Super Smash Bros. Ultimate News and Discussion: A Simple and Clean Finish

[Anomalocaris]

47 minutes ago, Glennstavos said:

I think the developers were interested in custom moves being viable as well. Two months after EVO there was a patch that tweaked a ton of custom moves. 'Course by then it was too late. Hopefully this time they made them more reasonable to unlock and set. If you could set them right there in the Versus screen, then that'd help. One thing I hated most about the Project was the numbering system left players in the dark. If you're an Ike main, you know what 2222 means, but probably not your opponent until those moves were used in a match. And how does switching a custom loadout fit in to the character/stage selection process?

I don't think custom movesets will be coming back (Mii Fighters excepted). The changes to Palutena's moveset make me think such.

Too much work for very little payoff. They weren't allowed in random online matches or in tournaments, they're a hassle to balance, and very few people seemed to even care about them.

[Altrosa]

I'm against custom movesets, too. Sakurai's note that Mii Fighters are going to be online viable flags to me that we'll likely not be able to use customized fighters online, or that it's a toggle. If the latter, it'd feel like a pointless addition since 99% of players would keep it off. Keeping track of 65+ fighters is rough enough, let alone 195+ and the many variants.

The other option is that custom moves are scrapped entirely and the reason Mii Fighters work online for Ultimate is that they can't be tweaked beyond the Mii part. 

 

Still waiting on if we're getting a new adventure mode. I don't even need Subspace 2, I just want a fun side-scroller, beat-em-up mode. 

[Zapp Branniglenn]

29 minutes ago, Anomalocaris said:

I don't think custom movesets will be coming back (Mii Fighters excepted). The changes to Palutena's moveset make me think such.

Too much work for very little payoff. They weren't allowed in random online matches or in tournaments, they're a hassle to balance, and very few people seemed to even care about them.

I don't think it'll be too much work when ~52 out of 68 characters already have custom movesets to draw from when we count echo fighters. I also don't think they'll be disinclined to balance them when we already seen them go to the trouble of doing so almost a year after 4's launch. It's also very hypocritical to cut custom moves from every character sans Mii Fighters.

For those not aware, you can see the Mii Brawler use two different Up Bs in their trailer with the first one appearing to be a visually different Piston Punch. Plus an image of Head On Assault (Down B) as well as Feint jump in the Smash Direct (another down B). So custom moves for their sake are confirmed at this point.

Edited June 19, 2018 by Glennstavos

[Florete]

1 hour ago, Glennstavos said:

 Seemed like any arguments you could make were swallowed up by Jank Compilation videos of Windy Kong and Villager's stuff that let him ledge camp.

God, that was so annoying.

Like, I'm pro customs overall, but there are reasons to ban them. Jank is not one of them. Jank is a terrible reason, and yet it's the only one I ever heard.

Custom moves were horribly implemented, which is a shame because I think they would have been much more widely accepted otherwise. Have them all available from the start (no unlocks), let them be selected at fighter select, and allow them online with anyone. Exposure would increase and with it, general acceptance. But instead there was this ridiculously tedious and random unlock process in which it was actually possible to unlock the same custom over and over again, and then you had to go make a custom setup to use them, but then if you want to switch one out you have to go back and edit that set or make a new one, but you only have ten slots so you'll have to edit them eventually if you actually want to try different combinations, and then for all your effort you can't even use them online with anyone.

[Interdimensional Observer]

I will say allowing for custom moves would be fine- if only they didn't need to be tediously unlocked and selected much easier and quicker as has been said before.

I don't see the issue with trying to learn to deal with all the variation they'd bring. In Pokemon, nobody would cry foul if my Arceus was Steel type instead of Normal, or my Rayquaza opting for a Mixed over Special Sweeper setup.

You're only talking about altering four moves in a character's entire set, and barring Miitena, the alternates are just tweaks of the same core move. Toon Link will always have Bombs on his Down Special in some form, he can't swap over to chucking giant stone heads with the Power Bracelets. And furthermore, in the sea of customs inevitably some variants will arise that are just better than others, which cuts down on the number of variants one actually needs to memorize.

It also on the player of a character, provided the variations each have their uses, imposes a small strategic dilemma before each match. 

[Jotari]

34 minutes ago, Florete said:

God, that was so annoying.

Like, I'm pro customs overall, but there are reasons to ban them. Jank is not one of them. Jank is a terrible reason, and yet it's the only one I ever heard.

Custom moves were horribly implemented, which is a shame because I think they would have been much more widely accepted otherwise. Have them all available from the start (no unlocks), let them be selected at fighter select, and allow them online with anyone. Exposure would increase and with it, general acceptance. But instead there was this ridiculously tedious and random unlock process in which it was actually possible to unlock the same custom over and over again, and then you had to go make a custom setup to use them, but then if you want to switch one out you have to go back and edit that set or make a new one, but you only have ten slots so you'll have to edit them eventually if you actually want to try different combinations, and then for all your effort you can't even use them online with anyone.

Add to that is that they were intrinsically linked to an equipment system which is an entire different kettle of fish. I like the idea that I can buff my Ganondorf's speed at the cost of his power (or defense, can't remember the triangle), but my desire to play around with that is separate to my desire to use Warlock Blade. Yet if I ever turn on customs, any CPUs I face will automatically have altered stats and unless specifically stated by human friends that we're playing no equipment (which we almost always did when playing customs) I could end up going into a match against someone with buffed stats while I'm still using my special alts. There's no reason at all to link the two so completely, it just encouraged disuse as if someone didn't like one of the two features, it meant they didn't like both of the features.

Also on a side note, the equipment system had no personality. It was nicely designed, but it was just endless badges of the same type with slightly tweaked stats. Brawl's stickers were a so much better way of doing something like that even if it was regulated to just the Sub Space Emissary.

Edited June 19, 2018 by Jotari

[Zapp Branniglenn]

6 minutes ago, Jotari said:

Also on a side note, the equipment system had no personality. It was nicely designed, but it was just endless badges of the same type with slightly tweaked stats. Brawl's stickers were a so much better way of doing something like that even if it was regulated to just the Sub Space Emissary.

Agreed. And they're fun to collect! Easy to put in the game! It's just official artwork that can further represent the Nintendo and non-Nintendo pantheon of characters and items.

[Interdimensional Observer]

7 minutes ago, Jotari said:

Also on a side note, the equipment system had no personality. It was nicely designed, but it was just endless badges of the same type with slightly tweaked stats. Brawl's stickers were a so much better way of doing something like that even if it was regulated to just the Sub Space Emissary.

Didn't the stickers also have the issue of you being able to lose them and some being irreplaceable? I didn't love them for Subspace for those reasons.

[Armagon]

22 minutes ago, Interdimensional Observer said:

I don't see the issue with trying to learn to deal with all the variation they'd bring. In Pokemon, nobody would cry foul if my Arceus was Steel type instead of Normal, or my Rayquaza opting for a Mixed over Special Sweeper setup.

The difference between Pokemon and Smash is that Pokemon doesn't involve skill. It's just about who has the better numbers. Plus, Pokemon is turn-based so the rules will obviously be different.

[Jotari]

34 minutes ago, Interdimensional Observer said:

Didn't the stickers also have the issue of you being able to lose them and some being irreplaceable? I didn't love them for Subspace for those reasons.

Yeah, and that's more an issue, but I more meant they were better for this reason

35 minutes ago, Glennstavos said:

Agreed. And they're fun to collect! Easy to put in the game! It's just official artwork that can further represent the Nintendo and non-Nintendo pantheon of characters and items.

There's also a massive difference between custom moves being like that, and minor stat boosting equipment. I'd rather stickers only needed to be collected once, but it's much less of an issue if there's multiples of them compared to multiples of special moves which actually change a character's moveset.

29 minutes ago, Armagon said:

The difference between Pokemon and Smash is that Pokemon doesn't involve skill. It's just about who has the better numbers. Plus, Pokemon is turn-based so the rules will obviously be different.

Well then what about a game like Dissidia Final Fantasy which is a fighting  game. Characters all have about 20 available moves (perhaps more) yet can only equip about twelve at once (or even less if you want to boost other abilities). Dissidia is obviously much more focused on character customization than Smash will ever be, but the fact remains that it doesn't at all break the game to go into a match with another character and have to expect certain combinations of attacks that they might or might not have. And it's even more extreme in Dissidia as characters can map any attack to any of the button layouts, while in Smash you know your enemy has only one of three attacks on each special button (as opposed to say having Warlock Punch as a Down Special while simultaneously having Warlock Blade as a neutral special).

Edited June 19, 2018 by Jotari

[Interdimensional Observer]

Talk of stickers is reminding me of trophies and those trophy minigames in Brawl and 4. They weren't very useful once you had acquired most Trophies, and the Brawl one could've benefited from being a little more SHUMP-y, but they were fun for what they're worth.

[Jedi]

With Palutena seemingly merging old moves (reflect & counter) and having explosive flame instead of auto ret, I don't think customs are coming back for anyone besides Mii Fighters.

[Jotari]

2 minutes ago, Interdimensional Observer said:

Talk of stickers is reminding me of trophies and those trophy minigames in Brawl and 4. They weren't very useful once you had acquired most Trophies, and the Brawl one could've benefited from being a little more SHUMP-y, but they were fun for what they're worth.

I liked Melee's lottery system for the certainty it brought. Sometimes you'd have to end up grinding for coins, but there was a near guarantee that if you put 20 in the machine then you would get a trophy you don't have. Don't think I ever collected all the generic trophies in the other two games as even if you spend over an hour on coin launcher trying to hit things, there's no certainty at all that it'll be actually worth the time.

[Jedi]

1 minute ago, Jotari said:

I liked Melee's lottery system for the certainty it brought. Sometimes you'd have to end up grinding for coins, but there was a near guarantee that if you put 20 in the machine then you would get a trophy you don't have. Don't think I ever collected all the generic trophies in the other two games as even if you spend over an hour on coin launcher trying to hit things, there's no certainty at all that it'll be actually worth the time.

At least we can still enjoy that lottery system in Danganronpa lmao. (You use it for gifts to give other characters).

[Zapp Branniglenn]

3 minutes ago, Jotari said:

I liked Melee's lottery system for the certainty it brought. 

You want to talk certainty? Trophy Shop. I finished my trophy collecting in Smash 4 so fast because new trophies appeared just about every time I popped in

But in the spirit of Smash Ultimate, Why not have all three? A lottery that's easy and quick to roll, a shop with premium prices, and a cool coin launcher minigame that's fun but has the best trophy per coin ratio but also the most randomness in what appears.

And while we're here, custom moves and mii fighter costume shop please. Make those collections easier to finish as well.

Edited June 19, 2018 by Glennstavos

[Anomalocaris]

35 minutes ago, Glennstavos said:

Agreed. And they're fun to collect! Easy to put in the game! It's just official artwork that can further represent the Nintendo and non-Nintendo pantheon of characters and items.

Stickers were awesome. If we get another story mode, I hope they return in pretty much the same capacity, being attached to the trophy base to buff up your stats or give yourself unique properties. However, a multiplayer mode that lets you use your stickerfied fighters wouldn't be a bad option, and could be the equivalent of Smash 4's Custom Equipment without being as much of a hassle or as generic.

Oh, and make it so that stickers aren't lost when removed, just returned to your inventory. But that goes without sayin'.

2 minutes ago, Jedi said:

With Palutena seemingly merging old moves (reflect & counter) and having explosive flame instead of auto ret, I don't think customs are coming back for anyone besides Mii Fighters.

That's my logic, too. I don't think they'd have touched Palutena's base set much if she was going to have all her moveset options carried over.

5 minutes ago, Interdimensional Observer said:

Talk of stickers is reminding me of trophies and those trophy minigames in Brawl and 4. They weren't very useful once you had acquired most Trophies, and the Brawl one could've benefited from being a little more SHUMP-y, but they were fun for what they're worth.

Brawl's was a lot of fun. The fact that you could also earn stickers from it was handy, too. I didn't care much for Trophy Rush, though, it was kinda annoying getting buried under tons of explosive boxes.

[Jotari]

1 minute ago, Glennstavos said:

You want to talk certainty? Trophy Shop. I finished my trophy collecting in Smash 4 so fast because new trophies appeared just about every time I popped in

But in the spirit of Smash Ultimate, Why not have all three? A lottery that's easy and quick to roll, a shop with premium prices, and a cool coin launcher minigame that's fun but has the most randomness.

And while we're here, custom moves and mii fighter costume shop please. Make those collections easier to finish as well.

Absolutely. There's no real reason not to just combine the systems.

[Anomalocaris]

2 minutes ago, Glennstavos said:

You want to talk certainty? Trophy Shop. I finished my trophy collecting in Smash 4 so fast because new trophies appeared just about every time I popped in

But in the spirit of Smash Ultimate, Why not have all three? A lottery that's easy and quick to roll, a shop with premium prices, and a cool coin launcher minigame that's fun but has the best trophy per coin ratio but also the most randomness in what appears.

And while we're here, custom moves and mii fighter costume shop please. Make those collections easier to finish as well.

As far as the shop goes, I'd like if they expanded its wares, too.

Perhaps one page of randomly-rolled Trophies like in Smash 4, plus randomly-rolled stickers or equipment if they return. Then a second page that sells some static, one-time purchases like a few store-exclusive trophies, five or so music CDs, some custom moves if they return, maybe even a stage or a secret character.

[Jotari]

1 minute ago, Anomalocaris said:

Stickers were awesome. If we get another story mode, I hope they return in pretty much the same capacity, being attached to the trophy base to buff up your stats or give yourself unique properties. However, a multiplayer mode that lets you use your stickerfied fighters wouldn't be a bad option, and could be the equivalent of Smash 4's Custom Equipment without being as much of a hassle or as generic.

What's wrong with a multiplayer mode for using enhanced stats? SSB4's custom equipment  might not have had any professional merit, and I highly object to it being linked to special customs, but it still was a fun mode to play around with (although actually finding the stickers that have special effects in the mountain of identical badges you'd collected was a pain, which is exactly one of the reasons I want stickers to replace it. If I want to use Double Final Smashes then I know Big Boss or NES Kraid will let me do that). I think some players even managed to make a game mode that emulated Melee physics by utilizing the right combination of equipment. There's no good reason not to make a mode like that available for multiplayer, especially if it's already implemented into the game in a story mode. Obviously it's never going to replace vanilla multiplayer, but it's still a fun way to play the game some times.

[Interdimensional Observer]

2 minutes ago, Jotari said:

Obviously it's never going to replace vanilla multiplayer, but it's still a fun way to play the game some times.

Like good old Special mode. As generic as it is, Tiny + Poison Mushrooms is fun, no Invisibility or Fixed Camera though, both making things too cruel on top of the itty bitty size.

[Anomalocaris]

4 minutes ago, Jotari said:

What's wrong with a multiplayer mode for using enhanced stats? SSB4's custom equipment  might not have had any professional merit, and I highly object to it being linked to special customs, but it still was a fun mode to play around with (although actually finding the stickers that have special effects in the mountain of identical badges you'd collected was a pain, which is exactly one of the reasons I want stickers to replace it. If I want to use Double Final Smashes then I know Big Boss or NES Kraid will let me do that). I think some players even managed to make a game mode that emulated Melee physics by utilizing the right combination of equipment. There's no good reason not to make a mode like that available for multiplayer, especially if it's already implemented into the game in a story mode. Obviously it's never going to replace vanilla multiplayer, but it's still a fun way to play the game some times.

...Did you misread my post? I said I'd be fine with a Sticker Smash mode, and it could be a fun thing to play once in a while.

Each sticker having a static modifier would be an improvement over Smash 4's randomly-generated numbers, too, if you ask me; no more being at a disadvantage just because your friend happened to roll an objectively-better instance of the same item. As long as you have all the stickers, you have the same options at your disposal.

Edited June 19, 2018 by Anomalocaris

[Jedi]

More gameplay (people who aren't very experienced but still SOUND) also link is auto put at a point where Ridley's win theme is on, it's unique from Samus.

[Interdimensional Observer]

Just now, Jedi said:

More gameplay (people who aren't very experienced but still SOUND) also link is auto put at a point where Ridley's win theme is on, it's unique from Samus.

? Does this mean everyone or more people are getting unique victory themes now?

[Jedi]

1 minute ago, Interdimensional Observer said:

? Does this mean everyone or more people are getting unique victory themes now?

Doubtful this is likely just a Bowser/Bowjow & Metaknight situation.

Edited June 19, 2018 by Jedi

[Jotari]

41 minutes ago, Anomalocaris said:

...Did you misread my post? I said I'd be fine with a Sticker Smash mode, and it could be a fun thing to play once in a while.

Yeah, I guess I did. Sorry. X[