Super Smash Bros. Ultimate News and Discussion: A Simple and Clean Finish

[DisobeyedCargo]

17 minutes ago, Lord-Zero said:

Change the Monado Arts gimmick for electric sword attacks. 

I don’t quite think that’s how echoes work

they have mostly the same moveset. There will be a few changes but not to something as big as the monado arts, that’s shulks main gimmick and his echo would have to be able to use them.

 

[Armagon]

19 minutes ago, Lord-Zero said:

By working. It’s a crazy one but it could work. Change the Monado Arts gimmick for electric sword attacks. Basic attacks and crap would work with next to no issue.

Yeah, but then he's not really a Shulk Echo anymore. Thanks to Chrom, we know Echo Fighters don't have to have the exact same movesets but Monado Arts is Shulk's defining move. That's like making a Little Mac but you remove the KO Punch. If you make a Shulk Echo but remove the main defining part of it, then you don't have an Echo Fighter anymore. You just have a character with a similar moveset. Zephiel being a Shulk Echo is a pretty big stretch.

Honestly, if Zephiel had to be an Echo of anyone, it should be Ike. Have an electric version of Eruption, maybe give him a different Up-B and you're all set.

19 minutes ago, Lord-Zero said:

Sakurai never said that they had to be from the same series so anything goes until he says otherwise. 

That's true but every Echo Fighter so far originates from the same series as their base. Until we're proven otherwise, i'm gonna believe that that is the rule for Echo Fighters.

[Anomalocaris]

There's a better option for a Shulk echo fighter.

[Lord-Zero]

8 minutes ago, DisobeyedCargo said:

I don’t quite think that’s how echoes work

they have mostly the same moveset. There will be a few changes but not to something as big as the monado arts, that’s shulks main gimmick and his echo would have to be able to use them.

 

No one really “knows” how Echo Fighters actually work except Sakurai and his team. You people are thinking of Shulk’s specials. I’m talking about all the other moves that are not the special moves and even those could be tweaked. 

@Armagon And many people thought that Echo Fighters were going to be 1:1 copies before the direct happened. As I said, it’s a crazy idea but one that can still work if you think outside the box. “Defining move”? Sure, Shulk can keep that,  no problem. Little Mac without KO Punch? Well, a Little Mac Echo can have something else. Not a problem.  

The character an Echo Fighter is based on is just that, a base. Attack properties and other animations are tweaked or replaced. They are really just characters with similar movesets in the end. Sure, Zephiel being based on Ike would be a much more realistic scenario but I think that role is going to fall on Mr. Black Knight and that’s why I went for Shulk instead IF they’re really pushing for a Heroes VS Villains theme this time. The way I see it would go like this: Marth gets Hardin as his villain and Black Knight is thrown in as a quick Echo Fighter of Ike. If we don’t get Zack (heck, probably not even One Winged Angel or J-E-N-O-V-A as music tracks. S-E would probably be against having a Sephiroth with a shorter Masamune), Eliwood (with Durandal) could essentially become Fire Cloud and we get Funky Kong as DK’s Echo Fighter. 

We’ll have to wait and see what craziness Sakurai has in store for the next Smash Direct. 

[Armagon]

7 minutes ago, Lord-Zero said:

You people are thinking of Shulk’s specials. I’m talking about all the other moves that are not the special moves and even those could be tweaked. 

You were the one who brought up Shulk's specials in the first place.

8 minutes ago, Lord-Zero said:

Little Mac without KO Punch? Well, a Little Mac Echo can have something else. Not a problem.  

At which point it stops being a Little Mac Echo and it just becomes a Little Mac semi-clone. That's not a bad thing but there's a difference between Echo Fighters and semi-clone. 

9 minutes ago, Lord-Zero said:

The character an Echo Fighter is based on is just that, a base. Attack properties and other animations are tweaked or replaced.

Except they still fight mostly the same as their base character. That's what makes them Echo Fighters. A character with a similar moveset but plays completely differently is a semi-clone. That's why Ganondorf is not an Echo Fighter of Captain Falcon.

If Zephiel were to have Shulk's moveset minus the Monado Arts, then Zephiel stops being Shulk's Echo Fighter and just becomes a semi-clone of Shulk.

[DisobeyedCargo]

13 minutes ago, Lord-Zero said:

No one really “knows” how Echo Fighters actually work except Sakurai and his team. You people are thinking of Shulk’s specials. I’m talking about all the other moves that are not the special moves and even those could be tweaked. 

@Armagon And many people thought that Echo Fighters were going to be 1:1 copies before the direct happened. As I said, it’s a crazy idea but one that can still work if you think outside the box. “Defining move”? Sure, Shulk can keep that,  no problem. Little Mac without KO Punch? Well, a Little Mac Echo can have something else. Not a problem.  

The character an Echo Fighter is based on is just that, a base. Attack properties and other animations are tweaked or replaced. They are really just characters with similar movesets in the end. Sure, Zephiel being based on Ike would be a much more realistic scenario but I think that role is going to fall on Mr. Black Knight and that’s why I went for Shulk instead IF they’re really pushing for a Heroes VS Villains theme this time. The way I see it would go like this: Marth gets Hardin as his villain and Black Knight is thrown in as a quick Echo Fighter of Ike. If we don’t get Zack (heck, probably not even One Winged Angel or J-E-N-O-V-A as music tracks. S-E would probably be against having a Sephiroth with a shorter Masamune), Eliwood (with Durandal) could essentially become Fire Cloud and we get Funky Kong as DK’s Echo Fighter. 

We’ll have to wait and see what craziness Sakurai has in store for the next Smash Direct. 

Except that the monado arts are Shulks defining trait, and so far Echoes have kept the same special moveset of the original character with minor cosmetic changes. None of zephiels abilities allow him to dramatically increase his speed, attack power, defensive capabilities, etc...

 

Now for Xenoblade 1 spoilers 

a lot of them

Don’t click if u haven’t played 

Spoiler

If anyrhing zanza would make a good echo echo for Shulk as in his human form and the form when he comes out of Shulks body he seems very similar to Shulk. He Flat out IS the monado so no trouble using the monado arts there. Could work out fairly well I think 

 

[NoirCore]

Honestly, I'd wait and see if there's apparently some weird rule where Echo fighters (not including non-Echo clones) have to be of the same series of the character they're echoing, because the closest thing we've got to an Echo from a different series so far from the six we know of is an Ylissean lord Echoing an Elibian lord from (if you believe the multiple universe theory) another world. Otherwise, everyone's stayed within the same series.

Would you believe me if I said I initially typed "so far" three times in the same sentence

[Jotari]

5 hours ago, Armagon said:

Nope, the vocals are there. Though it's the kind where you're not really supposed to understand them. I like to think that it's King K. Rool behind those vocals.

How....how does that even work? What part of Zephiel says "oh yeah, this would make a good Shulk Echo"? That's ignoring the fact that it seems a fighter can only be an Echo Fighter of a character from the same series.

Ganondorf and Captain Falcon say hi. And yes, Ganondorf was an Echo fighter, the term is just branding. The people making smash might I might not decide to do something, but any of the "rules" people make up are nonsense. If the development of all the smash games have oroven anything its that they do not limit their creativity. If an idea is good, workable and fan pleasing, they'll put it in no matter how weird or unbalanced it is in terms of representation.

hours ago, Armagon said:

You were the one who brought up Shulk's specials in the first place.

At which point it stops being a Little Mac Echo and it just becomes a Little Mac semi-clone. That's not a bad thing but there's a difference between Echo Fighters and semi-clone. 

Except they still fight mostly the same as their base character. That's what makes them Echo Fighters. A character with a similar moveset but plays completely differently is a semi-clone. That's why Ganondorf is not an Echo Fighter of Captain Falcon.

If Zephiel were to have Shulk's moveset minus the Monado Arts, then Zephiel stops being Shulk's Echo Fighter and just becomes a semi-clone of Shulk.

There is no difference between Echos and clones or semi clones, except that one term is official and another isn't. If this was Melee then Ganondof absolutely would have been classed as an Echo of Captain Falcon. The reason he's not in this game is because he doesn't actually resemble Captain Falcon at all and hasn't since Melee.

Edited August 15, 2018 by Jotari

[Arthur97]

Also, remember, even if you can make an echo doesn't mean you should.

[Lord-Zero]

Actually, the new Ganondorf takes moves from Ike and Cloud now. 

@DisobeyedCargo I’ll click. I don’t care about spoilers. I have no plans on playing that game in the near future anyway. 

However, another character that could also work as Shulk’s Echo Fighter would be Malos. 

“Definitely trait”, that’s Shulk’s unique gimmick. A potential Zephiel doesn’t need to have that. All the basic moves work just fine without Shulk’s gimmick. It’s just a matter of changing some attributes around. Some of you people are still stuck to the idea that they have to be 99% the same. Completely workable: Replace B Special for a modified Eruption, make him slower/stronger or faster/weaker and adjust damage output to make up for the change. Maybe add electric effects to attacks. Tweak or replace Vision for Ike’s Counter or Pikachu’s Thunder. Final Smash: Critical Hit with that cool FE6 animation or have him summon Idunn to blast the opponents. 

In the case of Eliwood as Cloud’s Echo Fighter: The Roy to Cloud’s Marth. Limit Break becomes Counter or it just becomes a fire charge to power up Durandal. The weapons were originally sealed anyway. Charging them up to bring them somewhat closer to their former power could be possible. Cross Slash becomes Fire Slash, tracing the “火“ kanji, Cross Slash is replaced by Ike’s Quick Draw or Cross Slash is replaced by Shulk’s Back Skash. Climhazzard gets fire effects and probably some horizontal distance or he gets Roy’s Blazer. Blade Beam can stay. 

“Echo Fighters” is nothing but an official title for clone characters now. Characters like Dr. Mario and Ganondorf have either gone through several changes themselves or the fighter they’re based on went through enough changes throughout the years to justify not being an Echo Fighter anymore. 

 

 

Edited August 15, 2018 by Lord-Zero

[thecrimsonflash]

I think the main reason why we haven't seen an echo of a character from a different series is because due to the way echoes work there are few examples where it makes sense to make an echo from a different series, micaiah was one of the better examples having the resources to have zelda's moveset almost 1:1, but if they are going to make echoes they still need to be similar and if they are from the same series they have a very high likelihood of being similar, bk works as an ike echo because his style is similar enough to ike and his movements wouldn't be too jarring, bk doesn't work as a cloud echo, not because they are not from different series, but because the differences are to significant to be believable.

also the way that echo fighters are ordered doesn't force them to be in the same series, they just get that characters join number with an epsilon symbol, so that can be ruled out.

[Armagon]

2 hours ago, Lord-Zero said:

Some of you people are still stuck to the idea that they have to be 99% the same.

It's not that we're stuck with the idea, it's that that's how it's always been. Maybe saying 99% is too much though, i'd say it's more accurate to say that Echo Fighters are 90% the same as their base. Whereas semi-clones are only about 50-60% the same as whoever they are based on.

2 hours ago, Lord-Zero said:

Completely workable: Replace B Special for a modified Eruption, make him slower/stronger or faster/weaker and adjust damage output to make up for the change. Maybe add electric effects to attacks. Tweak or replace Vision for Ike’s Counter or Pikachu’s Thunder.

This describes Zephiel as a semi-clone, not an Echo Fighter. He'd be the Ganondorf to Shulk's Captain Falcon.

Eliwood being based of Cloud makes more sense but the act of removing Limit Break is what pushes Eliwood to semi-clone territory.

[thecrimsonflash]

58 minutes ago, Armagon said:

Eliwood being based of Cloud makes more sense but the act of removing Limit Break is what pushes Eliwood to semi-clone territory.

really thinking about it, I don't know what qualities cloud and eliwood share that justify even making eliwood a semi-clone of cloud, other than the whole "anime sword fighter with XL sword" thing, and even then, eliwood doesn't use his durandall animation until he is mounted and otherwise seems more like a "marth type" swordfighter (and I think we can all agree that there are enough of those in ultimate at this point) prior to getting a horse, I also think that ignoring cloud in this context is unfair as well, cloud's moveset didn't come from nowhere and eliwood appears to lack any equivalents, climhazzard is fairly easy to copy as it is pretty indistinct, but I don't recall eliwood innately having access to a blade beam esque attack (the wind sword is an awkward thing to use here as it is a weapon very disconnected from eliwood), cross slash seems equally unfair to just use due to it being a cloud move in general, I don't remember eliwood having any multi hit moves either and if you want to say marth, I say giant sword on horseback, finally we have limit charge which while not a move from final fantasy 7 is the crux of cloud's playstyle, eliwood has no finishing touch equivalent to my knowledge so we will probably just have to give him a counter. 

I'm not trying to be a downer about this, but it just doesn't add up, it seems like you are basing it more on the aesthetic (10% of a smash bros. character) and less on actual functionality (80% of a smash bros. character(the rest is extra crap, references and the like)), which is not the best way to determine clones.

Edited August 15, 2018 by thecrimsonflash

[Lord-Zero]

@Armagon“Semi-clone” is a fan-made term. “Echo Fighter” is basically the official term for all things about “clone” characters. Characters like Ganondorf and Dr. Mario started out as what could be considered now as “Echo Fighters”. They’ve gone through enough changes over the years to warrant their status as “unique” fighters. 

- Ganondorf: His major change was with Brawl and then he was given some of Ike and Cloud’s sword attacks for Ultimate.

- Dr. Mario: In this case, it was Mario who has gone through changes. Doc has a new aerial move for Ultimate. 

What’s wrong with removing Limit Break? If we follow your logic then Chrom would be classified as a “semi-clone” of Roy due to the removal of Blazer. The base Cloud moveset works fine without Limit Break. I mentioned that Eliwood could keep a similar form of it as an option. The Divine Weapons were sealed off and lost most of their former power. One of my suggestions was a “Divine Charge” of sorts where Eliwood would just charge up Durandal and temporarily “unseal” its former power for a bit. Once fully charged, basically, same as Limit Break but with fire. My other option was the FE swordsman staple, Counter. As for a Zelda Echo, Micaiah, Ninian, Celica or even Nino could work.

As for Black Knight, yes, he’s the best candidate for being Ike’s Echo Fighter. Black Knight could possibly have the worst movement in the game but could make up for it with more power and being able to warp around. 

[Armagon]

16 minutes ago, Lord-Zero said:

If we follow your logic then Chrom would be classified as a “semi-clone” of Roy due to the removal of Blazer.

Is Blazer a defining trait of Roy? No. It's just another "rising sword" Up-B. 

18 minutes ago, Lord-Zero said:

Characters like Ganondorf and Dr. Mario started out as what could be considered now as “Echo Fighters”. They’ve gone through enough changes over the years to warrant their status as “unique” fighters.

Yes, that only further proves my point. Despite sharing similar moves, they have enough differences to where they aren't Echo Fighters anymore. 

All of the proposed movesets you've described would cause the character to not be an Echo Fighter. And while there's nothing wrong with having a semi-clone, why not just have the character have their own moveset at that point?

 

[Lord-Zero]

You’re too stuck with the idea of a “defining trait” when we’ve had liberties all over the place. Heck, there were some complaints about Wario losing his signature Shoulder Charge in Smash 4. Anything goes. 

You seem to have a very narrow definition of what an “Echo Fighter” is supposed to be when the only ones that know are Sakurai and his team. “Semi-clone”, there’s that fan-made word again. 

 

[Lightchao42]

After thinking about it for a bit, I wonder why anyone wanted K. Rool when Donkey Kong has a much more deserving character option. The Donkey Kong Country cartoon was...strange.

Personally I think he could work as an Echo Fighter of Bayonetta. Just change his animations, jab, forward tilt, up tilt, down tilt, forward smash, up smash, down smash, grab, throws, neutral air, up air, down air, forward air, back air, neutral special, side special, up special, down special, and Final Smash. Oh, and his victory theme too, of course. That's would still make him an echo, right?

"Officially" there are only two categories of characters: unique characters and clones/echoes. Clones weren't officially defined until Ultimate but they clearly existed before (they were placed accordingly on Melee and 4's character select screens, while Brawl didn't have any). "Semi-clones" are just unique characters. I think Dr. Mario being slower and stronger than Mario is enough of a difference at this point to make him not an Echo Fighter, despite the similar moveset.

Edited August 15, 2018 by Lightchao42

[Troykv]

1 hour ago, Lord-Zero said:

@Armagon“Semi-clone” is a fan-made term. “Echo Fighter” is basically the official term for all things about “clone” characters. Characters like Ganondorf and Dr. Mario started out as what could be considered now as “Echo Fighters”. They’ve gone through enough changes over the years to warrant their status as “unique” fighters. 

- Ganondorf: His major change was with Brawl and then he was given some of Ike and Cloud’s sword attacks for Ultimate.

- Dr. Mario: In this case, it was Mario who has gone through changes. Doc has a new aerial move for Ultimate. 

What’s wrong with removing Limit Break? If we follow your logic then Chrom would be classified as a “semi-clone” of Roy due to the removal of Blazer. The base Cloud moveset works fine without Limit Break. I mentioned that Eliwood could keep a similar form of it as an option. The Divine Weapons were sealed off and lost most of their former power. One of my suggestions was a “Divine Charge” of sorts where Eliwood would just charge up Durandal and temporarily “unseal” its former power for a bit. Once fully charged, basically, same as Limit Break but with fire. My other option was the FE swordsman staple, Counter. As for a Zelda Echo, Micaiah, Ninian, Celica or even Nino could work.

As for Black Knight, yes, he’s the best candidate for being Ike’s Echo Fighter. Black Knight could possibly have the worst movement in the game but could make up for it with more power and being able to warp around. 

I support the idea of seeing Echoes between series; the game is now order for Smash's release instead of series; so that would help many of the weirdest ideas with Clones and stuff.

[Lord-Zero]

1 hour ago, Troykv said:

I support the idea of seeing Echoes between series; the game is now order for Smash's release instead of series; so that would help many of the weirdest ideas with Clones and stuff.

The official labeling of “clones” as “Echo Fighters” open the doors to some really neat possibilities. Sakurai will most likely try to cram in as many Echo Fighters as he possibly can for the vanilla version of the game. 

[Zapp Branniglenn]

I'm thinking they won't truly go ham for adding echoes into the game until post release DLC. Because that's what they'll make in place of all those mii fighter costumes that nobody much cared for. Naturally building another echo takes more work than a mii outfit. If they released one echo to match every three DLC mii fighter outfits from Smash 4, then we'd still be looking at a whopping 12 echo fighters. I'm not sure I can even agree on 12 more echo fighter ideas.

I think cross franchise Echo fighters can absolutely happen, I just haven't heard a convincing idea for one yet that doesn't shaft the potential that character would have as a unique fighter or place them into a set of attack animations that would be completely foreign to them. To me, Daisy is the perfect echo fighter. Because she has no established power set unique from Peach, nor would look weird performing any of Peach's moves due to their similar outfit and mannerisms. 

[thecrimsonflash]

2 hours ago, Lightchao42 said:

After thinking about it for a bit, I wonder why anyone wanted K. Rool when Donkey Kong has a much more deserving character option. The Donkey Kong Country cartoon was...strange.

He is clearly overcompensating with that hair.

3 hours ago, Lord-Zero said:

As for a Zelda Echo, Micaiah, Ninian, Celica or even Nino could work.

I would like to ask, what your thought process is in having ninian as a zelda echo, she cannot warp, she performs no magical attacks, she cannot summon, she doesn't have access to any form of reflector, even in heroes the best we have is bride ninian who was a mage and regular ninian who would at best be a unique fighter given the need to incorporate her dragon form into her moveset.

and as for celica, robin makes way more sense, given celica having an inability to warp, and cannot summon (amiibo wasn't in the original game and if you want to count it anyways, alm could do the same), I don't see a proper din's fire equivalent (though magic can be roughly whatever it needs to be, within reason, it is still a waste) and celica didn't have barrier.

[Jotari]

4 hours ago, Armagon said:

Is Blazer a defining trait of Roy? No. It's just another "rising sword" Up-B. 

Yes, that only further proves my point. Despite sharing similar moves, they have enough differences to where they aren't Echo Fighters anymore. 

All of the proposed movesets you've described would cause the character to not be an Echo Fighter. And while there's nothing wrong with having a semi-clone, why not just have the character have their own moveset at that point?

 

Why did a defining trait suddenly become important? Marth's defining trait is his tipper and the only thing different about his Echo is that they removed said trait. Creating a Cloud without Limit Break or a Shulk without Monado arts (or say a Robin without weapon durability) doesn't break any consistency that has been established so far. Lucina proves that simply removing a defining trait is a very easy way to create a new fighter that is similar get distinct.

Edited August 16, 2018 by Jotari

[Jotari]

1 hour ago, Glennstavos said:

I'm thinking they won't truly go ham for adding echoes into the game until post release DLC. Because that's what they'll make in place of all those mii fighter costumes that nobody much cared for. Naturally building another echo takes more work than a mii outfit. If they released one echo to match every three DLC mii fighter outfits from Smash 4, then we'd still be looking at a whopping 12 echo fighters. I'm not sure I can even agree on 12 more echo fighter ideas.

I think cross franchise Echo fighters can absolutely happen, I just haven't heard a convincing idea for one yet that doesn't shaft the potential that character would have as a unique fighter or place them into a set of attack animations that would be completely foreign to them. To me, Daisy is the perfect echo fighter. Because she has no established power set unique from Peach, nor would look weird performing any of Peach's moves due to their similar outfit and mannerisms. 

Hmm. Twelve. Let's see.

1. Celica, based off Robin

2. Impa, based off Sheik

3. Jeanne, based off Bayonetta

4. Dixie Kong, based off Diddy Kong

5. Raiden, based off Snake (don't think he's popular enough for this to happen, but in terms of logistics it would work well)

6. Tiki, based off Ridley

7. Ninten, based off Ness or Lucas (or maybe a combination of both like Chrom).

8. Zanza, based off Shulk

9. Ken, based off Ryu

10. Blood Falcon, based off Captain Falcon (essentially Melee Ganondorf)

11. Shadow, based off Sonic

12. Louie, based off Olimar (with the destinguishing feature being how many Pikmin they can have at once, so basically bringing back Brawl Olimar).

Yeah some of them have potential as unique characters, but taken the assumption that it's either as an Echo, or not in at all, I think they mostly work. Only Tiki Ridley is all that contrived. On that note, I really hope the branding of Echo fighters and the numbering by appearance in Smash doesn't encourage them to not change Echo fighters in future games (assuming future smash even utilizes the same gameplay). I'd like to see former Echo fighters "graduate" into unique characters over time.

(Sorry for the double post, Serenes is glitching out on me).

 

[Armagon]

1 hour ago, Jotari said:

Lucina proves that simply removing a defining trait is a very easy way to create a new fighter that is similar get distinct.

But Lucina is still like 99% the same as Marth so she's an Echo Fighter. Literally the same moveset. So i don't know if that was the best example.

[Lord_Brand]

Demise could work as a Ganondorf Echo (though Demise's build is closer to that of TP Ganondorf), and I wouldn't mind seeing the BoTW Champions as playable fighters with OoT Sage Echoes for three of them. Here's a list I posted over on Zelda Universe of what total Zelda reps I'd like to see:

• Link
• Zelda/Hilda or Princess Midna (Midna's true form)
• Sheik/Impa
• Ganondorf/Demise
• Young Link/Saria (swaps Fire Arrow for Slingshot and Bombs for Deku Nuts)
• Toon Link
• Daruk/Darunia (swaps Boulder Breaker out for Megaton Hammer, natch)
• Mipha/Ruto
• Urbosa/Nabooru
• Revali

Ten slots with seven Echoes might be a tad generous, but I think it'd allow for some diverse moveset potential. You'd rep most of Hyrule's major tribes, and you'd show off a good variety of weapons and fighting styles too. If I had to swap one of them out for Skull Kid or Tingle, it'd probably be Revali.

Edited August 16, 2018 by Lord_Brand