Jump to content

Super Smash Bros. Ultimate News and Discussion: A Simple and Clean Finish


Lightchao42
 Share

Now that Ultimate has been out for a while, who is your favorite newcomer?  

74 members have voted

  1. 1. Who is your favorite base game (and Piranha Plant) newcomer?

  2. 2. Who is your favorite new Echo Fighter?

  3. 3. Who is your favorite Fighters Pass 1 character?



Recommended Posts

Jigglypuff was pretty popular all around. Then again, back in the 64/Melee days Japanese popularity would have meant more due to fewer means of long-distance communication. But since Brawl I think the only character who could have gotten in because of Japanese popularity is Lucas, and even then it's arguable whether it was popularity or just Sakurai wanting to add another Mother character; the series was never huge.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

  • Replies 5.8k
  • Created
  • Last Reply

Top Posters In This Topic

I'm not sure on all around, at least by the time Smash 64 got released. From my understanding, most of Jigglypuff's popularity came from the anime, due to the recurring one that appeared in the early seasons (that was brought back actually, in the most recent one).

The thing is, both anime and games debuted in late 1998 outside Japan, and Smash 64 was released early 1999. I'm not sure that's enough time for Jigglypuff to gain that much popularity outside Japan by the time she was chosen (and Pokémon itelf, for that matter; then again, I don't know how quickly it picked up outside Japan). Considering the game was likely already in development before the debut overseas, let alone Jigglypuff's debut in the anime. Though again, not sure how much the games contributed to her popularity.

About Lucas, I think we were already at the point the Mother series had already gained a sizeable following outside Japan, so Mother 3 was quite known, even if most people had to play it through emulation. Also, I think Lucas was meant to replace Ness.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

10 minutes ago, Acacia Sgt said:

I'm not sure on all around, at least by the time Smash 64 got released. From my understanding, most of Jigglypuff's popularity came from the anime, due to the recurring one that appeared in the early seasons (that was brought back actually, in the most recent one).

The thing is, both anime and games debuted in late 1998 outside Japan, and Smash 64 was released early 1999. I'm not sure that's enough time for Jigglypuff to gain that much popularity outside Japan by the time she was chosen (and Pokémon itelf, for that matter; then again, I don't know how quickly it picked up outside Japan). Considering the game was likely already in development before the debut overseas, let alone Jigglypuff's debut in the anime. Though again, not sure how much the games contributed to her popularity.

About Lucas, I think we were already at the point the Mother series had already gained a sizeable following outside Japan, so Mother 3 was quite known, even if most people had to play it through emulation. Also, I think Lucas was meant to replace Ness.

Really freaking quickly. That old South Park episode is barely an exaggeration.

Edited by Jotari
Link to comment
Share on other sites

6 minutes ago, Jotari said:

Really freaking quickly. That old South Park episode is barely an exaggeration.

I don't watch South Park, but it doesn't surprise me if it really got super popular in such a short time.

Regardless, there's still very little chance it's overseas popularity got to influence Smash 64. The game was already out in Japan by the time Jigglypuff debuted overseas in the anime, and again, don't know how much the games helped Jigglypuff overseas.

Edited by Acacia Sgt
Link to comment
Share on other sites

2 minutes ago, Acacia Sgt said:

I don't watch South Park, but it doesn't surprise me if it really got super popular in such a short time.

Regardless, there's still very little chance it's overseas popularity got to influence Smash 64. The game was already out in Japan by the time Jigglypuff debuted overseas in the anime, and again, don't know how much the games helped Jigglypuff overseas.

This sums it up.

You're not wrong about the release dates though. Jigglypuff was no doubt planned for Smash 64 before Pokemon hit the international market. But Pokemon was a massive hit so they knew putting two of them in the game was an obvious good decision. That it was Jigglypuff over, say, Chraizard probably comes down to how similar she physically was to Kirby as I noted before.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Yeah, I'm aware about the physical similarity. It's even best seen in-game with the fighting polygons. Same thing happens with Ness and Luigi, based from Mario, and I think Captain Falcon from Samus... kinda. I don't remember.

You know, when you think about, if Marth had made it to Smash 64, as it was the plan if I recall correctly, we probably would've had Marth using the Fire Emblem in Smash; since he would've used Link's model as base, as a fellow swordsman, and who uses a shield.

Edited by Acacia Sgt
Link to comment
Share on other sites

33 minutes ago, Acacia Sgt said:

Yeah, I'm aware about the physical similarity. It's even best seen in-game with the fighting polygons. Same thing happens with Ness and Luigi, based from Mario, and I think Captain Falcon from Samus... kinda. I don't remember.

You know, when you think about, if Marth had made it to Smash 64, as it was the plan if I recall correctly, we probably would've had Marth using the Fire Emblem in Smash; since he would've used Link's model as base, as a fellow swordsman, and who uses a shield.

Yeah, that sounds pretty likely. Although given Jigglypuff, they probably would have given Marth distinct specials from Link since a boomerang and bombs wouldn't fit him. 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

1 hour ago, Jotari said:

I'm one those guys that didn't pay attention to any leaks at all. So can someone explain to me what exactly the box theory was? I have a vague idea, but not clue to the specifics.

Strap yourself in.

First, observe the box art. You may notice it's got character portraits on the side, and two spots are blank. This was after Isabelle was revealed, so we knew the spot after K. Rool was reserved for her and simply hadn't been updated yet, leaving one more blank spot in the corner (whom we now know is Incineroar).

However, here's where things get sequential. The characters are in numerical order, but there's something strange. It starts with Luigi (skipping Mario through Pikachu, 9 characters), then proceeds normally up until Sheik (also 9 characters), then skips another 9 (Zelda through Mewtwo), and so on. People speculated that the opposite side of the box had character portraits too, and that the two sides alternated every 9 characters. This proceeds all the way up to the end of the list, with one strange inconsistency. The gap between the Mii Fighters and Corrin would only be 8 characters (Palutena, Pac-Man, Robin, Shulk, Bowser Jr., Duck Hunt, Ryu, and Cloud), not 9. We can't see that section of characters since it's on the invisible side, but we deduced that there was another blank space within that segment, to bring it up to 9, reserved for an Echo Fighter of one of the aforementioned characters. Ken as a Ryu Echo was the most popular pick, in no small part due to Verbegen leaking him and that beta footage leak. Here's a handy visual aid of what the two box sides were speculated to look like, with mockup stock icons of Ken and Incineroar inserted into the two suspicious blank spaces.

And so, the Box Theory proved to be true today, but it met a lot of resistance back then even before the Grinch came in and acted like a three-decker sauerkraut and toadstool sandwich (with arsenic sauce). From what I encountered a lot of the resistance seemed less a matter of factual debate and more an unwillingness to entertain the idea that there were only two characters left.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

2 hours ago, Florete said:

Not quite. I can't find the full results, but based on this, Rowlet and Primarina are more popular in Japan than any of the Litten line.

Litten (7th) and Incineroar (14th) are both higher than any of the other Rowlet or Popplio members. So you could argue that Primarina and Rowlet are carrying their entire line on their coattails meanwhile Litten’s line is more consistently liked.

I think only the inclusion of the third stage starters are being argued for so I don’t know if Rowlet (1st) being more popular means much when Decidueye (15th) is still lower than Incineroar (14th).

Based on the poll Primarina (3rd) should have been the one to make it into smash but I guess it’s kind of a moot point since I haven’t seen anyone argue for Primarina’s inclusion.

So overall, it really just seems like people being salty about the inclusion of character they didn’t want over the inclusion of another character they did and has no basis on Incineroar’s popularity since he obviously isn’t generally disliked according to the poll or even the least popular one of the three third stage starters.

Edited by NegativeExponents-
Link to comment
Share on other sites

29 minutes ago, Anomalocaris said:

Strap yourself in.

First, observe the box art. You may notice it's got character portraits on the side, and two spots are blank. This was after Isabelle was revealed, so we knew the spot after K. Rool was reserved for her and simply hadn't been updated yet, leaving one more blank spot in the corner (whom we now know is Incineroar).

However, here's where things get sequential. The characters are in numerical order, but there's something strange. It starts with Luigi (skipping Mario through Pikachu, 9 characters), then proceeds normally up until Sheik (also 9 characters), then skips another 9 (Zelda through Mewtwo), and so on. People speculated that the opposite side of the box had character portraits too, and that the two sides alternated every 9 characters. This proceeds all the way up to the end of the list, with one strange inconsistency. The gap between the Mii Fighters and Corrin would only be 8 characters (Palutena, Pac-Man, Robin, Shulk, Bowser Jr., Duck Hunt, Ryu, and Cloud), not 9. We can't see that section of characters since it's on the invisible side, but we deduced that there was another blank space within that segment, to bring it up to 9, reserved for an Echo Fighter of one of the aforementioned characters. Ken as a Ryu Echo was the most popular pick, in no small part due to Verbegen leaking him and that beta footage leak. Here's a handy visual aid of what the two box sides were speculated to look like, with mockup stock icons of Ken and Incineroar inserted into the two suspicious blank spaces.

And so, the Box Theory proved to be true today, but it met a lot of resistance back then even before the Grinch came in and acted like a three-decker sauerkraut and toadstool sandwich (with arsenic sauce). From what I encountered a lot of the resistance seemed less a matter of factual debate and more an unwillingness to entertain the idea that there were only two characters left.

Hindsight's 20:20, but that all seemed like a pretty rationale deduction to me.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

38 minutes ago, NegativeExponents- said:

Litten (7th) and Incineroar (14th) are both higher than any of the other Rowlet or Popplio members. So you could argue that Primarina and Rowlet are carrying their entire line on their coattails meanwhile Litten’s line is more consistently liked.

I think only the inclusion of the third stage starters are being argued for so I don’t know if Rowlet (1st) being more popular means much when Decidueye (15th) is still lower than Incineroar (14th).

Based on the poll Primarina (3rd) should have been the one to make it into smash but I guess it’s kind of a moot point since I haven’t seen anyone argue for Primarina’s inclusion.

So overall, it really just seems like people being salty about the inclusion of character they didn’t want over the inclusion of another character they did and has no basis on Incineroar’s popularity since he obviously isn’t generally disliked according to the poll or even the least popular one of the three third stage starters.

Well, I'd have certainly taken Rowlet. Why must it always be the final evolution (unless linked to Pokemon Trainer) anyway? It's not generally disliked, but it is the least popular of the three starters in the west, and only barely beating Decidueye in the east.

Aside from just disliking the character ever since its reveal for Pokemon Sun/Moon, the main reason I'm so against Incineroar's inclusion is because it feels like "another Pokemon." Like every Smash needs a new Pokemon, so they tossed one in. There doesn't seem to be any other good reason as to why Incineroar would be chosen. It's not especially popular, it was never highly-requested (considering when the roster was decided, it couldn't be), it doesn't exactly ooze with moveset potential, it isn't introducing a new franchise (it actually makes Pokemon the most-repped franchise). It's just there to fill a quota.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

1 hour ago, Florete said:

Well, I'd have certainly taken Rowlet. Why must it always be the final evolution (unless linked to Pokemon Trainer) anyway? It's not generally disliked, but it is the least popular of the three starters in the west, and only barely beating Decidueye in the east.

Pichu and Jigglypuff aren’t part of final evolutions (and neither is Pikachu but that’s the mascot) but yeah I see what you mean. You’re guess is as good as mine but I think it’s simply because they just seem more battle ready than their previous evolution and therefore they get in because of that. I personally wouldn’t be opposed to Rowlet or any other non-fully evolved Pokémon getting in instead but I guess the developers just don’t see it that way.

1 hour ago, Florete said:

Aside from just disliking the character ever since its reveal for Pokemon Sun/Moon, the main reason I'm so against Incineroar's inclusion is because it feels like "another Pokemon." Like every Smash needs a new Pokemon, so they tossed one in. There doesn't seem to be any other good reason as to why Incineroar would be chosen. It's not especially popular, it was never highly-requested (considering when the roster was decided, it couldn't be), it doesn't exactly ooze with moveset potential, it isn't introducing a new franchise (it actually makes Pokemon the most-repped franchise). It's just there to fill a quota.

I won’t disagree with Incineroar feeling like “just another Pokémon.” Kinda feels like Fire Emblem’s “just another sword dude” but I’ll cut some slack since most titular characters wield swords and only swords and there’s really nothing that can be done about that. Pokémon on the other hand just has so many unique characters at it’s disposal that it’s almost criminal that most Pokémon newcomers have been “bipedal furry of the newest gen.” I would really like to see what they’d do with something like Arbok, Toxapex, Haunter, Beautifly, or you know just some other non-conventional Pokémon instead.

As far as repping a series outside of Pokémon, I guess it’s just like you said, they must feel some need to fill a quota, and I can’t say I don’t understand since it is like a mega popular franchise world wide and Nintendo probably wants to capitalize on that as much as possible or at least to the point where they don’t mind sacrificing a possible rep for another franchise.

I will say one thing though, for someone who doesn’t “ooze moveset potential” I disagree and feel like they did a good job in making him stand out compared to other cast members. After all, it’s not like we had a wrestler in the cast before him so Incineroar is still bringing something new to the table.

Edited by NegativeExponents-
Link to comment
Share on other sites

7 hours ago, NegativeExponents- said:

Based on the poll Primarina (3rd) should have been the one to make it into smash but I guess it’s kind of a moot point since I haven’t seen anyone argue for Primarina’s inclusion.

I sort of did by pointing out that Primarina could easily move around the stage if Piranha Plant can, in response to someone rhetorically asking how Primarina would be able to move around on the battlefield.

I think the reason few people are arguing for Primarina's inclusion is that there's already a (non-Pokémon Trainer) water-type Pokémon: Greninja. 

6 hours ago, Florete said:

Well, I'd have certainly taken Rowlet. Why must it always be the final evolution (unless linked to Pokemon Trainer) anyway? It's not generally disliked, but it is the least popular of the three starters in the west, and only barely beating Decidueye in the east.

Aside from just disliking the character ever since its reveal for Pokemon Sun/Moon, the main reason I'm so against Incineroar's inclusion is because it feels like "another Pokemon." Like every Smash needs a new Pokemon, so they tossed one in. There doesn't seem to be any other good reason as to why Incineroar would be chosen. It's not especially popular, it was never highly-requested (considering when the roster was decided, it couldn't be), it doesn't exactly ooze with moveset potential, it isn't introducing a new franchise (it actually makes Pokemon the most-repped franchise). It's just there to fill a quota.

Agreed. I would've liked Rowlet. As for Incineroar, I'm not against his inclusion because it's another Pokémon (my brother and I have been wanting Sceptile in Smash since Smash 4), but because of the lack of moveset potential you mentioned. 

5 hours ago, NegativeExponents- said:

I will say one thing though, for someone who doesn’t “ooze moveset potential” I disagree and feel like they did a good job in making him stand out compared to other cast members. After all, it’s not like we had a wrestler in the cast before him so Incineroar is still bringing something new to the table.

True; there wasn't a wrestler already. But, when it comes down to it, he is still another big, not-fast, bulky fist fighter. He is now in a list that includes Bowser, Ganondorf, Donkey Kong, Ryu, Ken, King K. Rool, and am I missing anyone? 

Edited by vanguard333
Link to comment
Share on other sites

10 hours ago, NinjaMonkey said:

They already gutted the single-player mode in Smash 4.

And then did it again.

10 hours ago, NinjaMonkey said:

Still a lot better than Smash Tour. Besides, the general consensus is that the Subspace Emissary isn't well-liked.

Well someone's been living under the rock; that's been proven to be the vocal minority opinion (I always liked it) since Smash 4, with a sizable amount of people clamoring for a proper Adventure mode.

A couple of gamefaqs polls:
https://gamefaqs.gamespot.com/boards/234547-super-smash-bros-ultimate/76997652
90% of respondents said they'd want an SSE-style Adventure mode.
https://gamefaqs.gamespot.com/boards/234547-super-smash-bros-ultimate/77160704
When asked if they preferred Subspace or the World of Light, nearly half said the SSE with the remainder evenly split between "unsure" and "WoL".

The single player modes are:
>A gutted classic mode (all randomness removed)
>100-man Smash (only form of Multi-Man Smash returning)
>A gutted "All-Star mode" behaving like 100-man Smash
>Grinding for Spirits/a bunch of event matches
>World of Light/an overworld with bot matches and the occasional boss

No real beat-em-up/platformer gameplay; no stage builder; no home run contest or break the targets; no Smash Run; no Special Orders; no Masterpieces; it's the bare minimum they could've done and is reductive compared to Smash 4's overall package (which itself was reductive when compared to Brawl's)-- hell, it's got fewer modes than the 3DS version. The majority of the game is just Event Matches at this point.

5 hours ago, Jotari said:

Hindsight's 20:20, but that all seemed like a pretty rationale deduction to me.

Yep, it was. But it only left things open for a single unique newcomer and an Echo (which Vergeben, with a perfect track record, had already been calling as Incineroar and Ken), which "can't be the case in the Ultimate Smash game! There's no way they'd reveal the heavy hitters so soon (nevermind that Smash reveals never end on a "strong" note) or that a placeholder box would be correct!"

From the same community that brought you "Ridley is playable, seriously (even though he was teased among stage bosses)", so much nonsense and crackpot theories came about of people trying to "confirm" their favorite character. When the Banner deal happened, they basically cut themselves all over with how judiciously they applied Occam's Razor trying to mock everybody claiming it was fake by actively downplaying/ignoring all the evidence and theories against it, while literally going "Fuck the insiders they need to be brought down" when they started calling fake (all while clinging to a nobody who was a forumgoer claiming that everybody from the Mural was included on top of Incineroar; blind confirmation bias, much?).

And here's the kicker; from a combination of 4chan breakdowns and his own personal twitter within the past 24hours, the entire "Grinch leak" has been confirmed to have been done by a guy who knows a guy... who knows MarioTehPlumber (an infamous individual who bought 1,000 Rosalina amiibo... to burn so nobody else could get them), who set it all up so people would hate the game and the actual roster. Meaning the biggest goddamn loser has ended up as the biggest winner out of this shitshow.

 

Edited by The DanMan
Link to comment
Share on other sites

20 minutes ago, vanguard333 said:

True; there wasn't a wrestler already. But, when it comes down to it, he is still another big, slow, bulky fist fighter. He is now in a list that includes Bowser, Ganondorf, Donkey Kong, Ryu, Ken, King K. Rool, Wii Fit Trainer, and am I missing anyone? 

Bowser, Donkey Kong, Ryu, Ken, and Wii Fit Trainer are slow? Also, Wii Fit Trainer is bulky? You must be joking, right? Surely you don’t mean that. Sure they aren’t Sonic or Captain Falcon but they are far from slow. They all range from middle of the road to faster than average. I think you’re letting their large size fool you into thinking they’re slower than they actually are. The likes of Link and Luigi who seem like they would be pretty agile are slower than these characters.

As for the fist fighting part. Whatever. So he uses fist. Big whoop. The point is it doesn’t matter what he’s using, his moveset is wildly different from those mentioned and they’re isn’t really much to compare other then the fact they use fist.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

40 minutes ago, The DanMan said:

The single player modes are:
>A gutted classic mode (all randomness removed)
>100-man Smash (only form of Multi-Man Smash returning)
>A gutted "All-Star mode" behaving like 100-man Smash
>Grinding for Spirits/a bunch of event matches
>World of Light/an overworld with bot matches and the occasional boss

No real beat-em-up/platformer gameplay; no stage builder; no home run contest or break the targets; no Smash Run; no Special Orders; no Masterpieces; it's the bare minimum they could've done and is reductive compared to Smash 4's overall package (which itself was reductive when compared to Brawl's)-- hell, it's got fewer modes than the 3DS version. The majority of the game is just Event Matches at this point.

Maybe i'm in the minority here but i don't really mind this. Mainly because i always saw the single-player stuff as the cherry on top. Cool but i wouldn't miss it if it's gone. Outside of Classic and All-Star mode, i never spent more than 5 minutes on each mode. 

Honestly, i'm more upset about the removal of trophies and the way online is being handled.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

I actually think the new singe player mode looks fantastic. Would rather play a hundred event matches that provide unique and varied challenges than grinding through half a dozen modes 70+ times to complete it with every character.

1 hour ago, The DanMan said:

 

And here's the kicker; from a combination of 4chan breakdowns and his own personal twitter within the past 24hours, the entire "Grinch leak" has been confirmed to have been done by a guy who knows a guy... who knows MarioTehPlumber (an infamous individual who bought 1,000 Rosalina amiibo... to burn so nobody else could get them), who set it all up so people would hate the game and the actual roster. Meaning the biggest goddamn loser has ended up as the biggest winner out of this shitshow.

 

Fool. That's just donating a bunch of money to Nintendo. Not like they're going to actively stop producing something if it's selling well. Overall, I'd treat the haters as a vocal minority. Just looking at the previous pole here as a sample set, the majority of people had their expectations tempered for exactly how many characters we ended up getting (including Piranha Plant) with the majority of all votes expecting lower.

Also talking about that pole, did the OP just replace the options on the old pole to make this one instead of deleting it and making a new one? Because those votes are all completely out of wack.

Edited by Jotari
Link to comment
Share on other sites

38 minutes ago, NegativeExponents- said:

Bowser, Donkey Kong, Ryu, Ken, and Wii Fit Trainer are slow? Also, Wii Fit Trainer is bulky? You must be joking, right? Surely you don’t mean that. Sure they aren’t Sonic or Captain Falcon but they are far from slow. They all range from middle of the road to faster than average. I think you’re letting their large size fool you into thinking they’re slower than they actually are. The likes of Link and Luigi who seem like they would be pretty agile are slower than these characters.

As for the fist fighting part. Whatever. So he uses fist. Big whoop. The point is it doesn’t matter what he’s using, his moveset is wildly different from those mentioned and they’re isn’t really much to compare other then the fact they use fist.

Sorry; I had just gotten up and I wasn't thinking the list through. I'll edit it. 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

2 minutes ago, Armagon said:

HEY UHHHH

Jump to the 1:58 mark. Robin's Final Smash is still Pair Up. Chrom is still in it. Even though he's his own character now.

Outrealm shenanigans.

Weird. With the number of final smashes they changed, you'd think his would be a priority. On the otherhand, this means "Being in a final smash already" isn't a discounter for a character viability. So I can still keep my fingers crossed for Pig Beast Ganon.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

8 minutes ago, Armagon said:

HEY UHHHH

Jump to the 1:58 mark. Robin's Final Smash is still Pair Up. Chrom is still in it. Even though he's his own character now.

Outrealm shenanigans.

"Hey guys, there's a reason we haven't seen Robin's Final Smash. He must have a new one because Chrom is playable now!"

It turns out that Chrom is playable, but Robin's Final Smash remained the same. Huh.

In other Final Smash news, Peach keeps Peach Blossom (and Daisy likewise has her own version of it), Young Link has Triforce Slash, and Lucario has Aura Storm again (though it Mega Evolves beforehand, like Mewtwo) so it can truly be Goku.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

55 minutes ago, Armagon said:

Jump to the 1:58 mark. Robin's Final Smash is still Pair Up. Chrom is still in it. Even though he's his own character now.

Outrealm shenanigans.

Are those warriors from the Outrealms?!

13 minutes ago, Michelaar said:

Maybe it's different if Chrom is on the battlefield?

This would be cool. Morgan please.

I just can't get over how bad Chrom's model looks, and his recovery seems weak as heck. Poor bastard.

Edited by Thane
Link to comment
Share on other sites

Join the conversation

You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account.

Guest
Reply to this topic...

×   Pasted as rich text.   Paste as plain text instead

  Only 75 emoji are allowed.

×   Your link has been automatically embedded.   Display as a link instead

×   Your previous content has been restored.   Clear editor

×   You cannot paste images directly. Upload or insert images from URL.

 Share

  • Recently Browsing   0 members

    • No registered users viewing this page.
×
×
  • Create New...