeing (eg you don't talk about how this compares to what you have on Shinori). It looks like a weird form of buddying.

 

6 hours ago, Prims said:

##Unvote
##Vote: Arcanite

Works for me. I don't really find Shinori scummy as I think he was trying to move the game along / look into his own suspicions so I can't fault him for not offering a better alternative to role speculation.

Want Weapons to post again though! The "eh" sounded indifferent to me and obligatory RVS wagon hop + disappearing act seems like the easiest way for scum!Weapons to start the game.

 

6 hours ago, Prims said:

Not really fond of this post either. It doesn't really contribute anything (so like, why make it) but also posting "hmmm what if we mislynch and three townies die! that would sure be funny!" rubs me the wrong way on a gut level.

Quotes got a bit shuffled up in the multiquoting, sorry. 

Question regarding your vote though @Prims: It was stated above that Via unnerved you (in what could've been considered a buddying attempt), but also you gut-read Arcanite negatively. Whose actual actions/words strike the worse tone though, and why? Was the vote on Arcanite more prompted by the fact that Refa was likewise rallying behind it as well, which initially painted Arcanite worse than what was actually noted?

Arcanite

7 hours ago, Arcanite said:

so 3 townies might die first day if we mislynch then?

That certainly puts an interesting twist on things...

Interesting howso? What were you considering when you were posting, considering the situation of the aforementioned sentence? I don't think it was a bad thing to want to get a ball rolling ED1, but I'm more interested in the mindset behind this post when making it.

4 hours ago, Arcanite said:

##Unvote

##Vote: Refa

unvoting for obvious reasons, being that my original vote wasnt legit and things are actually rolling now
I want to say too, Refa questioning BBM didn't really make me that suspicious of them, in fact the only thing that makes me suspect refa is their action towards me 
I don't really have any big scum reads right now (aside from Refa), I thought prims action towards me looked like legitimate town concern
Shinori doesnt look particularly scummy to me either, neither BBM or Propeller
There isnt much content to go off of just yet anyway so

I should also say that I find BBM's claim to be trustworthy, simply because I'm kind of unsure what scum would be trying to accomplish by saying something like that but maybe im just too inexperienced to even try thinking about it lol

Vote feels more OMGUS than due to reads/casing, but Refa is not without blame/cause due to the misrep of wording of Arcanite's post. 

Regarding the bolded statement: "Saying something like that" = What exactly did BBM even say/offer to us as actual information with his claim? Without any evidence of solidity/confirmation on any of the information he had (which was minimal at best), was there an actual information claim garnered by his post that served to provide a trustworthy read on his slot? What's to trust if there's nothing actually being given to warrant said trust?

[WeaponsofMassConstruction]

24 minutes ago, Eurykins said:

Also, what is the actual risk of someone faking being informed early in a day phase, when he basically gave out zero real information with his fakeclaim? All that was stated from BBM was the plausibility of a kill occurring at the end of the day phase, but nothing to validate or actually confirm said information, even from/by the mods themselves. What risk is there of being CC'd when there's no way anyone could?

It would be suspicious though if there was a real information role and they came out as well.

[Eurykins]

I hate losing posts. 4x. Shit sucks.

BBM

9 hours ago, BBM said:

i agree; wish I could screenshot me telling iris that my role blows

it doesn't specify but it's a 13p game so I wouldn't expect an ITP

How common is an ITP in a 13 man game? Also, does the fact that it's a rolemadness game affect the chances of it occurring or not?

5 hours ago, BBM said:

my vote is already on Shinori but to signify it's not RVS anymore

##Unvote, ##Vote: Shinori

I agree with Via's vote. To add on, I don't like that he basically is just attacking Refa for asking me a bunch of questions and trying to see what my reaction is. What else was Refa supposed to do other than talk about stuff?

Arcanite is viewing the thread so I'll let him respond before commenting on the votes against him.

but Prims to clarify are you voting him due to what you initially said or are you sheeping Refa (or both)?

Vote here seems a little easy. Also seems to be defending Refa, albeit poorly.

4 hours ago, BBM said:

you  made  like  4 posts attacking Refa for his questions towards me and subsequent responses??? i purposely didn't talk about the arcanite stuff cuz I was waiting for him to post before commenting on the cases against him or your defence of him. and yes, you didn't actually vote Refa until the arcanite stuff but I felt that all your other posts attacking him seemed to be the major reason.

i also disliked that you kept saying that Refa's stuff about me was the scummiest thing in the thread to date, but didn't vote him because apparently it wasn't something scum!Refa would do? why not? and if that's the case then why did you end up just voting him anyways for the arcanite thing? why is that more suspicious or more indicative of scum!Refa?

rereading Via's vote it doesn't actually quite say what I thought it said. but essentially what I thought it said was that your questions just seem super over the top and trying to make something out of nothing. like they don't seem to be geared towards trying to understand his mindset like you claim so much as just to bombard him. i think this is also the case with your follow-up questions to his response about his arcanite vote.

fwiw though I did agree with your initial assessment of Refa's arcanite vote as being nitpicky. 

do you find Prims/Via's vote on arcanite suspicious or just Refa's? i know they didn't vote until after your refa vote but you haven't really talked about their arcanite votes at all.

my other thoughts about arcanite next post

I'm not sure I understand the notion of withholding commenting 'til a certain point. Couldn't a point be still taken/noted while awaiting response from the other party(s) involved? Seems like an odd way to excuse not committing to a discussion at hand. 

> Are we making a game out of constantly misreading (and inadvertently misrepping) posts being made by people? It seems to have been happening on multiple levels since the day phase started, and it's seeming less of an "actual mistake" and moreso either graspy or weak attempts to twist posts into something they weren't meant to be. 

3 hours ago, BBM said:

anyways arcanite's response to the pressure against them wasn't good but neither were the votes against them.

i'm not really sure why you're voting them via? is it just because of what prims said? refa's vote is nitpicky but eh I can see it as town misreading a bit and thinking they caught some kind of slip. i feel like prims's vote here is the worst just because I don't really know what he's going for? arcanite's post talking about my claim IS kind of filler but like... so what? it's RVS. it also bothers me a bit that he didn't vote for it until after refa did.

given that this is only arcanite's second game I think I don't really think a poor response to pressure is alignment indicative. i'm a bit frustrated that they're getting run up early actually because now the majority of their d1 is going to be about the initial votes against them and their initial response and so forth and i feel like it's going to be hard to get a grasp on his alignment from that

What does the bolded even stand to mean? "Both of them sucked." Okay? Is this a good or bad thing? Is one side scummy for it or not? What is to be garnered here?

Last part of this post feels waffly to me. You're complaining that you'll find yourself unable to get a read on Arcanite, based on them being defensive about votes on them. Why not just start by focusing more questions towards Arcanite, and getting more information instead of merely watching them flail about- new player or not? Ask questions, ask for food for thought, anything? What would help you in being able to read their player slot?

1 hour ago, BBM said:

1. yeah my bad idk why I said that it was a joke. that being said I still don't understand what you were looking for from him given that you really want him to be looking for a specific reaction. people just ask questions looking for stuff in RVS. that's what you're doing too but you were doing so aggressively that it bothers me. you keep talking about how you're not sure what refa was trying to do- I'm not sure what you're trying to do.

3. again you can look for a reaction without having a specific reaction in mind. it just seems like you're really attacking him for the sake of attacking him. you asked him like 5 questions about the arcanite vote!!! 

4. i don't disagree with your initial pressing and saying that refa's initial vote was bad. it's the post I quoted where you're just asking him like 5 questions that makes me uncomfortable. and even then I said that those questions were more okay than the initial ones about his vote on me.

5. yeah ok I've clearly misread a bunch of posts. i'm still not really sure why you find the weapons unvote suspicious if you like his arcanite vote though? i think these two things go together. him unvoting weapons is only really suspicious imo if you think that his arcanite vote is worse.

##Unvote, ##Vote: Prims

see what I just said above. I think rereading his Weapons vote it's stronger than the Arcanite one so it feels like he's just wagoning onto Arcanite for the sake of wagoning? I think that generally speaking putting pressure and creating wagons just out of RVS is the right thing to do, to get stuff going and create more insightful reactions. However I feel like doing it on newbies is kind of unfair because they're probably going to react badly. Also Prims hasn't done this much as town in the past. I remember because I've specifically voted him out of RVS for not purposely making wagons for reactions before and he was town.

still a bit uncomfortable with Shinori just because his play seems overly aggressive. but I did misread a bunch of stuff and I think this Prims vote is stronger.

A lot of thoughts/opinons seem to be altered based on misread information. How much of your casing, thoughts, etc. are being affected in this vote swap, and aside from the redirect to Prims, does it affect any thoughts on Refa, or Arcanite, or anyone else? And is your vote on Prims moreso due to META than anything? 

Weapons/Shinori post coming up, but posting this so I don't lose shit again.

[Eurykins]

8 minutes ago, WeaponsofMassConstruction said:

It would be suspicious though if there was a real information role and they came out as well.

It is not uncommon to take a risk or gamble in Mafia games. Especially if executed in a way that the information was as limited as it seems to be coming from BBM- basically little to no information actually given. 

[Eurykins]

I'm going to sleep after this post.

Shinori

7 hours ago, Shinori said:

Because we know nothing outside of what BBM has said and it doesn't appear to be anything that we can make sense of, I feel it would be best if we don't role speculate off of it too much.  Speculation won't help without more information to be had and I don't think people claiming too much information at this point in time of the game will be of any help.

Is this supposed to be a joke?  Or are you insinuating that you don't believe BBM?

As far as I know/have experienced in the past, this is the general consensus of the game of Mafia about limiting information we spoonfeed to the public. What is wrong about him attempting to close down the role speccing early on, when most games/senior players have generally supported that theory of not doing so? (What makes Shinori's actions here out of the ordinary?)

7 hours ago, Shinori said:

Seeing as how people can respond to BBM without entirely speculating pointless stuff: As proven by Arcanites comment, I ask again, why does speculating this help from a logical standpoint?

I don't fully get your vote on me here Via.  You're voting me because I'm attempting to stop discussion I guess?  However if anything I've asked multiple questions, including some to do with BBM's role.  I don't entirely see how I would be seen as attempting to stifle discussion in that sense.  Especially since we can still see how people react to BBM and further than that we can even see how people react to me stating that I feel speculation is bad.  If anything I've furthered discussion without us wasting a few pages speculating multiple questions that cannot be answered.

Preview edit:

@Refa: Not voting you because even though it's extremely graspy it seems weird imo.  I see no reason town would ask BBM this from a logical standpoint but I also don't see scum as asking something like this?  Especially Scum!Refa, I would assume he's smart enough to know it's graspy reasoning and wouldn't aim to draw needless attention to himself.

@Propeller Knight

1: I think the way BBM claimed is townie in my eyes.  Refa's attack towards BBM was scummy but I don't see scum!Refa acting in this manner, however I do feel it's the scummiest thing that's happened so far.

2: There was a third party SK in that other anonygame, which was 13 players.  So I think it's possible, especially if this game is 'role madness'.

3: At the moment I feel Refa is the scummiest, not just for his comment towards BBM but also his comment/vote on Arcanite.   Primarily this:

Seems very nitpicky?  It's generally logical to say that if multiple deaths happened on day 1 they would most likely be town.

So for now I'm gonna do this:  The vote on Arcanite feels weak to me and nitpicky and his attack on BBM was bad.

##Unvote:

##Vote: Refa

Vote isn't bad- understandable given Refa's activities at the time. 

4 hours ago, Shinori said:

What do you find more suspicious in Prims vote BBM?  His reasoning for voting Arcanite or his vote swap OFF of Weapons?  The second is what stands out to me a lot more.

So where are your gut/reads on Prims currently? Was his swap off of Weapons indicative of anything, or just something that left a bad gut vibe? 

@Shinori Where else do your reads lie? The vast majority of your posts are regarding responding to Refa/BBM, so interested in the rest of your reads on the playerbase so far.

EDIT: CANNOT GET WEAPONS QUOTES TO POST. REEEEEEEEEE

[BBM]

"zero real information" 

cool wallposts eury. I hope shinori appreciated the clacks. who's scum? you're taking shots at basically everyone except Shinori but not voting anyone or specifically saying someone is scummy.

also you don't directly talk about my claim but I'm inferring from your questions to other people that you don't think there's any reason for me to fake being informed. yet you also think that my role is "completely garbage" and gives "zero real information". this seems incongruous.

3 minutes ago, Eurykins said:

How common is an ITP in a 13 man game? Also, does the fact that it's a rolemadness game affect the chances of it occurring or not?

not common; 14p is generally the minimum for games with both ITPs and a scumteam. smaller games with ITPs generally feature them as the main anti-town parties, like PiG.

8 minutes ago, Eurykins said:

I'm not sure I understand the notion of withholding commenting 'til a certain point. Couldn't a point be still taken/noted while awaiting response from the other party(s) involved? Seems like an odd way to excuse not committing to a discussion at hand. 

> Are we making a game out of constantly misreading (and inadvertently misrepping) posts being made by people? It seems to have been happening on multiple levels since the day phase started, and it's seeming less of an "actual mistake" and moreso either graspy or weak attempts to twist posts into something they weren't meant to be. 

I didn't want to give arcanite talking points to defend himself by pointing out the bad things about the votes on him. Shinori said and I more or less agree that Arcanite's defence against Refa is basically a wordier version of Shinori's own vote on Refa. wanted to avoid that.

am I scummy for this? me misreading via's post is also a weird instance of my misreading to make this point about considering I wasn't twisting via's words to find him suspicious.

13 minutes ago, Eurykins said:

What does the bolded even stand to mean? "Both of them sucked." Okay? Is this a good or bad thing? Is one side scummy for it or not? What is to be garnered here?

Last part of this post feels waffly to me. You're complaining that you'll find yourself unable to get a read on Arcanite, based on them being defensive about votes on them. Why not just start by focusing more questions towards Arcanite, and getting more information instead of merely watching them flail about- new player or not? Ask questions, ask for food for thought, anything? What would help you in being able to read their player slot?

the rest of my post literally answers the questions in this first line??? I found Prims's vote suspicious. found Refa's a bit bad but not overly so. want more clarification on via's vote. didn't find Arcanite's reaction telling.

They'd more or less given thoughts on everyone at the end of their previous post. I didn't have anything to ask them. idk i'll probably just get a better feel as more stuff happens that's not related to them and they give opinions about those things. i feel like they're going to get naturally defensive about stuff related to them and it won't be as useful. but reading new players is hard because there's no baseline play to compare to. also not sure what part of my bit on arcanite is waffly. i'm just complaining and saying their posts so far have been null.

19 minutes ago, Eurykins said:

A lot of thoughts/opinons seem to be altered based on misread information. How much of your casing, thoughts, etc. are being affected in this vote swap, and aside from the redirect to Prims, does it affect any thoughts on Refa, or Arcanite, or anyone else? And is your vote on Prims moreso due to META than anything? 

i guess I found refa a bit more suspicious? but more for what weapons said than what shinori was saying. i also wasn't townreading Refa. i just found Shinori rapid-fire blasting him with questions about fairly standard stuff unnerving. he is right in that his questions did get Refa to have some follow-up responses that I didn't like as much though.

[Eurykins]

1 hour ago, WeaponsofMassConstruction said:

eh

I agree with Shinori's points, so I'm fine with his question volleys.  I thought Refa was a little jumpy at first in interrogating BBM and his role claim, but also thought he was just squeezing for information in an RVS make stuff happen type way. Looking back, I probably should've said something, but I haven't played in a while and forgot the value of just saying stuff. Also Prims would use Last Known Meta.

Refa's posts since then don't feel all that consistent though

god what happened to SF's quoting system

The first quote implies that he's asking to gain information (which is what I though initially), but in the second he asserts that he was looking for BBM's reaction. I'd think if he were town, he'd highlight more that he was intending both of these goals simultaneously. On top of this, I felt like it was pretty evident that SB wasn't going to relay more information, so I'm not sure what he was expecting out of a reaction.

BBM's roleclaim on its own I can't take as hard town or scum, so I'll mostly ignore that it happened when reading him. I have another point related to Refa and this, but it's kind of rolefishy and I'll save it for later if it becomes relevant.

And I agree with the feel that this is reachy. I could still see it as being early day 1 mode gameplay though, and was a little suspicious of Arcanite's post in the first place, but I think the vote switch is a little strong. On Arcanite now, I think the way they're being adamant about suspicions on them is not particularly scummy. I think more posts from them will make things clearer, so not really invested in a pile on.

##Unvote, ##Vote: Refa

Italicized part implies that Refa was waffling over the BBM claim and with his early posts. Is this scummy? What does this offer as a read on Refa?

Bolded part seems to attempt to justify the vote on Refa, but seems non-commital/has the aura of fence-sitting and easy vote-sitting. If the suspect on Arcanite is not scummy in itself, is the vote swap/waffling over BBM claim the main meat of the vote? And does it remain as the biggest "scum" read for you currently, or is Refa merely the biggest fish flopping next to Arcanite? The loudest source of attention that can equate to the an easy vote swap target?

@WeaponsofMassConstruction Where do the rest of your reads reside? Prims? BBM? Shinori? Propeller? 

 

TL;DR Verdict from above posts (so I can sleep): Refa is the loudest magikarp in the group; BBM is flailing next to him, moreso due to the misreading of everything and a lot of questionable posting (With Refa's wagon having sufficient pressure to hopefully garner more information/response, I will apply some on the latter slot since I have a lot I want to hear back from him). Shinori and Prims and Propeller are in an okay boat, but wanting to see and hear more from them. The rest should be more active and contribute thoughts/posts when they can.

[Refa = BBM >>>>> Prims/Shinori/Prop = Everyone else]

##Vote: BBM 

[Eurykins]

I WAS POST SNIPED. WHY YOU DO THIS BBM

[BBM]

oh I guess that takes care of who Eury finds suspicious. eury in the future if you're going to break apart your walls into 5 posts, give your reads up front or vote your scummiest read while talking about them

if I have no reason to fake my claim, why am I scum? feels very weird that you talk about my claim in relation to other people's posts about it, but don't talk about it directly or in relation to my alignment. what's the evidence that I'm purposely misrepping people for the purposes of pushing a case, as opposed to just being derpy? you just say that it feels like it is, but why?

[Eurykins]

5 minutes ago, BBM said:

"zero real information" 

cool wallposts eury. I hope shinori appreciated the clacks. who's scum? you're taking shots at basically everyone except Shinori but not voting anyone or specifically saying someone is scummy.

also you don't directly talk about my claim but I'm inferring from your questions to other people that you don't think there's any reason for me to fake being informed. yet you also think that my role is "completely garbage" and gives "zero real information". this seems incongruous.

not common; 14p is generally the minimum for games with both ITPs and a scumteam. smaller games with ITPs generally feature them as the main anti-town parties, like PiG.

I didn't want to give arcanite talking points to defend himself by pointing out the bad things about the votes on him. Shinori said and I more or less agree that Arcanite's defence against Refa is basically a wordier version of Shinori's own vote on Refa. wanted to avoid that.

am I scummy for this? me misreading via's post is also a weird instance of my misreading to make this point about considering I wasn't twisting via's words to find him suspicious.

the rest of my post literally answers the questions in this first line??? I found Prims's vote suspicious. found Refa's a bit bad but not overly so. want more clarification on via's vote. didn't find Arcanite's reaction telling.

They'd more or less given thoughts on everyone at the end of their previous post. I didn't have anything to ask them. idk i'll probably just get a better feel as more stuff happens that's not related to them and they give opinions about those things. i feel like they're going to get naturally defensive about stuff related to them and it won't be as useful. but reading new players is hard because there's no baseline play to compare to. also not sure what part of my bit on arcanite is waffly. i'm just complaining and saying their posts so far have been null.

i guess I found refa a bit more suspicious? but more for what weapons said than what shinori was saying. i also wasn't townreading Refa. i just found Shinori rapid-fire blasting him with questions about fairly standard stuff unnerving. he is right in that his questions did get Refa to have some follow-up responses that I didn't like as much though.

You make us have that sad face, BBM. All you, good sir. 

Already posted about priority/thoughts. In the post you apparently snuck in ahead of 'cause new SF posting system is garbage for Mafia posts and keeps devouring my posts. I see now why Shinori challenged me into playing Mafia again... the struggle with the posting shit is killer. >_>

...Huh? I asked multiple times as to why people thought what they did wrt your claim. I even said that you could have taken the risk to gamble/pull a stunt in doing a fakeclaim, because of how ambiguous (and in extent, useless) your claim information was. I specifically said that was no reason why you COULDN'T have fakeclaimed, because of how safe the act of claiming a basically informationless information role is LOL. If I were to be completely honest, I don't trust your claim as being legit or worthwhile at all.

Misreading posts is questionable to me. It is something that generally doesn't occur often, and when it's happened as MUCH as it has ALREADY since ED1, that makes me start to question who is being legit, versus someone trying to utilize it to misrep and twist things around. Even if it's not directly aimed back at the source, it can be used to redirect to another person/target, which is still something that is being skewed towards your own individual PoV/goal. 

The point of you waffling on Arcanite is the fact that you're "just complaining and saying their posts so far have been null." Why not prompt them, ask them something, to help garner something more than just idly sitting back and complaining? Should townside not be more proactive in their activity, prodding of players, and pressing of information to scum hunt to the utmost efficiency? The action of not doing anything is moreso a coasting sort of act, something that should not be done coming from a townside player.

> Since you've noted Prims with meta earlier, what about Shinori meta? Has he not also been known fairly prevalent as being aggressive or otherwise very loud player (if the OP quote wasn't indicative enough of it), in terms of being easy to rile up in Mafia games? Does his results (that you mention about noting from Refa) rectify his grilling of Refa, or does his tactic still render him less pleasant of a read as a result?

[WeaponsofMassConstruction]

Eury wallposts

eh

[BBM]

5 minutes ago, Eurykins said:

...Huh? I asked multiple times as to why people thought what they did wrt your claim. I even said that you could have taken the risk to gamble/pull a stunt in doing a fakeclaim, because of how ambiguous (and in extent, useless) your claim information was. I specifically said that was no reason why you COULDN'T have fakeclaimed, because of how safe the act of claiming a basically informationless information role is LOL. If I were to be completely honest, I don't trust your claim as being legit or worthwhile at all.

??? maybe I'm misreading your posts as well. but posts like this imply to me that you think the risk of me faking informed is low:

1 hour ago, Eurykins said:

Also, what is the actual risk of someone faking being informed early in a day phase, when he basically gave out zero real information with his fakeclaim? All that was stated from BBM was the plausibility of a kill occurring at the end of the day phase, but nothing to validate or actually confirm said information, even from/by the mods themselves. What risk is there of being CC'd when there's no way anyone could?

but all your posts then imply that i'm BSing and that my role is useless. i don't understand what you're trying to say. do you mean that the risk to me if I'm scum of faking informed is low?

5 minutes ago, Eurykins said:

Misreading posts is questionable to me. It is something that generally doesn't occur often, and when it's happened as MUCH as it has ALREADY since ED1, that makes me start to question who is being legit, versus someone trying to utilize it to misrep and twist things around. Even if it's not directly aimed back at the source, it can be used to redirect to another person/target, which is still something that is being skewed towards your own individual PoV/goal. 

people misread posts all the time; I have no idea what you're talking about. and not that it necessarily makes me town, but... there is literally a meme in the mafia community about me specifically having shitty reading skills. plus it's not like I'm persisting with my misreads; I've admitted when I made a mistake and took what I said back. in the case with Via, I then said myself what I thought Via was saying for me, so I didn't use that to make up a point against Shinori. the bit about me misreading weapons was also not related to me pushing a case on anybody. the only thing that fits your narrative, even if I were scum trying to misrep and twist things around, was the bit about Refa joking wrt his comment about my role.

I really dislike this point because it feels like you're just saying me misreading is scummy and that I COULD use it to push cases and skew things towards my PoV/goal without actually looking to see if that's what I'm doing, and you're presuming a guilty motivation on my part.

13 minutes ago, Eurykins said:

The point of you waffling on Arcanite is the fact that you're "just complaining and saying their posts so far have been null." Why not prompt them, ask them something, to help garner something more than just idly sitting back and complaining? Should townside not be more proactive in their activity, prodding of players, and pressing of information to scum hunt to the utmost efficiency? The action of not doing anything is moreso a coasting sort of act, something that should not be done coming from a townside player.

waffling isn't the same as coasting, so I'm glad we've cleared up that I wasn't waffling. i didn't have any questions to ask them at that time. it's not like I could have asked the questions you asked arcanite for example.

21 minutes ago, Eurykins said:

> Since you've noted Prims with meta earlier, what about Shinori meta? Has he not also been known fairly prevalent as being aggressive or otherwise very loud player (if the OP quote wasn't indicative enough of it), in terms of being easy to rile up in Mafia games? Does his results (that you mention about noting from Refa) rectify his grilling of Refa, or does his tactic still render him less pleasant of a read as a result?

shinori is aggressive in that he yells at people a lot. this isn't the same thing as him questioning people about things that aren't a very big deal, at least as I saw it at the time. I also want to remind you that given some misreads, this point is not as strong as I originally thought. that's why I unvoted.

also I realize I didn't answer your prims question from earlier- prims is suspicious because he dropped (imo) a stronger vote for a weaker vote to wagon someone. the meta makes it stronger because it means that one of the possible town reasons for doing this doesn't apply to him.

what do you think about my prims vote?

[BBM]

Just now, BBM said:

but all your posts then imply that i'm BSing and that my role is useless. i don't understand what you're trying to say. do you mean that the risk to me if I'm scum of faking informed is low?

reading again it seems that this is what you mean. firstly I'm going to dispute what you said about being totally useless. mafia having a daykill is strong! means a town info role could die the end of the phase during which they claim without getting docced at night. notifying town of this is something useful. it's still a very weak role, but there are lots of weak roles that exist, particularly in role madness games where you need to give something to everybody. town safeguard is basically useless and should be idled every night except in very niche applications and yet it gets put in role madness games all the time.

you've talked a lot about how I could make this claim as scum. but why would I? what does it gain me? if I'm totally BSing, eventually people will get suspicious of there never being a daykill. And if I'm basing this fake off a scum role, why would I give up the element of surprise?

[Refa]

this wagon on me is bullshit

[Refa]

Literally Shinori is the only one w/a well reasoned vote on me that I can say was in good faith, which is why I didn't push him.

Arcanite votes me for lying about having misread her, which is idiotic.  How am I supposed to defend myself from someone who's just assuming that I'm lying?

Nothing about Weapons' vote indicates scum intent.  "The first quote implies that he's asking to gain information (which is what I though initially), but in the second he asserts that he was looking for BBM's reaction. I'd think if he were town, he'd highlight more that he was intending both of these goals simultaneously." Why is this scummy?  Why is my ED1 vote strong?

Very upset that BBM is encouraging a wagon on me while also not voting me and finding me scummy for something I can't argue against.  Also Prims vote is bad (Prims is not scummy for acting slightly different than he did last game) and as soon as Prims successfully argues against it, who wants to bet that he'll jump on me?  

Okay, I didn't actually read Eurykins' post so I'm not bashing you here.  I'll do that later, I guess, if I have too.

[Bard]

Did I miss Forum Mafia? Well, these text walls make me reconsider!

Re: BBM's Claim

I think in the grander scheme of things it's unimportant to decide whether it's scummy or not because it is an inherently WIFOM argument. There could be any number of reasons for scum to claim this early. Gambits exist.

I dislike BBM then begging the question of, "If I have no reason to fake my claim, why am I scum?" because this is inviting that WIFOM argument, and frankly he chatters too much about his role for my tastes. Informed Townie in a role madness game feels rather bastard to me since it's effectively vanilla; can't do shit with the information gained, so I don't trust that's all there is to BBM's claim.

Flaunting how much you misread makes it seem like you'd make more of an effort to read properly to me. Maybe we're just wired differently, I don't like being known as incompetent and I certainly wouldn't use a reputation for incompetence as a defence. Explain why you think you didn't misread/why your interpretation is correct, please.

Re: Propeller Knight

Why is everyone insisting on another name for you dammit. You said early on you wanted to explain why BBM's role makes sense in the context of the game and why you thought he wasn't fakeclaiming. Did you ever get to do that? I don't care much for the explanation itself (see above: WIFOM) but I think it's misleading you talk about how information can be gleaned from BBM's claim and then proceed to do a whole lot of nothing with it.

Re: Shinori

8 hours ago you made a post that started with "@Refa: Not voting you" and spending some time talking about how Scum!Refa doesn't jive with your expectations. You literally state:

8 hours ago, Shinori said:

[snip]

@Refa: Not voting you because even though it's extremely graspy it seems weird imo.  I see no reason town would ask BBM this from a logical standpoint but I also don't see scum as asking something like this?  Especially Scum!Refa, I would assume he's smart enough to know it's graspy reasoning and wouldn't aim to draw needless attention to himself.

@Propeller Knight

1: I think the way BBM claimed is townie in my eyes.  Refa's attack towards BBM was scummy but I don't see scum!Refa acting in this manner, however I do feel it's the scummiest thing that's happened so far.

2: There was a third party SK in that other anonygame, which was 13 players.  So I think it's possible, especially if this game is 'role madness'.

3: At the moment I feel Refa is the scummiest, not just for his comment towards BBM but also his comment/vote on Arcanite.   Primarily this:

So for now I'm gonna do this:  The vote on Arcanite feels weak to me and nitpicky and his attack on BBM was bad.

##Unvote:

##Vote: Refa

So what is this waffle? Are you Serela? I'm not satisfied with "Refa is the scummiest even if I don't feel Scum!Refa'd act this way", since it feels like you're already covering your tracks in case he doesn't flip scum. How can you both think someone is scummiest and make the case against him being scummy?

How can this be considered legitimate scumhunting? (Read: It shouldn't be.)

I also don't like defensive posts that attack someone's character ("This is stupid", "Are you even reading properly?"). Yeah, you do address his content luckily but I think the ad hominem attacks are unwarranted.

Re: Arcanite

Way too skittish for my tastes and the Posts:Content ratio is disheartening. Early vote on Refa doesn't read legitimate to me, don't understand why you take the time to talk down someone else's suspicion of Refa and highlight he's only on your scumdar for actions with regard to yourself. Also I don't like the use of process of elimination so early, of course you'll have few scum reads. Claiming BBM is trustworthy and then downgrading self by saying how inexperienced you are also just doesn't seem town-minded to me, because it's a lot of waffle and padded content with no real substance to it.

 

##Unvote

##VOTE: Shinori

Don't like the waffle and Refa vote based off of "Scum!Refa wouldn't act like this but this is Scum!Refa."

BBM should substantiate why he feels his interpretation is correct rather than "lel i have reputation for misreading". Also less chatter about your role and more focus on actual things we can talk about.

[Refa]

Bard, I'm still working on another post, but you should at least give opinions on my slot considering it's a point of contention.

[Bard]

I thought I was obvious enough but let me spell it out:

I don't even consider Refa's wagon worth attention at this point in time. I will revisit that if somehow this wagon makes it closer to the deadline. 

[Refa]

@Arcanite You mention above that Prims is making you look much worse than you are.  However, later on you mention that it looks like genuine town concern...How do you reconcile these two things?

@BBM Your Shinori push also bothers me.  It reads as you finding misplays over scum plays to me.  Why does Scum!Shinori dislike my read on you but saying it's unlikely to come from Scum!Refa?  What's the benefit?  That's why I didn't vote him on it despite calling it out, because it didn't bother me at the time.  @Bard You can answer this too, since it is your vote. 

Anyways, I don't think Arcanite's response to the pressure was bad.  It's some weak ass justification but could come from either alignment.  Arcanite's case on me is what bothers me because they just decided that I lied about misreading ergo I'm scum.  @Shinori I didn't read the game you played w/Arcanite very closely.  Is this similar to Arcanite's case on you from that game?  I want to know if Arcanite is acting in bad faith or out of lack of experience.

BBM, I'm really unsure about.  I think his stance on me and his Prims vote are scummy af but his handling of his claim and his responses to Shinori are really townie and I'm having a hard time reconciling the two.  Didn't read his exchange w/Eurykins though because I'd need to read her posts to understand the context.

@Bard I'm confused, why do you think BBM is primarily talking about his role?  I have issues w/his slot but him having content outside of that wasn't one of them.  Feels unfair to me.

1 minute ago, Bard said:

I thought I was obvious enough but let me spell it out:

I don't even consider Refa's wagon worth attention at this point in time. I will revisit that if somehow this wagon makes it closer to the deadline. 

I moreso meant what you thought of my slot, not what you think about the wagon on me.

Deliberately keeping my vote on Arcanite.  I'll reevaluate my vote as soon as I get a response from Shinori.  I don't think it has as much scum intent as BBM stating a suspicion on me but making a weak Prims vote instead, but I'm really conflicted on that slot.  Weapons bothers me because he voted me for reasons that don't even imply that I'm scum, and ignored the rest of the game.  Wouldn't hesitate to vote there.

It's hard to get the full picture when 4/13 players haven't done anything yet, so hopefully that changes soon.

[Refa]

"Your Shinori push also bothers me.  It reads as you finding misplays over scum plays to me" This doesn't apply anymore, bad editing on my part.  Overall, I'm not bothered by BBM's Shinori case but I think calling Shinori out on waffling on me earlier doesn't make sense.

[Iris]

Day 1.2 - Votals
Arcanite (3): Refa, Via, Prims
Refa (3): Shinori, Arcanite, Weapons
BBM (1): Eurykins
Prims (1): BBM
Shinori (1): Bard
Walrein (1): Omega

Not Voting: Fenrir Aesir, Rapier, Walrein

You have ~58 hours left in the day.  With 13 alive, it takes 5 to lynch and 9 to hammer.

[🔥YOLOSWAG🔥]

Good morning!

I'm not crazy about Refa's handling of Arcanite. His later play is more palatable as he has some fair observations, but I have some skepticism towards the slot at the moment that should be resolved sooner or later as more players get involved. I endorse him being under the gun, we should get some good info from it.

BBM and Shinori have been on the ball; the former making pushes at the right time towards the right people. I really lliked his challenging of Eurykins earlier and he was the first to vote Prims. He is combative in a scumhunty get his hands dirty kinda way which I dig. I really don't get any hate on this slot atm.

Shinori came out the gate pressing Refa on his treatment of Arcanite; that series of posts resonated strongly with me. His side eyeing of Prims also wins him Keep Alive Tokens.

I would not lynch Arcanite. Their frustration towards Prims/Refa I found warranted enough that they can live for today.

Prims looks to be a villain for reasons stated beforehand. He's my top play at the moment.

D1 Plays: Prims >>>> Refa

D1 Nonplays: Myself, BBM, Arcanite, Shinori.

Everyone else is floating around at different points of nullsville. I hope to get more from the lower posters for the sake of getting a better grasp on this game. I'm Town, ask me anything.

##Vote: Prims

[🔥YOLOSWAG🔥]

1 hour ago, Bard said:

I don't even consider Refa's wagon worth attention at this point in time.

How come? I didn't see a RE: Refa in your big post, I'm looking to have it spelled out.

[Arcanite]

9 hours ago, BBM said:

but essentially what I thought it said was that your questions just seem super over the top and trying to make something out of nothing.

Isn't mafia really about making something out of nothing? Sure, some cases are just nonsense but considering we're still in day one and this was made on the third page, someone was going to say something at some point.
You've already switched your vote to prims anyway, I just thought saying something like this is weird. I mean without action we'd just be knocking around and posting crap all day as much as I want to post crap all day

6 hours ago, BBM said:

yeah ok I've clearly misread a bunch of posts

Friendly advice that you might want to put on your glasses

 

 

6 hours ago, Eurykins said:

Interesting howso? What were you considering when you were posting, considering the situation of the aforementioned sentence? I don't think it was a bad thing to want to get a ball rolling ED1, but I'm more interested in the mindset behind this post when making it.

Interesting because this is a 13 player game and if 3 towns die that brings our 3x advantage over scum (10 - 3) down to only 2x (7 - 3). I guess I was kind of saying that we better pick a god and pray/make some really good reasons on who ends up getting lynched because if we dont we're going to be crippled, to say the least (even though us having good reasons doesn't exactly guarantee the person will be scum anyway). Of course that also doesnt mean that they have to use this action they're supposed to have instantly (First Day).
Again too, there wasn't much yet and with BBM's claim things were actually starting to get serious so I figured I'd say something to get the things flowing and going anyway ~

6 hours ago, Eurykins said:

Regarding the bolded statement: "Saying something like that" = What exactly did BBM even say/offer to us as actual information with his claim? Without any evidence of solidity/confirmation on any of the information he had (which was minimal at best), was there an actual information claim garnered by his post that served to provide a trustworthy read on his slot? What's to trust if there's nothing actually being given to warrant said trust?

He didn't offer much... and as pointed out earlier, not much more specific info was given. It does sound like some sort of role-thing, and if one were to explore the opposite: "Perhaps this is some sort of scum tactic?" Which also begs the question of "What would mafia gain by doing something like this?" which is something I am unsure how to answer, aside from saying I don't think they'd gain much besides making the person who would claim such a thing look suspicious or put in a somewhat awkward position (that is only my thinking). Obviously him making this claim doesn't exactly clear him of any suspect or prove for certainty that he is town, (which is what Refa legitimately questioned imo). Reading back though, BBM also proceeded to post content good enough for me to think that they're not scum... but yet another "misread" circumstance just makes me reluctant to have any sort of trust

3 hours ago, Bard said:

Claiming BBM is trustworthy and then downgrading self by saying how inexperienced you are also just doesn't seem town-minded to me, because it's a lot of waffle and padded content with no real substance to it.

I said that because it's the straight-up truth. I haven't played enough mafia to even begin to speculate what kinds of plays scum would be trying to make. And since trying to speculate about it also seems pointless all I could really say is:

Quote

I should also say that I find BBM's claim to be trustworthy, simply because I'm kind of unsure what scum would be trying to accomplish by saying something like that but maybe im just too inexperienced to even try thinking about it lol

I didn't want to make a post without acknowledging that whole interaction so

3 hours ago, Bard said:

I thought I was obvious enough but let me spell it out:

I don't even consider Refa's wagon worth attention at this point in time. I will revisit that if somehow this wagon makes it closer to the deadline. 

I don't get this... are you saying everything that happened with that whole situation should be ignored? Do you really think nothing is worth exploring pertaining to that particular issue?

 

 

 

3 hours ago, Refa said:

How am I supposed to defend myself from someone who's just assuming that I'm lying?

I just feel like you're an experienced enough player to not say something like that in the first place (swapping "might" for "will"). then pass it off as a "misread" like it's nothing. then stand your ground, while admitting it's a weak case. I guess you admitted that it's not a strong case but that doesn't make it excusable either
It almost feels like you were using my noobish experience to exploit some sort suspicion on me early on perhaps, maybe watch me flake under pressure? 

2 hours ago, Refa said:

You mention above that Prims is making you look much worse than you are.  However, later on you mention that it looks like genuine town concern...How do you reconcile these two things?

Well prims said that but they didn't even vote me instantly, they just let it settle on weapons. They only later swapped their vote to me because of you and propeller jumping on me, which I guess gave him more confidence in putting their vote on me than before. 

I want to wait on prims' next post to discuss them further but the current arguments brought against him don't really make me certain that he is town.

Im also going to properly read through Eurykins' posts now