I Need Help Understanding.....

[Køkø]

Why do people think this game doesn't suffer from the same flaws as the rest of the 3DS games? It has great graphics, yeah. But that's it. I mean it's not like Gaiden had a good story or gameplay to begin with. Is there something I'm just not seeing?

[Modamy]

For story, I think people see good non fanservicey character designs and hear good voice acting and just feel like everything is alright without actually noticing the crippling flaws this game's narrative and cast actually have.

[Azz]

Obviously SoV has issues, every FE game has, and anyone who says it doesn't are just in denial and ignorant, like the people who claim Awakening and Fates as perfect.

18 minutes ago, Køkø said:

Why do people think this game doesn't suffer from the same flaws as the rest of the 3DS games? It has great graphics, yeah. But that's it. I mean it's not like Gaiden had a good story or gameplay to begin with. Is there something I'm just not seeing?

Bold-That's your opinion. IMO, SoV has by far the best story out of the 3DS games alongside some of the best characters, both personality wise and design wise. You obviously disagree and that's fine, but you seem to state your opinion as fact, which it is not, it is your opinion, and that seems to be part of your problem.

[Køkø]

7 minutes ago, Modamy said:

For story, I think people see good non fanservicey character designs and hear good voice acting and just feel like everything is alright without actually noticing the crippling flaws this game's narrative and cast actually have.

I've said something to this effect before. 

4 minutes ago, Azz said:

 

Bold-That's your opinion. IMO, SoV has by far the best story out of the 3DS games alongside some of the best characters, both personality wise and design wise. You obviously disagree and that's fine, but you seem to state your opinion as fact, which it is not, it is your opinion, and that seems to be part of your problem.

XD, that's funny. 

You know, the fact that the title of this thread is "I Need Help Understanding Something" indicates to most people (I hope) that I want someone to change my mind or at least make me reconsider, naturally meaning I know it's my opinion and that other people do not share it. Be a good sport and actually tell me why you think the way you do instead getting hostile like most people every time I criticize this game, yeah?

[SuperIb]

Basically what Azz said. I mean for me, I think that SoV has the best story and characters compared to the other games. To me, the other games have far more flaws. But ultimately, it's a matter of preference.

I think what you're missing is just the fact that you didn't enjoy the game as much compared to other people and the other 3DS games, and are confused as to why people praise it despite you not thinking it was "all that". Again, it really just comes down to opinion, and some people just seem to enjoy SoV over the other 3DS games.

1 minute ago, Køkø said:

Be a good sport and actually tell me why you think the way you do instead getting hostile like most people every time I criticize this game, yeah?

He wasn't really hostile and it did come off as you making an objective statement. Making a response like this actually sounds hostile. And no, the topic title did not make it instantly sound subjective. Remember, people interpret things differently. Your intent doesn't equate to what is understood.

[Køkø]

7 minutes ago, SuperIb said:

Basically what Azz said. I mean for me, I think that SoV has the best story and characters compared to the other games. To me, the other games have far more flaws. But ultimately, it's a matter of preference.

Go into detail please. 

7 minutes ago, SuperIb said:

 

He wasn't really hostile and it did come off as you making an objective statement. Making a response like this actually sounds hostile. And no, the topic title did not make it instantly sound subjective. Remember, people interpret things differently. Your intent doesn't equate to what is understood.

The title literally says, "I Need Help Understanding Something".  I also said, 

41 minutes ago, Køkø said:

Is there something I'm just not seeing?

Now this isn't the first time you've misunderstood me regarding this but last time it was because you said you didn't read. If this applies here as well please do. 

Edited March 5, 2018 by Køkø

[omegaxis1]

19 minutes ago, Azz said:

Obviously SoV has issues, every FE game has, and anyone who says it doesn't are just in denial and ignorant, like the people who claim Awakening and Fates as perfect.

Or people claiming that the Jugdral and Tellius series are perfect, as there are those as well. 

42 minutes ago, Køkø said:

Why do people think this game doesn't suffer from the same flaws as the rest of the 3DS games? It has great graphics, yeah. But that's it. I mean it's not like Gaiden had a good story or gameplay to begin with. Is there something I'm just not seeing?

Fanservice is a big case here. It does not get all up in your face about it, and the only two characters that I feel are fanservice were Mathilda and Sonya, but both of them were actually tame, as they only showed some cleavage, but were still geared for battle that suited to their style, with Mathilda being a knight and Sonya a mage. 

Another case that I think that helped with them is that this had a much more solid story, and there wasn't a case of someone being pure evil or pure good. And the villains weren't terrible either. I mean, Fernand is clearly shown in the very beginning to be a douche with a stick shoved up real high in his ass. But by the end of it, I am pretty sure a lot of people were sad at his death. Berkut is shown to be just as arrogant as Fernand, but he gets mental breakdown over the feeling of weakness, which perfectly illustrates just how a nation that ran under the belief that power is everything can break a person's mind. 

Even Jedah isn't considered pure evil, as everything he does is purely because he believes the gods are needed, and he worships Duma and seeks to keep his madness in check.

[SuperIb]

12 minutes ago, Køkø said:

Go into detail please. 

The title literally says, "I Need Help Understanding Something".  I also said, 

Now this isn't the first time you've misunderstood me regarding this but last time it was because you said you didn't read. If this applies here as well please do. 

I know the title "literally says" that. I know you asked "is there something I'm just not seeing". I responded to both of those. What else do you want me to say?

As far as going into details, maybe later. I just saw this topic pop-up and made a quick response since I didn't think I'd need to go into great depth. Anywho, I'm gonna do school things now. Ttyl.

[Zapp Branniglenn]

@Køkø 

Maybe this thread would be more productive if you defined what the "flaws of the 3DS games" even are? Otherwise everybody is just going to keep talking past each other.

[Azz]

3 minutes ago, Køkø said:

I've said something to this effect before. 

XD, that's funny. 

You know, the fact that the title of this thread is "I Need Help Understanding Something" indicates to most people (I hope) that I want someone to change my mind or at least make me reconsider, naturally meaning I know it's my opinion and that other people do not share it. Be a good sport and actually tell me why you think the way you do instead getting hostile like most people every time I criticize this game, yeah?

I don't know how I was being hostile but okay.

Here's why IMO, SoV has the best story:

In FEA, the whole Valm arc is pretty much filler. It is incredibly boring and just shows that they tried to cram way too much in when the game would have been completely serviceable with the Plegia and Grima arcs. It also doesn't help that the kids also deter the plot since you have to stop the plot in order to recruit and them and narratively, it makes little sense. Also the fact Robin steals the spotlight from Chrom in last arc is quite aggravating since Chrom is pretty interesting but his personal development as a character is put on the back burner in exchange for the story, which as I said, isn't the best.

Fates is pretty much all over the place. Birthright is extremely simple and actually quite contradictory. I mean Hoshido is the defending country against Nohr, a highly militarised country but a soon as Corrin comes home, they are easily able to go on the offensive? I makes no sense. Also the fact your blood siblings, the whole reason you choose Hoshido, aren't your blood siblings is stupid and makes no sense. Though I will say one thing, BR does make me the most emotional since I believe it is the only one of the three paths to pull off the major character deaths (Excpe Kaze's which is bullshit).

Conquest, has IMO, the most interesting premise but it completely flops. You really don't do any revolutionising until later in the plot when the game is over. However, you revolutionising Nohr comes at the cost of: Invading Hoshido, killing two of your 'blood' siblings, the killing of thousands of innocent Hoshidans etc. It just completely goes against everything that was advertised. It doesn't help Corrin constantly whines about how they regret siding with Nohr. What a great way to set up a grey conflict.

I'm not gonna even talk about Rev since it has been beaten like a dead horse and I am also least familiar with it's story since I only played it once.

Then we come to SoV which does the following:

-Sets up a genuine grey conflict where we clearly see neither nation is in the right or wrong, they are both at fault.

-Has (For the most part) compelling villains that feel real and aren't just evil cause evil. Rudolf does what he does to help Alm kill the gods so Valentia doesn't die, Berkut, having been so corrupted by Rigel's values ends up going crazy after everything he lived and trained for was moot and Jedah who is simply a man who thinks the world can't last without gods. Yeah Jedah is probably the most evil for the sake of evil character in the game and is the worst antagonist in SoV, but he is leagues better then Validar or Garon in that he has a somewhat identifiable, albeit, wrong, motivation.

-Has a colourful cast of characters that don't rely completely on tropes to be colourful. I will say that I overall like the 3DS FE cast, however, many of them do seem tropy at first glance whereas the majority of SoV's cast do not. I also like how there is no blatant fan service character. Yes Sonya and Mathilda are busty and show it off, it's no where near Camilla or how Tharja is treated nowadays. Yes we also have Faye, but she is rejected, unlike Tharja and Camilla, and somewhat has her arc come full circle.

-Has two great lords. I adore Alm and Celica. Alm is extremely likeable and dorky. Yes, many are quick to point out his lack of flaws but I don't think you neccasarily need to flawedto be a good character as long as you develop and Alm does. He also fulfils his role in the plot of showing that your station of birth doesn't define your worth. Yes Alm is the prince of Rigel and yes it is not hidden well. However, for the majority of the games, the cast still believes Alm to be a commoner yet he leads the Deliverance to success after success despite this.

As for Celica, she is by far the most human lord in FE IMO, besides maybe Leif. She struggles and does what nearly everyone would do in her shoes. Many say her trusting Jedah was stupid and naive, but as far as Celica is concerned, Jedah is just a faithful priest who doesn't want his god to die, much like her. He being secretive makes sense as she feels the responsibility of Valentia is on her shoulders. Not only is she the princess of Valentia, she is one of the destined children, the only ones who can save Valentia.

While neither are the best protags or my favourites, that title going to Marth, with Leif in close second, they are great none the less and I feel people give them a lot of flack for no reason.

As for gameplay, it is an acquired taste. I like it cause I like JRPGs and dungeon crawlers and I also like SRPGs. I also find the simplicity refreshing after Conquest, while a great game gameplay wise, it is nice to have a break while also having gameplay that isn't overly simple like Birthright and Awakening.

I don't know if this is gonna change your mind but since you asked for it here.

[Køkø]

8 minutes ago, omegaxis1 said:

 

Fanservice is a big case here. It does not get all up in your face about it, and the only two characters that I feel are fanservice were Mathilda and Sonya, but both of them were actually tame, as they only showed some cleavage, but were still geared for battle that suited to their style, with Mathilda being a knight and Sonya a mage. 

Hey there, good to see you in here.  

I have said that the graphics from battle animations to character portraits are great. 

9 minutes ago, omegaxis1 said:

 

Another case that I think that helped with them is that this had a much more solid story, and there wasn't a case of someone being pure evil or pure good. And the villains weren't terrible either. I mean, Fernand is clearly shown in the very beginning to be a douche with a stick shoved up real high in his ass. But by the end of it, I am pretty sure a lot of people were sad at his death. Berkut is shown to be just as arrogant as Fernand, but he gets mental breakdown over the feeling of weakness, which perfectly illustrates just how a nation that ran under the belief that power is everything can break a person's mind.  

Even Jedah isn't considered pure evil, as everything he does is purely because he believes the gods are needed, and he worships Duma and seeks to keep his madness in check.

It's true that this game has more shades of gray, especially in the Gods' case. And that Fernand had the potential to be a great character (they should have saved him for a different game). It's a shame that the other half of his character is locked behind DLC. But I don't agree on Berkut or Judah. The former doesn't do anything all game but whine about how awesome Alm is, making him overall an accessory to Alm rather than his own character. He then goes on to sacrifice his lover (who isn't a real character either but an accessory to an accessory) in exchange for power and still loses, lol. After this, we're still supposed to feel sorry for him and Rinea forgives him and they go to heaven together or something. Ew. And about that power thing, Rigel seems to want itself to be meritocracy but Berkut is fundamentally opposed to that, instead believing in birthright. And he's proven to be correct because Alm beats him solely due to the fact his blood is more special.

As for Judah, you gotta help me here man. How in the world is Judah not evil? 

10 minutes ago, SuperIb said:

 

As far as going into details, maybe later. I just saw this topic pop-up and made a quick response since I didn't think I'd need to go into great depth. Anywho, I'm gonna do school things now. Ttyl.

Okay. 

3 minutes ago, Glennstavos said:

@Køkø 

Maybe this thread would be more productive if you defined what the "flaws of the 3DS games" even are? Otherwise everybody is just going to keep talking past each other.

Should have put this up there initially. Here's an article that more or less says what I think of this game. Oddly, it seems to be the only one. 

http://killapenguin.com/gamereviews/fireemblemechoesshadowsofvalentia/ 

And honestly, do I need to go into Awakening/Fates issues for the millionth time? I'm sure everyone knows exactly what I'm talking about, especially the latter because it's shit on religiously in most FE communities. Like I wanna know, why do people hate Corrin but love Alm when they're nearly identical? 

6 minutes ago, Azz said:

I don't know how I was being hostile but okay.

The fact the you insulted me by saying that I was arrogant enough to believe that my word is law even though I made it perfectly what I was doing was enough for me. Maybe "hostile" isn't entirely accurate? How do you like "knee jerk"?  

9 minutes ago, Azz said:

 

-Sets up a genuine grey conflict where we clearly see neither nation is in the right or wrong, they are both at fault.

-Has (For the most part) compelling villains that feel real and aren't just evil cause evil. Rudolf does what he does to help Alm kill the gods so Valentia doesn't die, Berkut, having been so corrupted by Rigel's values ends up going crazy after everything he lived and trained for was moot and Jedah who is simply a man who thinks the world can't last without gods. Yeah Jedah is probably the most evil for the sake of evil character in the game and is the worst antagonist in SoV, but he is leagues better then Validar or Garon in that he has a somewhat identifiable, albeit, wrong, motivation.

-Has a colourful cast of characters that don't rely completely on tropes to be colourful. I will say that I overall like the 3DS FE cast, however, many of them do seem tropy at first glance whereas the majority of SoV's cast do not. I also like how there is no blatant fan service character. Yes Sonya and Mathilda are busty and show it off, it's no where near Camilla or how Tharja is treated nowadays. Yes we also have Faye, but she is rejected, unlike Tharja and Camilla, and somewhat has her arc come full circle.

-Has two great lords. I adore Alm and Celica. Alm is extremely likeable and dorky. Yes, many are quick to point out his lack of flaws but I don't think you neccasarily need to flawedto be a good character as long as you develop and Alm does. He also fulfils his role in the plot of showing that your station of birth doesn't define your worth. Yes Alm is the prince of Rigel and yes it is not hidden well. However, for the majority of the games, the cast still believes Alm to be a commoner yet he leads the Deliverance to success after success despite this.

As for Celica, she is by far the most human lord in FE IMO, besides maybe Leif. She struggles and does what nearly everyone would do in her shoes. Many say her trusting Jedah was stupid and naive, but as far as Celica is concerned, Jedah is just a faithful priest who doesn't want his god to die, much like her. He being secretive makes sense as she feels the responsibility of Valentia is on her shoulders. Not only is she the princess of Valentia, she is one of the destined children, the only ones who can save Valentia.

While neither are the best protags or my favourites, that title going to Marth, with Leif in close second, they are great none the less and I feel people give them a lot of flack for no reason.

As for gameplay, it is an acquired taste. I like it cause I like JRPGs and dungeon crawlers and I also like SRPGs. I also find the simplicity refreshing after Conquest, while a great game gameplay wise, it is nice to have a break while also having gameplay that isn't overly simple like Birthright and Awakening.

I don't know if this is gonna change your mind but since you asked for it here.

- I have agreed with this. 

- I have addressed Berkut and Judah above with @omegaxis1. By the way, he's identical to Validar. Let me just tell you this now, there is no way you can convince me that Rudolph's plan wasn't the most contrived bullshit. You can try, it'd be entertaining at least. Even the most ardent fans of this title concede with me there. 

- Colorful how? Alm is one the most boring lords in the series. They did a good job with his village friends, yes. Honestly, their gang would be better off without Alm, who's an attention sponge and is "The Chosen One". Tobin outright tells Alm to his face that he's inferior to him in a fashion that even Corrin's games lack. And why the hell can't Alm support with anything of them save for Faye of all people? We've also got a loli, a yandere, a tsundere, whatever the hell Forsyth's trope is called... People would have hated Mae is she was a Fates character. I'm basically saying this game has its fair share of "anime". The rest are pretty tame though, like Lukas, but it's not enough to save this game. 

- I'll say this as mildly as I can, the "dorkiness", as you put it, appeals to very "specific" audience. Not accusing you of anything or insulting, but I lack the specific wording to describe it. You either get it or you don't. You're correct that a character doesn't need massive flaws to be good, but Alm does not feel human at all. He's just as inhumanly compassionate and perfect as Corrin, but at least Corrin has not being entirely human on their side. 

And Echoes Celica's actions are inexcusable. There is nothing subtle about Judah at all, and I would have no complaints if had at least employed some form of deception. Can you tell me for what reason was she being secretive? It's exactly like Azura. I have to admit, I am glad to see that people do call out Celica , even the ardent fans. Humans are stupid many times, but Celica is borderline retarded, like actually. What's worse is that it's a step down from the original, she was one of the few characters that subverted the damsel thing. SOV decides not only to give her damsel status but amp it up to 10 by creating Conrad. 

You say people give them to much flack but that's only directed towards Celica, while people love Alm.

47 minutes ago, Azz said:

 

As for gameplay, it is an acquired taste. I like it cause I like JRPGs and dungeon crawlers and I also like SRPGs. I also find the simplicity refreshing after Conquest, while a great game gameplay wise, it is nice to have a break while also having gameplay that isn't overly simple like Birthright and Awakening.

I don't know if this is gonna change your mind but since you asked for it here.

Oh yes, I'm well aware. This is coming from someone who likes Gaiden, I have occasional cravings for pain you see. I actually just beat Gaiden for the ?th time yesterday, which inspired this topic. 

You haven't quite yet, but you could get somewhere with a future post. I appreciate you taking the time out of your day to talk with me about this.

[Etrurian emperor]

The story of Echoes isn't perfect but unlike Fates it isn't a trainwreck and unlike Awakening it isn't generic and painfully rushed. We must also take into account that its pretty much a NES story and take that into consideration when we look at the story. Unlike Shadow Dragon the game actually made a very solid effort but its origin does constrain the story to some degree.

But part of the sentiment that the story is so much better is because Echoes goes back on a lot of FE3ds tropes that annoyed fans of the older games. The characters are more nuanced and capable of expressing a personality without being over the top, world building exists again and the villains at least function. Its a more grounded medieval story rather than a wacky anime. Even for people that aren't hostile to the new style it must have been a breath of fresh air. 

The villains are finally at least decent! We're no longer stuck with the trainwreck villains of Fates or the Awakening villains who had practically nothing to them. Jedah is hardly the greatest villain ever written but he goes beyond just the bare template of the Gharnef template like they tried with Validar and Iago. There are real reasons for Jedah's actions and he has a surprisingly easy time acting completely reasonably. He's also surprisingly Selfless for a Gharnef.  

Berkut kinda stops working at the end but he's got an imposing presence, a great voice and fairly understandably circumstances up to that point. 

Rufolf's plans doesn't really holds up but....its a plan from a NES game where no one had any real dialogue. Of course it doesn't. When taking that into account I'm willing to give him  a pass. 

Echoes is some sort of happy middle ground. It doesn't get to big for it bridges like Fates but its not as bare bones as Awakening and Birthright, and while its a simple, somewhat formulaic tale it still ensures that a decent, functioning story is still being told. 

Edited March 5, 2018 by Etrurian emperor

[Hawkwing]

2 hours ago, Køkø said:

Why do people think this game doesn't suffer from the same flaws as the rest of the 3DS games? It has great graphics, yeah. But that's it. I mean it's not like Gaiden had a good story or gameplay to begin with. Is there something I'm just not seeing?

Because it's gameplay isn't like the previous games at all?

On a (more) serious note, I've made the comparison before that if Gaiden was Zelda 2, then Shadows of Valentia is Skyward Sword, in the sense that what people liked and didn't like will be different between each person, and to varying degrees on top of that. Some people enjoyed the story, and others were understandably annoyed by it's flaws, while still others merely saw it as ok. Similarly, some people really enjoyed the gameplay, others hated it, and some just thought it was a nice diversion. SoV is one of those games where everyone will have a differing opinion over it, even if some of them do overlap.

 

[Shoblongoo]

44 minutes ago, Etrurian emperor said:

The story of Echoes isn't perfect but unlike Fates it isn't a trainwreck 

^^^
This. Echoes has its flaws, like any other game, but they're flaws within the generally acceptable parameters of "that could have been done better, that's lazy, that's been done before--not the most impressive work. But it isn't terrible. They didn't do anything egregiously wrong here." 

...As opposed to "You and your siblings subvert a corrupt kingdom from within. Lol jk; Go win the Hoshidan throne for Garon and fight a slime monster. Justice is an illusion. Give big sister a hug."
 

 


Or "You have chosen your true family over the one that raised you. FYI: if your new family is down-to-fuck, its cool. You're not related." 

Edited March 5, 2018 by Shoblongoo

[Køkø]

46 minutes ago, Køkø said:

 

EDIT: "clear" 

           "too" 

 

44 minutes ago, Etrurian emperor said:

 

But part of the sentiment that the story is so much better is because Echoes goes back on a lot of FE3ds tropes that annoyed fans of the older games. The characters are more nuanced and capable of expressing a personality without being over the top, world building exists again and the villains at least function. Its a more grounded medieval story rather than a wacky anime. Even for people that aren't hostile to the new style it must have been a breath of fresh air. 

That's a topic for another day but, the issues did not start with Awakening. It's not fair to compare Fates world building to anything because it lacks it completely. Not hard to outdo that, but Echoes leaves many unanswered questions, too many for a game that's supposed to expand Gaiden further and ultimately puts SOV on the same level as Gaiden in that regard.This is another topic too but for example, what are the religious practices of the faiths? You're telling me they made an in game calender (that adds nothing) but couldn't do something as simple as this?  

44 minutes ago, Etrurian emperor said:

Jedah is hardly the greatest villain ever written but he goes beyond just the bare template of the Gharnef template like they tried with Validar and Iago. There are real reasons for Jedah's actions and he has a surprisingly easy time acting completely reasonably. He's also surprisingly Selfless for a Gharnef.  

You wanna tell me how Judah is any different from Validar? And Gharnef is actually a decent villain, it's a simple possession story but he gets more backstory than Judah even though he came before him. The man has three daughters and we don't know a damn thing about them or him prior to changing colors and relinquishing their souls. FE2 was a step back in many ways, and SOV does little to improve it.

44 minutes ago, Etrurian emperor said:

 

Echoes is some sort of happy middle ground. It doesn't get to big for it bridges like Fates but its not as bare bones as Awakening and Birthright, and while its a simple, somewhat formulaic tale it still ensures that a decent, functioning story is still being told. 

I understand this completely, great summary. 

10 minutes ago, Hawkwing said:

Because it's gameplay isn't like the previous games at all?

On a (more) serious note, I've made the comparison before that if Gaiden was Zelda 2, then Shadows of Valentia is Skyward Sword, in the sense that what people liked and didn't like will be different between each person, and to varying degrees on top of that. Some people enjoyed the story, and others were understandably annoyed by it's flaws, while still others merely saw it as ok. Similarly, some people really enjoyed the gameplay, others hated it, and some just thought it was a nice diversion. SoV is one of those games where everyone will have a differing opinion over it, even if some of them do overlap.

It's worse.  

I don't hate SOV, I just don't understand the hype.  

9 minutes ago, Shoblongoo said:

^^^
This. Echoes has its flaws, like any other game, but they're flaws within the generally acceptable paramters of "that could have been done better, that's lazy, that's been done before--not the most impressive work. But it isn't terrible. They didn't do anything egregiously wrong here." 

...As opposed to "You and your siblings subvert a corrupt kingdom from within. Lol jk; Go win the Hoshidan throne for Garon and fight a slime monster. Justice is an illusion. Give big sister a hug."
 

 

I understand this too, and it summarizes how I feel. I've said this before, people were so used to terribleness that anything marginally better is a godsend. I don't think we should settle for "okay".

Edited March 5, 2018 by Køkø

[Shoblongoo]

11 minutes ago, Køkø said:

I understand this too, and it summarizes how I feel. I've said this before, people were so used to terribleness that anything marginally better is a godsend. I don't think we should settle for "okay".

...then without "settling for okay," we can acknowledge that Echoes didn't have the same flaws as other recent entries in the series. That's not saying its a flawless game or that there aren't things that can be done better in future installments.

We're simply saying Echoes did things right that Birthright and Conquest (and to a lesser extent Awakening, although I actually don't have a problem with the actual plot of Awakening; its the everyone-is-romantically-compatible-with-everyone  style writing in the support chains where it gets a bit goofy) did wrong. 

Edited March 5, 2018 by Shoblongoo

[Ottservia]

2 hours ago, Azz said:

SoV has by far the best story out of the 3DS games alongside some of the best characters, both personality wise and design wise.

Okay I’m gonna have to disagree on echoes having good characters. IMO echoes has probably one of the most boring casts out of all the 3ds FEs. With these characters it’s pretty much what you see is what you get, and you don’t see much. Like there is nothing beyond the surface level of these characters and if there is it’s hardly worth mentioning. I mean say what you will about peri or tharja but at least with them I got to understand their beliefs and values. I understand who they are as people. I get to see what they’re like when angry, sad, frustrated, etc.. What more can I say about gray or faye other than one is in love with clair and the other is has an unhealthy obsession with alm. I could go on but you get the point.

[Køkø]

10 minutes ago, Shoblongoo said:

...then without "settling for okay," we can acknowledge that Echoes didn't have the same flaws as other recent entries in the series. That's not saying its a flawless game or that there aren't things that can be done better in future installments.

Except it does, I've explained how multiple times. Not 100% identical, but not really any better. My point is that I see people like Echoes for doing something the same way as Fates does and hating the latter. 

10 minutes ago, Shoblongoo said:

We're simply saying Echoes did things right that Birthright and Conquest (and to a lesser extent Awakening, although I actually don't have a problem with the actual plot of Awakening; its the everyone-is-romantically-compatible-with-everyone  style writing in the support chains where it gets a bit goofy) did wrong. 

You and a select few have said this, but that's extremely mild compared to what I've been seeing. 

 

Edited March 5, 2018 by Køkø

[Etrurian emperor]

58 minutes ago, Køkø said:

You wanna tell me how Judah is any different from Validar? And Gharnef is actually a decent villain, it's a simple possession story but he gets more backstory than Judah even though he came before him. The man has three daughters and we don't know a damn thing about them or him prior to changing colors and relinquishing their souls. FE2 was a step back in many ways, and SOV does little to improve it.

Well for one Validar never made any pretension of being reasonable.  Even when he briefly teams up with Chrom via offering ships pretty much everyone can see that he's up to no good. But Jedah stops for a little chat and calmly, rationally explains why he does what he does, why he thinks he needs to do it and why its best for everyone if Celica just works along with him. He's far more honest and reasonable then he has any cause to be at that point. Okay he starts cackling some chapters later but his initial introduction to Celica is actually very nicely done. 

Validar's worship of Grima is never really delved into. He just does it because he's the obligatory evil cult leader. Jedah has an actual reason. His actions in the final chapters heavily imply that a world without gods scares him. He's also just genuinely wants to help his god rather then just doing it for the Evulz though being a FE villain that's still there to some extend. 

As for Gharnef. His actions could have made a decent villain but about 90% of those actions are off screen and there's nothing to be found in his character or personality in the one or two times he actually bothers to show up in the games. But I wasn't meaning to slam old Gharnef again in my post. I meant more that I thought IS had stopped putting any effort in the archtype by the time Validar came around and that they had  started putting in some effort again when it came to Jedah.

The original Gaiden indeed doesn't hold up well when compared to Archenea and I can see it being a step back. The differences come in their remakes. Shadow Dragon didn't even try expanding on the outdated story and characterization of its NES game but Echoes tried really, really hard to breath life in the nonexistent story and blank slate characters of Gaiden. 

Edited March 5, 2018 by Etrurian emperor

[Køkø]

14 minutes ago, Etrurian emperor said:

Well for one Validar never made any pretension of being reasonable.  Even when he briefly teams up with Chrom via offering ships pretty much everyone can see that he's up to no good. But Jedah stops for a little chat and calmly, rationally explains why he does what he does, why he thinks he needs to do it and why its best for everyone if Celica just works along with him. He's far more honest and reasonable then he has any cause to be at that point. Okay he starts cackling some chapters later but his initial introduction to Celica is actually very nicely done. 

Validar's worship of Grima is never really delved into. He just does it because he's the obligatory evil cult leader. Jedah has an actual reason. His actions in the final chapters heavily imply that a world without gods scares him. He's also just genuinely wants to help his god rather then just doing it for the Evulz though being a FE villain that's still there to some extend. 

I don't get it. The monsters and shit are there because of him. What exactly is he afraid of again? 

 Why is he trying to heal Doma if what he wants is much easier with him degenerated? I think he'd be better if he were simply power hungry. 

My friend @omegaxis1 has an interesting theory regarding the Grimleal. He was actually partially correct, as evidenced by Heroes. Maybe Validar will get some characterization in the future as well. 

 

21 minutes ago, Etrurian emperor said:

 

As for Gharnef. His actions could have made a decent villain but about 90% of those actions are off screen and there's nothing to be found in his character or personality in the one or two times he actually bothers to show up in the games. But I wasn't meaning to slam old Gharnef again in my post. I meant more that I thought IS had stopped putting any effort in the archtype by the time Validar came around and that they had  started putting in some effort again when it came to Jedah.

Well at least he has a backstory. Again, what's the deal with his children? 

22 minutes ago, Etrurian emperor said:

 

The original Gaiden indeed doesn't hold up well when compared to Archenea and I can see it being a step back. The differences come in their remakes. Shadow Dragon didn't even try expanding on the outdated story and characterization of its NES game but Echoes tried really, really hard to breath life in the nonexistent story and blank slate characters of Gaiden. 

No.

[Azz]

2 hours ago, Køkø said:

The fact the you insulted me by saying that I was arrogant enough to believe that my word is law even though I made it perfectly what I was doing was enough for me. Maybe "hostile" isn't entirely accurate? How do you like "knee jerk"?  

I never said you were arrogant. I was just pointing out your wording of you OP sounded as if that other then graphics, there was nothing to like about SoV and that anyone that does like it is a hypocrite because the other 3DS games are like SoV, which they really aren't but I already explained that in my original post.

- I have agreed with this. 

- I have addressed Berkut and Judah above with @omegaxis1. By the way, he's identical to Validar. Let me just tell you this now, there is no way you can convince me that Rudolph's plan wasn't the most contrived bullshit. You can try, it'd be entertaining at least. Even the most ardent fans of this title concede with me there. 

Etrurian Emperor already explained Jedah so I'll skip ahead.

As for Berkut, he's not the best. However he fills his purpose. He shows how the values of Rigel, and by proxy, Duma, are not how one should live other wise it will cause their downfall. I agree his ending was stupid, I dislike his happy ending. I also agree with Fernand in that is was stupid most of his character was behind DLC but Fates did it too, and with its main villain so yeah...

As for Rudolf's plan, it is rather simple. It's literally just 'Here Mycen, this is Alm, according to a prophecy, he will save Valentia. Take him and train him into a warrior fit to one day best me so he saves Valentia. If he dies though, we're fucked'. It's really that not contrived, especially compared to the likes of Azura and Sephiran.

- Colorful how? Alm is one the most boring lords in the series. They did a good job with his village friends, yes. Honestly, their gang would be better off without Alm, who's an attention sponge and is "The Chosen One". Tobin outright tells Alm to his face that he's inferior to him in a fashion that even Corrin's games lack. And why the hell can't Alm support with anything of them save for Faye of all people? We've also got a loli, a yandere, a tsundere, whatever the hell Forsyth's trope is called... People would have hated Mae is she was a Fates character. I'm basically saying this game has its fair share of "anime". The rest are pretty tame though, like Lukas, but it's not enough to save this game. 

I mean you'd feel pretty inferior to your friend if one day they went from you friend to leader of an army then to find out he is a prince. Also every lord has a sense of chosen one, this isn't new.

Fire Emblem has always had tropy characters. I said I felt like they weren't as tropy and it didn't rely on their tropes as much as other characters in the other 3DS games. Also Faye isn't a yandere. If she was, Celica would be dead. Faye is obsessed yes, but no yandere. Also I have no idea who this tsundere you speak of is.

- I'll say this as mildly as I can, the "dorkiness", as you put it, appeals to very "specific" audience. Not accusing you of anything or insulting, but I lack the specific wording to describe it. You either get it or you don't. You're correct that a character doesn't need massive flaws to be good, but Alm does not feel human at all. He's just as inhumanly compassionate and perfect as Corrin, but at least Corrin has not being entirely human on their side. 

Corrin's not perfect, their problem is they are extremely flawed yet never learn from them and no one ever points them out and tells Corrin to stop. I gues we'll have to just agree to disagree, I find Alm to be quite human and I think his growth is quite good, not on the level as say Marth in SD or Leif, but good enough, especially compared to Corrin, who gets zilch.

And Echoes Celica's actions are inexcusable. There is nothing subtle about Judah at all, and I would have no complaints if had at least employed some form of deception. Can you tell me for what reason was she being secretive? It's exactly like Azura. I have to admit, I am glad to see that people do call out Celica , even the ardent fans. Humans are stupid many times, but Celica is borderline retarded, like actually. What's worse is that it's a step down from the original, she was one of the few characters that subverted the damsel thing. SOV decides not only to give her damsel status but amp it up to 10 by creating Conrad. 

She was secretive because 1) She knew if she revealed herself as princess, she would be made lead the Deliverance, something she wouldn't want to do (Boey also says this at the beginning of Act 3 btw). 2) Celica is a selfless person. She would much prefer die to save her friends and Valentia then let her friends die to save her. 3) She felt her allies would try and stop her from working with Jedah and as far as Celica was concerned, working with him was the only way to fix the problem they were in. I fail to see how Celica is 'borderline retarded' when she has clear reason for every decision she makes. I do agree, Conrad was pretty bad, he didn't do to save Celica as much as he did. Infact, both Conrad and Faye didn't need to exist, but that's out of our hands now.

You say people give them to much flack but that's only directed towards Celica, while people love Alm.

Maybe its been where I have been hanging around on the internet then, but I see Alm get a lot of flack as well.

....

[indigoasis]

If you all don't mind my naive opinion, I think Echoes is pretty good. Sure, it's not the BEST game in the series (all hail FE4) but it's pretty good. What most appeals to me about the game is the soundtrack. Now, the music may not be the best out there, but you gotta admit that it's a damn good score (is score the right word here?). The dungeon crawling in Echoes was a huge step up from what we had in Gaiden. However, I didn't like not being able to explore villages and such places like you can explore a dungeon, although I liked being able to do some Phoenix Wright-like investigating, if that makes sense. Gameplay-wise, maps were reused a lot in different places, and fighting terrors could get tedious at times. I also feel like Act 6 was kind of shoehorned in, although it did give us some backstory as to how and why Grima exists, as well as a fun super dungeon of sorts.

Anyway, I know that was structured poorly, but I said what I wanted to. If you like or dislike Echoes, that's fine. Keep in mind that it's a remake of a game and story made in the 90s, and the developers wanted to stay as true to the original as possible (with exceptions, of course), and that it's not flawless. I do like how it expanded upon a lot of vague aspects of the story and characters that Gaiden had, and fleshed it out a lot more.

With that in mind, I hope that you can give Echoes another chance. I know that I'm bad at explaining things, so I hope you were able to bear with me here.

[Etrurian emperor]

1 hour ago, Køkø said:

I don't get it. The monsters and shit are there because of him. What exactly is he afraid of again? 

 Why is he trying to heal Doma if what he wants is much easier with him degenerated? I think he'd be better if he were simply power hungry. 

He's afraid of having to stand on his own. Valentia has been managed by gods for its entire history and Jedah says he finds the idea of that changing to be nonsense.

He's trying to heal Duma because he cares. Its his god. 

I don't think Jedah really requires much of a backstory. He's the head priest, he's devoted to Duma's teaching and evil. What else is there to know about him? Some people need a backstory to explain or enhance their motives but Jedah isn't one of those. He acts like his status both in the world and in the writing dictate that he should. Even his daughters being so minor isn't that weird. Jedah got kids and as a true priest thought that sacrificing them to daddy Duma was a great idea. 

Also I believe its mentioned that its Rudolf who's the cause of the monsters. The monsters spawn because the peace pact between the gods and kingdom broke and its Rudolf who started the war.

[Etrurian emperor]

1 hour ago, Køkø said:

No.

I'm not really seeing the cause for a no here. 

Characters who previously were nothing but blank slates now have a personality and a more interesting design to boot, a brand new villain was added and those that were already present have been given additional scenes, Mila was completely absent in Gaiden and now isn't and there's voice acting for everyone.

What more could Echoes have done to elevate a blank slate cast and NES game writing? Even if it wasn't a success then its still clear that they tried through all these additions.

Edited March 5, 2018 by Etrurian emperor

[Mandokarla]

What I'm seeing here is someone making a post, to apparently facilitate discussion and the transference of ideas, about Shadows of Valentia. That post is followed up by someone responding with their opinion, and then the OP pretty much just saying "no", repeating several times over -- with respect being all but absent. 

What I'm seeing is a waste of time, a conversation in which neither side is actually listening to the other and considering their ideas. 

Nothing is being accomplished here. This thread should be locked. It's clear that OP made this post from the firm standpoint that SoV was a sub-par game at best, and has not acknowledged the fact that they view those who disagree as objectively wrong. It's clear in the phrasing of the arguments and the manner in which this discussion has been handled. We see the people defending the game actually absorb some of OP's points, for example regarding Conrad robbing Celica of some agency and character strength (which I do agree with), and acknowledging them without stating a flat denial. This is a one sided debate.