Jump to content

I Need Help Understanding.....


Recommended Posts

2 minutes ago, eclipse said:

Both Ryoma and Takumi say that they believe in Corrin before they bite the dust.  Corrin does no wrong in their eyes.  It's bad storytelling.

I don't have much of an opinion of Alm, because my attention is on Lukas.  I know he's not handled as heavy-handedly as Corrin was, and most of the nonsense we see was present Way Back When FE2 would've been considered decent storytelling.

True. But Corrin does experience a permanent loss. The closest thing Alm has to that is Berkut's death, in which the latter does the same thing. I find myself defending Corrin more often than not, so I just want to say this. I am in no way calling Fates' writing good, nor is there any bias despite what my favorite game is. I like Conquest for its gameplay not its writing. It's just that I don't see Echoes as significantly better than its 3DS brethren in the story department. Granted, most of these issues can indeed be traced back to Gaiden, and I fault IS's minimalist approach for this. I do however, consider this game a better remake than Shadow Dragon (no offense) and New Mystery.  

And yeah, Lukas was chill af. 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

  • Replies 63
  • Created
  • Last Reply

Top Posters In This Topic

21 minutes ago, Køkø said:

True. But Corrin does experience a permanent loss. The closest thing Alm has to that is Berkut's death, in which the latter does the same thing. I find myself defending Corrin more often than not, so I just want to say this. I am in no way calling Fates' writing good, nor is there any bias despite what my favorite game is. I like Conquest for its gameplay not its writing. It's just that I don't see Echoes as significantly better than its 3DS brethren in the story department. Granted, most of these issues can indeed be traced back to Gaiden, and I fault IS's minimalist approach for this. I do however, consider this game a better remake than Shadow Dragon (no offense) and New Mystery.  

And yeah, Lukas was chill af. 

Nothing beats getting gaiden chapters by playing badly! :P:

It can be argued (badly) that Alm was indirectly responsible for Ferdinand's death, as well, but I'd have to reach really hard.  Technically, he's responsible for his father's death, but he had no way of knowing that.

I think the problem is that you're looking at a story that was written a long time ago, and comparing it to something written now.  Expectations and whatnot change.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

5 minutes ago, eclipse said:

 

 Technically, he's responsible for his father's death, but he had no way of knowing that.

True, but his father was a complete stranger to him. I think Corrin has some memories of their time in Hoshido? It's been a while since I played and it doesn't help that I actively ignore the dialogue for the most part. 

10 minutes ago, eclipse said:

 

I think the problem is that you're looking at a story that was written a long time ago, and comparing it to something written now.  Expectations and whatnot change.

I've said this before, I think even Kaga doesn't like Gaiden's story. He never talks about it anywhere except for that one time where he explained the reason mages lose HP. I would think that the bare bones writing of the original gives more room for liberties and creative endeavors. And they've showed no issue with retconning. Jugdral is going to be harder to do that with because it already possesses a fleshed out lore. 

I do see the good in SOV, and hopefully Switch (really wish we could get a least a title) takes some of that and goes upward. 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

5 minutes ago, Køkø said:

True, but his father was a complete stranger to him. I think Corrin has some memories of their time in Hoshido? It's been a while since I played and it doesn't help that I actively ignore the dialogue for the most part. 

I've said this before, I think even Kaga doesn't like Gaiden's story. He never talks about it anywhere except for that one time where he explained the reason mages lose HP. I would think that the bare bones writing of the original gives more room for liberties and creative endeavors. And they've showed no issue with retconning. Jugdral is going to be harder to do that with because it already possesses a fleshed out lore. 

I do see the good in SOV, and hopefully Switch (really wish we could get a least a title) takes some of that and goes upward. 

If you want to have any sort of honest discussion regarding the criticisms of the 3DS games, you have to read the dialogue.  Otherwise, it sounds like you're starting shit for the sake of starting shit, and that's bad.

Retconning would cause complaints, too.  There's no winning in this situation.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

14 minutes ago, eclipse said:

If you want to have any sort of honest discussion regarding the criticisms of the 3DS games, you have to read the dialogue.  Otherwise, it sounds like you're starting shit for the sake of starting shit, and that's bad.

Retconning would cause complaints, too.  There's no winning in this situation.

It was a joke. I'm constantly defending Fates, and anyone who knows me knows that. Of course I'm familiar with the dialogue, the whole memory loss thing wasn't fully explained, hence the tentative wording. If I wanted to start shit, I'd aim for lower fruit and put it on GameFaqs or something. You would come to this conclusion even after I explained myself multiple times?

Retconning isn't inherently bad, it is only so when it detracts from the original. I, and hopefully most others, wouldn't have a problem if it improved the story. For example, making Julius the one who decides to play with Julia instead of Manfroy in a hypothetical remake.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

12 minutes ago, Køkø said:

It was a joke. I'm constantly defending Fates, and anyone who knows me knows that. Of course I'm familiar with the dialogue, the whole memory loss thing wasn't fully explained, hence the tentative wording. If I wanted to start shit, I'd aim for lower fruit and put it on GameFaqs or something. You would come to this conclusion even after I explained myself multiple times?

Retconning isn't inherently bad, it is only so when it detracts from the original. I, and hopefully most others, wouldn't have a problem if it improved the story. For example, making Julius the one who decides to play with Julia instead of Manfroy in a hypothetical remake.

Yes.  Your topic title is that bad.

Unfortunately, that's YOUR opinion.  If everyone held the opinion that retconning isn't bad, then there would be nothing but hype over the FFVII remake, instead of people bitching about it (as one example).  But here we are.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

1 hour ago, eclipse said:

Yes.  Your topic title is that bad.

That's obviously eschewing all my subsequent posts. Okay, I'll concede. How should I have titled this? How much more passive could it get? 

1 hour ago, eclipse said:

 

Unfortunately, that's YOUR opinion.  If everyone held the opinion that retconning isn't bad, then there would be nothing but hype over the FFVII remake, instead of people bitching about it (as one example).  But here we are.

Getting tired of people acting like I don't know the difference. I even said this......... 

2 hours ago, Køkø said:

 

Retconning isn't inherently bad, it is only so when it detracts from the original. I, and hopefully most others, wouldn't have a problem if it improved the story. For example, making Julius the one who decides to play with Julia instead of Manfroy in a hypothetical remake.

What part of this indicates I don't understand that? Now I'm not familiar with FF at all, I've tried to get into it multiple times but it never worked out. Care to explain exactly what the fuss is about? I can't speak on it now because I don't know what you're talking about.

Edited by Køkø
Link to comment
Share on other sites

1 hour ago, Køkø said:

That's obviously eschewing all my subsequent posts. Okay, I'll concede. How should have this been titled? How much more passive could it get?

First off, be honest about what you want.  "I don't understand" tends to be code for "I'm going to pretend not to understand so your attempts to explain it to me look stupid."  Since that isn't your intent, write down what it is you don't understand, and then see if you can find a common theme among it all.

1 hour ago, Køkø said:

Getting tired of people acting like I don't know the difference. I even said this......... 

What part of this indicates I don't understand that? Now I'm not familiar with FF at all, I've tried to get into it multiple times but it never worked out. Care to explain exactly what the fuss is about? I can't speak on it now because I don't know what you're talking about.

No, it's not that I don't think you know that.  It's that there's a LOT of different opinions regarding retconning out there.  Some people don't mind it, as long as it doesn't break the universe in half.  Others don't mind small changes.  Still others will complain that any little change from the original is a travesty.  The issue is that it's impossible to balance all of those opinions.  No matter what IS does, they're going to step on toes.  It would be nice if everyone fell on the "don't break the universe" side, but that's not going to happen.  Everyone has their own opinions of retcons.  In this case, IS went the conservative route - mostly true to the original story, with a couple of new characters.

For FFVII, the battle system will get an overhaul, and the game will be split into episodes.  FFVII was originally a turn-based game.  It looks like it'll be more action-oriented.  This has gotten mixed results.  There's no word on whether things like the story will be changed, but already people are decrying it, just because it won't be the same game that was released on the PS1.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

29 minutes ago, eclipse said:

First off, be honest about what you want.  "I don't understand" tends to be code for "I'm going to pretend not to understand so your attempts to explain it to me look stupid."  Since that isn't your intent, write down what it is you don't understand, and then see if you can find a common theme among it all.

I was. This is a case of people projecting their personalities onto me because I have never heard of that and it makes zero sense from my perspective. And I did explain further. Still not seeing what I did wrong here........... 

29 minutes ago, eclipse said:

 

No, it's not that I don't think you know that.  It's that there's a LOT of different opinions regarding retconning out there.  Some people don't mind it, as long as it doesn't break the universe in half.  Others don't mind small changes.  Still others will complain that any little change from the original is a travesty.  The issue is that it's impossible to balance all of those opinions.  No matter what IS does, they're going to step on toes.  It would be nice if everyone fell on the "don't break the universe" side, but that's not going to happen.  Everyone has their own opinions of retcons.  In this case, IS went the conservative route - mostly true to the original story, with a couple of new characters.

For FFVII, the battle system will get an overhaul, and the game will be split into episodes.  FFVII was originally a turn-based game.  It looks like it'll be more action-oriented.  This has gotten mixed results.  There's no word on whether things like the story will be changed, but already people are decrying it, just because it won't be the same game that was released on the PS1.

Which is why I said "hopefully".

 Now that you explained it, I can understand the criticism. What they're doing is making a completely different game. At this point it's not a remake, but a new game inspired by the original. And wasn't the original released on separate discs or something? If so, maybe that's what they were going for.

Edited by Køkø
Link to comment
Share on other sites

1 minute ago, Køkø said:

I was. This is a case of people projecting their personalities onto me because I have never heard of that and it makes zero sense from my perspective. And I did explain further. Still not seeing what I did wrong here........... 

Which is why I said "hopefully".

 Now that you explained it, I can understand criticism. What they're doing is making a completely different game. At this point it's not a remake, but a new game inspired by the original. And wasn't the original released on separate discs or something? If so, maybe that's what they were going for.

From your perspective, you know whether or not this is true.  From mine?  I have to infer, based off of your posts.  I've dealt with quite the range of personalities, so knowing why people do what they do is vital.

The mafia subforum should illustrate this better, but then again, it gets. . .intense.  It will show you the difference between what's self-evident for you, versus what everyone else thinks.  It's also full of screaming and arguing, so I wouldn't recommend it if you have the stomach for neither.  This also applies to the topic - what you think is obvious isn't the same as what everyone else thinks, on the basis that everyone is different.

The original FFVII was one game.  There were a bunch of spin-offs.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

14 minutes ago, eclipse said:

From your perspective, you know whether or not this is true.  From mine?  I have to infer, based off of your posts.  I've dealt with quite the range of personalities, so knowing why people do what they do is vital.

But you read them, right? Are you saying they don't explain anything?  

15 minutes ago, eclipse said:

 

The mafia subforum should illustrate this better, but then again, it gets. . .intense.  It will show you the difference between what's self-evident for you, versus what everyone else thinks.  It's also full of screaming and arguing, so I wouldn't recommend it if you have the stomach for neither.  This also applies to the topic - what you think is obvious isn't the same as what everyone else thinks, on the basis that everyone is different.

Sounds crazy. It's quite discouraging to know people will think I'm an asshole regardless of what I say. I came here because I thought SF was a bit more high brow but I guess I was wrong. 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

3 minutes ago, Køkø said:

But you read them, right? Are you saying they don't explain anything?  

Sounds crazy. It's quite discouraging to know people will think I'm an asshole regardless of what I say. I came here because I thought SF was a bit more high brow but I guess I was wrong. 

You can control yourself.  You can control what you say, how you act, and what you wear.  But the opinions of others?  Out of your hands.  Someone might think you're the best because of your username.  Someone else might not.

The last sentence worries me, though.  That's an odd conclusion to jump to.  So. . .have a little exercise.  Find a nice mirror, and place it next to your computer/phone/whatever you're using to type out these messages.  Then, open up Notepad or something similar.  In the next two minutes, type out everything you think of when you see your reflection in the mirror, both good and bad.  It can range from your hair color to how you're feeling at the moment to how you see yourself.  After that, read your list.  If you wrote something general (like "is happy"), then elaborate on why you thought that way.

After that, take a look at every single negative.  Unless you wrote down something bad about your skeletal system, those negatives can be changed.  It'll take a lot of introspection and possibly some life experience.  But I promise that if you want to change those negatives into positives, and you work at it, you will.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

16 minutes ago, eclipse said:

You can control yourself.  You can control what you say, how you act, and what you wear.  But the opinions of others?  Out of your hands.  Someone might think you're the best because of your username.  Someone else might not.

The last sentence worries me, though.  That's an odd conclusion to jump to.  So. . .have a little exercise.  Find a nice mirror, and place it next to your computer/phone/whatever you're using to type out these messages.  Then, open up Notepad or something similar.  In the next two minutes, type out everything you think of when you see your reflection in the mirror, both good and bad.  It can range from your hair color to how you're feeling at the moment to how you see yourself.  After that, read your list.  If you wrote something general (like "is happy"), then elaborate on why you thought that way.

After that, take a look at every single negative.  Unless you wrote down something bad about your skeletal system, those negatives can be changed.  It'll take a lot of introspection and possibly some life experience.  But I promise that if you want to change those negatives into positives, and you work at it, you will.

Okay, I'll give it a go. Sounds weird though.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

13 hours ago, Køkø said:

I've said this before, but not on here. Awakening got more backstory in this game then Gaiden did. I don't like or understand this.

True. But there are also other aspects that I believe was well done, such as how they actually explained why Mycen, who was at first a Zofian, would even go along with Rudolf's plan. Well, now we learn that Mycen was Rigelian and an old friend of Rudolf's. 

Realistically, I find that Mycen going along with this plan if he were anything apart from Rudolf's friend to be just insane. Furthermore, like I mentioned above, we really didn't get a chance to see just how bad the impact the gods had on Valentia. Berkut ends up being a shining example of a Rigelian that believes power is everything and that power being questioned drove him to madness. And we heard several cases on how much of a douche Lima was, as he forced Conrad and Celica's mother to marry him simply because he had the wealth and resources to make it happen. 

12 hours ago, Køkø said:

True. But Corrin does experience a permanent loss. The closest thing Alm has to that is Berkut's death, in which the latter does the same thing. I find myself defending Corrin more often than not, so I just want to say this. I am in no way calling Fates' writing good, nor is there any bias despite what my favorite game is. I like Conquest for its gameplay not its writing. It's just that I don't see Echoes as significantly better than its 3DS brethren in the story department. Granted, most of these issues can indeed be traced back to Gaiden, and I fault IS's minimalist approach for this. I do however, consider this game a better remake than Shadow Dragon (no offense) and New Mystery. 

The reason is that Corrin himself isn't inherently bad per se. But rather it's actually Fates as a whole. From the characters to the pacing. I believe a lot of fault here lies in how the manga author that wrote much of the story had many corners end up getting cut.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Join the conversation

You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account.

Guest
Reply to this topic...

×   Pasted as rich text.   Paste as plain text instead

  Only 75 emoji are allowed.

×   Your link has been automatically embedded.   Display as a link instead

×   Your previous content has been restored.   Clear editor

×   You cannot paste images directly. Upload or insert images from URL.

 Share

  • Recently Browsing   0 members

    • No registered users viewing this page.
×
×
  • Create New...