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On 3/5/2018 at 4:57 PM, Azz said:

I never said you were arrogant. I was just pointing out your wording of you OP sounded as if that other then graphics, there was nothing to like about SoV and that anyone that does like it is a hypocrite because the other 3DS games are like SoV, which they really aren't but I already explained that in my original post.

Trying to lecture me on the fact that what I stated is my opinion as if I didn't know that certainly implies arrogance or stupidity on my part. I never said that there was nothing else to like about SOV, I said the graphics were the only thing that was "great". I do feel like the people who hate Fates for doing the same thing as Echoes while praising the latter are hypocrites. 

On 3/5/2018 at 4:57 PM, Azz said:

As for Rudolf's plan, it is rather simple. It's literally just 'Here Mycen, this is Alm, according to a prophecy, he will save Valentia. Take him and train him into a warrior fit to one day best me so he saves Valentia. If he dies though, we're fucked'. It's really that not contrived, especially compared to the likes of Azura and Sephiran.

You seem to be confusing "contrived" and "convoluted". What did Sephiran actually do other than aid Ashnard? I keep seeing people saying this lately. 

On 3/5/2018 at 4:57 PM, Azz said:

 Also every lord has a sense of chosen one, this isn't new.

Also Faye isn't a yandere. If she was, Celica would be dead. Faye is obsessed yes, but no yandere. Also I have no idea who this tsundere you speak of is.

Never said it was. It's just that people hate Corrin for being "The Chosen One" but not Alm. 

Really now? The "I'm ready to kill in your name" bit just didn't happen huh? 

Sorry about that I meant ojou not tsundere, and I was referring to Claire.

On 3/5/2018 at 4:57 PM, Azz said:

Corrin's not perfect, their problem is they are extremely flawed yet never learn from them and no one ever points them out and tells Corrin to stop. I gues we'll have to just agree to disagree, I find Alm to be quite human and I think his growth is quite good, not on the level as say Marth in SD or Leif, but good enough, especially compared to Corrin, who gets zilch.

Like what? The only thing I can think of is being too nice, which he does get called out on. This isn't much of a thing in Birthright. 

And what growth are you speaking of? Alm is exactly the same from start to finish, other going from a peasant to a king. 

On 3/5/2018 at 4:57 PM, Azz said:

She was secretive because 1) She knew if she revealed herself as princess, she would be made lead the Deliverance, something she wouldn't want to do (Boey also says this at the beginning of Act 3 btw). 2) Celica is a selfless person. She would much prefer die to save her friends and Valentia then let her friends die to save her. 3) She felt her allies would try and stop her from working with Jedah and as far as Celica was concerned, working with him was the only way to fix the problem they were in. 

1. By who exactly? She's on the other side of Sophia with a crew that consists of priests,sellswords, and foreigners. None of them give a damn about the Deliverance or the Sofian royal family. 

2. Except Judah intended to kill them all and made no secrets of it. 

3.Yeah, they would and should have. Why the fuck would Judah free the only one capable of stopping him anyway? 

On 3/5/2018 at 4:57 PM, Azz said:

Maybe its been where I have been hanging around on the internet then, but I see Alm get a lot of flack as well.

Please link me.   

On 3/5/2018 at 5:20 PM, AlmondJuice said:

If you all don't mind my naive opinion, I think Echoes is pretty good. Sure, it's not the BEST game in the series (all hail FE4) but it's pretty good. What most appeals to me about the game is the soundtrack. Now, the music may not be the best out there, but you gotta admit that it's a damn good score (is score the right word here?). The dungeon crawling in Echoes was a huge step up from what we had in Gaiden. However, I didn't like not being able to explore villages and such places like you can explore a dungeon, although I liked being able to do some Phoenix Wright-like investigating, if that makes sense. Gameplay-wise, maps were reused a lot in different places, and fighting terrors could get tedious at times. I also feel like Act 6 was kind of shoehorned in, although it did give us some backstory as to how and why Grima exists, as well as a fun super dungeon of sorts.

Anyway, I know that was structured poorly, but I said what I wanted to. If you like or dislike Echoes, that's fine. Keep in mind that it's a remake of a game and story made in the 90s, and the developers wanted to stay as true to the original as possible (with exceptions, of course), and that it's not flawless. I do like how it expanded upon a lot of vague aspects of the story and characters that Gaiden had, and fleshed it out a lot more.

With that in mind, I hope that you can give Echoes another chance. I know that I'm bad at explaining things, so I hope you were able to bear with me here.

Don't be so hard on yourself, you did fine. I definitely understand where people like you are coming from. 

On 3/5/2018 at 5:28 PM, Etrurian emperor said:

 

He's trying to heal Duma because he cares. Its his god. 

I don't think Jedah really requires much of a backstory. He's the head priest, he's devoted to Duma's teaching and evil. What else is there to know about him? Some people need a backstory to explain or enhance their motives but Jedah isn't one of those. He acts like his status both in the world and in the writing dictate that he should. Even his daughters being so minor isn't that weird. Jedah got kids and as a true priest thought that sacrificing them to daddy Duma was a great idea. 

Also I believe its mentioned that its Rudolf who's the cause of the monsters. The monsters spawn because the peace pact between the gods and kingdom broke and its Rudolf who started the war.

He states that Doma enjoys suffering or something to that effect, but from what we know of him pre-madness, this isn't him at all. Wouldn't the whole hell on earth thing work better with him the way he was during the game? Judah's entire sect seem to worship post-degeneration Doma rather than pre.  

If you can't see why it's bad to just gloss over something like that, I don't know what to say.

Really? Because Judah and the dark priests are seen on screen summoning them. He even calls a Mogall cute.   

On 3/5/2018 at 5:31 PM, Etrurian emperor said:

 

What more could Echoes have done to elevate a blank slate cast and NES game writing?

I will make a new thread for that one. The most obvious one being a explanation for exactly what the faiths believe and their customs. 

On 3/5/2018 at 6:00 PM, Mandokarla said:

What I'm seeing here is someone making a post, to apparently facilitate discussion and the transference of ideas, about Shadows of Valentia. That post is followed up by someone responding with their opinion, and then the OP pretty much just saying "no", repeating several times over -- with respect being all but absent. 

What I'm seeing is a waste of time, a conversation in which neither side is actually listening to the other and considering their ideas. 

Nothing is being accomplished here. This thread should be locked. It's clear that OP made this post from the firm standpoint that SoV was a sub-par game at best, and has not acknowledged the fact that they view those who disagree as objectively wrong. It's clear in the phrasing of the arguments and the manner in which this discussion has been handled. We see the people defending the game actually absorb some of OP's points, for example regarding Conrad robbing Celica of some agency and character strength (which I do agree with), and acknowledging them without stating a flat denial. This is a one sided debate. 

What the fuck are you talking about? 

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I'd just like to remind you that in the original, everyone not a villain, Alm, Celica, Nomah or Mycen had two lines-One for recruitment and one for death.

This is a complete, utter, 100% better in every possible way improvement.

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59 minutes ago, Corrobin said:

I'd just like to remind you that in the original, everyone not a villain, Alm, Celica, Nomah or Mycen had two lines-One for recruitment and one for death.

This is a complete, utter, 100% better in every possible way improvement.

You've missed the entire point of the topic.

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I didn't find Echoes' cast particularly good per se, but I found them (for the most part) inoffensive. There's only so much you can do with such limited dialogue, and a few characters in the cast suffer from having only 1-2 supports (Kliff, Mathilda, Faye, etc.). I'm not saying that we need to return to the Fates and Awakening style-every character has 20 supports but 1-2 supports per character and 4 for the lords just isn't enough. And the base conversations didn't make up for it, since they were just every character dumping exposition on you through Alm and Celica's perspective, with no actual conversation taking place.

Anyway my main problem with Echoes isn't with it's plot or characters, but with its gameplay. The only game that's worse in that aspect is Revelation

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1 hour ago, UNLEASH IT said:

I didn't find Echoes' cast particularly good per se, but I found them (for the most part) inoffensive. There's only so much you can do with such limited dialogue, and a few characters in the cast suffer from having only 1-2 supports (Kliff, Mathilda, Faye, etc.). I'm not saying that we need to return to the Fates and Awakening style-every character has 20 supports but 1-2 supports per character and 4 for the lords just isn't enough. And the base conversations didn't make up for it, since they were just every character dumping exposition on you through Alm and Celica's perspective, with no actual conversation taking place.

Anyway my main problem with Echoes isn't with it's plot or characters, but with its gameplay. The only game that's worse in that aspect is Revelation

Agreed. This cast was definitely more tame, but I wouldn't describe them as "colorful".  

 Do you seriously think that Revelation has worse gameplay than Gaiden? I mean come on, I know it's cool to hate this game but it only has a few bad chapters just like any other FE. The only thing I can think of is the ice shoveling and Sumeragi one. It was quite a decent challenge on Lunatic. 

On 3/5/2018 at 6:00 PM, Mandokarla said:

What I'm seeing here is someone making a post, to apparently facilitate discussion and the transference of ideas, about Shadows of Valentia. That post is followed up by someone responding with their opinion, and then the OP pretty much just saying "no", repeating several times over -- with respect being all but absent. 

What I'm seeing is a waste of time, a conversation in which neither side is actually listening to the other and considering their ideas. 

Nothing is being accomplished here. This thread should be locked. It's clear that OP made this post from the firm standpoint that SoV was a sub-par game at best, and has not acknowledged the fact that they view those who disagree as objectively wrong. It's clear in the phrasing of the arguments and the manner in which this discussion has been handled. We see the people defending the game actually absorb some of OP's points, for example regarding Conrad robbing Celica of some agency and character strength (which I do agree with), and acknowledging them without stating a flat denial. This is a one sided debate. 

I'm hoping you explain yourself sometime this week. I did a bit of  ᶜʳᵉᵉᵖᶦᶰ on you and found that this isn't the first you've tried mini modding. Only one of those cases was justified. 

So is this like a hobby or something? "Settle down, children"? You trying to become a mod? It's like you're wearing some sort of glasses that only let you read the most abrasive bits while completely ignoring everything else. You then resort to outright lying. 

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5 hours ago, Køkø said:

. I'm hoping you explain yourself sometime this week. I did a bit of  ᶜʳᵉᵉᵖᶦᶰ on you and found that this isn't the first you've tried mini modding. Only one of those cases was justified. 

So is this like a hobby or something? "Settle down, children"? You trying to become a mod? It's like you're wearing some sort of glasses that only let you read the most abrasive bits while completely ignoring everything else. You then resort to outright lying. 

It just irritates me. In what case have I outright lied? I've mistyped once that I can think of recently, when I was talking about Levant and Joshcja -- I was harsher than necessary, I will admit. Your fixation on me is flattering though, I appreciate it -- such a drive to get a response from a random internet stranger is admirable. 

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23 minutes ago, Mandokarla said:

It just irritates me. In what case have I outright lied? I've mistyped once that I can think of recently, when I was talking about Levant and Joshcja -- I was harsher than necessary, I will admit. Your fixation on me is flattering though, I appreciate it -- such a drive to get a response from a random internet stranger is admirable. 

Debates? You'd think you'd want to stay away from them then.  

Several times. Me viewing others as being objectively wrong (even though I actually state that I'm possibly wrong in the fucking opening), not being respectful, claiming neither side is listening to the other despite it clearly not being the case (you even said it yourself in your post, so it was largely directed towards me), it being a waste time even though I'm actually getting something out of it and hopefully others are too.....

You don't have that much history so it was pretty easy to spot. Took no more than 5 minutes, so "fixation" is real strong. I saw you said you were in the process of getting a book done, so maybe then if it's good. What's it about? 

I just wanted to know why you felt like getting me into trouble.

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30 minutes ago, Køkø said:

Debates? You'd think you'd want to stay away from them then.  

Several times. Me viewing others as being objectively wrong (even though I actually state that I'm possibly wrong in the fucking opening), not being respectful, claiming neither side is listening to the other despite it clearly not being the case (you even said it yourself in your post, so it was largely directed towards me), it being a waste time even though I'm actually getting something out of it and hopefully others are too.....

You don't have that much history so it was pretty easy to spot. Took no more than 5 minutes, so "fixation" is real strong. I saw you said you were in the process of getting a book done, so maybe then if it's good. What's it about? 

I just wanted to know why you felt like getting me into trouble.

My goal wasn't to get you in trouble, I don't get a kick out of that. My phrasing was, upon review, pretty blunt and shitty myself, so I am also wrong here. This thread was on a topic I was/am interested in (I enjoyed Echoes, but I will never claim it is the best FE on any scale aside from presentation), but your responses to a lot of other people looked pretty shitty from my perspective. It is not debate, it is the manner the debate is conducted. You (understandably) responded to hostility with more hostility (your first response to another comment), and while that's understandable, it still benefits nobody. Superlb actually pointed this out, and you responded with something that, in an emotionally deaf medium, seemed both condescending and dismissive. After this you had some decent back and forth -- the main distinction between yourself and the commenters seeming to be where the acceptable level of quality for a Fire Emblem game lies (the "settling for okay" comments). The point where you simply replied to somebody's comment with "No." was the point where I came to the conclusion that "OP is an asshole". A harsh and likely untrue conclusion, which I apologize for. 

Tl;Dr my goal with that comment, as poorly executed as it was, was to cut the bullshit. I did a pretty dumbass job of it, which is what I get for not actually formulating my ideas before I rub my face on the keyboard. 

As for my book, I'm not super far into it right now, only around 20k words due to multiple rewrites (I've finally settled onto a set of world mechanics I like, and I've reworked a few characters to feel more genuine and flawed). Original fantasy setting, I've written out a tentative history and I'm wavering about how defined I want my landscape to be before writing it out. I really like my starting point, so I'm finally at a place to move forward with plot. If it turns out anywhere near how I want it to, it should be a pretty good debut novel. Which means it will likely result in a decent fantasy novel, but a debut work is never going to be perfect. 

-------------------------------

To detour into the original thread topic, I think Echoes is well received largely due to presentation -- the art looks fantastic, the OST is my favorite in the franchise, I really enjoyed the voice acting aspects even though some people had some reasonable complaints with it. I enjoyed the rather bland gameplay actually, but more from the perspective that I could actually imagine armies clashing on a more realistic battlefield. It is still definitely near the bottom of the barrel in terms of engaging FE gameplay. The only truly hard map was Nuibaba's fucking abode because the best way to deal with that map is to Warp/Rescue cheese it, which is gimmicky and annoying. 

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7 hours ago, UNLEASH IT said:

I didn't find Echoes' cast particularly good per se, but I found them (for the most part) inoffensive. There's only so much you can do with such limited dialogue, and a few characters in the cast suffer from having only 1-2 supports (Kliff, Mathilda, Faye, etc.). I'm not saying that we need to return to the Fates and Awakening style-every character has 20 supports but 1-2 supports per character and 4 for the lords just isn't enough. And the base conversations didn't make up for it, since they were just every character dumping exposition on you through Alm and Celica's perspective, with no actual conversation taking place.

Anyway my main problem with Echoes isn't with it's plot or characters, but with its gameplay. The only game that's worse in that aspect is Revelation

agreed wholeheartedly here cause as I said before with these characters is what you see is what you get. 

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15 minutes ago, Mandokarla said:

My goal wasn't to get you in trouble, I don't get a kick out of that. My phrasing was, upon review, pretty blunt and shitty myself, so I am also wrong here. This thread was on a topic I was/am interested in (I enjoyed Echoes, but I will never claim it is the best FE on any scale aside from presentation), but your responses to a lot of other people looked pretty shitty from my perspective. It is not debate, it is the manner the debate is conducted. You (understandably) responded to hostility with more hostility (your first response to another comment), and while that's understandable, it still benefits nobody. Superlb actually pointed this out, and you responded with something that, in an emotionally deaf medium, seemed both condescending and dismissive. After this you had some decent back and forth -- the main distinction between yourself and the commenters seeming to be where the acceptable level of quality for a Fire Emblem game lies (the "settling for okay" comments). The point where you simply replied to somebody's comment with "No." was the point where I came to the conclusion that "OP is an asshole". A harsh and likely untrue conclusion, which I apologize for. 

I don't understand. I know this is the internet and you never really know how someone is feeling but I'll say it since I must. I was not angered or offended, I was trying my best to explain my reason for posting this topic. I was saying that I'm well aware that this is my opinion (something I tried very hard to do with the first post and the title itself) and I want discourse, rather than the hyper-defensive knee jerk "that's just your opinion" I usually get when talking about this game, no matter where I bring it up. Rather, I was disappointed that the very first response was just that, but he did explain himself down the line. Now with Superlb, I've only spoken to him in two threads, both regarding this. He did the same thing there as he did here, which I find strange because he has a post in which he got offended when someone did the exact same thing to him, so I don't know why he doesn't understand where I'm coming from. In the last thread, he said it was because he didn't read the whole thing, and apologized. It seems that isn't the case here and he was still confused, so I'm stumped. Apparently he's going to elaborate later. 

The "settling for okay" bit came from people not understanding that I wasn't calling Echoes a bad game. I was confused as to why some people praise it for doing the same things as Awakening/Fates while only criticizing the latter two. I bolded the part I was saying "no" to, and I explained exactly why. It was clearly not "lol, DIs gAem suk!1", IS has been very minimalist with its approach to remakes so far. If you read the article I posted it goes into further detail. 

35 minutes ago, Mandokarla said:

 

Tl;Dr my goal with that comment, as poorly executed as it was, was to cut the bullshit. I did a pretty dumbass job of it, which is what I get for not actually formulating my ideas before I rub my face on the keyboard. 

I hope you didn't feel like I was harassing you, I just wanted to know what was going on. Like, if I had pissed you off somewhere before this. I certainly understand you better, and hopefully you towards me as well. 

38 minutes ago, Mandokarla said:

 

As for my book, I'm not super far into it right now, only around 20k words due to multiple rewrites (I've finally settled onto a set of world mechanics I like, and I've reworked a few characters to feel more genuine and flawed). Original fantasy setting, I've written out a tentative history and I'm wavering about how defined I want my landscape to be before writing it out. I really like my starting point, so I'm finally at a place to move forward with plot. If it turns out anywhere near how I want it to, it should be a pretty good debut novel. Which means it will likely result in a decent fantasy novel, but a debut work is never going to be perfect. 

Sounds neat. Let me know how that comes along if you want to. 

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2 minutes ago, Køkø said:

I don't understand. I know this is the internet and you never really know how someone is feeling but I'll say it since I must. I was not angered or offended, I was trying my best to explain my reason for posting this topic. I was saying that I'm well aware that this is my opinion (something I tried very hard to do with the first post and the title itself) and I want discourse, rather than the hyper-defensive knee jerk "that's just your opinion" I usually get when talking about this game, no matter where I bring it up. Rather, I was disappointed that the very first response was just that, but he did explain himself down the line. Now with Superlb, I've only spoken to him in two threads, both regarding this. He did the same thing there as he did here, which I find strange because he has a post in which he got offended when someone did the exact same thing to him, so I don't know why he doesn't understand where I'm coming from. In the last thread, he said it was because he didn't read the whole thing, and apologized. It seems that isn't the case here and he was still confused, so I'm stumped. Apparently he's going to elaborate later. 

The "settling for okay" bit came from people not understanding that I wasn't calling Echoes a bad game. I was confused as to why some people praise it for doing the same things as Awakening/Fates while only criticizing the latter two. I bolded the part I was saying "no" to, and I explained exactly why. It was clearly not "lol, DIs gAem suk!1", IS has been very minimalist with its approach to remakes so far. If you read the article I posted it goes into further detail. 

I hope you didn't feel like I was harassing you, I just wanted to know what was going on. Like, if I had pissed you off somewhere before this. I certainly understand you better, and hopefully you towards me as well. 

Sounds neat. Let me know how that comes along if you want to. 

I'm glad we were able to talk this out, I'm sorry for the knee-jerk criticism. I feel clearer on it all, and I hope things are good between us. I honestly feel like this was a pretty bad case of Tone Deaf Internet Syndrome -- none of the audible/visual cues in normal conversation. 

The minimalist approach to remakes is pretty accurate. I hope IS is willing to change more things with FE4/5/6 remakes down the line. Rebalancing, changes in mechanics, etc. I think I will go read that article, and the one on the Grimleal piqued my interest as well. 

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9 minutes ago, Mandokarla said:

I'm glad we were able to talk this out, I'm sorry for the knee-jerk criticism. I feel clearer on it all, and I hope things are good between us. I honestly feel like this was a pretty bad case of Tone Deaf Internet Syndrome -- none of the audible/visual cues in normal conversation. 

The minimalist approach to remakes is pretty accurate. I hope IS is willing to change more things with FE4/5/6 remakes down the line. Rebalancing, changes in mechanics, etc. I think I will go read that article, and the one on the Grimleal piqued my interest as well. 

They were never bad. 

I'm a bit afraid for Jugdral to be perfectly honest, but we'll see. And if you like the Grimleal theory, check out his other stuff. Awakening revisions are his forte. 

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Just now, Køkø said:

They were never bad. 

I'm a bit afraid for Jugdral to be perfectly honest, but we'll see. And if you like the Grimleal theory, check out his other stuff. Awakening revisions are his forte. 

The Grimleal theory is fascinating, I'd buy it. It offers a lot of answers and it doesn't interfere with any other canon as far as I know. I'm worried about Jugdral too, but I actually like the massive FE4 maps -- I found them relaxing -- and I'm sure those will get axed. I need to actually finish FE4, I stopped playing two chapters into Gen 2 because I got busy. I haven't played FE5, because the translation patches are...lackluster from what I've seen. I'd like to see the lack of trading in FE4 removed, just because it's an old, obtuse mechanic, but because of certain other mechanics that are built upon, or because of, that feature I'm not sure how that would come about. I feel like FE4 could use some writing tweaks too, just to clean up some of the inconsistencies with the Loptyr cult -- I, for some reason, took it upon myself to dig through a thread talking about them awhile back. That all said, messing with FE4's writing is really risky, and I want it to stay dark and gritty in nature. 

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12 minutes ago, Mandokarla said:

The Grimleal theory is fascinating, I'd buy it. It offers a lot of answers and it doesn't interfere with any other canon as far as I know. I'm worried about Jugdral too, but I actually like the massive FE4 maps -- I found them relaxing -- and I'm sure those will get axed. I need to actually finish FE4, I stopped playing two chapters into Gen 2 because I got busy. I haven't played FE5, because the translation patches are...lackluster from what I've seen. I'd like to see the lack of trading in FE4 removed, just because it's an old, obtuse mechanic, but because of certain other mechanics that are built upon, or because of, that feature I'm not sure how that would come about. I feel like FE4 could use some writing tweaks too, just to clean up some of the inconsistencies with the Loptyr cult -- I, for some reason, took it upon myself to dig through a thread talking about them awhile back. That all said, messing with FE4's writing is really risky, and I want it to stay dark and gritty in nature. 

Well given the minimalist attitude, they likely won't. I like them as well although many people seem not to. I think a rescue command would be able to please everybody. Trading probably won't be added, and the reason being is that FE4's theme is inheritance. I'm sure you've done your research but you'll understand even better once you progress. To be honest, I don't think IS or Nintendo like Judgral. Kaga was more heavily involved here, and they don't even respect him enough to mention his name. The director of Echoes showed zero signs of interest and skipped to Binding Blade. 

Oh and in regard to FE5, I believe there was a translation patch released recently, I'll check on that for you.

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2 minutes ago, Køkø said:

Well given the minimalist attitude, they likely won't. I like them as well although many people seem not to. I think a rescue command would be able to please everybody. Trading probably won't be added, and the reason being is that FE4's theme is inheritance. I'm sure you've done your research but you'll understand even better once you progress. To be honest, I don't think IS or Nintendo like Judgral. Kaga was more heavily involved here, and they don't even respect him enough to mention his name. The director of Echoes showed zero signs of interest and skipped to Binding Blade. 

Oh and in regard to FE5, I believe there was a translation patch released recently, I'll check on that for you.

I'm most concerned that Jugdral will be forever damned to rot in SNES hell. If they never remake Jugdral, that would be a tragedy. 

And thanks, I know there's been a new one in development, so that might be it

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2 minutes ago, Mandokarla said:

I'm most concerned that Jugdral will be forever damned to rot in SNES hell. If they never remake Jugdral, that would be a tragedy. 

And thanks, I know there's been a new one in development, so that might be it

Well I'd rather have no remake than a bad one. Hopefully they get it right. 

There's Zane's and then there's this. 

 

I'm not sure how far along either of them are but hopefully they're done or at least close to being so.

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1 minute ago, Køkø said:

Well I'd rather have no remake than a bad one. Hopefully they get it right. 

There's Zane's and then there's this. 

 

I'm not sure how far along either of them are but hopefully they're done or at least close to being so.

Shit thanks. The one I've seen doesn't translate menus at all, so this looks playable. I'll have to check into these and play FE5 after I finish Fe4. 

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On 3/5/2018 at 2:57 PM, Køkø said:

It's true that this game has more shades of gray, especially in the Gods' case. And that Fernand had the potential to be a great character (they should have saved him for a different game). It's a shame that the other half of his character is locked behind DLC. But I don't agree on Berkut or Judah. The former doesn't do anything all game but whine about how awesome Alm is, making him overall an accessory to Alm rather than his own character. He then goes on to sacrifice his lover (who isn't a real character either but an accessory to an accessory) in exchange for power and still loses, lol. After this, we're still supposed to feel sorry for him and Rinea forgives him and they go to heaven together or something. Ew. And about that power thing, Rigel seems to want itself to be meritocracy but Berkut is fundamentally opposed to that, instead believing in birthright. And he's proven to be correct because Alm beats him solely due to the fact his blood is more special.

Well, Berkut's case is more on how we didn't get to see exactly how he had been raised. But his parents clearly filled his head with two things:

1) Berkut was the current sole heir to the throne, and therefore it was his birthright. He was "destined" to be great.

2) As per how Rigel runs, you have to be strong no matter what. 

The second part would have actually been more well placed if we had actually seen Berkut's previous accomplishments, really show off how powerful he really was. All we really had was him, Fernand, and some other guy fight Alm's army and though they lost, Alm said that the fight was incredibly tough.This doesn't show the power that Berkut really has. However, Berkut still does represent what kind of state that Rigel is in. It says that Rigel has lost its kind heart, but it really never gave us the idea of what happens for the weak in Rigel. What kind of mind state do they have? 

If strength defines who you are, and there could be a case of how the royalties are probably supposed to be the strongest, then losing is an insult, and how if you are weak, then you are nothing. There was a really great story here, but because it was trying too hard to be loyal, they didn't expand chapters when they actually could have. Or Memory Prisms to show some of young Berkut's days. 

I do admit that the case on Alm being royalty in the end sort of hurts the lesson that was trying to be imposed on in the beginning. Alm believed he was just a villager, not royalty or anything. And his only connection to a higher standing was that of his grandfather Mycen. And in regards to Delthea, he tries to preach that a life of a princess or noble is the exact same as the life of some commoner. It's a nice lesson, and speaking in technicalities, its true. One life is equal to one life. 

However, how much can you back that up when you realize that Alm is in fact royal blood? He's the son of the Emperor of Rigel. Hard to actually preach that blood matters not when your charisma and natural talents and skill could in fact be attributed to being of noble blood.

Rinea is... just there. She's meant to act as the human side to Berkut. This side of him where he is not some ruthless villain, but actually has a connection to kindness. But rather, its the act of how Rigel's philosophies pushed Berkut's mental state to its limit, that madness drove him to sever what's left of his humanity. Because to him, Rinea's attempts to console him sounded more like she actually looked down on his strength, when he has always believed that strength meant everything. So when even the woman he loved sounded like she was belittling him in his madness, he just lost it. And it really doesn't help that Duma was in fact calling to him, influencing him with a seductive whisper, the promise of great power.

But you know, all the power you have means nothing when you no longer have the heart to push it through. Berkut was mad at this point. He had become the human embodiment of what Duma's philosophies represents, madness for power to the point of losing your heart. Duma himself is a subject of degeneration though. 

On 3/5/2018 at 2:57 PM, Køkø said:

As for Judah, you gotta help me here man. How in the world is Judah not evil? 

Jedah is rather evil, in both looks and actions. However, he genuinely believes that the gods need to stay forever or else Valentia would perish. He is an extremist that will fulfill Duma's wishes. The thing about Jedah is that he is also a victim of Duma's own philosophies, and because Jedah stayed so close to Duma, Duma's own growing madness could actually had made Jedah grow mad as well. This madness is born from believing that he must keep sating Duma's growing madness, find a way to cure his ill master, no matter what. 

Because if Duma dies, what will become of Valentia? That's the thought process Jedah likely followed. The more desperate he becomes, offering more lives, the more disconnected he becomes with his own humanity, to the point that he will slaughter any number of lives to accomplish the goal. 

One theory as to why Celica even listened to Jedah is that the moment that Jedah told Celica that she needs to be offered or else Valentia would be destroyed, it planted a seed inside her heart, and Celica if even for a moment, considered offering herself. This caused Celica's own soul to be pulled by Duma, where more and more she was drawing closer to becoming a witch herself. All that was needed was for Jedah to suggest it and that stuck to Celica, so that she believes more and more that she needs to offer herself for the sake of Valentia.

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On 3/7/2018 at 3:58 PM, Køkø said:

The "settling for okay" bit came from people not understanding that I wasn't calling Echoes a bad game. I was confused as to why some people praise it for doing the same things as Awakening/Fates while only criticizing the latter two. I bolded the part I was saying "no" to, and I explained exactly why. It was clearly not "lol, DIs gAem suk!1", IS has been very minimalist with its approach to remakes so far. If you read the article I posted it goes into further detail.

Generally, when I see a topic title like this, it's someone who has an opinion, and is looking for a fight.

This, on the other hand, is something that is worth discussing.  The answer boils down to "what annoys you about each game".  For me:

- Awakening had a bunch of different stories going on, with very little cohesion.  Fates required additional purchases for each story.  SoV has one story from two different points of view, with some crappy plot allowances.
- Both Fates and Awakening had a bunch of people supporting each other, with highly mixed results.  SoV's supports are limited to pairs that (mostly) make sense.
- Children.  'nuff said.  At least Awakening's excuse was stomachable.
- All three games have maps that are totally unfun.
- SoV had no avatar.  It's refreshing.

If you want to see all hell break loose in the other direction, take a look at how the FFVII remake is being received.

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1 hour ago, omegaxis1 said:

 

The second part would have actually been more well placed if we had actually seen Berkut's previous accomplishments, really show off how powerful he really was. All we really had was him, Fernand, and some other guy fight Alm's army and though they lost, Alm said that the fight was incredibly tough.This doesn't show the power that Berkut really has. However, Berkut still does represent what kind of state that Rigel is in. It says that Rigel has lost its kind heart, but it really never gave us the idea of what happens for the weak in Rigel. What kind of mind state do they have? 

If strength defines who you are, and there could be a case of how the royalties are probably supposed to be the strongest, then losing is an insult, and how if you are weak, then you are nothing. There was a really great story here, but because it was trying too hard to be loyal, they didn't expand chapters when they actually could have. Or Memory Prisms to show some of young Berkut's days. 

Thank you. 

I think I remember seeing someone say that Berkut should have been given some scenes akin to Zephiel and the BK. That is, something to show us how big of threat this guy is. We don't see Berkut actually do anything. As far as what happens to the weak, this goes back to what I said about SOV only expanding on Gaiden superficially, graphics, audio and the like. I'm completely confused as to why Berkut didn't even get a Memory Prism to flesh him out. The worst part about it is that I actually wanted to like him. I keep seeing him being called the best FE villain, and I'm like what? He's as shallow as Garon, yet I only see criticism directed towards the latter. To be honest, most of the praise seems to be result of his voice, which was decent. 

1 hour ago, omegaxis1 said:

 

Jedah is rather evil, in both looks and actions. However, he genuinely believes that the gods need to stay forever or else Valentia would perish. He is an extremist that will fulfill Duma's wishes. The thing about Jedah is that he is also a victim of Duma's own philosophies, and because Jedah stayed so close to Duma, Duma's own growing madness could actually had made Jedah grow mad as well. This madness is born from believing that he must keep sating Duma's growing madness, find a way to cure his ill master, no matter what. 

Because if Duma dies, what will become of Valentia? That's the thought process Jedah likely followed. The more desperate he becomes, offering more lives, the more disconnected he becomes with his own humanity, to the point that he will slaughter any number of lives to accomplish the goal. 

The thing is, we don't how long Duma's been insane. As I said before, Jedeh's sect seems to worship post degenerated Duma, rather than pre. It's even mentioned that he usurped the previous high priest's spot, and from what we see of him he's nothing like Jedeh or his sect. But that's an interesting theory nonetheless.  I keep seeing people say he cares about Valentia, and I don't understand. It's clear that he has no love for Zofia, or Mila so that's out. He tortures and kills his own countrymen as well. The only thing he cares about is Duma.  

1 hour ago, omegaxis1 said:

 

One theory as to why Celica even listened to Jedah is that the moment that Jedah told Celica that she needs to be offered or else Valentia would be destroyed, it planted a seed inside her heart, and Celica if even for a moment, considered offering herself. This caused Celica's own soul to be pulled by Duma, where more and more she was drawing closer to becoming a witch herself. All that was needed was for Jedah to suggest it and that stuck to Celica, so that she believes more and more that she needs to offer herself for the sake of Valentia.

Another interesting theory. You know, the fact that the fanbase has to come up with theories to explain things shows just how lazy the writers have gotten.  

 

 

 

 

1 hour ago, eclipse said:

Generally, when I see a topic title like this, it's someone who has an opinion, and is looking for a fight.

This, on the other hand, is something that is worth discussing.  The answer boils down to "what annoys you about each game".  For me:

- Awakening had a bunch of different stories going on, with very little cohesion.  Fates required additional purchases for each story.  SoV has one story from two different points of view, with some crappy plot allowances.
- Both Fates and Awakening had a bunch of people supporting each other, with highly mixed results.  SoV's supports are limited to pairs that (mostly) make sense.
- Children.  'nuff said.  At least Awakening's excuse was stomachable.
- All three games have maps that are totally unfun.
- SoV had no avatar.  It's refreshing.

If you want to see all hell break loose in the other direction, take a look at how the FFVII remake is being received.

I agree that Echoes lacks all of this with the exception of the second (Slightly, as DLC is required for full understanding of some characters) and the fourth. Why do you think people like Alm but hate Corrin? 

Edit: Sorry about the double post, at first I tried putting this in the above but it didn't register for some reason. I tried it again via editing but it made it separate. 

Edited by Køkø
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16 minutes ago, Køkø said:

I agree that Echoes lacks all of this with the exception of the second (Slightly, as DLC is required for full understanding of some characters) and the fourth. Why do you think people like Alm but hate Corrin? 

Edit: Sorry about the double post, at first I tried putting this in the above but it didn't register for some reason. I tried it again via editing but it made it separate. 

The little plus sign next to Quote allows you to quote multiple posts.  Pretty handy and all.

Corrin never suffers consequences for their actions.  Alm, at least, pisses off Celica.

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14 minutes ago, Køkø said:

Thank you. 

I think I remember seeing someone say that Berkut should have been given some scenes akin to Zephiel and the BK. That is, something to show us how big of threat this guy is. We don't see Berkut actually do anything. As far as what happens to the weak, this goes back to what I said about SOV only expanding on Gaiden superficially, graphics, audio and the like. I'm completely confused as to why Berkut didn't even get a Memory Prism. The worst part about it is that I actually wanted to like him. I keep seeing him being called the best FE villain, and I'm like what? He's as shallow as Garon, yet I only see criticism directed towards the latter. To be honest, most of the praise seems to be result of his voice, which was decent. 

Oh Berkut did, but it was his first meeting with Rinea. Honestly, the DLC that had multiple maps where we played as Fernand and the Zofian Knights, I felt could easily have been used for cases where Berkut had to quell some cases, like a rebellion, led by this former knight that was really strong. Berkut finds and bests this guy and his army by himself and a few men, which would be a great display of his power, and could also show his own case of being rather unhinged.

The voice acting is precisely what gave Berkut such wonderful characterization. The display of hopelessness, madness, and grief is what made him be so loved. For me, Fernand was much better displayed, and the DLC truly displayed that, with how Fernand displayed a kinder self, and how he truly was looking forward to the new addition to his family. But then we see his most depressed state, how he lost his family, and how he envied the fact that Clive still at least had his sister. The Memory Prisms also greatly showed how Fernand interacted with Mathilda and Clair, and just how much he did care for Clive. 

20 minutes ago, Køkø said:

The thing is, we don't how long Duma's been insane. As I said before, Jedeh's sect seems to worship post degenerated Duma, rather than pre. It's even mentioned that he usurped the previous high priest's spot, and from what we see of him he's nothing like Jedeh or his sect. But that's an interesting theory nonetheless.  I keep seeing people say he cares about Valentia, and I don't understand. It's clear that he has no love for Zofia, or Mila so that's out. He tortures and kills his own countrymen as well. The only thing he cares about is Duma.  

Actually, it's been implied in the memory prism with Rudolf and Mycen. Rudolf just had Alm, and showed the Brand to Mycen, and mentioned about Duma's growing madness. It's possible that it just begun or the signs are just starting to show now. So that means for the next 17 years, Duma just continued to degenerate more and more. It isn't shown when Jedah entered the picture, but you know, Jedah likely had this wild fanaticism. Him trying to replace the last high priest is more of a testament of how much he worships Duma. Him caring for Duma is because Duma is power incarnate. Rigel is founded on the principle that power is everything, so what greater power is there than Duma? 

When you have this kind of fanatic faith on someone, you will be driven mad. Lots of religious lore IRL even has it said that the devil was the angel closest to god. So Jedah being the closest to Duma, it was precisely this that made Jedah fall all the more insane. If its for Duma's sake, slaughtering a couple hundred or even thousands of people is nothing. 

He detests Mila, because she is the goddess that opposes Duma. Of course he wouldn't care for her. 

26 minutes ago, Køkø said:

Another interesting theory. You know, the fact that the fanbase has to come up with theories to explain things shows just how lazy the writers have gotten.  

I wouldn't say its lazy. The writers did make a major effort in trying to help fill in gaps. And everything about Act VI is still a stroke of genius, really helping us see what Grima really is, which in my opinion adds a stronger sense of terror from him than before.

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33 minutes ago, eclipse said:

The little plus sign next to Quote allows you to quote multiple posts.  Pretty handy and all.

Corrin never suffers consequences for their actions.  Alm, at least, pisses off Celica.

Yeah I know. I tried doing that initially and it only had my replies to omegaxis1 when I hit submit. I tried to go back in and edit but it made a separate post. 

I see. The few constant criticisms I do see toward SOV is that the argument between the two was very contrived and unnecessary. It's not like it's permanent though, as they get married and have a happily ever after ending.  There is no good way to justify the plan to take down Garon in Conquest but Corrin loses both Ryoma and Takumi as a result of this decision. So that's a plus for that game at least, strangely it's the one that has the worst story to do this. 

I keep seeing Alm's praises come as a result of his personality. Do you not find them identical to Corrin's, or even to the vast majority of lords in the series? 

24 minutes ago, omegaxis1 said:

 

I wouldn't say its lazy. The writers did make a major effort in trying to help fill in gaps. And everything about Act VI is still a stroke of genius, really helping us see what Grima really is, which in my opinion adds a stronger sense of terror from him than before.

I've said this before, but not on here. Awakening got more backstory in this game then Gaiden did. I don't like or understand this.

Edited by Køkø
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6 minutes ago, Køkø said:

I see. The few constant criticisms I do see toward SOV is that the argument between the two was very contrived and unnecessary. It's not like it's permanent though, as they get married and have a happily ever after ending.  There is no good way to justify the plan to take down Garon in Conquest but Corrin loses both Ryoma and Takumi as a result of this decision. So that's a plus for that game at least, strangely it's the one that has the worst story to do this. 

I keep seeing Alm's praises come as a result of his personality. Do you not find them identical to Corrin's, or even to the vast majority of lords in the series? 

Both Ryoma and Takumi say that they believe in Corrin before they bite the dust.  Corrin does no wrong in their eyes.  It's bad storytelling.

I don't have much of an opinion of Alm, because my attention is on Lukas.  I know he's not handled as heavy-handedly as Corrin was, and most of the nonsense we see was present Way Back When FE2 would've been considered decent storytelling.

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